Primers won't ignite


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wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 05:00 PM
I have yet buy a bullet puller... gonna have to now.

I reloaded cast bullet for the .30-.30. Plain based 170 grain fn bullet. Cast out of wheelweights. Used 9.5 grains of unique over CCI Large Rifle Primer. Primed on the press using Lee Priming Unit. Most did not fire. Those that did showed great accuracy.

Primers are from the same batch. They appear to be seated deep (can't get any deeper and they are below flush with the case head). Tried to reload the same cartridges multiple times without any luck. Normal indention on the primer when compared with the ones that did fire.

The rifle is a Marlin 336c .30-.30.

Only thing I can think of is to use my Lee Hand Primer to load them to see if priming on the press is my problem, but it hasn't been a problem in the past.

What could be causing the problem? (hoping RC answers since he has a plethora of expertise).

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thump_rrr
September 26, 2012, 05:27 PM
I just had my first CCI 200 not go off on me the other day.
Ive already used over 800 from the same lot without a hitch.
I had loaded up 21 rounds to do some velocity testing with my chronograph.
This was the first time in 1365 rounds fired in my 10BA that it went click when it should have gone bang. I really didnt like that sound.

Normally I use CCI BR-2 primers in that rifle but I wanted to compare the 2 primers.

tightgroup tiger
September 26, 2012, 05:48 PM
If you squashed the primer in the pockets to much and damaged the pellets in the primers, they won't go off. Also if you are handling them with sweaty hands they can be contaminated to the point they won't go off either.

They should only be .004"-.006" below flush. If they are seated deaper than that then you stand a chance of damaging them.

I also know that when the last primer shortage hit there was a lot of complaining about quality control of primers due to a lot of duds. CCI was hit pretty hard by it but they were one of the only ones still supplying them. But I never heard of much more then just a dud here and there.

I would be leaning towards contamination or being damaged by seating them to deep.

Put up some pictures of them.

Just for curiousity you should try factory loads to make sure your firing pin isn't all gunked up inside or something.

Try putting a primer in at as close to flush but bit under and see if it goes off.

Don't put powder or bullets in the case, just the primer and shoot it in your rifle.

You can experiment with it that way to figure your problem out instead of having to pull bullets out of duds.

rcmodel
September 26, 2012, 06:01 PM
You got me, other then what tightgroup tiger already said.

Perhaps you just got a bad batch of primers.
Although I have used CCO primers almost since they have been in business, and never had a bad one yet.

I'd try using the hand primer, as squashing them with a press primer arm has caused me grief in the past, but only over-sensitivity in AR-15's, not misfires.

The other thing I might check is the rifle.

Your marlin uses two firing pins.
One long one in the bolt, (#25) and one short one in the locking bolt.(#26)

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/sid=774/schematicsdetail/336

If one or the other is broken, it could dent the primer, but not actually hit it hard & fast enough to set it off.

rc

kelbro
September 26, 2012, 06:31 PM
And if you are setting the shoulders back too much on the 30-30, the issue could be headspace.

tightgroup tiger
September 26, 2012, 07:08 PM
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm

I doubt the shoulder has anything to do with it. 30-30 headspaces on the rim of the case, not the shoulder even though they are bottle necked.

If the op's cases have thin rims that would cause a headspacing problem and would cause the problems that Kelbro described in his post.

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 07:50 PM
I appreciate all the help. I think I'll use the hand primer to prime 10 cases and load as usual and load 10 on the press with the same primers. I'll also load 10 with a new lot of primers on the press and 10 with a new lot of primers with the hand prime tool. Then I'll get a bullet puller and get busy.

bergmen
September 26, 2012, 08:07 PM
I find a collet type bullet puller to be much preferrable to the inertial (hammer) type unless there isn't enough cylindrical portion of the bullet to grab.

Dan

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 08:22 PM
Most of my bullets are cast and I would wonder if the collets would cause bullet deformity. of course, I could just remelt them down, but if I can save time on that step, I have time for more shooting :)

243winxb
September 26, 2012, 08:33 PM
Is bullet lube home made? Is it hot there? Ammo in the sun?

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 08:40 PM
Homemade lube: beeswax, parrafin, petroleum jelly, and crayons for coloring. Ratio started out 1/3 of beeswax, 1/3 parrafin, 1/3 petroleum jelly, and a couple blue crayons. I didn't like the consistency and changed it here and there, but it' close to the same. Received the recipe off the castbullet forum.

Not hot at all. Loaded them up last night and shot them this morning when it was in the 70's.

I looked at the primers I'm currently using and they seem to be the one's I bought about 4 years ago. I will try my steps above to rule out a bad batch and/or bad seating technique.

bergmen
September 26, 2012, 08:45 PM
Most of my bullets are cast and I would wonder if the collets would cause bullet deformity. of course, I could just remelt them down, but if I can save time on that step, I have time for more shooting :)

I've never tried to pull cast bullets with a collet. They leave no marks on all of the jacketed bullets I've pulled. They are caliber specific (obviously) so they are more spendy than a bludgeon-them-out puller. A lot quieter also.

I do a lot of load development on my four 30 caliber rifles and the collet puller is essential for disassembling loads that don't work like I want them to without damaging the bullets.

Dan

rcmodel
September 26, 2012, 08:46 PM
Homemade lube: beeswax, paraffin, petroleum jelly, and crayons for coloring.That right there could be your problem.

The Vaseline may be migrating to the primers and killing them or the small charge of Unique if they set unfired in hot weather.

You need to pull some that didn't fire, and see if it was the primer or the powder that didn't light off.

rc

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'll do that. Any advice for a good substitute for the petroleum jelly? I like making my own versus buying so that I can be self reliant.

rcmodel
September 26, 2012, 09:01 PM
The NRA recipe is 50/50 Beeswax/Alox.
It don't get no better then that.
You could add some crayon for color if that trips your trigger I suppose.

But I'd leave the Vaseline for chapped nether regions if I was you.
It melts in hot weather and can kill powder & primers if it seeps into them.

rc

earplug
September 26, 2012, 09:11 PM
I had a recent failure to fire with a handload. One edge of the primer cup folded up inside the primer when I seated it. This powdered the pellet. loaded round looked just like all the rest of the fired and unfired cases. I was able to pull the bullet and punch out the primer to inspect the dud.

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 09:17 PM
For the Alox, I am assuming that is different than Lee Alox?

rcmodel
September 26, 2012, 09:31 PM
Yes, it is different.

Here is what you want.
http://www.jakesproducts.com/aloxOutofStock.html

http://www.jakesproducts.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1

rc

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 09:32 PM
Thanks RC, you always seem to have the right answers.

tightgroup tiger
September 26, 2012, 09:45 PM
I appreciate all the help. I think I'll use the hand primer to prime 10 cases and load as usual and load 10 on the press with the same primers. I'll also load 10 with a new lot of primers on the press and 10 with a new lot of primers with the hand prime tool. Then I'll get a bullet puller and get busy.


I would definately waste 20 primers in unloaded shells to prove or disprove the primers concerns first.

$0.60 of primers may speak volumes about this.

If they all fire then you elliminated primer, and press issues, and can move on to the lube.

Unless your bullet lube is half liquid I wouldn't think it could creep from the bullet to the primer, just over night. Unless you had it on your fingers and handled the primers at the same time.
That seems unlikely also since you really don't have to handle primers with the Lee hand primer I'm thinking of.

I would definately change your lube recipe like RC said.

jjjitters
September 26, 2012, 09:47 PM
If the primers would have gone off, chances are the bullets would have come out,crimped cases may stop it, but I find it hard to believe that it would be lube. I use it also, many recipes use ingredients(olive oil, stp,trans fluid,parafin,red grease,on and on) that can stop powder from igniting but there isn't enough lube in the grooves to contaminate ALL the powder, so some would likely ignite.My guess anyways

Captcurt
September 26, 2012, 09:52 PM
Be careful with your lube. The only time that I have had ftf was from lube contamination.

gman82001
September 26, 2012, 10:40 PM
I had some cci primers that would no go bang and guys said it was because of the encore not having a strong enough hammer strike and cci are hard they recommended federal and haven't had a problem since my guide gun shoots cci fine but may wanna try a softer primer just incase

SSN Vet
September 26, 2012, 11:06 PM
has any one worked the trigger on you 336?

cutting a loop off of each end of the main spring is a common "trigger job" mod on these rifles.

It can leave you with a week hammer strike, however... and dented, but not ignited primers.

wgaynor
September 26, 2012, 11:23 PM
Not that I know of, but it was purchased used from my LGS. If these cheaper ideas don't work, I might take it to someone of more knowledge than me to rule that out.

Note: Works great with factory ammo, so that leaves me thinking that I am the problem.

ArchAngelCD
September 27, 2012, 12:34 AM
I had some cci primers that would no go bang and guys said it was because of the encore not having a strong enough hammer strike and cci are hard they recommended federal and haven't had a problem since my guide gun shoots cci fine but may wanna try a softer primer just incase
Any firearm in good operation condition will ignite any primer. The same CCI primers we buy are used in CCI, Blaser and Speer factory ammo since all are under the ATK blanket. Federal is also part of ATK but as we know they have their own primers.

ArchAngelCD
September 27, 2012, 12:36 AM
Even though primers are rarely defective they could have been damaged after they left the factory. It sure sounds like contaminated primers or powder to me, especially since the rifle fires the factory ammo just fine.

GP100man
September 27, 2012, 12:50 AM
Look for a recipe called "lithi-bee" I use this with a bit of carnauba wax & lanolin .

If all else fails when ya make ya lube roll a small ball & place it on cardboard thru the temps incountered & see if any leaks on the cardboard .

Or just cantact White Label Lubes & order some Carnauba Red.It needs a little heat (100-105f) to flow but it works & I can`t make my own as cheap as they sell there`s !!

Since `81 I`ve had 3 misfires , 1 was missing powder(reloading tired/sleepy) & 2 with contaminated powder from Lymans Ideal (the black moly stuff) on cast boolits sitting in the tool box on the truck in the sunshine.

popper
September 27, 2012, 03:55 PM
Just use wire cutter and a short PVC pipe section to pull them. You will have to recast them as they are resized on loading. Although the 30-30 was designed to head space off the rim - it doesn't! Don't bother arguing cause you would be wrong. Check your sizer die and set it for the longest HS that will chamber, minus a few thou. for tolerance.

kelbro
September 27, 2012, 04:12 PM
Although the 30-30 was designed to head space off the rim - it doesn't! Don't bother arguing cause you would be wrong.

Thanks popper. My headspace post earlier was based on my own personal experience, just didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

AABEN
September 27, 2012, 04:14 PM
I have yet buy a bullet puller... gonna have to now.

I reloaded cast bullet for the .30-.30. Plain based 170 grain fn bullet. Cast out of wheelweights. Used 9.5 grains of unique over CCI Large Rifle Primer. Primed on the press using Lee Priming Unit. Most did not fire. Those that did showed great accuracy.

Primers are from the same batch. They appear to be seated deep (can't get any deeper and they are below flush with the case head). Tried to reload the same cartridges multiple times without any luck. Normal indention on the primer when compared with the ones that did fire.

The rifle is a Marlin 336c .30-.30.

Only thing I can think of is to use my Lee Hand Primer to load them to see if priming on the press is my problem, but it hasn't been a problem in the past.

What could be causing the problem? (hoping RC answers since he has a plethora of expertise).
I have had some CCI 300 that does not fire. I dump then in some oil then trash them. WILL NOT buy any more CCI

gamestalker
September 27, 2012, 06:48 PM
Wow, I've never had a mis-fire in over 30 years of reloading, including for the 30-30. And as to CCI, I use them about 95% of the time.
GS

jcwit
September 27, 2012, 09:01 PM
I have had some CCI 300 that does not fire. I dump then in some oil then trash them. WILL NOT buy any more CCI


Can't say I've NEVER had a primer misfire, I know for a fact I have. Have no idea what the brand was tho. I've reloaded 100's of thousands of ammo over the last 50 years that I've been reloading.

If I never bought any thing that ever gave me a problem, by today I'd not be able to buy anything!

All companies have flub-ups. Such is life.

tightgroup tiger
September 27, 2012, 09:16 PM
If I never bought any thing that ever gave me a problem, by today I'd not be able to buy anything!

All companies have flub-ups. Such is life.

I would say so. But we don't know if the primers here are even at fault.
The OP hasn't posted anything indicating that yet.

I'm waiting to hear what he figures out.

wgaynor
September 27, 2012, 09:48 PM
Gonna have to standby for a report of findings. I wont have range time till monday. Will prime 10 cases without bullet or propellant first to see what it does when fired.

Arkansas Paul
September 27, 2012, 11:42 PM
Gonna have to standby for a report of findings. I wont have range time till monday.


Let us know for sure. I'm interested to see if the problem was contamination by the Vaseline. That's what my money is on.

wgaynor
October 1, 2012, 08:02 PM
Wasn't able to get to the range and only had limited "man cave" time, but I pulled all the bullets, dumped all powder, and deprimed a few cases. Looks like the primers were seated deeper on the ones that wouldn't fire than those that did fire. They were well below flush. Never had this happen when priming on the press with the .44 magnum. I do all other priming off the press. Looks like I'll need to start doing all my priming off the press.

Gonna compare the inside of the primers that didn't fire to a fresh primer and see what I notice.

hentown
October 1, 2012, 08:13 PM
Wouldn't it be pretty simple to just test the primers, without powder and bullets, to see if the primers are the problem? Just prime some cases and fire them off. IF they go "pop", it's not the primers, or, as has been mentioned, your KY is ruining the mix.

That doesn't seem like a lot of powder for a 30-30. Is there a danger of KB, or is that just internet lore?

wgaynor
October 1, 2012, 08:22 PM
Plan on charging and firing 10 primed cases after my trip to the VA hospital tomorrow. Having trouble walking right now.

Also plan on casting and loading up 50 rounds this weekend to rule out the theory of the Lube neutralizing the primers.

With cast plain based bullets, I'm keeping my velocities under 1500fps. Unique works great in small amounts for this. I also use it in my .30-.06, m91/30, .44, and 9mm. Gotta love versatility. These are my plinking rounds...for defense/hunting I use different projectiles and propellants.

Hondo 60
October 2, 2012, 01:18 AM
Just had 2 Remington Small Rifle primers that refused to ignite.

The primer strike is just as deep as those that ignited.
So it wasn't a case of not being set deep enough.

Sometimes poop occurs.

wgaynor
October 4, 2012, 10:46 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. I was crushing the primers on the press. Once I eliminated that variable and primed with a hand tool, I've had no more problems.

jjjitters
October 5, 2012, 06:35 AM
Thats good to hear the issue has been found. I've hand primed on the couch for years,I've never cared for doing it in on the press.
No need to change your lube as long as your not getting any leading either.

Hondo 60
October 5, 2012, 01:08 PM
I have yet buy a bullet puller... gonna have to now.

No shame in that.
Almost all of us have had to buy one.
Most of us because of our own mistakes.

You can't help it if you ran into some bad primers.

wch
October 5, 2012, 02:56 PM
Have you checked to see if you have a broken firing pin?

tightgroup tiger
October 5, 2012, 06:42 PM
Great to hear you got it figured out. Glad we could help.

wgaynor
October 5, 2012, 07:39 PM
Firing pin is fine. It has no problem firing factory ammo

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