Reloading For M1 Garand


PDA






Havok7416
September 23, 2012, 04:37 PM
I am working up some loads for my M1 Garand but I am also trying to work up loads for my neighbors bolt-action. I saw the loadings in the Hornady handbook for 178 grain loads. Does anyone here have any experience with this bullet in the M1 Garand? Recipes are also appreciated.

If you enjoyed reading about "Reloading For M1 Garand" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
USSR
September 23, 2012, 09:49 PM
The Hornady 178gr Amax is a great bullet. A load using it and 46.0gr of IMR4895 would work quite well in a Garand. I use 46.5gr of IMR4895 with 174gr M72 bullets all the time. Good luck.

Don

wolfe
September 23, 2012, 09:51 PM
Well whatever you do don't go crazy and load 200+ until you know the load will cycle the action properly. I've pulled more 30-06 than I care to mention

Havok7416
September 23, 2012, 10:01 PM
Thanks for the info. I ordered IMR 4895 and CCI primers because I prefer them. I won't be loading massive quantities anyway, but typically my test loads are never over 5 rounds of a given powder weight. As this is my first foray into bottlenecks I will be proceeding much slower than usual.

ArchAngelCD
September 24, 2012, 05:33 AM
Why are you loading such a heavy bullet for the Garand? I load either a 150gr Spitzer or 168gr Match bullet but usually no heavier.

I'm using H4895 instead of IMR4895 because I feel it's slightly more accurate and it also produces less pressure for the same velocities. I charge 46.4gr H4895 under a 150gr bullet and 46.0gr H4895 under the 168gr bullet.

Havok7416
September 25, 2012, 07:51 PM
I am loading 178 grain bullets because my neighbor shoots 180 grain loads and I don't want to make two separate loads. There is a 178 grain load listed in the Hornady handbook so I will be attempting to use that.

TonyT
September 26, 2012, 08:53 AM
I always used either IMR-4895 or IMR-3031 with 150 gr. bullets in my Garand.

Captaingyro
September 27, 2012, 03:17 PM
Lake City M72 Match ammo for the Garand used a 173 grain bullet at 2640 fps, so 178 grains seems to be within reason. M2 Ball at 150 grains was a compromise; somewhere around 170 grains seems to be the sweet spot for the original garand barrels.

Havok7416
September 27, 2012, 06:31 PM
The Hornady loads list the 178 grain bullet at 2550 or so max. It's a little lower than what Captain indicated but seems acceptable.

wtr100
September 27, 2012, 10:01 PM
I am loading 178 grain bullets because my neighbor shoots 180 grain loads and I don't want to make two separate loads. There is a 178 grain load listed in the Hornady handbook so I will be attempting to use that.
not that it's my business but I'd be very careful loading for someone else

1hobie
September 27, 2012, 10:11 PM
Greetings,

Loading for a Garand and a bolt action 30-06 are 2 different animals. If you're following Hornady's recipes specific to the Garand, then you'll be fine. If you're using 30-06 loads for bolt guns for your Garand, you could damage your gun. The big concern is the gas system of the Garand is only designed for a specific range of powders. IIRC you're fine with 4895 as it falls within the acceptable speed of burn.
I get around this to a degree by using an adjustable gas plug for my Garand from Brownells. It let's me shoot a wider variety of loads without worry of breaking the op-rod or hammering the action.
Good luck to you on finding your favorite load!

Hobie

Havok7416
September 27, 2012, 11:13 PM
I am using the Hornady load tables specific to the M1 Garand to make the same load for my M1, my neighbors pump-action and a co-worker's bolt-action. There will be no problems as the M1 Garand load is slightly reduced from the regular .30-06 formulas.

As for wtr100's comment, it is my opinion that anyone unsure of their loads shouldn't be loading for themselves, let alone anyone else. I will be sure to note your concern in my load table comments.

ArchAngelCD
September 27, 2012, 11:24 PM
As for wtr100's comment, it is my opinion that anyone unsure of their loads shouldn't be loading for themselves, let alone anyone else. I will be sure to note your concern in my load table comments.
I wasn't going to comment but after that statement I have to disagree with you. Mistakes can and will happen no matter how sure you are. If you load ammo for someone else, no matter how good a friend, if your ammo causes them injury watch how fast friendship gets thrown under the bus along with you and all your assets by the time their lawyer gets done with you...

1hobie
September 28, 2012, 04:14 AM
What CCI primers are you using? I wouldn't load very many rounds until you ascertain your M-1 doesn't slam fire on you.
It's recommended that you use a mil-spec primer.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

If you're curious and want to safely test your loads for slam-fire tendancies, you can load your en bloc clip by alternating with M2 ball and your loads. Have the last round to be loaded into the clip be the M2 so when you sent the bolt home it doesn't slam fire on you. Fire the gun and if it goes bam bam(fires twice with one pull of the trigger, it's slam firing.

I apologize if you knew of this, but I didn't see it mentioned and thought I'd err on the side of caution. I'd hate to see the gun run away on you.

Regards,

Hobie

Havok7416
September 28, 2012, 08:25 AM
1hobie I am aware of the slamfire issues with the M1. I will be doing quite a bit of testing to ensure that particular problem doesn't arise. I will be using regular large rifle primers (I believe they are CCI 200). I am aware CCI sells mil-spec primers and I may switch to them in the future based on my first few test rounds - I appreciate the input anyway. I have the single-shot adaptor for the M1 which will be used for the initial batch.

cfullgraf
September 28, 2012, 09:12 AM
I will be using regular large rifle primers (I believe they are CCI 200). I am aware CCI sells mil-spec primers...

As long as the primers are installed properly, primarily below flush, the risk of a slam fire in a Garand due to a primer issue is virtually nil.

High primers, in particular, are an invitation to a slam fire.

Rifle problems can still occur on rare occasions and cause slam fires.

When single loading, it is best to not chamber the round by hand and let the bolt slam home. The rifle was not designed to slam home on a chambered cartridge and there is a risk of a slam fire when doing so. Ride the bolt home part way or use a S.L.E.D. which simulates stripping a round from a clip when the bolt is closing.

Use the CCI mil-spec primers if you want , but many, many folks have never had a slam fire with non mil-spec primers, me included.

While slam fires are not to be taken lightly and good safe gun handling practices and good safe reloading practices should always be followed, slam fires suffer a bit from the "Chicken Little syndrome".

1hobie
September 28, 2012, 09:12 AM
Have fun and good shooting to you!:)

dmazur
September 28, 2012, 09:19 AM
While folks are bringing up Garand reloading safety tips, don't forget there is more than "doubling" that can occur with a slamfire. Slamfires can also be OOB, and that can destroy the receiver (and possibly the shooter as well.)

The safety precautions to minimize this risk include all of -


CCI #34 primers (mil-spec sensitivity)
Uniform primer pockets for depth
Seat primers slightly below flush
Full-length resize 0.003" or so less than fired length to datum (Use a gauge to set up your resizing die -- not the "touch shell holder and 1/4 turn" method.)
Use a SLED or load from a clip...don't chamber a round and drop the bolt


This is in addition to proper bullet weight selection, powder type and charge to prevent damaging the op-rod. (As already discussed.)

And, IMO, you should not use testing as a substitute for proven methods. The consequences aren't worth it.

For a thorough discussion on slamfires, use the search function for related posts by "Slamfire"... :)

ArchAngelCD
September 30, 2012, 02:46 AM
What CCI primers are you using? I wouldn't load very many rounds until you ascertain your M-1 doesn't slam fire on you.
It's recommended that you use a mil-spec primer.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

If you're curious and want to safely test your loads for slam-fire tendancies, you can load your en bloc clip by alternating with M2 ball and your loads. Have the last round to be loaded into the clip be the M2 so when you sent the bolt home it doesn't slam fire on you. Fire the gun and if it goes bam bam(fires twice with one pull of the trigger, it's slam firing.

I apologize if you knew of this, but I didn't see it mentioned and thought I'd err on the side of caution. I'd hate to see the gun run away on you.

Regards,

Hobie
I'm using the CCI #34 primers you linked to but during the shortage I also used CCI200 and CCI250 primers and didn't have any problems.

It seems M1 rifles with older worn out springs are more prone to slam fires and when the springs are new. When I first got my M1 I got a lot of slam fires with Surplus Greek ammo so I changed out the springs. I got a complete rebuild spring kit from Wolff Springs (http://www.gunsprings.com/).

Fatelvis
September 30, 2012, 07:54 PM
You can't go wrong with quality 168, 175, 178 or 180 grain bullets and IMR or H 4895 or 4064 with the Garand. Very forgiving to load for.

Havok7416
October 14, 2012, 10:48 PM
I finally managed to squeeze in some range time for the loads I developed. I am happy to report my M1 seemed to do just fine with 45 grain and 46 grain loads of IMR4895. I was shooting my test loads alongside 150 grain American Eagle (M1 Garand) loads and I noticed no difference between the factory loads and my own. I had no issues with the CCI 200 primers.

ArchAngelCD
October 15, 2012, 09:17 AM
I finally managed to squeeze in some range time for the loads I developed. I am happy to report my M1 seemed to do just fine with 45 grain and 46 grain loads of IMR4895. I was shooting my test loads alongside 150 grain American Eagle (M1 Garand) loads and I noticed no difference between the factory loads and my own. I had no issues with the CCI 200 primers.
There's really no way of knowing there was no difference between the loads unless you tested them over a Chrono. Did you and if so what were the velocities. I'm curious about the numbers...

SlamFire1
October 15, 2012, 11:31 AM
While slam fires are not to be taken lightly and good safe gun handling practices and good safe reloading practices should always be followed, slam fires suffer a bit from the "Chicken Little syndrome".

Agree and disagree.

Based on web reports, Garands have the most slamfires of any surplus military rifle. If there were an equivalent amount of MAS semi autos that would probably be the most slamfiring rifle, based on the descriptions on the weight of the firing pin, but there are more Garands in the hands of civilians than at any time and that mechanism has the most slamfire reports of any mechanism.

The basic problem with Garands/M1a’s/M1 carbines/Mini 14’s is that the firing pin is free floating and is able to contact the primer throughout the entire cycle. There are those that claim the receiver bridge provides protection, something that is debatable, however regardless of claimed functionality, the receiver bridge is not a positive barrier and is easily defeated.

Slamfires are a matter of kinetic energy and primer sensitivity. Primers vary in sensitivity within the lot and depending on primer composition chemistry.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Primer%20Sensitivity/ImpactEnergyofMilSpecPrimercompositionV1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Primer%20Sensitivity/Primercompositionsensitivitydifference.jpg

The Garand went through several firing pin changes to reduce kinetic impact energy. The rare round firing pin lasted until the early 40’s and was replaced with the lighter scalloped firing pin. Still enough slamfires occurred with that firing pin that the Italians installed a spring around the firing pin in their Garand based BM rifles.

The M14/M1a has a shorter firing pin, and thus by weight alone, a lighter firing pin, but even so, there are accounts of M14/M1a slamfires, in battery and out, with military primers.

I do not agree using extra power recoil springs in these mechanisms as there are reports of slamfires after a spring change out. Extra power springs may also mess up the timing. Stick with standard recoil springs.

I believe the Government adjusted the firing pin weight and primer composition sensitivity (as much as they could without causing misfires in the other 30-06 weapons around) so the probability of a Garand slamfire would be in the 1:50 or 1:60 million range. This is based on a William Davis recommendation for primer sensitivity and slamfire probability in the Ar15’s.

People win State Lotteries every month with 1:50 or 1:60 million chances, and people die of snakebite (History Channel said about 5 people in the US every year) so the chances of dying of snakebite are about the same. And if you have ever noticed, most people freak over snakes, killing all snakes, regardless of whether they are poisonous or not. Poor snakes.

Slamfire probabilities increase with sensitive primers, Wiliam Davis showed with sensitive primers the slamfire probability in a AR15 increased to 1:9000. There is absolutely no data on what slamfire probabilities with Garands/M1a’s, etc, with any primer, but given a choice of primers, I want to use the 1:50 million primer, not the 1:9000 primer.

The reason is the seriousness of the consequences. While the probability is low the outcome of the event can be very bad. If it is an out of battery slamfire then you will get brass particles all over the place, wood particles, in your hands, in your eyes if you are not wearing glasses, and the destruction of your receiver is a likely outcome. If it is in battery, bad things can still happen. A retired bud of mine remembers when a Soldier loaded a Garand with live ammunition in a M113, before the hatch went down, the Garand discharged, bullet going through the arm of one Soldier, ricocheting off the hatch and back into another. I can’t prove it was a slamfire but an unexpected discharge of a 30-06/308 can have all sorts of unattended consequences. There are also a number of reports of shooters whose palm was cut open by the operating rod handle, because the rifle slamfired before they got their hand out of the way.

Still, regardless of what you do, proper primers, proper sizing, there is a slamfire chance with these weapons. You want to stack the odds so that it is in battery and that nothing downrange gets hit when you chamber a round.

Havok7416
October 15, 2012, 06:51 PM
There's really no way of knowing there was no difference between the loads unless you tested them over a Chrono. Did you and if so what were the velocities. I'm curious about the numbers...
ArchAngel allow me to clarify: my reloads felt and shot the same as factory loads but you are correct. There is no way for me to definitively say they are exactly the same without a chrono (which I don't have). I may try to track one down eventually.

ArchAngelCD
October 16, 2012, 03:07 PM
Well, if the feel the same and shoot to the same POI then you're doing something right! LOL

Havok7416
October 16, 2012, 03:22 PM
Most shot to the same POI but it was cold and rainy outside so I had a few flyers. I would say I had about a 1 to 1.5 inch group from 20 yards. I would have shot from farther away but I didn't want to go trudging through a flooded field. I know I can do better though and I will try again this weekend.

If you enjoyed reading about "Reloading For M1 Garand" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!