870 Actions


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ZGunner
September 27, 2012, 11:41 PM
Is there a difference between actions on the 870 line up (Express, Tactical, Wingmaster, Police)? I know the Magnum vs non magnum there is a differnece in ejection port legnth.

Bottom line, are they all the same shotgun wearing different stocks and barrels?

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Jeff F
September 28, 2012, 01:55 AM
There is no difference in the ejection port lengths, the receivers on the 2 3/4 and 3 inch guns are the same. the difference is the ejector and ejector spring. You can retrofit a 2 3/4 inch receiver with the magnum ejector and spring and with a 3 inch chambered barrel shoot the 3 inch loads.

shiftyer1
September 28, 2012, 02:07 AM
finish and quality

Virginian
September 28, 2012, 07:01 AM
Bottom line, are they all the same shotgun wearing different stocks and barrels?
Not exactly. The Express - and the Tacticals I have seen are basically Expresses with different do dads added - has a lot less final polishing and fitting. It works, but it is built to compete at a price point. And it employs several MIM (molded) parts where the Police and Wingmaster utilize forged and machined versions. Some police versions have a stronger magazine spring and I am thinking there was one more part I can't remember at the moment.

AI&P Tactical
September 28, 2012, 08:43 AM
They are the same. There is nothing inside to polish. Anyone who says there is does not know the weapon and anyone charging money saying they do this is a thief. So before anyone says there is something to polish you should be ready to name the part and explain how and why it is polished. Since you can't, I don't expect anyone to come back with such false information.

There is only one 870 and the differ only by finish furniture and a couple small parts. The internal parts difference in the EXpress is only $6 less then the Police and Wingmaster. That is for the MIM extractor.

Fred Fuller
September 28, 2012, 12:05 PM
870 receivers of the same gauge and receiver code differ only in external finish. The receiver code (last letter in the serial #) says how the shotgun was originally set up as far as the shell length was concerned. That's pretty much just a matter of what ejector is installed in the receiver, as far as the receiver is concerned.

Internal parts may differ, but the receivers are pretty much the same, with the above caveats.

jaguarxk120
September 28, 2012, 01:58 PM
If the recievers are the same. Then why does a Express sound and feel like a rusty chain, or as if it has a bunch of rocks in it when operated???

A Wingmaster is smooth and slick when operated.

Deus Machina
September 28, 2012, 03:42 PM
From a quick examination of a friend's relative's 870's, the difference is in the finish, furniture, and how much they polish contact surfaces inside.

The express felt rough compared to the hairloom wingmaster. I assume locking lugs of some sort (I'm not familiar with 870s) and the contact points on the pump assembly.

This could just be that the Wingmaster was a lot older, worn in, and perhaps better polished to begin with. On the other hand, the chamber was very obviously smoother than the Express's, which would explain the 'sticking bolt' complaints I've heard about new Express models. That tends to clear up when someone stops using steel-based shells or polishes the chamber up.

oldguy870
September 28, 2012, 04:00 PM
AIP hit the nail on the head.

My Wingmaster is just as smooth as my Express.

I love the 870 shotgun. I just wish they cycled the steel hulled Federals better. I have had mine polished and even had the chambers recut by a gunsmith. They still hang up sometimes. My Benellis each the Federal steel hulled shells like candy.

jmr40
September 28, 2012, 04:02 PM
The 3.5" guns have an elongated ejection port, but the receiver is the same as the others.

RickMD
September 28, 2012, 04:09 PM
One's pretty and the other is ugly.

AI&P Tactical
September 28, 2012, 06:27 PM
The winer is RickMD, could not have said it better.

Remember the Remington 700 ADL? It was the exact same weapon as the CDL or BDL except it had an inexpensive synthetic stock and no floor plate. Same rifle but without the beautiful stocks on the CDL and BDL. The only reason the ADL went away is other manufactures were cutting into Remington's market share and they needed a cheaper version to complete at the lower end. The came a series of 710 7 this and that and who knows what is next. But those are not 700's. The entry level 700 is now the 700SPS and it is every bit as good as any 700.

So much of this is "Marketing". For Example: The Remington Special Purpose is simply the same applied matte finish as the Express but the metal is polished more before the application. I learned this by asking why the same barrel labled Special Purpose was $40 more then the exact same barrel labeled Express. Man that is a lot of polishing. If you look real close at both barrels you can even tell the Speical Purpose finish appears smoother. Like that matters. Here is a case of a buyer thinking he is getting a better finish when it is still the same Express finish.

Much of the pricing at Remington would drive you up wall if you did not know why. For example: The 18.5" Matte finish bead sight Express barrel retails from Remington for $131 and this is the barrel that comes on the Express HD 4+1 and used to come on the 6+1. Yet, the 18.5" Parkerized bead sight barrel that comes standard on the 870 Police retails from Remington for $101. Yep, the Express barrel cost $30 more then the Police barrel.

Now I am having fun. That 18.5" Parkerized Police that cost $101, get that in 20" Parkerized bead sight and it is $150. However, the 18.5" Bead sight blued Wingmaster barrel is $150 and if you get that barrel in 20" it is $117. Anyone confused yet? And yes, these type of difference occur all through the Remington parts list as I purchase over 60K in parts alone each year with a high of over $80K in 2009 thanks to O'boma so I know the parts list very well.

Now for the answer. It is a combination of Marketing and units manufactured. At least that was the answer I go when I was at Ilion. So with the facts above sinking in to some of you who can't accept the Express, the Police and Wingmaster as the same weapon I invite you to look over the Remington parts list. For Example: Stipped Parkerized Police receiver $247. Stripped Express receiver $247. Stipped Wingmaster receiver $247. Express breech bolt $97, Police Breech bolt $97, Chrome Wingmaster breech bolt $97. and of course there are only two forend tube assemblies made, one for the Super Mag and one for all other 870's and there is a $5 difference in the trigger plate assemblies between the Police and Express as one if polmer and one cast aluminum but all the parts are the same, every freaking one but a little black spring, but the Wingmaster cast aluminum trigger plate is $84 same as the Express. If you built a 4+1 police and 4+1 Express with the bead sight barrels and with the exact same stocks the 4+1 Express would cost you $26 more to build the 4+1 Police. See any Marketing here?

Virginian
September 28, 2012, 06:33 PM
Caveat - there have been Special Purpose models of Remington shotguns that sported a genuine Parkerized finish. I know, I sold several, and my buddy still has his.

Fred Fuller
September 28, 2012, 07:49 PM
All I know is that I will buy every used older model 870 Express that I can find at a good price. Unfortunately 'good price' is getting harder and harder to find these days, and seems to keep going up and up. Can't imagine why that is...

Stripped down to the receiver group, it's possible to put together almost anything you want as far as a pump shotgun is concerned with an 870 receiver. Furniture, barrels, sights, accessories, magazine capacity, name it and it can probably be done (with enough money anyway). It's like the Lego set of shotguns.

jmr40
September 28, 2012, 11:00 PM
The only reason the ADL went away is other manufactures were cutting into Remington's market share

The ADL never went away. They are not cataloged, but are all over the place in most of the big box stores such as Walmart, Sportsmans Warehouse, and Dicks. The blue versions with a cheap scope are around $350, $480 in stainless. Much better choice for only a little more money than the 770.

AI&P Tactical
September 28, 2012, 11:12 PM
Still around. Good to know. I guess those stores order them as they are no longer part of the Remington product line. You can have any veriation of a Remington made for you as long as you buy a 500 minimum and the stores you mentioned sure buy that many. Or those are left overs and will soon be gone.

78tsubaki
September 29, 2012, 11:16 AM
AI&P is the resident expert on this subject. I agree that typically little or no difference exists. I have learned a lot from his posts.
I own new and well worn examples of express and police 870s.
I purchased an express a few years ago that surprised me. I disassembled to clean it before I shot it like we all do:) I found 2 small burrs that I was able to remove with a light file and sand paper. These 2 small burrs might have been caught in a police build maybe not. They might have affected the way the gun performed maybe not. One burr was on the bolt. I guess I am just obsessive but man that express eats everything I feed it.

greyling22
September 29, 2012, 12:08 PM
ummmm, I've got to agree with jaguar. At least comparing an older wingmaster to old or new expresses. The old wingmasters (I haven't handled a new one) are slick and smooth: polished bolts, blued reveivers, it's nice. The older expresses have a rough kind of parkerized finish, they drag and grind, but they work, and they were still slicker than the ones I saw 3 years ago (laminated wood stocks). I don't know if anything has changed in the past 3 years.

mechanically I think they're all the same.

AI&P Tactical
September 29, 2012, 12:28 PM
thanks for the compliment but I am sure Fred has forgot more then I know so I am by no means the resident expert. I just know the Remington shotgun because I used one for all those years and I go to Ilion and get the facts. And I work on hundreds of them a year in all models, even the Super Mag and the Marine. Heck do something that many times and something has to stick.

As for the Wingmaster being smoother. Yes, out of the box. The internal of the Wingmaster receiver is blued and this is smooth from the get go in the receiver channels the action bars slide in. All forend tube assemblies made have the same finish except of course for the Marine. So what little contact occurs inside the receiver is between the action bars and those channels. With a parkerized or matter finish weaopn this area become smoothed out with round count. Soon there is not difference between the feel of your Wingmaster and an Express or P model. So a guy shooting an older Wingmaster with a high round count is naturally going to say it is smoother then an Express. But once that Express has the same round count they are the same. They have to be people. Same exact parts.

If you want an un-smooth 870 get the Marine. I don't know how many rounds it takes to smooth one of them out. I hate that model and stopped building them as Parkerizing is just as good in that enviroment.

Fred Fuller
September 29, 2012, 03:11 PM
I just work on (mostly) my own 870s - I don't see dozens or hundreds of them in a year go across the bench like AI&P does (I can only afford one at a time :D). I'm definitely no expert by any means, I've just seen a few things along the way. But there's still lots more for me to learn - if anything, I'm a student, not an expert.

Dave McCracken
September 29, 2012, 06:37 PM
It's like AI&P said. The only Express here is the 20 gauge the kids learned on before I put a full length stock on. After 1500 rounds or so, it's almost as smooth as my venerable 12 bore Wingmasters. Another 1K rounds should do it.

content
September 29, 2012, 06:50 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // Would someone please explain the difference in the 20ga. LW suffix receiver and the X.
Why the barrels are not interchangable like the rest.

oldguy870
September 29, 2012, 07:58 PM
I have 6 870s. I have had the chambers recut on 3 of them. I have done AIP's polish job on all of them at least 3 times each.

I took my Wingmaster and two of my Expresses out today. I fired 25 rounds of AA Winchester brass loads through each gun. No problems. Every gun fired perfectly.

I then tried the Federal steel based rounds you buy at Walmart for $23 for 100 rounds. Immediate problems in the Wingmaster and one of the Express guns. Sticky chamber. I have to slam the gun on the ground to eject the round.

I think the bottom line is that the 870 has problems with steel base shotgun shells. Both the Wingmaster and one Express had the chamber recut and polished. Then, I did AIP's steel wool polish job.

My Benelli M2s eat these rounds by the thousands.

Fred Fuller
September 29, 2012, 08:17 PM
content,

See if http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=268616 answers your questions - if not, elbow us and we'll try again :D

AI&P Tactical
September 29, 2012, 08:18 PM
Yes, the LW is a smaller size receiver and the older version of the 20ga 870 are build on the 12ga receiver. Good news is on those older weapons any 12ga stock fits, bad news is they don't make the barrels any more. Since the receiver is a 12ga on these older models the barrel would have to be the same size as the 12ga at the barrel root where it fits into the receiver.

Sorry was grilling and came back to answer this and did not noticed it was answered.

content
September 30, 2012, 06:56 AM
TYVM those are perfect descriptions.

I'll not soon forget the dissapointment of finding a rifle sighted 20ga. slug barrel and it not fitting my 870, 20 gauges.

ZGunner
October 1, 2012, 12:49 AM
Thank you for all the replies. I figured it was mostly marketing and different stamps. I love the 870. I now have two, a 20" tactical pistol grip, I've had for about 2 years now and a bare bones 20" with wood grips that I just got today.

I do have a problem with the new one however. After buying it my finacee was shooting it and had a shell get stuck in the barrel after firing. Sure that the round was actually fired I set to gettin it out. After a lot of cussing and breaking a knife point (duh - wrong tool for the job) I wound up breaking it down and pushing a wood dowel through the barrel to puch out the spent shell.

After reassembling I put 8 more rounds through it with 0 problems.

What would cause this?

I'm thinking cheap ammo (Estate) and possibly cheap barrel (Target Sports Tactical). Maybe polishing the chamber and using better ammo would prevent this from happening in the future?

jaguarxk120
October 1, 2012, 08:54 AM
Cheap shells.

oldguy870
October 1, 2012, 11:40 AM
The bottom line on the 870

Many don't like steel based shells. Sometimes polishing the chamber helps. Many times it does not. Shooting brass based shells fixes the problem. Brass shells cost more.

btg3
October 1, 2012, 06:08 PM
After 1500 rounds or so, it's almost as smooth as my venerable 12 bore Wingmasters.
I respectfully submit that there is a quicker and cheaper path to way to "smooth" than 100 boxes of shells. Understand the mechanism, identify where friction can be reduced, and reduce it. Works on old/new and Express/Wingmaster. First step, is to straighen the action bars -- even on a new 870. The caveat is, if not done right, it will make matters worse -- and I've straightened out some of those, too.

Dave McCracken
October 2, 2012, 03:52 PM
btg3....

Like all my 870s, this one has had.....

The action bars straightened. They've also has the shiny spots polished with Crocksticks, the flashing left from stamping removed meticulously and the corners radiused slightly.

The WMs here date from 1950, 1955, and two from 1973. All have been treated similarly, but the WMs round counts are higher.

They shuck like Butter, the Express will also.

content
October 2, 2012, 05:17 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // A 1950, outstanding,,, my earliest is a 1953,,, still hope to find a first year though.

btg3
October 4, 2012, 06:47 PM
Shooting brass based shells fixes the problem
Out of curiosity, I took a magnet to the base of a variety of shells, most were magnetic, so I googled and found this...

Most of the economically priced shotgun ammunition made today has a mild steel base plated to look like solid brass. Ammunition with this steel base does not eject as well as that which has the all brass base. I think the reason for this is the steel base does not contract or shrink back to its original dimensions nearly as much as does the brass base after firing. To determine what the base is made of, just put a magnet against the base of the shotgun hull. An all brass base will not be attracted to the magnet. The Peters Blue and Green Magic cases, Remington STS and most of the Winchester AA cases have the all brass base.

SHOOTING THE "COWBOY" DOUBLE SHOTGUN
by Deadly Redly
From The Cowboy Chronicle, June 1990, The Single Action Shooters Society Newsletter



Of course that was 25 years ago regarding ejection from a SxS coach gun. Even so, it now seems that all-steel without a brass wash is even more economical to produce.

Perhaps lighter loads with steel bases give less trouble? I reload them with 7/8 oz of shot, 1200 fps, 7100psi and they run great in an 18-1/2 Mossy barrel on my 870. Or perhaps it's the barrel, or... ???

oldguy870
October 5, 2012, 08:51 AM
The steel thing is hit and miss. I have some of my polished 870s that work pretty good with the Wally World Federal ammo. However, my Wingmaster and one of my 870s with chambers that have been recut by a gunsmith do not work with steel.

They all have been polished. Brass shells work fine in all.


P.S. The president of Remington should be fired for letting guns out of the factory like this. My Benelli eats any shell you give it.

jaguarxk120
October 5, 2012, 09:48 AM
If the steel shells are sticking in the chamber, I'd try giving them a swipe of car wax around the dase.

After all paper shells were waxed paper and that wax left a very slight coating in the chamber when fired.

btg3
October 5, 2012, 11:08 AM
Hmmm... Did any paper shells have a steel base or were they all brass or at least brass-wash over steel?

jaguarxk120
October 5, 2012, 11:16 AM
Paper shells usually had a brass base.

But the wax from the paper coated the chamber. Thats why paper shells have that "unique smell" to them when fired. It's a mix of the burning powder and wax from the paper shell.

btg3
October 5, 2012, 05:40 PM
For reloading paper shells that got stepped on, I recall re-conditioning them in a hot tube press to melt the wax.

...anyway, my question was a rhetorical attempt to dismiss wax as the reason paper shells didn't stick. But as you say, "try giving them a swipe of car wax" and prove me wrong.

Fred Fuller
October 5, 2012, 09:22 PM
Thats why paper shells have that "unique smell"

Last paper shells I had were two boxes I received as a college graduation present in 1974 from a gentleman in the community I went hunting with sometimes. Plastic had pretty well taken over by then, but he knew I would appreciate the paper and made a special effort to get them for me. I still have some of those hulls.

I don't know of anything that can transport me back through time faster than the smell of a freshly fired paper shotgun shell...

Gun Geezer
October 6, 2012, 08:16 AM
There is a difference on the inside. Can I name the part? No.

I have seen many Wingmasters. All shot very well. Never any issues.

I have been around a few Expresses. I recall 2 that locked up tight as a tick with a live shell in them! Don't know what they ever did with them. could not even fire it to resolve the safety issue.

In general, the Express just is rougher all around. You get what you pay for.

btg3
October 6, 2012, 09:41 AM
Did you try those same shells in a WM? Yadda, yadda....

Gun Geezer
October 6, 2012, 12:07 PM
Did you try those same shells in a WM? Yadda, yadda....
They weren't my guns, so I don't know what the shells brand was. In any case, i have never had a shell hang up in my WM or heard of such with anybody else.

Gun Geezer
October 6, 2012, 12:08 PM
You got to wonder. If a Express was just as well built and just as reliable as a Police or WM, why would LE Departments spend the extra on the WM or Police models?

They wouldn't.

Virginian
October 6, 2012, 12:21 PM
$800 hammer syndrome? Its our money, why should they care.

btg3
October 6, 2012, 06:28 PM
why would LE Departments spend the extra...?
No incentive to do otherwise. If they fail to spend their budget, then their budget gets reduced.

oldguy870
October 6, 2012, 08:41 PM
Gun Geezer, you would be amazed! I get calls all the time in September from government agencies wanting to buy lists of "stuff" because they have to spend their funding before October. If they don't spend their money, they lose it AND they get less money next year.

Basic principle of human nature - when people spend money that is not theirs, they tend to care less about spending it wisely.

Glock 124g
January 13, 2013, 02:29 AM
Hi folks,

I am about 5' 4" and while I don't have any problems with short stroking my 870 super magnum on birds or high clay I the long reach to the forend is awkward.

I have some short stroking problems on rabbits, low clays, or competition/HD practice using a shorter LOP and am 18" barrel.

the shorter LOP and training have helped, but the reach to the forend is still awkward. A Magpul forend would help but Magpul and most aftermarket forends (Magpul, Speedfeed etc.) will not allow the super magnum to cycle with out cutting them shorter or some dremel tool work

The supper magnum requires a longer pump stroke and different forend tube assemblies, forends, mag tubes, bolts, etc to accommodate the longer 3 1/2 shells.

I would like to know if I can use a non super magnum forend tube assembly and forend with a super magnum carrier and bolt to allow a shorter reach to the forend and a shorter pump stroke.

I don't have any non super magnum parts to see what what parts are interchangeable or simply modifiable to fit a super magnum.

If it will work I will put a Magpul forend on for HD/Competition and keep my super magnum wood forend for 3 1/2" for geese.

Some part number are below for reference. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks


Remington Forend Tube Assembly 870 12 Gauge Super Magnum #: F102327

Remington Slide Block 870 Police, Super Magnum 12 Gauge #: F401024

Remington Action Bar Lock 870 12 Gauge Super Mag #: F99700

Remington Forend Tube Assembly New-Style 870 12 Gauge #: F102324

Remington Slide Block Remington 870 12, 12 Gauge Magnum #: F401023

Remington Action Bar Lock 870 12 Gauge Remington #: F18849

jonnyringo
January 13, 2013, 08:24 AM
Owned around a dozen Express and Wingmasters through the years and have NEVER had a feeding or ejection problem. And, the actions are smooth whether they were Express or Wingmaster. Sometimes I am amazed at how many problems people have with great guns designed perfectly. Maybe I am just weird.

Gun Geezer
January 13, 2013, 08:56 AM
They are the same. There is nothing inside to polish. Anyone who says there is does not know the weapon and anyone charging money saying they do this is a thief. So before anyone says there is something to polish you should be ready to name the part and explain how and why it is polished. Since you can't, I don't expect anyone to come back with such false information.

There is only one 870 and the differ only by finish furniture and a couple small parts. The internal parts difference in the EXpress is only $6 less then the Police and Wingmaster. That is for the MIM extractor.
Well now, I don't know about that.

My Wingmaster has an aluminum trigger group. The Expresses I have seen have a polymer/whatever non-metalic trigger groups.

The Expresses are not nearly as smooth out of the box as a Wingmaster. Not sure what the internal difference is, but there absolutley is something. You have to know that with the price difference between a Wingmaster and Express, there has to be some major differences.

Gun Geezer
January 13, 2013, 08:58 AM
Gun Geezer, you would be amazed! I get calls all the time in September from government agencies wanting to buy lists of "stuff" because they have to spend their funding before October. If they don't spend their money, they lose it AND they get less money next year.

Basic principle of human nature - when people spend money that is not theirs, they tend to care less about spending it wisely.
Can't argue with that. "Agencies" tend to spend.

Uniquedot
January 13, 2013, 10:29 AM
there has to be some major differences.

The major differences are the metal trigger guard and the external finish of the steel as well as the quality and finish of the wood...walnut on the wingmaster and high polished blued metal finish.

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