do I need small base dies?

I used sharpie to mark up about halfway up this case and you can see where it has rubbed off when I chambered it in my bolt action rifle. The bolt is significantly harder to close on my reloads than on factory ammo. Also, while they all chamber and fire in my rra wylde chamber AR, about 1 in 10 will not manually eject unless you pogo the gun. Are these all symptoms of needing a small base die?

I'm pretty sure the die (lee) is set right. I was having some issues at chambering issues at first (the nech wasn't sizing all the way down), but followed RC's advice and turned the die in further than lee's directions say to get cam over and chambering issues went away.

if I do need a small base die, can I modify my existing lee dies on a belt sander to become small base, or do I need to shop for a different sizing die?

And lastly, if I do buy a small base die, is the X-die really that much better or necessary?

Also, while they all chamber and fire in my rra wylde chamber AR, about 1 in 10 will not manually eject unless you pogo the gun. Are these all symptoms of needing a small base die? If you are sizing properly with the die you have now, perhaps.

can I modify my existing lee dies on a belt sander to become small base,No.

if you grind or use a belt sander on the base of your die to get it farther down the case you will also be pushing the shoulder back farther giveing you way more headspace than you want !! don't do it !:what:

you will also be pushing the shoulder back farther giveing you way more headspace than you want !!Exactly.

have you check headspace ?? you just my have a bad shell holder "too deep" that is not letting the case go in all the way ,

No die modification, check.

I do not have the go/no gauges to check headspace, but I would think that since
1)happens in both guns
2) guns are accurate
3) fired brass does not look odd or require much trimming

that it probably isn't a headspace issue. Doesn't mean I am wrong, but I don't think it's headspace. Also, factory ammo cycles just fine and does not scrape or bind anywhere. My old ar upper never had issues manually cycling ammo. I think it probably had a looser chamber than this current one.

I ment check the lenght of your cases after you size them , do you have any head space ? I'm sure it's not your guns , as you said factory ammo works fine , is the shoulder getting bumped back to sepc? if you have no way to check that , try putting a shim under a case full lenght size it and see if that works, feeler gauges work , or just put some tape on the base and try that , the fact that you said "the bolt closes hard " is why I'm thinking there not getting full lenght sized , as for hanging up in your AR...... .I have heard that you should alway use a small base die for them , I don't , but my AR is in 25wssm

I used sharpie to mark up about halfway up this case and you can see where it has rubbed off when I chambered it in my bolt action rifle. The bolt is significantly harder to close on my reloads than on factory ammo. Also, while they all chamber and fire in my rra wylde chamber AR, about 1 in 10 will not manually eject unless you pogo the gun. Are these all symptoms of needing a small base die?
I highly recommend the use of small base dies in gas guns and highly recommend the use of case gages for all rifles.

By following the instructions of “touch the shell holder plus a quarter turn” you are unlikely to correctly size the case between these marks.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/CartridgeHeadspacegagelinedrawing.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Wilsongagebetweengoandnogage308bras.jpg

I called RCBS and they told me their small base dies size the head .002” more than their standard dies. Lee dies tend to be big, work well with bolt rifles, but here, you are having issues with what is a tight chamber and probably fat/long cartridges.

You cannot convert a standard lee die to a small base die by grinding on the base. I do not recommend doing that if you do not have dies as you may be reducing the case headspace below “GO”.

Cases can only stretch so much, about .006” is the safe limit, stretch cases .006” a couple of times and you will experience case head separations.

These are WSM cases, obviously sized too much for the chamber in which they were fired.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/300WSMCaseHeadSeparation3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/300WSMCaseHeadSeparation1.jpg

I bought an RCBS small base X die in 308 but I still trimmed my brass to 2.0” to get that nice chamfer on the inside of the case, so I put it back on the shelf .

It may be time to try a different brand of die. Few bolt guns should need a small base dies.

Your first photo shows no indication of a over-sized or tight rear of the case issue.

It shows ink rubbed off mostly from the transition from the magazine to the chamber.

What it doesn't show is any ink left on the shoulder of the case, if you colored the shoulder?
If so, the brass isn't being full length sized properly, enough to push the shoulder back where it came from.

That would indicate to me you need to screw your sizing die in another 1/8 turn or so to take all the slack & frame flex out and truly size the case at full ram travel.

rc

I did not color the shoulder. I only went up about half way and it left a ragged transition. Those are actually 2 sides of the same case. I chambered it 2x and it left scraped off spots both times. I also did not feed from the magazine. that was the bolt action bolt closing on a case in the chamber. (push feed gun)

So you are saying this is a bolt action firearm, or an auto loading action such as an AR? If it's a BA you should be just fine with a FL die adjusted properly. Or shim the case head as suggested to make sure you are fully sizing the case, and bumping the shoulder back enough.

I honestly feel by looking at the pics that it is a head space issue with the resizing process, not a SB die need.

You might also try tumbling your brass a little bit, it looks like it has a good deal of residue on it, and could be contributing to the problem. If you could clean a case up that has been resized and reloaded, and then mark the body, neck, and shoulder with a sharpie, do so and then post that picture for us to look at.

GS

It is odd that those "marks" are only spots. If it was tight I would think the marker would be rubbed off the entire circumfrence of the case. I have run into several bolt guns that needed the brass shimmed up .01" or some taken off the bottom of the die in order to bump the shoulder back. Some chambers are on the short side.
Do as Walkalong said and polish up some of those so it is easier to see any fresh rub marks.

“The bolt is significantly harder to close on my reloads than on factory ammo..”

I have small base dies, I do not use them, but just in case I come across a small base chamber, again, I have small base dies.

Small base cases? The M1 Garand had a large base chamber, the ammo used in the M1 was the same ammo used in the 03 Springfield and M1917, the chamber of the M1 had added clearance at the base, about .00025”.

I measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder, I measure the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, if the case is longer than the camber when the bolt is closed closes the case gets a final sizing.

Then there is bullet seating. The seating die does not offer case support, if the die is set to crimp while seating the case can be compressed, squatted, upset or folded, back to measuring the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder, the upset shoulder due to seating while crimping can cause difficulty in bolt closing. All cases must be trimmed to the same length.

I use a blind-end hole micrometer, it was suggested I check a barrel I acquired, it was thought to be an Ackley Improved 30/06, it wasn’t, I measured the base opening, I measured the diameter of 10 different case diameters ahead of the extractor groove, the chamber was correct, the clearance was was built into the case, again, I have small base dies, I do not use them.

Chambers? I cut short chambers, cases that are minimum length (size) will not chamber, they will not allow the bolt to close for two reasons, one the length of the case is too long from the case head to the shoulder of the case and two, the case diameter is larger than the diameter of the chamber. Not a problem, I use a feeler gage to raise the case head above the deck of the shell holder, maximum of .012” with a RCBS shell holder. Then there is the problem with sizing cases that have a greater resistance to sizing than the press, die and shell holder has in ability to overcome the resistance, again, when that happens I can measure the part of the case that did/does not get stuffed into the die, with a feeler gage.

F. Guffey

I did not color the shoulder.Well then, color the shoulder and see if it's the shoulder that is too tight to chamber.

I'm betting it is!

rc

Just spend a few bucks and buy a Wilson or similar case gage, for setting up your sizing die. I've loaded thousands of rounds for my ARs, one which does have the Wylde chamber, the others with 5.56 chambers. I've never needed a small base die, and you probably don't, either.

You're not bumping the shoulder properly. Get the case gage. This ain't rocket science. It's really pretty simple stuff.

Just spend a few bucks and buy a Wilson or similar case gage, for setting up your sizing dieYep, it's the best way to set up a sizer for an auto.

Easy as pie.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102986&d=1249740262

Colored the whole case, only some area down at the bottom rubbed. This particular round cycled fine through the AR, but took effort to close the bolt on in the bolt action gun.

I don't find 'drop in' case gauges to be very useful, all they do is suggest your ammo will work in any chamber properly made for that cartridge but that doesn't mean a thing for precise fit in YOUR chamber. IF you make your cases fit in YOUR chamber you've done what needs to be done.

Unless you're getting a hard circle rubbed all the way around the cases just above the head after a single chambering you really don't need a small base die.

I find the fresh metal gouge marks near the head puzzling. That's much more than a rub, you just may have a badly buggered chamber.

Very few of us even want to own an X die so they certainly aren't a necessity and may not be a lot of 'help'.

How does any of us know what "very many of us" might want to own?? It's befuddling. :eek:

"How does any of us know what "very many of us" might want to own?? It's befuddling."

I have known maybe 40 - 50 active reloaders fairly well over the years. Perhaps four or five have owned x dies and they only had one of them but what does it matter what others do? Don't be a follower or befuddled, if YOU want one, get it. Or get twenty. ??

slight difficulty closing th bolt on a bolt gun is ideal. Your brass will last a good long time. Neck-sized brass should do this. Put a layer of masking tape behind an auto loading round and make sure it chambers w/o using the forward assist. It should fail to chamber with 3-4 layers.

Colored the whole case, only some area down at the bottom rubbed. This particular round cycled fine through the AR, but took effort to close the bolt on in the bolt action gun.


That's because your sizer die is not pushing the shoulder back far enough. Your AR has s looser chamber than your bolt gun. Take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him adjust your headspace. He may fo it by lapping in your lugs and that will give you sbout .001-.002" of additional headspace.

I used sharpie to mark up about halfway up this case and you can see where it has rubbed off when I chambered it in my bolt action rifle. The bolt is significantly harder to close on my reloads than on factory ammo. Also, while they all chamber and fire in my rra wylde chamber AR, about 1 in 10 will not manually eject unless you pogo the gun. Are these all symptoms of needing a small base die?


What is the source of the fired cases?

In my opinion, there are so many different 223 Rem/5.56 NATO chambers out there that the standards are not really being met in all cases. Mixing cases between firearms might cause problems.

I have two 223 Rem ARs. A case fired in rifle "A", then resized in die "Y" will not chamber in rifle "B".

But a case fired in Rifle "B", and resized in die "Y" will chamber in rifle "B".

The problem, in my case, is the body of the case is not being resized enough in the particular resize die "Y".

Apparently, there are an accumulation of tolerances that prevents the cases from chambering. A different resizing die or a small base die may solve your problem.

Just something else to consider.

Also, remember with drop in case gauges for bottle neck cartridges. They only measure the shoulder position and the over all length. The gauges are cut generously in the body area. Check the specifications from the manufacturers.

In the above examples, all cases would gauge properly in a Dillon 223 Remington case gauge.

^^^^++
I helped a freind reload for his new .243.I let him use my dies that I had for years+ I had about 50 cases that were fired in my VLS.He had boughten 2 boxes of factory to sight in and such so he had that brass also. We could use his brass and it would chamber, but my brass could not be sized down to fit his gun.I even shimmed a couple cases and had the die physically hitting the shellholder and they would not chamber. His chamber is short and he is only reloading new brass or ones that were fired in that gun. that is a Savage Axis, I've read of other doing the same.

I've had three Savage chambers that were so tight I had to readjust my size die to cam over hard to fit the chambers. My Remington's, Winchesters, and Rugers have never had that issue.

Lee does not make small base dies. If your sized brass will not chamber, Lee will make you a custom die from 3 fired brass, no charge. Check here at Lee FAQ> http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support Small Base dies
Posted by on 20 October 2011 08:03 AM
If you have the Lee PaceSetter die set with a full length-sizing die, you shouldn't need a small base die. Other manufacturers make small base dies on the premise that semi-autos require cases sized to the minimum allowable case dimension for reliable feeding, but in reality most semi-autos have chambers cut on the large side for that same purpose. The result is overworked brass and shortened case life. If you have any chambering problems with ammunition that has been sized with a Lee full length sizing die, return the die and a couple fired cases to the factory for free adjustment.

Our address is:

Lee Precision Inc,
4275 Hwy. U,
Hartford, WI 53027

I made the switch from Hornady dies to RCBS small base dies in .223. It has made a big difference in autoloading rifles, specifically a few ARs. I can't even remember the last time I took the Hornady dies out of the box. If I had to reload for a bolt gun chambered in .223, I would probably give the Hornady dies another chance.

243, thanks for the heads up about lee. I've found that their warranty on paper is pretty lame, but they will treat you right if you give them a call.

"I've had three Savage chambers that were so tight I had to readjust my size die to cam over hard to fit the chambers"



And you and everyone else believes adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn of the die or an additional 1/2 turn or by some wild guestimate of a turn allows you to size your cases and reduce the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder. Then there is cam over, I have 4 Rock Chuckers by RCBS, not one of them will cam over, they jam over, cram over, bind over or lock up, they do not cam over. I have presses that cam-over, adjusting the cam-over press is not adjusted like the non cam-over presses.



Tiny-tight chambers, I sent a Winchester Model 70 back to Winchester, it had the ugliest chamber I have ever seen, sizing cases for that chamber after firing required tools that included a lathe, and collets. I ask Winchester for Winchester dies for their Winchester chamber, or I wanted a Winchester chamber that fit my RCBS dies, or Lyman dies, or Herter's dies etc.. Anyhow, We had words.



F. Guffey

I have a Rock Chucker and a Lyman All American that I have never used and a Dillon 550 that I am enjoying but my favorite so far and which cams over just right with all my RCBS dies is the well used RCBS Jr. 3 that I started with in 1998. It has been all I could ever ask for in a single stage press and following RCBS's on phone instructions on camming over a little harder has fit every snug chamber I have come up against so far.

Has Winchester begun working toward a solution for you yet?

"Has Winchester begun working toward a solution for you yet?' There remedy, hone, polish and or ream the chamber. Problem: The chamber is ugly, to large in diameter and the distance from the bolt face to the shoulder is is/was excessive, again, I went to their warranty shop, the smith said the chamber was ugly, too large in diameter and too long from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber AND!!!! they were not able to clean the chamber by honing, polishing and or reaming and I them I ask for them to explain how polishing, honing and reaming was going to make the chamber smaller, after the smith at the local shop reamed, honed and polished the chamber was larger than when I took it in because he removed the gouges, I took fired cases to him with the rifle, he could not measure the chamber and or cases to determine the effect the chamber had on the cases when fired, and they thought I was difficult.



The warranty shop sent the rifle back to Winchester, they returned the rifle to me in a new box without an explanation, same serial number, I have no interest in determining what they did to correct the problem, I have not shot the rifle since it was returned 4 years ago, finding something else to shoot is not a problem.



I understand "RCBS's on phone instructions on camming over a little harder has fit every snug chamber I have come up against so far" Back to the part where it is not fair, I can not increase the ability of a die to size a case shorter than minimum length/full length size, once the die contacts the shell holder the distance from the deck if the shell holder to the shoulder in the die can not be reduced, it is not possible to increase the dies ability to reduce the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case.



Screwing the die down an additional 1 turn or 1/2 turn increases the ability of the press to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing back to minimum length/full length sizing. The dies ability to size is predetermined by the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die.



I have cam-over presses, I have a RCBS 11, I purchases a tunk full of cases in their original boxes, 2,200 cases in all, after paying for the trunk the seller gave me a RCBS case trimmer with a #1 collet, then he gave me a RCBS 11 press with the explanation, there was not enough room in the trunk for the two pieces.



F. Guffey