[AllThrtl]

These are part of my first newbie loads, I'm trying to work up a 45acp plinking load and I'm getting this damage only with the last round of the magazine. All other rounds seem to cycle and shoot fine and the slide locks back on the final round. These rounds actually ejected, but not with the same velocity as the others. The gun is a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911, factory 7 round mags and the gun has about 500-600 rounds of factory ammo thru it with absolutely no problems. Here's the load data..

Federal brass
Federal 150 primers
Missouri Bullet #1 Bullseye 200g SWC
1.25" OAL with about .025 shoulder above the case mouth
Bullseye 3.8g 4g & 5g (the rounds in the picture are not in this order, these are just 3 that I kept)

Any ideas?

[jr_roosa]

That looks like what happens when cases get slammed in the ejection port or barrel hood when the slide is closing, but that shouldn't happen with slide lock. They also usually cause a jam.

The last round in all my auto loaders ejects differently. There's no bullet at the top of the mag to give it a little extra kick and the bounce off of a locked slide is different than off a slide returning to battery.

Are you sure those are both from your gun and the last rounds? I wonder if they were from the last guy's jams that he cleared and left behind in the bay?

If you are sure they are, then I'm at a loss.

J.

[AllThrtl]

I'm 100% that the two on the left are mine, the other one looks like mine but I can't be sure. The first two kind of popped up and landed on the table. Yesterday, with a different load, 4.9g and 5.5g with OAL of 1.235, I had the same thing, but one did jam in the slide. Next weekend I'll load up some more and watch for this specifically, I noticed these almost after the fact. I must be missing something. I'm otherwise happy with the load, although it does scorch the case a little. I also have a can of Titegroup and 231 to try....

[243winxb]

the gun has about 500-600 rounds of factory ammo thru it with absolutely no problems. The 3.8 & 4 gr loads may need a different, lighter recoil spring. Next time you test, take note if all loads do it , or only the light loads.

[1911Tuner]

The extractor is clocking and dropping the last round. More tension may help...or not. Fitting an oversized firing pin stop is the only real cure, and that assumes that the extractor channel isn't mislocated too far to the right. If it is, the slide is bad.

[AllThrtl]

I've had zero problems with factory loads, so I will do more testing...

[918v]

I would capture the brass by shooting the gun off a benchrest with a file box to the right of the ejection port. Also, the 3.8 grain load is too weak for an 18.5lb recoil spring. Get a lighter one. To me it seems the barrel hood is denting the brass because the slide velocity is too low. But capture your brass and know it's yours.

[joshf128]

I have experienced the exact same thing with my RIA Tactical and 5.2gr Unique with 200gr LSWC. I only have the problem with Wilson Combat 47D Mags. The feed lips on those magazines seem to be slightly narrower at the back (primer end). For me, the case was able to enter the feed lips while the last round was trying to eject but would then get stuck when it narrowed and the slide would jam into the front of the case causing that damage.

I have some ACT mags that have perfectly straight feed lips and they don't have the same problem, so I mainly use those for range duty and save my Wilsons for my HD loads in the nightstand.

[hentown]

I don't see how it's possible to have sharp cuts, not dents, in the case mouths, unless, as noted above, the case jams against the barrel hood.

[cfullgraf]

The only time that I have experienced tears, not dents, in the case mouth was when the slide caught the case as the slide was closing. The slide would jam the case against something on the barrel. A stoppage of the pistol requiring clearing may or may not occur.

Therefore, it would not happen on the last round in a magazine as long as the slide locks back reliably.

But, I will defer to the expertise of 1911Tuner.

[Walkalong]

1911Tuner is almost certainly right about the extractor and the FPS, but the load is also weak enough to cause brass to be caught and damaged. A quick "fix" until you do anything else may be as simple as more powder, or a lighter (16 lb) spring.

[AllThrtl]

Thanks guys, hopefully I'll get more loads worked up this week and get back to the range Monday and hopefully get to the bottom of the issue...

[918v]

Therefore, it would not happen on the last round in a magazine as long as the slide locks back reliably.

The last case ejecting from a semi auto is different than the others because it foes not get that extra pop up from the fresh round feeding from the mag. So it is more likely to remain in the ejection port if the slide dynamics permit it. Then the breechface pushes the case against the barrel hood.

But that would only happen if the load is too weak to lock thr slide on the last shot.

Is it?

[noylj]

Unless you mark your cases, you can't be sure they are yours.
Unless you pick up each case after firing, you can't know what the order was.
If they all ejected and didn't jam, the load is fine.
Your cases show the classic look of a case jam in the ejection port. When I case is dented that deep, it does not eject and you have a jam.
Otherwise, you are in the Twilight Zone and your gun has an evil spirit...

[Otto]

....I'm getting this damage only with the last round of the magazine. All other rounds seem to cycle and shoot fine and the slide locks back on the final round.
The last casing is slipping down off the extractor, whereas the other casings were supported by the rounds in the magazine.
Your cases are being dinged by the top of the barrel hood.
Google/Youtube "1911 extractor tension". You may need to increase the tension.
Also, make sure the ejector is tight in the frame since Springfield glues them in.


http://greatmouseguru.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/10-5-11-malf-004-modified.jpg

[1911Tuner]

What is happening is that the case is being dropped off the breechface from the clocking extractor...but not so far that it escapes the claw. It gets dragged partway back into the magazine, depressing the follower and preventing slide lock. The slide runs forward and tries to feed the case, and it gets crushed between the breechface and the barrel hood.

And, yes. Sometimes the slide somehow manages to lock with the case jammed up.

The extractor is clocking. More tension may help...and it may not. An oversized firing pin stop will keep it squared up.

[whtsmoke]

take a sharpie one of the fat ones and mark the bottom of your case then when you pick them up you will know if they are yours or not.

[cfullgraf]

http://greatmouseguru.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/10-5-11-malf-004-modified.jpg

I could see, based on Otto's pix and 1911Tuner's description, that the case gets caught on the magazine on extraction, the case mouth gets dinged, then the case gets spit out of the gun while the slide continues rearward and locks.

The choreograph would have to be just right. Change anything and the timing would change.

[Otto]

A bit of advice, rather than throwing parts at the problem (new firing pin stops, extractors, recoil springs, etc.) contact Springfield, request a return shipping label and send it back to the mother ship. That way the gun is professionally evaluated and it will cost you nothing.

[243winxb]

the gun has about 500-600 rounds of factory ammo thru it with absolutely no problems. Its not the firearm, its the ammo.:)

[Otto]

So what? Is he only suppose to shoot factory from now on?

[Walkalong]

No, better reloads, for starters.

And then...

An oversized firing pin stop will keep it squared up.

http://www.egwguns.com/firing-pin-stops/

[AllThrtl]

Yeah, I really don't believe it's a gun issue, the gun has performed flawlessly with factory ammo. However, I am a new reloader and this started with my first couple batches of test loads. Unfortunately, I was paying more attention to how the rounds were performing down range rather than the spent brass. The gun seemed to be cycling fine so wasn't paying attention to that aspect, now I know better. It was only the second to last magazine that I noticed the spent brass pop up and land on the table, it was the last round in the mag and the slide stayed open (4g). I then loaded up the last 5 rounds, watching the brass and it was the last one that acted up (5g). I then proceeded to shoot the remainder of a box of factory federal loads (30-40rds) without any further issue. I feel sure it was the reloads not the gun. However, I am planning to pick up a lighter recoil spring and run more tests with this setup on monday, as well as trying heavier loads with the stock spring. I will go ahead and check out the extractor when I clean the gun tonight, just to be sure. Thanks guys...

[mr16ga]

What kind of powder are you using? You may have a very very light load.

[Oscar Orum]

All, please listen to Tuner. He does know of what he speaks.

[orrwdd]

Besides, an oversized firing pin stop will not hurt, it can only help reliable ejection.

[AllThrtl]

Ok, here's where I'm at. I was at the range Monday, with the same 200gn LSWC, brass and primers, I loaded up 10 each of 4.0gn, 4.5gn, 5.0gn, 5.5gn and 6.0gn of Bullseye. Lyman 49th recommends starting with 4.9 and a max of 6.0 when using Bullseye.

I cleared all the leftover brass from around my shooting area. Then shot 5 of each load from the benchrest, paying particular attention to #5 round with each load. At 4.0gn, no jam. 4.5,5.0,5.5 each jammed on the #5 round, see pics, and the slide locked back each time. 6.0gn did eject but with a smaller amount of case damage. I then swapped mags, ran the same test, no jams and the only case damage was on the #5 round of the 6.0gn load and it had very small nick on the case mouth.

I then did the same test with a box of Federal Champion 230gn FMJ, equal shots between the mags, no FTE or case damage.

It would lead me to believe it is a magazine issue, but why only on reloads? That doesn't make sense. I understand what 1911Tuner is saying about the extractor and FPS, but why only with reloads?

I appreciate the input...

[243winxb]

My very old Lyman data lists 4.8 gr as maximum with 200 gr cast lswc. More powder would increase/change the slide speed/timing. A magazine that feeds differently than another would make a difference. Does the Mil-Spec 1911 have the enlarged/opened ejection port like target guns?

[Snobal]

All this is new to me being mostly a revolver shooter.

However, when I first started shooting a 3 1/2" Citadel .45 acp, it was smashing cases like the op's gun.

Our local gunsmith suggested that the Citadel's recoil spring was either too light or too heavy for my target loads of 3.8 grains of bullseye powder with a 200 grain, cast, SWC bullet.

I installed a new, 24 lb recoil spring (which according to some internet info was the proper weight of a stock recoil spring for a 3 1/2" 1911) and that gun has shot perfectly since (only about 1,500 rounds so far).

My 5" Range Officer "ate" a case last week (just like the op's is doing) and today I'm waiting for delivery of a new, stock powder recoil spring (16 lbs).
This RO now has about 2,150 rounds through it by my records so per some of the internet "experts," it is due for a new recoil spring.

If the new recoil spring does not "fix" the problem, I'll attempt to adjust the extractor per the suggestions given on this thread.

Thanks everyone!

JMHO - YRMV

[thump_rrr]

Do this simple test and report back to us.
Remove the slide from the frame.
Insert an empty cartridge under the extractor and shake the slide.
At this point you should only have a slide in your hand and not an assembled firearm.
No matter how firmly you shake the slide you should not be able to shake the case out.
If this is the case then insert a loaded round and shake. The cartridge should fall out with a firm shake otherwise there is too much tension on the extractor.

If the empty case falls out or doesn't even hold try adjusting the extractor for a little more tension.
This cured the problem on my Springfield.

An oversized firing pin stop will cure the extractor clocking but isn't always necessary to cure the problem and requires hand fitting which you may or may not want to do yourself.

[Snobal]

thump_rrr -

Don't know if you were responding to me....

....but I tried what you suggested.

One at a time, I tried three different sized, belled, primed Federal cases with no powder nor bullet and had to shake hard for a few seconds to eventually get each one them to shake loose.

Three cases with bullets and powder were easy to shake out if the slide was upside down (they easily fell out of the ejection port), but it took a couple of shakes to get them to fall out if the slide was right-side up (they were more difficult to shake out toward the magazine-side of the slide).

Per other posts, it appears to me that my extractor is adjusted fairly close to normal specifications.

By the way, the new recoil spring that I ordered came this afternoon and I just installed it. It is "stock" weight but feels much heavier than the original spring after over 2000 rounds. I'll do an ops test in the morning.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.

JMHO - YRMV

[AllThrtl]

I also checked my extractor tonight, it was slightly loose so I tightened it just a tad. The FPS is pretty sloppy so I'll order a new one in the morning after more research on fitting it. Today I also received a 16lb recoil spring. It is probably 1 1/2" longer than the stock spring and seems much heavier. I'll see how these changes work this weekend and again when I get the new FPS installed. Thanks guys...

[thump_rrr]

thump_rrr -

Don't know if you were responding to me....

....but I tried what you suggested.

One at a time, I tried three different sized, belled, primed Federal cases with no powder nor bullet and had to shake hard for a few seconds to eventually get each one them to shake loose.

Three cases with bullets and powder were easy to shake out if the slide was upside down (they easily fell out of the ejection port), but it took a couple of shakes to get them to fall out if the slide was right-side up (they were more difficult to shake out toward the magazine-side of the slide).

Per other posts, it appears to me that my extractor is adjusted fairly close to normal specifications.

By the way, the new recoil spring that I ordered came this afternoon and I just installed it. It is "stock" weight but feels much heavier than the original spring after over 2000 rounds. I'll do an ops test in the morning.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.

JMHO - YRMV
It sounds like the extractor is a little loose.
I'd tighten it a little and see if this improves things.
You can search the net to find how to do this.
It literally takes 5 minutes to do.

[Snobal]

thump rrr and 1911Tuner -

Thank You!

The new stock spring was about 1" longer than the old spring. Now my "old" RO (the one I'm shooting at Bullseye Matches) feels like my new RO (my "backup gun). It was time to change the recoil spring. However, it did not fix the problem.

I installed the new spring last night and fired 30 rounds this am. One case hung up on the magazine, one fell on the bench, and one dropped at my feet.

After bending the extractor per internet directions (I used pliers and wrapped the extractor in heavy leather), my first try was too tight. I got out my new RO and compared it to the RO I'm using for Bullseye matches and bent the extractor to hold loaded cases as tightly in the old RO as the New RO holds them.

This pm, I fired 30 more rounds of 200 grain, cast, RCBS 45-201-SWC with 3.8 grains of Bullseye and all 30 rounds stacked in a neat pile centered about 5' to my right and behind the firing line.

All 30 cases were recovered with no dings or dents.

Big Grin!

Thanks again!

JMHO - YRMV

[AllThrtl]

UPDATE....

Fitted a new EGW FPS, with a small radius as 1911Tuner recommends, ditched the Springfield ILS MSH for an Ed Brown with a new 23lb spring to go with the 16lb recoil spring and snugged up the extractor just a tad. The old FPS was .466 wide and .096 thick as compared to the new fitted FPS at .479 and .099, IIRC, so the old one was a little sloppy.

I already loved the gun, except for the recent issues, but now I REALLY love the gun. I suppose the recoil is less, it never was an issue before so I'd have to shoot it back to back to compare, but the muzzle rise is much reduced and repeat shots are much faster...good luck finding another mod that makes this much difference for under $100 total...

However... My issue with the crushed cases is much better, but not completely cured. Out of 75rds (25 shot 1 at a time) of my previous load, 5gn Bullseye and 200gn LSWC, I had 3 crushed cases, all 3 ejected without being stuck in the magazine lips. This time it didn't mater which magazine I used. I also shot 50rds of factory Federal (25 shot 1 at a time) and I did notice similar damage to 1 of those cases.

So far I think the FPS cured the clocking issue, but the gun still isn't crazy about lighter loads. I wonder if I should replace the extractor next? 1911Tuner?

FYI, I read a ton of info that 1911Tuner has posted on m1911 forums, amazing....

[poco loco]

I asked you about it a ways back, but iirc, I never had pictures....

Same situation only my Springfield MilSpec only does it with milsurp 45 ammo. All the different handloads I regularly use do not cause the problem....It isnt the last round of a mag, mine will randomly crimp sometimes 3-4 out of a mag.

All eject fine and cycle the next round but they look like they get crammed into the ejection port causing serious case damage.....

To me the odd part is it only happens with milsurp hardball....not my cast ball or either of the wadcutters I use.

So far my fix has been to pack up the rest of the milsurp and only shoot handloads.....Factory SuperMatch and Targetmaster wadcutters function perfectly also, I have never shot factory hardball out of it so I dont know on that.

[1911Tuner]

If the extractor has stopped clocking and you've still got ejection issues with light loads...either bump up your powder charge or drop to a 14-pound recoil spring.

FWIW...For some of my ammo, I use 4.0 grains Bullseye with the RCBS 201...always a 14 pound recoil spring/23 pound mainspring and the small radius stop...and my pistols eject fine. Don't know what difference 2/10ths of a grain could make. *shrug*

Also FWIW...The original recoil spring that Browning and Colt's Dream Team settled on was never 16 pounds. At full slide travel...as installed in the gun...it averaged about 13.5 pounds.

[AllThrtl]

Thanks for the help, I'll give that a shot...

[Snobal]

Second trip to the range since the last post.

120 rounds with RCBS 201 and 3.8 grains of Bullseye, 119 of 120 into a nice pile a few feet to my right, and behind the firing line.

One round of 120 bounced off the baffles between the firing stations during a match and somehow fell in front of the firing line.

All 120 rounds with no damage to the case mouths.

I'll put another 1,000 rounds through it with this new stock recoil spring and see what happens.:)

Big grin!:D

Thanks again for the tip on adjusting the extractor!

JMHO - YRMV