223rem


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kingcheese
September 23, 2012, 12:41 AM
Ok, so i have primed brass for 223, and i have Barnes vg 36g, but the only powder i got on hand is imr4227, and I'm wondering if i could make a useable round from my materials, I'm new to reloading so any information and warnings is appreciated.

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cfullgraf
September 23, 2012, 01:07 AM
IMR4227 is too fast a powder for normal 223 Remington loads. I would not recommend using it but I am sure someone has done so and has lived to tell about it.

Check out Hodgdon's reloading guide at...

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

They have lots of data for the Barnes 36 grain bullet.

ArchAngelCD
September 23, 2012, 01:17 AM
I agree, 4227 is way too fast a powder for the .223. You will generate excessively high pressures before you come close to acceptable velocities.

Many of the medium burn rifle powders are acceptable. Try H335, TAC, 4895, Varget and many others in that burn rate range.

helotaxi
September 23, 2012, 02:34 AM
TAC is too slow for the .36gn VG. H322, Benchmark, AA2200 and AA2230/X-Terminator are the right range for that bullet. On the fast side for the .223 but still much slower than 4227.

ralph2
September 23, 2012, 03:14 AM
I agree 4227 is to fast for best velocities but I have used 2400 to get around 2500 fps with a 55gr bullet and 4227 is slower and with a 36 gr bullet I would suspect a load could we worked up in the 2800-3000 fps range

ArchAngelCD
September 23, 2012, 03:15 AM
Hodgdon's Load Data Site (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) lists 12 powders for use the a 35gr bullet. I'm sure all 12 won't deliver the highest performance but I'm sure you will find a few that will. The 3 Hodgdon powders I mentioned above are included. BTW, Ramshot lists TAC with a 34gr bullet in the .223...

KansasSasquatch
September 23, 2012, 03:30 AM
Off the top of my head, I believe H4198 (very similiar if not identical burn rate ti IMR4198) is the fastest burning powder that Hodgdon publishes data for .223. But there is data for Reloder 7 which is faster. There probably is data out there for 4227 but you will probably have to do some digging to find it.

kingcheese
September 23, 2012, 08:45 AM
Barnes website has data for benchmark and tac, but i haven't found those powders anywhere

jwrowland77
September 23, 2012, 10:13 AM
I use H4895 and H335. Love them both.

j1
September 23, 2012, 10:18 AM
My last load was of IMR 4198 and 52 grain Sierra target bullets it shoots one hole groups. I do not remember the velocity. To me accurate is good velocity comes next.

KansasSasquatch
September 23, 2012, 01:44 PM
kingcheese if you are going to buy another powder specifically for .223 I suggest Varget or CFE223. Good velocity, good metering, great accuracy, not very temperature sensitive, and pretty versatile for other cartridges as well.

Ky Larry
September 23, 2012, 01:54 PM
My goto powder for .223 Rem is AA-2460.

kingcheese
September 23, 2012, 02:30 PM
Well, i got 4227 because i use it in 7.62x54r loads and 7.62x38r nagant loads, I'm wanting specifically to load 36grain vg and 40grain v-max, so given that, what would be the best powder to use for both? U did find a link on imr using 4227 with a 45grain sierra spitzer using a 17.5g charge, so given that can i use that information to make a new load

hentown
September 23, 2012, 03:47 PM
Must be shooting something with a barrel twist of about 1-in-15?? :evil:

helotaxi
September 23, 2012, 06:27 PM
Must be shooting something with a barrel twist of about 1-in-15?? :evil:
??? I've shot those bullets (they're long for a 36gn because of the copper/tin core) from a 1:7 with no problem and just as accurate as any other bullet.

Haxby
September 23, 2012, 06:40 PM
Du Pont Handloader's Guide 1975-76 listed
223 Remington 45 gr spitzer IMR 4227 17.5 gr 3085 fps 51400 cup

Hodgdon #26 lists 17.0 gr H4427 with a 40 gr bulluet.

hentown
September 23, 2012, 08:19 PM
I didn't literally mean that I thought that he had a 1/15 barrel! ;)

kingcheese
September 23, 2012, 10:22 PM
Its a Rossi single shot, 23inch barrel, 1:12 rifle rate, so will that make a difference in what powder i should use?

kingcheese
September 23, 2012, 10:23 PM
And what's the difference between imr4227 and h4227?

helotaxi
September 24, 2012, 12:22 AM
Its a Rossi single shot, 23inch barrel, 1:12 rifle rate, so will that make a difference in what powder i should use?
No difference.

The difference between the two powders is that they are different. Similar burn rate but different enough that the load data is not interchangeable.

helotaxi
September 24, 2012, 12:25 AM
Du Pont Handloader's Guide 1975-76 listed
223 Remington 45 gr spitzer IMR 4227 17.5 gr 3085 fps 51400 cup
Well that's about 500fps off the pace. So, yes you could make a functional load, you can do that with almost any powder/cartridge/bullet combination, but its no longer a published load simply because it isn't a particularly good load because that powder is just too fast to work well in the .223.

Haxby
September 24, 2012, 01:38 AM
wondering if i could make a useable round

Sure. Won't be the fastest. Might be plenty accurate. 4227 works in lots of cartridges. Google '4227 in 223.' There has to be lots of guys have tried it.

ArchAngelCD
September 24, 2012, 06:20 AM
Well, i got 4227 because i use it in 7.62x54r loads and 7.62x38r nagant loads,
Are you sure you're writing the correct powder number for the powder you're using in the 7.62X54R ammo? I can possibly see using 4227 for your 7.62X38R ammo but the 7.62X54R too?? Where did you get the brass and load data for the 7.62X38R? 4227 is WAY too fast a powder for 7.62X54R ammo, I can't see it working at all safely. :confused:

kingcheese
September 24, 2012, 07:39 AM
I was pushing for a 100yd plinking load in the nagant, so it stayed subsonic, brass came from privi partizen, and imr 4227 is indeed what i used, brass for the nagant 7.62x38r is reformed 32-20

cfullgraf
September 24, 2012, 08:17 AM
I was pushing for a 100yd plinking load in the nagant, so it stayed subsonic, brass came from privi partizen, and imr 4227 is indeed what i used, brass for the nagant 7.62x38r is reformed 32-20

Realizing that you are looking for a plinking load, not a full power load, go over to

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

Those guys are more likely to have low power loads for lots of cartridges with pistol powders.

kingcheese
September 24, 2012, 09:51 AM
No, in the 223 I'm going for a full power hunting/varmint round

788Ham
September 25, 2012, 09:48 PM
I've used 4227 in revolver loads, but have many more that are better than the one you mentioned for the .223.

kingcheese
September 25, 2012, 09:58 PM
Well, it looks like ill be getting more powder, I'm going to try to find benchmark or tac, which is a more "universal" powder?

kingcheese
September 25, 2012, 09:59 PM
Benchmark and tac where what Barnes manual had data for

helotaxi
September 27, 2012, 12:59 AM
Benchmark is good for the light bullets. Tac is better for the heavier ones. IMB 8208XBR, AA2230, X-Terminator and Varget span the range of bullet weights well.

kingcheese
September 27, 2012, 08:05 AM
Ok, ill keep those powders in mind, I'm gonna try to pick some up tonight, and this will be the first time I'm going for a full power load so is there anything i need to know about where to start charge wise based of the manuals min and max charge weights?

kingcheese
September 27, 2012, 10:59 PM
Ok, so i found out that without ordering powder, i have very few choices, i found load data for imr 4198, starting loads was listed at 20.5grains, i loaded 5 with 20grains for my first test, so, my question is, can anyone verify that this load should be safe?

ArchAngelCD
September 28, 2012, 12:29 AM
Ok, so i found out that without ordering powder, i have very few choices, i found load data for imr 4198, starting loads was listed at 20.5grains, i loaded 5 with 20grains for my first test, so, my question is, can anyone verify that this load should be safe?
If the starting load is listed as 20.5gr you should not load below that load, that's why it's called the starting load. Even though 20.0gr is only .5gr below the starting load it's still below and not a good practice. It can be just as dangerous to load too light as it is to load too heavy.

kingcheese
September 28, 2012, 12:29 PM
I beliv you, but I'm aslo going off of other data for 40grain bullets to, what happens with a light powder charge to make it dangerous, pressure spike or what?

helotaxi
September 28, 2012, 03:39 PM
The starting load isn't a minimum unless plainly stated as such. It merely provides a safety margin from the max load from which to work up. The "danger" of loading too light is sticking a bullet in the barrel. I'm guessing that the 20.5 load is in the 2500+fps range meaning that sticking a bullet going a half grain lower isn't a real danger. I'm also guessing that the 20.0gn load will still fill more than half the case and presents no credible danger of a detonation. The .223 case is pretty small and as a result failry forgiving of light loads. It also doesn't call for super slow powders which makes it even more forgiving of reduced loads.

I can understand people wanting to err of the side of caution with the whole "don't go below the starting loads" thing, but just blindly going with that without real rationale or understanding of why the data publisher started with that particular charge weight doesn't make for good advice. The simple reality is that load testers for data publishers don't have an unlimited amount of time to test loads and publishers don't have unlimited space to publish load data. As a result, they are forced to bound the lower end of the powder weights that they test instead of taking them down to some true minimum where powder burn becomes erratic or bullets might get stuck in the bore.

kingcheese
September 28, 2012, 08:25 PM
The 20.5 load was 3200fps

kingcheese
September 28, 2012, 09:10 PM
And it fills about 3/4 of the case

ArchAngelCD
September 30, 2012, 03:40 AM
I beliv you, but I'm aslo going off of other data for 40grain bullets to, what happens with a light powder charge to make it dangerous, pressure spike or what?
Actually, with a lighter bullet the charge weights will be even higher than the data provided for a 40gr bullet.

A lot of things could happen with too light a load. Inconsistent ignition is one and wild velocity spreads is another. Pressures could also spike like you mentioned.

The Hodgdon load data site has load data for the .223 and a 36gr Barnes bullet. With that bullet they list a starting charge of 21.2gr and a max charge of 22.5gr IMR4198. That makes your 20.0gr charge 1.2gr below the starting charge weight, you might want to bring that up a little.

kingcheese
September 30, 2012, 06:56 PM
20grains, tested 5 rounds, neck expanded when shot, brass came out clean, all powder burnt, no wear on the brass that is detectable, I'm happy with the results, and now i can,move on for accuracy, i no longer need this thread and thanks for all the input

helotaxi
September 30, 2012, 09:13 PM
Actually, with a lighter bullet the charge weights will be even higher than the data provided for a 40gr bullet.Just like with their TSX and TTSX bullets though, the Varmint Grenade load data doesn't "track" with normal bullets with regard to weight.

kingcheese
September 30, 2012, 10:30 PM
Because the bullet is longer, and it was recommended that i look at heavier bullets that have similar lengths

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