Has anyone seen this nonsense?


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Demitrios
September 23, 2012, 02:29 PM
I was on Facebook when I came across this page. Heaven only knows why it was being advertised on my Facebook but it piqued my curiosity. So I clicked on the link http://www.demandaplan.org// and the first thing it says is, "Convicted felons, sex offenders, suspected terrorists, and the mentally ill can legally buy guns with no background check."

Naturally this made me raise an eyebrow and I had to ask the question, ". . . How?". So I poked around the website a bit and naturally there's absolutely no facts or. . . well anything really. There's no evidence, no statistics, no facts, nothing. BUT there IS an interactive map. Now I live in NJ and according to the Brady campaign we rank #2 in the country in terms of gun laws. Yet according to this interactive map we are among the worst because we supposedly don't have to submit mental health records. So I guess that yellow piece of paper I have to fill out and pay $16 for in order to have my mental health status checked doesn't apply in this case?

So I've decided to send a friendly e-mail and it went a little something like this. . .

"To whom it concerns,
I happen to be a supporter of anti crime and violence and before I consider signing up and supporting your site I was hoping you could answer a few questions for me first. I see your interactive map has a my home state of NJ as one of the most dangerous states in the country in terms of lax gun laws. According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence website we rank 72 out of a possible 100 on their scorecard and are the second highest graded throughout the country. I find it alarming to see that we're under such threat and was hoping you could elaborate some more so that we can prevent and end this level of violence.

Also when I saw your map it noted that in the state of NJ only 17 of 73,540 mental health records were submitted. This is obviously dangerously low so I immediately contacted the state police to address this. According to them mental health background checks are conducted for anyone purchasing a firearm, however I want to fight the good fight and was wondering what we could do to help in order to strengthen this these checks and reduce gun violence.

Thank you for your time.

Demitrios

So this is what I intend to send. Any thoughts, additions, subtractions to this e-mail? What do you guys think? And no, this isn't provocation or screwing with someone of a different thought process. Anyone with something to say, even if it is against my own beliefs, should get a fair chance. I just happen to be curious to what they have to say.

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Trent
September 23, 2012, 05:34 PM
I'm curious to what they have to say too.

Interesting way of phrasing the mail, I think that'll work well. :)

Neverwinter
September 23, 2012, 10:10 PM
"Convicted felons, sex offenders, suspected terrorists, and the mentally ill can legally buy guns with no background check."
One of these things is not like the other. It's the one whose status hasn't been changed as a result of a legal proceeding.

Or has the list of prohibited persons described on the 4473 changed since I last checked?

Bobson
September 23, 2012, 11:08 PM
Deleted.

hso
September 23, 2012, 11:14 PM
Let's focus on this particular topic instead of ranting about the general control issues.

Demandaplan.org is a Mayors Against Gun Violence product. Sending emails to DAP will accomplish nothing. They are the avowed enemy of the 2A and gunowners and aren't interested in anything we have to say.

The people we need to reach with your message are the people who support MAGV and DAP and the people who read their lies.

I suggest that the DAP and MAGV youtube videos make good targets for pointing out the lies and half truths promulgated by these people to chip away at their credibility with the uninformed. Any internet site that allows comments are another.

7.62 Nato
September 24, 2012, 01:03 AM
Is there any way of linking opposing viewpoint/information videos to theirs?

mgkdrgn
September 26, 2012, 03:28 AM
Let's focus on this particular topic instead of ranting about the general control issues.

Demandaplan.org is a Mayors Against Gun Violence product. Sending emails to DAP will accomplish nothing. They are the avowed enemy of the 2A and gunowners and aren't interested in anything we have to say.

The people we need to reach with your message are the people who support MAGV and DAP and the people who read their lies.

I suggest that the DAP and MAGV youtube videos make good targets for pointing out the lies and half truths promulgated by these people to chip away at their credibility with the uninformed. Any internet site that allows comments are another.
Assuming that people that push/believe this rubbish care about lies and half truths ... which they don't.

Demitrios
September 26, 2012, 09:58 PM
Well here's a nifty little excerpt if you go to the parent site M.A.I.G. (Mayors Against Illegal Guns) and look under "Coalition Principles" http://mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/about/principles.shtml:

Punish - to the maximum extent of the law - criminals who possess, use, and traffic in illegal guns. (Interestingly enough there's no mention of how they punish law abiding citizens after making them into criminals).

Target and hold accountable irresponsible gun dealers who break the law by knowingly selling guns to straw purchasers.

Oppose all federal efforts to restrict cities' right to access, use, and share trace data that is so essential to effective enforcement, or to interfere with the ability of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to combat illegal gun trafficking. (Corrupt organizations need love too).

Work to develop and use technologies that aid in the detection and tracing of illegal guns.

Support all local state and federal legislation that targets illegal guns; coordinate legislative, enforcement, and litigation strategies; and share information and best practices. (When it's convenient)

Invite other cities to join us in this new national effort. (This wamr invitation is really nice as long as you take it. If you refuse it then you're part of the problem).

Demitrios
September 28, 2012, 02:15 AM
And here is the response to my e-mail.

Demitrios,

Thanks for your inquiry. Great questions.

Our interactive NICS maps is not a ranking of strong vs. lax gun laws. Instead, it tracks reporting of relevant mental health records into the federal gun background check database:
http://www.demandaplan.org/FatalGaps

Our coalition does not produce rankings based on state laws; however, in our 2010 Trace Report, we did identify 10 key state laws that help curb illegal gun trafficking. NJ had enacted all 10:
http://tracetheguns.org/#/states/NJ/exports/ (http://tracetheguns.org/#/states/NJ/exports/)

According to officials interviewed in our 2011 Fatal Gaps report, the state’s mental health record reporting system was to come online this year. However, according to an article last month, it appears this will now happen in 2013: http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local//healthscience/43274-new-jersey-is-working-on-entering-mental-illness-related-records-into-gun-safety-data-base

In 2009, mental illness accounted for 6.2% of state gun background check denials and 5.3% of local background check denials around the country (see Table 4): http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/html/bcft/2009/bcft09st.pdf

Until NJ can start uploading relevant mental health records into the federal database, we are concerned that too many so-called prohibited purchasers will be able to pass background checks and obtain guns.

Hope this information helps. We really appreciate your support and don’t hesitate to send any further questions or comments.


Regards,

Brian



Brian Levinson

Mayors Against Illegal Guns

blevinson@cityhall.nyc.gov

Trent
September 28, 2012, 09:42 AM
So they basically want everyone to give their privileged medical records over to the state / federal government?

God help all of us if we ever get depressed over something.

hso
September 28, 2012, 12:07 PM
That's what it may seem like, but the term "relevant" is critical here in their response. Relevant mental health records would be like those submitted by VA AFTER the VA Tech mass shooting. Other states had records requirements, but VA had prohibited certain records from being introduced to the NICS type system. After the shooting VA changed their requirements to be more like other states so that all records relevant to NICS would be submitted.

Abuse of such a system is a concern of many around the country, but there's already mental health information being submitted for NICS screening. What the limits on that information need to be as government asks for more and less definitive information be submitted to its various databases is a great debate between privacy advocates and officials using public safety as a rationale for requesting it. That larger issue goes far beyond the 2A scope of this forum.

Demitrios
September 28, 2012, 02:54 PM
Well any college kid whose written a paper can point out a few glaring flaws here:

#1 They direct you to their interactive map which is simply information they claimed they gathered without any sort of source of information cited. They cite themselves and you can't do that!

#2 They again direct us to website, this time a very anti-gun website, and it states there are ten laws that help curb gun violence. According to this site NJ has all ten of these laws yet according to M.A.I.G. we're one of the worst states in America. That's completely counter-intuitive and (pardon the pun) they've gone and shot themselves in the foot.

#3 They direct you to ANOTHER website of an article via "Newsworks", a news outlet with as far as I know absolutely no credibility, that wrote an article which literally says nothing. It says absolutely nothing about how submitting health records can and has helped end and prevent gun violence, nor how it works and what effect it has on civil liberties.

I could go on how I'm directed to the D.O.J. for statistical analysis and even go so far as to argue that this is the most corrupt D.O.J. we've ever seen and is therefore untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, however it's a bit easier than that. All they claim is that there were background check denials and that some of those denials were based on mental illness. This begs the question, how many mental health denials were you expecting? How many mental deficient people are there in this country and of those people how many are even attempting to purchase firearms? They basically just pointed out that as far as we know the system works.

This entire time not once have they mentioned what "relevant" mental health records they're looking for, what constitutes as relevant or the fact that police institutions do in fact report every case they deal with including those who have been either suspected or deemed mentally deficient.

Add to the fact that one sentence says, "we are concerned that too many so-called prohibited purchasers will be able to pass background checks and obtain guns." What does that even mean? If they're prohibited who calls them prohibited? The police do! They're not "so-called" they're simply prohibited. That sentence alone is a conundrum and completely ridiculous.

M.A.I.G. has done a whole lot of talking and absolutely nothing to back it up, just like a good politician should.

tomrkba
September 29, 2012, 10:24 PM
The government cannot restrict the free sales of firearms in Virginia. All they can do is defer to the FFL system setup by the Feds for new sales. Virginians have the right to dispose and acquire property, even if that property is a firearm. As such, Virginians may sell to other Virginians so long as the seller is not in the business of selling firearms.

The side effect of this is that anyone can buy a gun from a private seller. It is up to the buyer to know whether or not he or she is legally allowed to own a gun. EVERY seller I have ever purchased from asked for ID, CHP or Virginia Voter Registration Card. Most ask for a bill of sale. I have aborted transactions in the past, but I'm generally pretty good at figuring it out in email or over the phone. Gun enthusiasts are easy to spot, which is another clue they're safe to sell to. All this, of course, throws Morons Against Guns, the Brady Commies and others into fits. I am happy to continue to buy and sell guns privately to increase their stress and anxiety in the hopes they all drop dead.

If your state does not honor its constitution or does not include the right to keep and bear arms, then it's up to you to get that added. If you can/do/will not add it, then consider moving to Virginia. We have excellent gun laws and many jobs.

HorseSoldier
September 30, 2012, 01:06 AM
Interesting that your correspondent had an email address at city hall in NYC. Is the city or state of New York bankrolling Bloomberg's pet project with taxpayer money?

Owen Sparks
November 12, 2012, 04:35 PM
Being suspected of something is not a crime. They supposidly have to PROVE that you are a terrorist or are mentally ill.

ErikO
November 30, 2012, 03:19 PM
Currently, if I recall correctly, a mental health failure on a NICS would involve being forcably remanded to a mental institution by the courts. Do I have that correct?

bobbo
November 30, 2012, 10:12 PM
Just checking... but
a) Aren't there federal penalties for straw purchases from dealers?
b) Aren't there federal penalties for fraudulent statements on a 4473?
c) Aren't there federal penalties for a dealer not performing a NICS check?

So... aren't three of their "awesome-sauce" laws already the law of the land?

orionengnr
November 30, 2012, 10:50 PM
Being suspected of something is not a crime. They supposidly have to PROVE that you are a terrorist or are mentally ill.

I think you highlighted the wrong word.

Exchange "supposidly" (sic, BTW) for "should have to "...and in real life, "may be able to convince someone". Habeus Corpus is long ago dead and buried. "Proof" is immaterial and extraneous. Being "suspected of" leads to "being guilty of" and thence to "convicted of".

knifestuff
November 30, 2012, 11:22 PM
A mental health failure on a NICS check does not only involve forced institutionalization; an adjudication alone (by a court or agency) in that regard can trigger NICS reporting provisions.

Lucifer_Sam
November 30, 2012, 11:32 PM
Heh. A bit off topic, but I decided to google our friend Brians email address, turns out he was involved in this, although peripherally--

http://ohio.mediatrackers.org/2012/08/02/columbus-mayors-office-conspired-with-liberal-groups-to-politicize-school-shooting/

Here is a list of the email correspondence

http://ohio.mediatrackers.org/files/2012/08/Coleman_Bloomberg_ProgressOhio_Chardon.pdf

Its interesting reading, mainly NYC .gov goons conspiring with others to exploit the campus shooting to their own ends... "for everyone's good", no doubt. As Horsesoldier pointed out, its a truly wonderful thing that tax dollars are paying many of these peoples salaries.

A couple excerpts--

------------------------------------------------
I just see Lee a note on this as well… I’d like to talk about guns on campus before we do a full court press. Chris is looking at the bill. It doesn’t really connect for
because federal law prohibits guns near or at public schools, and even if the Ohio bill is aimed at public schools, federal law would still trump that. What message
were you thinking on this? I’m not necessarily opposed to trying to connect the two for messaging purposes – just want to make sure we have our facts straight. In
the meantime, I totally agree that today is a good time for condolence page.

Janey Rountree
Firearms Policy Coordinator
Office of the Mayor of New York City
1 Centre Street | Room 1012N

-------------------------------------------------------
Here is the site where we will collect words of sympathy for the students, families & community of Chardon High School. It is live now. By tomorrow we will start a
blog that features the best comments and has a little bit of news on the shootings.

http://rememberingchardon.com/

Please push this out to your networks however possible. We would like to see it go viral.

Thanks,
Lance
------------------------------------------------------

Such sweet, sweet people....

Anyway, to throw in a little bit about activism (and proselytize, of course), this shows that you really do need to be factually accurate and professional when dealing with RBKA issues online, say on the comments of news articles, or even something like facebook. These people in these emails feel its important, and likely with good reason. Off the cuff, poorly thought out responses dont really help, and can be damaging. And its a very good thing when people like this are beaten in an arena where they have no real advantage in attempting to doctor the appearance of public opinion in their favor.

Carl N. Brown
December 1, 2012, 03:01 PM
Wright and Rossi, "Armed and Considered Dangerous", from the NIJ survey of 1874 felons convicted of armed crimes.
50% got guns from "street dealers"
25% from fellow felons
12% stole the guns they used
13% had a relative, friend or lover with no record buy a gun for them at a store or pawnshop.

Soooo "Convicted felons, sex offenders, suspected terrorists, and the mentally ill can illegally buy guns with no background check, too."

40% of all the armed and dangerous felons admitted to stealing guns, some for their own use, most for resale to the "street dealers" including drug smugglers (most people who deal in one sort of contraband deal in another on the side). Sources stolen from included: 37% from stores, 15% from police, 16% from truck shipments, 8% from manufacturers, 21% from individuals.

alsaqr
December 2, 2012, 08:59 AM
Distorting the facts and lying are not new tactics for the anti-gun groups. They've been doing this for years.

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