Carbon 15


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ping
September 20, 2012, 06:34 PM
A friend of mine was looking at AR's and asked me a question i could not answer. he was looking at the bushmaster model 90689 carbon 15. i know nothing about the carbon piece of this. what are they talking about. i only buy rock river and i am very conservative. i like the basic A2, anyway what does the carbon comment mean. is it something i should tell my friend to stay away from. they seem pretty cheap - maybe to cheap. so many manufacturers of AR stuff now. i pretty much stay with armalite, bushmaster, colt, dpms and rock river.

anyway any info on this would be great.

thanks

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ford8nr
September 20, 2012, 06:39 PM
As far as I know the 'carbon' refers to the lower, it is made up of a 'carbon composite' ( high tech plastic ). I've read varing reviews. For the same money look at the MP15 Sport, I just bought one for $599. My early review of it is in a post earlier this week titled of all things MP15 Sport. My early tests of the sport have been very good and others who actually own or have shot them concure.

silicosys4
September 20, 2012, 07:04 PM
I have shot the "carbon" ar-15 and wasn't impressed. It is indeed a polymer lower, and polymer upper receiver. It was light, but "flexy", had multiple FTF issues, felt rough when disassembled, with mold marks still left from manufacturing, and overall didn't give a good impression of itself.

meanmrmustard
September 20, 2012, 07:21 PM
You're MUCH better off forgetting that rifle exists.

If a well made rifle that doesn't hurt the wallet is your goal, M&P Sport. Or, like you already own, a RRA. The Carbon is a nice thought, but lacking.

MarshallDodge
September 20, 2012, 07:22 PM
What meanmrmustard said.

Captcurt
September 20, 2012, 07:22 PM
I have shot the "carbon" ar-15 and wasn't impressed. It is indeed a polymer lower, and polymer upper receiver. It was light, but "flexy", had multiple FTF issues, felt rough when disassembled, with mold marks still left from manufacturing, and overall didn't give a good impression of itself.
Didn't impress me either. Ordered one for a friends daugther. Needed some major trigger work and wasn't even close to the quality of a DPMS. I am with the OP on the Rock River and Colt for first pick, but would like to try a Windham before I got serious.

au01st
September 20, 2012, 07:22 PM
I had one. Loved it. Light and worked flawlessly with steel cased ammo at my range. I sold it because I needed to come up with some money to relocate for a job, but I wouldn't hesitate to get another.

Trent
September 21, 2012, 09:33 AM
I had the pistol version blow up on me. :(

Cornhusker77
September 21, 2012, 10:41 AM
We've had one for 3 or 4 years
It's OK, works well, but I prefer my Windham

ping
September 21, 2012, 11:51 AM
Ok, I now understand. cool - thanks all for info. I think I will just stay with what I know for my friend.

jim243
September 21, 2012, 01:31 PM
anyway any info on this would be great.

Like all new firearms today, different materials are being used than what we are use to. The Glock is what 40 years old now and it was one of the first poly handguns out. Now almost all handguns have parts made of polimers. Hard to beat the lower cost due to the use of polimers. Let's see, your boat is made of carbon fiber, your laptop is made with a carbon fiber shell, even your car/truck/ATV/cell phone are all carbon fiber.

Bushmaster thought it would try out an AR made with a carbon fiber upper and lower. The hand guards and butt stocks have always been of carbon fiber since the 1960's. FNH-USA (ACR & FNAR), SCAR, FNA PS-90, FNA 2000 are all made of carbon fiber as well as new stripped lowers that are coming out as carbon fiber. They are lighter and keeps the cost of manufacturing down so we can afford to keep buying new products and guns.

The people from Windham Weaponry built mine before Remington fired them all and moved their operations to save money. These are the people that made up the old Bushmaster company. Reguardless of what you may have thought of Bushmaster, they made a quality product that was accurate and affordable with good customer service.

The Bushmaster AR C-15 Ultralite has the same metal parts as anyother AR with the exception of the upper and lower receiver, otherwise it is the same as anyother A4 carbine.

Will it last? I do not know, but after 1,000 rounds mine functions perfectly without any problems. I do not use crap ammo it, I reload my own and feel most problems are ammo or magazine related that are posted on the forums.

To make a long story short, in Dec, I was looking to buy a new handgun and came across the rifle on sale at Cabela's, the last one in stock. At $599.00 for a AR carbine I could not pass it up, my intention was to have a winter project gun that I could change and dress up.

Well it is now my favorite and HD/SD gun of choice (I do have others for that purpose). I have changed out the pistol grip (Now a Houghe), the butt stock (Now a MOE) and have added a few extras on it (quad rail, forward grip, bipoid and flash light holder) otherwise it is still stock.

It seems that trying something new is allways hard to do, but sometimes it is the best thing you can do. Will the shooting public warm up to carbon fiber AR's?? I don't know but I am sold, at 5.6 lbs and a price point you can not beat it sold me.

Let us not forget that that car or truck you are driving is 60% carbon fiber as well. Will I get better gas milage from my C-15, I sure get more fun.

Jim

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0630.jpg

Here is another carbon fiber gun, just one I can not afford

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/MSARbullpup.jpg

dom1104
September 21, 2012, 01:35 PM
You dont really know what "Carbon Fiber" is do you jim243?

:)

silicosys4
September 21, 2012, 02:19 PM
"carbon fiber" is a sheet of woven fibers of carbon. It can be thought of as very similar to fiberglass, except it is much more difficult to cure properly. It comes in flexible sheets, like fiberglass matting, and It is impregnated with resin and molded, exactly like fiberglass, and yields a very light, very stiff, very high strength product used extensively in very expensive boats and cars, primarily, where saving a few extra pounds over fiberglass and gaining a little extra strength is worth tripling your material cost and manufacturing costs.

http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/image/cache/data/carbon-fiber-sheets/0134-carbon-fiber-sheets/plain-weave-carbon-fiber-sheet-500x500.jpg

http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/image/cache/data/carbon-fiber/carbon-fiber-fabric/2x2twillroll-228x228.gif

Whereupon the carbon 15, most "polymer" lowers, and almost every "car part" that was mentioned by jim 243 is actually a molded blend of plastics or polymers, with fibrous fillers like glass fibers or carbon fibers added to strengthen the plastic, then is injected as a liquid into a solid mold.

Very nice pictures, Jim...just had to correct you on that

jim243
September 21, 2012, 03:34 PM
Whereupon the carbon 15, most "polymer" lowers, and almost every "car part" that was mentioned by jim 243 is actually a molded blend of plastics or polymers, with fibrous fillers like glass fibers or carbon fibers added to strengthen the plastic, then is injected as a liquid into a solid mold.

Very nice pictures, Jim...just had to correct you on that


Not a problem, Silicosys4, I would rather have a carbon fiber than most of the MIM uppers and lowers on the market today. Very few gun makers still do parts from solid blocks of metal, the CNC process is time consuming and expensive in labor, equipment and tooling. I am more concerned with how the barrel and chamber is made than the stock. The only concern I have with the C-15 is how the upper receiver will hold up, but is easy to replace if needed and not that expensive.

The bolt and bolt carrier group would be another concern, but seems well made and functional on the C-15 (all metal parts). The fit of the carbon fiber upper and lower at least on my rifle was/is much better than I have had on many metal AR's.

If someone want's to spend $1,500 or more on a all metal milled AR, good luck to them I don't since I use mine for fun and not war or zombies (insult intended). (LOL)

The real question is will they hold up and last?? So far so good. I still carry a side arm just in case. The original C-15's made by a different company did not, but after 10 years of research and development and Bushmaster taking over the mfg, I have faith in mine.

Good shooting to all.
Jim

gotboostvr
September 21, 2012, 03:38 PM
Another thing Jim forgot to mention is that your car, boat, plane and Glock where designed from the ground up to utilize various polymers. AR's were designed with metal recievers, changing them later seems like an after thought. AUGs have metal where they need them, holding the trigger groups togther, barrel extensions... I wouldn't want to have to screw a metal reciever extension into a plastic lower, way too easy to strip, and too fragile an area for a plastic.

jim243
September 21, 2012, 05:21 PM
where designed from the ground up to utilize various polymers

This is an interesting descussion. I was just looking around the room, and guess what?
The keyboard this is being typed on, my 32 inch TV, all the remote controls for the TV and recorders, the gateway that the ISP gave us, the monitor, printer, mouse, head set, X-Box and controllers, calculator, pill boxes, tape dispenser, CD's,& VHS's, storage bins, watch, pens, paper shredder, scanner, cigarette lighters, safety hard hat, tool boxes, rifle cleaning kits, my desk chair, waste basket, flash lights, the brand new dish washer we just got, my expensive camera, stocks for my hunting rifles, etc...... are all made from polimers (plastics or one kind or other.) And let's not forget my 12 fishing rods (Yes, they are carbon fiber).

But a plastic AR, heaven forbid. I think we are being a little old fashion on this.

Jim

meanmrmustard
September 21, 2012, 06:12 PM
If someone want's to spend $1,500 or more on a all metal milled AR, good luck to them I don't since I use mine for fun and not war or zombies (insult intended). (LOL)


Laugh it up. Fortune favors the prepared.

Whether its a walking corpse or a desperate undesirable during a socioeconomic collapse, best to be ready!

jim243
September 21, 2012, 06:47 PM
Laugh it up. Fortune favors the prepared.

Whether its a walking corpse or a desperate undesirable during a socioeconomic collapse, best to be ready!


Sorry mustard, I didn't know you were a preper. But with over 20 guns in the house and over 25,000 rounds of ammo, my concern would be food and water for the family, not imaginary zombies, besides they can have all the courpses they want lying at my front door (or back door) dead.

My concern would be Yellowstone going off, it does that every 600,000 years or so and it has been 630,000 years since the last time. (we are overdue) The ash will make it imposible to get around and the acid rain will kill every living thing.

An AR or AK will not help you with this.
Jim

silicosys4
September 21, 2012, 06:53 PM
Jim243, I am glad that you have had excellent luck with your gun, and I won't deny that polymers can and do successfully replace many formerly metal items. I would even say that with the right manufacturing and design, a company could make a very good polymer AR-15. One problem so far is to this date, polymers have been a cost cutting addition to the AR-15 family, instead of a benefit or improvement, but with the right engineering and maybe some modifications to account for the flexibility of polymers, etc.. I'm sure you could come up with something very reliable. However, I am not a big fan of polymer guns in general, and I could show you why in 3 minutes with a coarse metal file and a hacksaw. Where I'd destroy the finish on most steel guns, I'd destroy a polymer frame. Polymer just isn't a long term, hell or highwater solution for a serious, you-life-depends-on-it rifle. Steel guns IMO are more durable, and more suited for duty guns.

meanmrmustard
September 21, 2012, 07:09 PM
Sorry mustard, I didn't know you were a preper. But with over 20 guns in the house and over 25,000 rounds of ammo, my concern would be food and water for the family, not imaginary zombies, besides they can have all the courpses they want lying at my front door (or back door) dead.

My concern would be Yellowstone going off, it does that every 600,000 years or so and it has been 630,000 years since the last time. (we are overdue) The ash will make it imposible to get around and the acid rain will kill every living thing.

An AR or AK will not help you with this.
Jim
If it does, I'll come help you bro. Especially if primeval Zombies or released.

Seriously though, weird crap happens.

jim243
September 21, 2012, 07:22 PM
Seriously though, weird crap happens.

True. Just look at New England last year where all the bridges were washed away and they were trapped for months.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-blogs/weathermatrix/extreme-flooding-in-new-england-from-hurricane-irene/54403

Good luck and thanks for the offer of help, I'll keep a spot open for you on the zombie range. (LOL)

Jim

Fremmer
September 21, 2012, 07:26 PM
Mustard is right, my sources indicate an increasing chance of a very serious zombie uprising in early november.

jim243
September 21, 2012, 07:52 PM
Polymer just isn't a long term, hell or highwater solution for a serious, you-life-depends-on-it rifle. Steel guns IMO are more durable, and more suited for duty guns.

I agree with you, but there is not any part of the rifle I can't replace by myself. (nice thing about the AR's) And the parts are not that expensive.

The only example I can give is I am a heavy smorker (I know not good) and would only buy Zippo lighters. Well a good Zippo is about $30.00 or more now and I am using the 99 cent cheap plastic ones. You can get a lot of use from a 99 cent lighter. I think they stopped the $10.00 chinese kockoff ones from comming into the US. (besides they didn't work all that well)

I bought this rifle as a project gun, so my expectations were not that high to start with. I have spent a lot more for handguns and other AR's, so I was pleasently supprised as to how it performed and the value it is for an inexpensive AR. With prices keep going up and up, it is a good alternitive for the first time AR buyer (So is the M&P 15) as long as they realize that it will not last forever.

Jim

Quentin
September 21, 2012, 08:05 PM
I'd go with a quality AR with 7075-T6 receivers instead of taking a chance with a Carbon 15. If you compare the difference in weight it's not that much plus the extra weight is close to your body so less of a factor than if it were hanging off the muzzle.

I weighed a friend's C15 and my AR and here are the results:

#1 - Bushmaster Carbon-15
Carbon 14.5" M4 carbine length upper with BM AR-15 BCG, charging handle, integrated rear sight and standard hanguards ---- 3lbs, 12.1oz

Carbon lower with BM LPK, BM receiver extension kit, standard buffer and M4 stock ---- 1lbs 14.1oz

3lbs, 12.1oz + 1lb 14.1oz = 5lb 10.2oz basic C15 rifle


#2 - Daniel Defense 16" LW midlength upper with DD M16 BCG, Gunfighter Mod 4 charging handle, MBUS Gen 2 rear sight and MOE handguards/pistol grip with IWC QD mount ---- 4lbs, 0.6oz

S&W M&P15 lower with DD LPK, BCM receiver extension kit, H buffer and CTR stock ---- 2lbs 3.7oz

4lbs, 0.6oz + 2lbs 3.7oz = 6lb 4.3oz basic rifle

Now if you put in a standard buffer instead of the H buffer, removed the IWC QD mount and put on an M4 stock instead of the CTR, the difference in weight of the complete rifles would be about 5lb 10oz vs. 6lb or about 6 ounces. I bet the midlength MOE handguards weigh a couple ounces less than the carbine length handguards so it could only be a 4 oz difference.

And don't forget the DD BCG has an M16 carrier instead of the Bushmaster AR-15 carrier which is another 1/2 oz difference so now we're down to maybe 3.5 oz!

Hmmm, I bet the BCM Gunfighter charging handle weighs more than the BM CH. Anyway, you get the picture.

ETA:
Last argument: aluminum receivers last forever, we don't know about carbon/polymer in ARs yet. The lower receiver is the firearm so I'd be concerned that a carbon lower might not hold up and then you have to go through the registration process all over again for a new serial number/firearm.


Man, I keep coming up with additions. Sorry. But I forgot the obvious, the C15 has a 14.5" barrel while the Daniel Defense is 16". That's got to be another 1.5 oz or so. The C15 receivers might only save 2 oz!

Hammerhead6814
September 21, 2012, 08:20 PM
Only polymer lower I'm sold on is the CAV-15 MK II. The receivers that have broken have had a good reason (like someone jerry-rigging a .45 ACP mag adapter in it). NFA, Plum-crazy, and even a few Carbon-15's commonly show up broken in half at the buffer tube in picture threads.

I like the idea of a composite/polymer lower. But so far, I think everyone but Calvary Arms (now GWACS armory) have been half-assing them. NFA's plastic FCG works pretty well though.

Derek Zeanah
September 21, 2012, 08:26 PM
I bought one of the original Carbon 15s and it wouldn't run reliably. Sent it back to the factory and it still wasn't reliable. Bushmaster bought the company and extended their lifetime warranty to it, and after going back to have the chamber replaced (!!!) it finally ran well.

It also bruised my shoulder more than any other rifle I've every fired. It was painful, and I'm not shy about shooting a few hundred rounds of .308 or 12GA in a day. Part of this was the weight, and part of it was probably the shape of the stock (which sucked, to be honest.)

I traded it, but it wasn't a bad gun once it was reliable. Painful to shoot though, and the muzzle break on the 16" barrel was pretty loud too.

I don't think I'd buy another. (Traded it off by the way, so no PMs about it please. :) )

ping
September 21, 2012, 11:09 PM
Holy mackeral - more than i intended. cool. now i am at least educated. :)

ugaarguy
September 22, 2012, 04:24 AM
I would rather have a carbon fiber than most of the MIM uppers and lowers on the market today.
First, you don't have a carbon fiber upper or lower. You have polymer receivers that have pulped carbon fibers to add some strength, wear resistance, and abrasion resistance. Taking continuous strands of carbon fibers and weaving them in a cross grain manner are where actual carbon fiber gains its tremendous strength.

MIM is typically used for small parts. The only cast lowers I'm aware of were the very early Olympics, and the Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorn abominations. Everything else is forged aluminum that's finish machined.
Very few gun makers still do parts from solid blocks of metal, the CNC process is time consuming and expensive in labor, equipment and tooling.
You really don't understand CNC do you? The equipment is the tooling, and yes the initial outlay is expensive. However, the trade off is that it's very fast, and it enormously reduces labor costs because a computer controlled machine is doing almost all of the labor.

I'm glad your C15 is working for you, but you really should learn more about materials and manufacturing processes before you try to use them as a means to tell others how superior your chosen firearm is.

If someone want's to spend $1,500 or more on a all metal milled AR, good luck to them I don't since I use mine for fun and not war or zombies (insult intended). (LOL)
You can buy a Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sport with in house forged aluminum receivers for under $700. Many folks here are military veterans, LE, or just armed citizens who run their rifles hard in training and/or matches. Your C15 wouldn't last in those environments, and those are neither war nor zombie environments.

The end of that comment is very high road of you too.

The keyboard this is being typed on, my 32 inch TV, all the remote controls for the TV and recorders, the gateway that the ISP gave us, the monitor, printer, mouse, head set, X-Box and controllers, calculator, pill boxes, tape dispenser, CD's,& VHS's, storage bins, watch, pens, paper shredder, scanner, cigarette lighters, safety hard hat, tool boxes, rifle cleaning kits, my desk chair, waste basket, flash lights, the brand new dish washer we just got, my expensive camera, stocks for my hunting rifles, etc...... are all made from polimers (plastics or one kind or other.) And let's not forget my 12 fishing rods (Yes, they are carbon fiber).

But a plastic AR, heaven forbid. I think we are being a little old fashion on this.

None of those directly attached to, and supporting a tube that's supporting a piece of brass in containing a 60,000 PSI explosion. Even your plastic rifle stocks are attached to steel or aluminum receivers that support the bbl and chamber.

Trent
September 22, 2012, 09:35 AM
Some incorrect info here.

Bushmaster didn't originally make Carbon 15 pistols and rifles.

That started at a small firm called Professional Ordnance. They started out in Canada and moved to gun friendly AZ a couple years in to the venture.

From blue book of guns, about the only reference I could find since most references to Professional Ordnance have been scrubbed, excepting the few guns that still bear their marks;

"Previous manufacturer located in Lake Havasu City, AZ 1998-2003. Previously manufactured in Ontario, CA circa 1996-1997. Distributor sales only. During 2003, Bushmaster bought Professional Ordnance and the Carbon 15 trademark. Please refer to the Bushmaster section for currently manufactured Carbon 15 rifles and pistols (still manufactured in Lake Havasu City)."

I ran across this tidbit when my Carbon 15 blew up. I called Professional Ordnance's number in the manual and I got the Bushmaster folks. Was a confusing moment, until the helpful lady that I talked to said "Oh, we got bought out".

Bushmaster still makes the rifles and pistols at the old Professional Ordnance facility in AZ.

Anyway, that's the history lesson, carry on.

jim243
September 22, 2012, 10:52 AM
Bushmaster still makes the rifles and pistols at the old Professional Ordnance facility in AZ.

Trent,

Is this a recent develpment since Remington moved the Bushmaster operations?

This the address they are using now.

Address for all Mail:
Bushmaster Firearms International
P.O. Box 556
Madison, NC 27025

This is where the gun was made, or so I thought.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0717b_zps73df1999.jpg

Jim

helotaxi
September 22, 2012, 01:37 PM
This is an interesting descussion. I was just looking around the room, and guess what?
The keyboard this is being typed on, my 32 inch TV, all the remote controls for the TV and recorders, the gateway that the ISP gave us, the monitor, printer, mouse, head set, X-Box and controllers, calculator, pill boxes, tape dispenser, CD's,& VHS's, storage bins, watch, pens, paper shredder, scanner, cigarette lighters, safety hard hat, tool boxes, rifle cleaning kits, my desk chair, waste basket, flash lights, the brand new dish washer we just got, my expensive camera, stocks for my hunting rifles, etc...... are all made from polimers (plastics or one kind or other.) And let's not forget my 12 fishing rods (Yes, they are carbon fiber).

But a plastic AR, heaven forbid. I think we are being a little old fashion on this.

Jim
Nice try at being flip, but it missed the mark and you missed the point.

Sure, people poo-pooed the Glock when it first came out and that was the Fudd in them talking. What they failed to grasp then and you're failing to grasp now is that a product or part must be engineered around the material that it is to be made from. The Glock was engineered around the grip-frame being made of polymer. The AR15 was engineered around the receivers being made of 7075-T6 aluminum. Simply taking a lower receiver and molding it in FRP (fiber reinforced plastic) without changing any dimensions or design features, makes for a receiver that is inadequate for moderate to hard use. FRP can make good parts, but the part has to be engineered with that material in mind.

One day we will see a good polymer AR receiver set but that day is not today. It will happen eventually, but it will not look exactly like an Al receiver set and will likely have a spring steel or titanium skeleton and steel bushings in all the pin holes. Until one is actually engineered around a material other than 7075-T6, they will not be up to snuff.

meanmrmustard
September 22, 2012, 02:51 PM
Nice try at being flip, but it missed the mark and you missed the point.

Sure, people poo-pooed the Glock when it first came out and that was the Fudd in them talking. What they failed to grasp then and you're failing to grasp now is that a product or part must be engineered around the material that it is to be made from. The Glock was engineered around the grip-frame being made of polymer. The AR15 was engineered around the receivers being made of 7075-T6 aluminum. Simply taking a lower receiver and molding it in FRP (fiber reinforced plastic) without changing any dimensions or design features, makes for a receiver that is inadequate for moderate to hard use. FRP can make good parts, but the part has to be engineered with that material in mind.

One day we will see a good polymer AR receiver set but that day is not today. It will happen eventually, but it will not look exactly like an Al receiver set and will likely have a spring steel or titanium skeleton and steel bushings in all the pin holes. Until one is actually engineered around a material other than 7075-T6, they will not be up to snuff.
And when they're made out of steel, they will be;)

KansasSasquatch
September 22, 2012, 04:16 PM
With all that has been negatively said about the Carbon 15's I'm sure the OP and his buddy will look elsewhere. Personallly I would have never bought one but my father bought one and it has proved reliable as long as the bolt is kept wet. It's only failures have been when the bolt isn't wet and it is being fed steel cased ammo. It doesn't seem to be as finicky about being dry if good brass cased ammo is used. I've put about 2500 rounds through it (no exaggeration) and it's only failed to feed on me about 5 times. I've stopped giving my dad the lecture about polymer being junk, his rifle has proven itself so far. I still won't buy one for anymore than $500. There's plenty of other options out there for $600 or more that are probably better. But if I found one in good shape for $500 I'd pick it up as a range toy.

Trent
September 22, 2012, 06:51 PM
Bushmaster bought Professional Ordnance sometime around 2002 or 2003.

Cerebus bought Remington.

Cerebus bought Bushmaster. (Remington didn't buy Bushmaster.)

Cerebus also bought DPMS.

All one big happy family now.

Various guns are made in different places but the place of final manufacture is where the stamp comes from.

The quality of Professional Ordnance and at LEAST early Bushmaster Carbon 15's was HORRIBLE. And man, I do indeed mean HORRIBLE.

They had over 300 *bolts* break in to pieces - verified by Bushmaster support to me, and others. This is a big deal, because those bolts, barrel extensions, and many other parts on the early guns were PROPRIETARY; not mil-spec.

Here's an article on ARFCOM - identical to what happened to mine:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=399265


Trent,

Is this a recent develpment since Remington moved the Bushmaster operations?

This the address they are using now.

Address for all Mail:
Bushmaster Firearms International
P.O. Box 556
Madison, NC 27025

This is where the gun was made, or so I thought.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0717b_zps73df1999.jpg

Jim

helotaxi
September 23, 2012, 12:02 AM
And when they're made out of steel, they will be;)

When made of steel, and some have been, they are needlessly heavy with no useable increase in strength. DPMS made some from stainless. Super heavy and incredibly expensive and difficult to produce. Other than being more effective if pressed into service as a door stop or boat anchor, they were no better than a standard aluminum receiver and cost somewhere around 3x as much.

Numnuts
December 28, 2012, 09:38 PM
Ok guys, newbie has a question. I was given a top load carbon 15 from my brother. Needless to say that we in Texas do not like restrictions. Anyways, is it as easy as changing the lower receiver to make it a mag feed platform? Thanks and God bless to all.

jim243
December 28, 2012, 10:52 PM
is it as easy as changing the lower receiver to make it a mag feed platform

Yes. Just make sure it is not a Colt lower, the holes are different. If you are going to replace just the lower and not all of the other parts in the lower, I believe you will also need to replace the tube for the stock as well.

Jim

Numnuts
December 28, 2012, 11:12 PM
Can someone answer a question for a newbie? I was recently given a top load carbon 15. It must be one of those California compliant models. It has fixed magazine that is sealed. Can it be as simple as to replace the lower receiver to make it accept standard mags. Thanks and God Bless.

Derek Zeanah
December 28, 2012, 11:14 PM
Hey, Numnuts:

You've asked the same question in something like 4-5 threads now.

Why don't you sit back, have a beer, relax a bit, and give people a chance to answer. It's Friday night after all -- lots of people are away from their computers right now...

Numnuts
December 28, 2012, 11:15 PM
Thanks Jim, much appreciated. I should have looked before I reposted.

Numnuts
December 28, 2012, 11:23 PM
Different people read different things. Didn't think I was offending anyone. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Gordon
December 28, 2012, 11:50 PM
Open up the bottom of the reciever with a Dremel very carefully following the outside of the castin marks. Finish with a file and sandpaper. BTW the insert magazine will release thru the bottom with the mag release button and a regular mag will now slide in. Use sand paper and a file so all kinds of mags will fit. Hint: Magpul mags are the biggest I've found. Old Nam era aluminum GI mags the smallest. I did this to a Cali one and put in a bullet button with a 10 round mag to be GTG here. MyCarbon 15 has had 500 trouble free rounds thru it with only half a dozen bobbles in the first 50. Then I cleaned it and greased it and it seems OK.

Gordon
December 28, 2012, 11:55 PM
Open up the bottom of the reciever with a Dremel very carefully following the outside of the castin marks. Finish with a file and sandpaper. BTW the insert magazine will release thru the bottom with the mag release button and a regular mag will now slide in. Use sand paper and a file so all kinds of mags will fit. Hint: Magpul mags are the biggest I've found. Old Nam era aluminum GI mags the smallest. I did this to a Cali one and put in a bullet button with a 10 round mag to be GTG here. MyCarbon 15 has had 500 trouble free rounds thru it with only half a dozen bobbles in the first 50. Then I cleaned it and greased it and it seems OK.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/068.jpg

Quentin
December 29, 2012, 03:33 AM
Yes. Just make sure it is not a Colt lower, the holes are different. If you are going to replace just the lower and not all of the other parts in the lower, I believe you will also need to replace the tube for the stock as well.

Jim


My buddy replaced the original receiver extension in his 2008 Carbon-15 with another. He was changing the Bushmaster commercial diameter RE for a milspec diameter. Later he used that C-15 RE in a milspec lower so the threads are the same as the milspec lower.

Anyway, if you don't mind the commercial RE it will fit another lower. But BM loctites the RE in the C-15 which makes it hard to remove, we had a tough time breaking it loose without breaking the receiver. I'd be careful. Personally I would go with a milspec RE on the new lower which is what Jim said anyway.

Also, current Colt receivers use standard size holes.

mtrmn
December 29, 2012, 09:19 PM
A friend of mine was looking at AR's and asked me a question i could not answer. he was looking at the bushmaster model 90689 carbon 15. i know nothing about the carbon piece of this. what are they talking about. i only buy rock river and i am very conservative. i like the basic A2, anyway what does the carbon comment mean. is it something i should tell my friend to stay away from. they seem pretty cheap - maybe to cheap. so many manufacturers of AR stuff now. i pretty much stay with armalite, bushmaster, colt, dpms and rock river.

anyway any info on this would be great.

thanks

I didn't read all the thread, someone may have already pointed this out. I believe the word in red is mis-spelled.

bowyer19
December 31, 2012, 09:36 PM
I bought a BM carbon15 two years ago. 0 problems with the 5.56 upper after 2000 rnds. I put a 6.8 upper on it and had to go to the "H" buffer and titanium firing pin to solve a "slam fire" issue. It still works fine with the 5.56 upper without changing buffers. It now has about 500 rnds through it (6.8SPC) with no further problems and 2 bucks have fallen to it with one shot each.(SSA TAC ammo,110grn. Barnes TSX).

Bought a Chiappa .22 long rifle upper for it . It works fine. (Their magazines are kind of a pain in the neck to load.)

Shortly after I bought it,I removed the lower, de-greased the trigger group, put JB Bore polish on the engagement surfaces, cocked and clicked the hammer 40 times catching the hammer so it would not slam into the frame. I then carefully removed the bore polish and re-lubed the trigger group with Break Free. The result was a smooth 3.5LB trigger that has not changed so far. (Try this at your own risk.)

One of our local gun stores has sold "a lot of them" with no problems reported to him. ( I had already bought mine on a pre-Christmas sale from another source before we discussed them.)

I don't know how the Bush Master Carbon 15 compares with New Frontier's, but check out NF's torture test on You Tube.

Hit_Factor
December 31, 2012, 10:10 PM
A friend of mine had one of these carbon 15s and he asked me to help him sight it in. I really struggled with it until later I realized it was shooting 6 MOA. Obviously, the rifle flexed too much to hold a decent group.

bowyer19
January 1, 2013, 02:49 PM
Mine started out like that, but after about 100 rnd break in it settled down to 1.5" for 5 shots with Federal bulk ammo. I had previously read in one of these forums not to get excited about the accuracy of chrome lined bores until at least 100 rnds was fired through them.

I now have handloads for it that are sub MOA. I don't think I would expect long strings of fire to group well because the "pencil" barrel" heats up relatively rapidly.

Regarding the rifles blown in half- I believe those must have somehow fired with the bolt lugs not engaged as the locked up rifle would be steel to steel.

Trent
January 1, 2013, 11:24 PM
Regarding the rifles blown in half- I believe those must have somehow fired with the bolt lugs not engaged as the locked up rifle would be steel to steel.

The early Professional Ordinance carbon 15 bolts had either bad heat treating or bad metallurgy. When mine blew up, the front half of the bolt was still fully engaged in the lands. The back half of the bolt was... askew. :)

The problem with the early ones that Pro Ordinance used, is they were NOT standard AR-15 bolts, but rather, a modification. They used ROUNDED locking lugs as opposed to squared lugs. When Bushmaster bought them out they changed the design back to standard.

I haven't been able to find a replacement bolt for my Carbon 15 pistol. Bushmaster said they couldn't honor the warranty as they didn't have replacement costs, but offered a new barrel and bolt at cost with no labor.. still was a couple hundred bucks for the repair. I didn't elect to take it.

hq
January 2, 2013, 04:42 AM
A friend of mine had one of these carbon 15s and he asked me to help him sight it in. I really struggled with it until later I realized it was shooting 6 MOA. Obviously, the rifle flexed too much to hold a decent group.

That's the main reason I haven't replaced my backpack AR (Colt A2-based shorty) with one. Being able to hit a grouse-sized target at 150-200 yards requires 1-1½MOA accuracy and while shaving off another 1-2lbs of weight is tempting, an inaccurate rifle is pretty much useless to me. I've heard reports of some C15:s being able to hold a 2MOA group @100yd which would just suffice, but when I buy a rifle I much rather get one that works than one that just might work if I get lucky.

BigBird7236
March 20, 2014, 05:55 AM
I bought a Bushmaster C-15 exactly one month ago. Boxed it up to send back to Bushmaster today for a cracked upper. This come on the heels of an email from a friend last week whom bought the same gun by ATI and his lower broke right at the handle behind the trigger guard. I would NOT advise buying one of these until they get these bugs worked out. Definately disappointed in mine.

bflee
March 22, 2014, 12:04 AM
It amazes me that people buy this carbon rifle and then hang ten pounds of crap off it and say they boight it for weight.
You can buy an all metal AR that weighs six pounds. If you cant carry a six pound rifle you need to be at the gym and not at the range.

burk
March 22, 2014, 07:13 PM
As someone who has sold plenty of them with warnings here's my take. At the Gander Mountain I work at part time they are certainly the most unreliable AR. In fact we take them back more than all others combined, while there sales are mid pack. As far as I can tell their are four issues.

1) Thin barrel that over heats with heavy use causing groups to open up.

2) Flex in the upper and in the joints between the uppers and lowers, this can cause some jamming issues

3) Ammo sensitivity. Despite the fact they are rated for 5.56 DON'T DO IT. Almost every repair we've had with parts failure had run 5.56, run .223 only.

4) Flex in the upper causes the Picatany rail to loosen, it is only connected with two allen screws.

My conclusion: They aren't a bad gun for plinking and coyote hunting for the money. Don't buy one for three gun, precision long range shooting, a build your going to deck out, or as HD gun, they just aren't reliable enough. I would go with the Smith Sport or the Stag for about $100 more as an alternative. Having said this I'm not anti-Bushmaster, I own an old M4 bushy and it's a great gun, and we have very few issues with their other products. But the C-15 is a different animal, cheap, and you get what you pay for.

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