Shoving the barrel into an attacker????


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19-3Ben
September 28, 2012, 08:50 AM
Ok so everyone in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676991) got all worked up over the prospect of sticking the muzzle of a revolver barrel into a bad guy and pulling the trigger.

We've all seen barrels bulged due to obstructions (or at least seen pictures of it). I know that clothing and flesh are softer than the steel of the gun, so they give first, but is it valid to be concerned that with a very serious barrel obstruction (a person) at the end of a barrel, you might have a recipe for blowing up the gun in your hand if you do that?
Obviously it would hurt the shootee somethin' awful to have that 18,000psi from a .38 blast into him. But would I risk blowing up the gun and injuring myself if I have true barrel contact?

Then, I wonder if the barrel were ported would that have an effect by letting that back-pressure vent?

Of course this is all academic, but I'm curious to know, and don't want to risk my guns or hands by sticking one of my guns into a water balloon and pulling the trigger to test this!

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mesinge2
September 28, 2012, 08:54 AM
This is just an assumption with no research but I would assume that with a revolver's cylinder gap the danger to the weapon would be minimal as the pressure that is forced back would have somewhere to bleed off.

SFsc616171
September 28, 2012, 09:46 AM
Revolvers do not receive any damage from contact shots. However, it would do well, to retire to a cleaning bench, to clean the firearm of all collected "residue" collected, as a result of such shot.

The bullet, upon the cartridge being ignited, will continue, through the clothing, just as advertised or portrayed with gel block impacts. The ball of ignited powder gas will follow into the opened flesh and temporary cavity, at temperature, cauterizing and expanding the immediate wound area.

There will be no damage, or injury, to the one performing the shot. In fact, it is firearms instructor Michael DeBethencourt that advises for a contact shot, always aim to the groin.

As a historical note: ".38 Special Round Nose lead 158-grain bullet from Jack Ruby's Colt Cobra, shot into Lee Harvey Oswald, took out Oswald's spleen, pancreas, right kidney, a few arteries, and the diaphragm."

If a contact shot, made with law enforcement's most disliked round in .38 Special history, did all that to Oswald, and it is is all I have loaded in my snub nose revolver of choice, at that precious moment in my life, I'll aim to the groin.

W.E.G.
September 28, 2012, 09:58 AM
At the point where an attacker is so close to you that a contact shot is a possibility, the LAST thing you are thinking about is whether your gun might get damaged.

AMHIK.

The gun won't "blow up."
It might malfunction.

Have a plan for clearing malfunctions, and try to keep your head.

303tom
September 28, 2012, 10:33 AM
That would have bolwed up in my face !
Would`nt have done my finger much good ither...........


It`s just the first thing that came to me........

X-Rap
September 28, 2012, 11:21 AM
In one of the recent bear threads I suggested contact shots if one was aiding someone being mauled in a crowded campground, of course if you are the one being mauled there would be no question on the contact shot.

19-3Ben
September 28, 2012, 11:40 AM
At the point where an attacker is so close to you that a contact shot is a possibility, the LAST thing you are thinking about is whether your gun might get damaged.

AMHIK.

As I said, it's purely academic.

Greg528iT
September 28, 2012, 11:54 AM
Myth Busters had an episode where they plugged up barrels. Some bulged or ripped, but only after some real serious plugging, and on a closed breach barrel. A revolver with the cylinder gap, there is at least some release. Wrong side of the bullet I know, but.

Also, if you are THAT close and NEED to pull the trigger, harm to the gun would be my last concern.

Someone said to clean after. Ummmm you won't have a chance. Even in a good shoot, the pistol will be in police possession, at least until you are cleared, a couple months for sure. The rust from the blood will ruin it more than any barrel issues.

I also thought of the Support Your Local Sheriff movie (one of my favorites).. Now I MIGHT worry about an old Colt SAA and it's metallurgy an a chance of it popping the barrel. :D

rcmodel
September 28, 2012, 12:57 PM
A contact shot is not the same thing as a bore obstruction or plugged barrel.

Air forced out of the muzzle ahead of the bullet at high speed and higher pressure will move the contacted object, or the gun, enough to allow pressure to escape and result in no damage to the barrel.

On the other hand, a truly plugged bore can't get the plug out of it's own way fast enough to prevent a bulged barrel when the air is compressed between it and the oncoming bullet.

rc

98Redline
September 28, 2012, 04:40 PM
The concept of worry whether or not you are going to bulge your barrel if you put the muzzle against a bad guy and pull the trigger seems completely asinine.

If I am in the situation where 1) I feel it necessary to employ deadly force and 2) am close enough to put the muzzle in his ribs, then the thought of whether or not the gun will be damaged ranks somewhere down around the thought of whether I remembered to put the cap back on the Sharpie sitting on my desk.

Now all of that being said if this guy didn't blow up his barrel, then neither will you.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6528252/1

19-3Ben
September 28, 2012, 04:45 PM
If I am in the situation where 1) I feel it necessary to employ deadly force and 2) am close enough to put the muzzle in his ribs, then the thought of whether or not the gun will be damaged ranks somewhere down around the thought of whether I remembered to put the cap back on the Sharpie sitting on my desk.

Ok, let's do it again. Everyone repeat after me: "The question is purely academic." now your turn... "The question is purely academic." (the group chimes in)

I'll make myself even more clear. If I have to defend my life, I will do so and really don't care if a gun gets destroyed, confiscated by the cops, etc...
I was asking because a) I'm interested, and b) something that MAY make a difference is if the gun would blow up and severely injure my hand in the process, as that would impede my ability to fight for my life.

I really appreciate the answers guys. Thanks. Seems like the academic issue has a consensus; a rare thing on a gun forum.
rcmodel- thank you for taking the time to actually describe the physics of it and how obstructions damage guns and why this would not.

Cosmoline
September 28, 2012, 04:52 PM
However, it would do well, to retire to a cleaning bench, to clean the firearm of all collected "residue" collected, as a result of such shot.

To be blunt, if you shoot someone in the torso with a .357 at contact range you're likely to have to clean "residue" out of your mouth and nose as well. It's not going to be pretty. But if it saves your life, that's a small price to pay.

1911Tuner
September 28, 2012, 09:28 PM
A contact shot won't damage the gun. The pressure "vents" into the bullet hole. A contact shot with an "anemic" .38 Special LRN is pretty nasty because of the gas plug entering the body cavity. Bad JuJu.

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
September 28, 2012, 10:42 PM
I would imagine that it would have about the same effect as a "bangstick" has when used against a large fish . The expanding gases do more damage than the projectile ! Kevin

ljnowell
September 28, 2012, 10:55 PM
Someone said to clean after. Ummmm you won't have a chance. Even in a good shoot, the pistol will be in police possession, at least until you are cleared, a couple months for sure. The rust from the blood will ruin it more than any barrel issues.


Not necessarily. My best friend shot himself, contact shot to the head. The gun sat in storage for three months before they released it to his parents, who brought it to me. I cleaned it thoroughly(not something I EVER want to do again). No finish damage at all.

DPris
September 29, 2012, 03:47 AM
You may expect the possibility of a malfunction with an autopistol from tissue "sprayback", but a revolver should still function fine for successive shots.

I think I recall one of Ayoob's slaughterhouse excursions that jammed a 1911 after a contact shot to a cow's head.
Denis

BSA1
September 29, 2012, 10:33 AM
Since my previous post may have started this thread I thought I would expand on the details of a shooting a friend of mine was involved in.

Background;

First of all I got all of this information first hand and since he is a close friend he was very open about what happened.

At the time of the shooting he was a Security Officer (S.O.) working night shift. His duty weapon was a S&W Model 29, Nickel Finish, 4” barrel with his own handloaded 44 Special ammunition which used a lead semi-wadcutter bullet.

He has been in two shooting incidents.

The Incident;

S.O. responded to a entry alarm at a local pharmacy. When he arrived he started checking the building and discovered broken glass where entry had been made. He encountered the perp who tried to run from him. After a short foot chase they got into fight and the perp knocked the S.O. onto the ground . The perp leaned over the S.O. to continue to attack and beat him. S.O. fearing for his life drew his S&W with his strong hand, shoved the muzzle into the lower torso of the perp and pulled the trigger once. S.O. said the round only made a “POP” noise and he immediately thought “Crap a misfire.” He was just pulling the trigger a second time when the perp stopped his attack, said “You shot me” and fell onto the ground.

Legal;

S.O. said he was well treated by the police and investigators. The use of handloaded ammunition was never considered as a factor. He was quickly cleared of any wrongdoing.

Medical:

Perp suffered horrible internal injuries especially to his liver. The entire gunshot including all of the gas escaping from the muzzle went inside his body. The bullet was not recovered. He underwent several surgeries over a two week period while doctors tried to save his life. He finally recovered but lost 2/3 of his liver in the process.

Aftermath:

Perp was parole violator wanted in California. Police packed up what was left of him and sent him back to California without any local charges.

S.O. could only use one hand to draw and fire his gun as he was defending himself against physical beating.

S.O. says the one shot stopping power of the 44 is a myth. He said if he had it to over he would have kept pulling the trigger until the perp fell down rather than pausing to judge the effect of the first shot.

S.O. later switched to carrying a S&W Model 27 with .357 Magnum loads.

His gun was not damaged and remained functional for follow-up shots.

I have personally seen four revolvers blow up. One of them the barrel split lengthwise (stuck bullet maybe). The other three were the result of too hot of loads and blew the top of cylinder off. One of them the top strap held everything together (thank goodness for me as I was the timer). With the other two pieces went sky high. Shooters did not suffer any injuries.

During my IPSC days I did seen 1911 blowups with the force of the explosion going down the mag well blowing out the grips and injuring their hand(s).

It is common for hunters to put a piece of electricians tape over the muzzle of their rifle to keep dirt from getting into the bore. When the gun is fired the tape simply blows off with no damage.

When under attack or high stress most people resort to simple basic tactics.

ljnowell
September 30, 2012, 12:04 AM
S.O. said he was well treated by the police and investigators. The use of handloaded ammunition was never considered as a factor. He was quickly cleared of any wrongdoing.

That is impossible. As has been said here and on every other forum, probably because of a certain famous gun writer who has spread it for years, if you use handloaded ammunition then you will get life in prison, lose everything you own, and your dog and kitten will be executed.

Jim K
September 30, 2012, 12:13 AM
Ever consider that if you are close enough to a bad guy for a contact shot then you are close enough that he can take the gun from you before you shoot and then YOU will experience the effects of a contact shot?

(I know, it never happens that way in the scenarios on the web sites.)

Jim

Hondo 60
September 30, 2012, 01:04 AM
The gun blowing up shtick is only in the cartoons.

No it will NOT bulge the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWl1Mu1tywM

1911Tuner
September 30, 2012, 07:24 AM
Ever consider that if you are close enough to a bad guy for a contact shot then you are close enough that he can take the gun from you before you shoot and then YOU will experience the effects of a contact shot?

True that, but I don't think anybody with a teacup fulla rational thought in play would deliberately wait until an attacker is close enough to execute a contact shot. Sometimes, it just works out that way.

ultramag44
September 30, 2012, 04:32 PM
Greg528iT said:

Myth Busters had an episode where they plugged up barrels. Some bulged or ripped, but only after some real serious plugging, and on a closed breach barrel. A revolver with the cylinder gap, there is at least some release. Wrong side of the bullet I know, but.

Also, if you are THAT close and NEED to pull the trigger, harm to the gun would be my last concern.

Someone said to clean after. Ummmm you won't have a chance. Even in a good shoot, the pistol will be in police possession, at least until you are cleared, a couple months for sure. The rust from the blood will ruin it more than any barrel issues.

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Greg is right, if it comes down to it, I doubt the gun will suffer, and really won't care. I can replace a revolver but not my or my wifes lives.

If it comes down to it, and you have time before the police arrive, run HOT water over the gun, dry and wipe it very carfully , leave it on a counter (not near you) w/ the cylinder open. You don't want it rusted when you get it back.

Call a lawyer and REMAIN silent. Only the police take silence as an admission of guilt or wrong doing, DA's, Lawyers and Juries don't. Anything you have to say can be said through your lawyer @ the proper time, NOT while you are scared or emotional. Your lawyer will explain you were too shocked @ the time to make a statement. However, now you are calm, have explained the situation to him/her and he/she will answer all questions.

<removed>

mesinge2
September 30, 2012, 05:20 PM
If it comes down to it, and you have time before the police arrive, run HOT water over the gun, dry and wipe it very carfully , leave it on a counter (not near you) w/ the cylinder open. You don't want it rusted when you get it back.

This an extraordinarily bad idea. If it comes to a jury trial I can see a lawyer using this as an attempt to tamper with the evidence.
Basically turning this into an admission of guilt

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 30, 2012, 05:38 PM
A former friend of mine had to put down a dog (he bit some kid). A black lab. He said he put the gun right against the top of the dog's head and fired his 12 gauge.

Later, he wanted me to look at the bore, so I did. He asked me if I see any kind of bulges or anything. As much as I could see from the inside and outside of the pump gun, it all looked good as new. I realize there could possibly be a little bulge that would not be perceptable with just the human eye. Even running a tight patch through it would give you some idea of a bulge if you felt a section of less resistance to the patched brush.

I asked him what it did to the dog, did it go through? He said, he was really surprised, the shot did NOT GO THROUGH THE DOG'S HEAD! I was amazed to say the least!

But I did tell him it is NEVER a good idea to put the muzzle against anything, I told him I was surprised the gun didn't blow.

JohnKSa
September 30, 2012, 05:49 PM
That is impossible. As has been said here and on every other forum, probably because of a certain famous gun writer who has spread it for years, if you use handloaded ammunition then you will get life in prison, lose everything you own, and your dog and kitten will be executed.That's not what's been said at all. Either you know it and you're pushing past sarcasm to an impressive level of intentional obtuseness, or your reading comprehension is hopelessly inadequate.

In a case where the circumstances are clear, it's unlikely that issues like handloading or modifications to the defensive weapon will become important. In cases where there are questions about the shooting, anything, including modifications to the defensive weapon, handloaded ammunition, or even in one documented case, modifications to OTHER firearms the defender owned can become an issue.A contact shot is not the same thing as a bore obstruction or plugged barrel.Correct. A contact shot will not cause damage to the gun because there is no effective obstruction to the bore. The bullet is going to exit the bore because nothing in the human body will provide sufficient resistance to stop it or even slow it significantly before it can get clear of the bore and allow the gases to vent.If it comes down to it, and you have time before the police arrive, run HOT water over the gun, dry and wipe it very carfully , leave it on a counter (not near you) w/ the cylinder open. You don't want it rusted when you get it back.Horrible advice. The last thing you want to do is alter the evidence. Leave things as they are--you can easily replace a rusted gun for what it will cost you to have a lawyer explain why you tried to tamper with evidence at a crime scene.

Rexster
September 30, 2012, 06:11 PM
******************************************************************************************************************************************************************


If it comes down to it, and you have time before the police arrive, run HOT water over the gun, dry and wipe it very carfully , leave it on a counter (not near you) w/ the cylinder open. You don't want it rusted when you get it back.

Call a lawyer and REMAIN silent. Only the police take silence as an admission of guilt or wrong doing, DA's, Lawyers and Juries don't. Anything you have to say can be said through your lawyer @ the proper time, NOT while you are scared or emotional. Your lawyer will explain you were too shocked @ the time to make a statement. However, now you are calm, have explained the situation to him/her and he/she will answer all questions.

<removed>
Um, that could be construed to be a felony in at least some jurisdictions, if an investigator and/or prosecutor decided to go in that direction. Altering or removing evidence is a tremendous gift to deliver to the prosecution!

Milamber
September 30, 2012, 06:27 PM
I know it's not a sidearm but back in the day during basic we did the old fix bayonets and charge drill. We were told that if the bayonet stuck in the other fellow to pull the trigger to assist in withdrawal. Of course this was all fine and dandy if you had a round in the chamber! This was a L1A1 and thankfully never had the need

leadcounsel
September 30, 2012, 07:24 PM
Plugging the barrel is a different animal than having flesh on the end of the barrel.

Consider that in a plugged barrel, all of the massive amounts of kinetic energy has NOPLACE to escape and may damage the barrel. The bullet goes from 1000 fps (or whatever) to zero.

However, once it has exited the barrel, the energy can go in many directions. Let's also not forget that whether it's 10 yard or 1 millimeter from the barrel, a bullet won't be stopped by flesh or leather or whatever.

Jim K
September 30, 2012, 09:28 PM
If you consider keeping the gun from rusting important enough to tamper with evidence, the gun will have a lot of time to rust while you do 2-5. Even if you get off on self-defense for a killing, you can get sent away for playing games with the evidence or perjuring yourself.

I don't understand this excessive concern for the gun. I once posted that a person involved in a street shooting was going to be told by the police to drop his gun. One man replied that his Brand X cost $3800 and that he wasn't going to drop it and scar it up and the cops could go to h**l. Of course, if he didn't drop it, I am pretty sure a dozen police bullets would send him to that or some other place, and his $3800 gun would still fall on the pavement. But of course he wouldn't care any more.

Jim

ljnowell
September 30, 2012, 10:38 PM
That's not what's been said at all. Either you know it and you're pushing past sarcasm to an impressive level of intentional obtuseness, or your reading comprehension is hopelessly inadequate.

Of course its sarcasm, that didnt stop you from making insults about my reading comprehension did it? Thats real high road of you! Congrats!

As far as what I said, Mas Ayoob has pitched the campaign that handloads WILL be used against you every time. He even goes so far as to take a case where the guy plainly killed his wife and uses it as an excuse.

Float Pilot
September 30, 2012, 10:53 PM
Um, that could be construed to be a felony in at least some jurisdictions, if an investigator and/or prosecutor decided to go in that direction. Altering or removing evidence is a tremendous gift to deliver to the prosecution!

I had a couple cases where the firearms were cleaned after a shooting and we thought about charging the owner with evidence tampering... But in both cases they were smart enough to call their lawyer first and not say anything else. In both cases he evidence tampering was thrown out after their lawyer argued that they were only falling back onto prior training after a stressfull event. (Not to mention the fact that almost every police dept has a policy to clean guns used in shootings so they are not damaged in storage awaiting the slow wheels of the justice system) And of course the shootings were legit.. or at least considered to be legit by a grand jury.

Of course nothing in the justice system is based upon common sense.

JohnKSa
September 30, 2012, 11:33 PM
Of course its sarcasm, that didnt stop you from making insults about my reading comprehension did it? Thats real high road of you! Congrats!The statement I made was an "either/or" sentence. That means that one or the other clauses separated by the "or" is correct, but not both.

Example: I say: "Your house is either white or black." If you respond that it's black, then my statement is true, and it would be meaningless for you to complain that I said your house was white. Clearly the statement I made does not allow for the house to be BOTH black and white since using "either/or" rules that possibility out.

Getting back to the specific comment in question: If you're going to claim that you were being intentionally obtuse then that would invalidate the reading comprehension clause and that, in turn, would mean that there was no insult.

Unfortunately, the fact that an explanation of a relatively simple grammatical concept was obviously required puts your claim on shaky ground--unless you were again, being intentionally obtuse in a vain attempt to falsely accuse me of a rules infraction.

AlexanderA
September 30, 2012, 11:51 PM
rcmodel wrote:

On the other hand, a truly plugged bore can't get the plug out of it's own way fast enough to prevent a bulged barrel when the air is compressed between it and the oncoming bullet.

What about firing a revolver with the barrel filled with water? I remember the scene in "Pale Rider" where Clint Eastwood hides under water in a horse trough and raises his gun to shoot the bad guy. Wouldn't the gun have blown up? Or would the water have leaked out through the cylinder gap? Could it have drained out fast enough?

ljnowell
October 1, 2012, 12:13 AM
Unfortunately, the fact that an explanation of a relatively simple grammatical concept was obviously required puts your claim on shaky ground--unless you were again, being intentionally obtuse in a vain attempt to falsely accuse me of a rules infraction.

edit: nevermind, just noticed your username, seen you operate before, no sense in arguing with you.

JohnKSa
October 1, 2012, 01:23 AM
...no sense in arguing with you...That's clearly not true. You've obviously learned at least one thing from arguing with me in the past. :D

rondog
October 1, 2012, 01:36 AM
OK, <disclaimer> I haven't read all the replies, so don't flame me for repeating if someone else said this - but don't try contact shots with a 1911 platform pistol! Push that barrel in, and it ain't gonna go bang.

But I can't even imagine the damage that all the muzzle blast entering a body might do to a person. As far as the gun blowing up? Last of my worries. I just don't see it happening, in fact with my .38 snubbie I'd probably plan for contact shot. Even a contact shot from a .22 revolver is bound to do some serious damage. All those hot gases blasting into a body? OMG. That'll take the wind out of anybody's sails.

michaelbsc
October 1, 2012, 02:47 AM
... But in both cases they were smart enough to call their lawyer first and not say anything else.

[...]

Of course nothing in the justice system is based upon common sense.

I've posted this before. God knows the police have a hard job, but this is good advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But back to the topic at hand, have we established that the gas will vent into the perp's body cavity on a revolver fine, but on something like a 1911 you risk getting the gun out of battery so you have no fire?

That's what I think I'm hearing.

1911Tuner
October 1, 2012, 06:15 AM
Having been involved with rescue for over 30 years, I've sometimes been forced to end a dog's suffering when there was no hope and it was more stressful and/or painful to get the dog to a vet...or on a weekend when no vet was open. It's not something that I relish, and it fairly knocks me outta the hatframe for about a week afterward...but I've done it.

It has to be done properly so the dog feels nothing. Pressing the muzzle low against the back of the head to let the gas plug completely scramble the medulla oblongata and brain stem accomplishes that. Correctly done, it's unlikely that the dog even hears the shot.

For larger dogs, I use a Model 10 loaded with +P 125-grain JHP and press the muzzle tightly in order to seal off all possible gas escape. I've never had any tissue or blood get into the gun, and I've used the same revolver several times over the years.

With standard, non-magnum calibers, the peak pressure occurs early...within the first half-inch of bullet movement...and drops rapidly. Even the slower powders typical with magnum ammunition reach peak pressure within an inch or less. By the time the bullet gets to the muzzle, the pressure is at maybe 10-15% of peak, so slowing the bullet for an instant with something as yielding as flesh or clothing just as it reaches the muzzle isn't going to push the pressures up to the point of bulging the barrel.

Cosmoline
October 1, 2012, 02:03 PM
Wouldn't the gun have blown up? Or would the water have leaked out through the cylinder gap? Could it have drained out fast enough?

Of course under water when the bullet is pushing against the water column, barrels can bulge and at greater length will likely bulge. You can get away with it sometimes with short guns.

Once the firearm is out of the water, though, I *believe* the bullet and gas will simply spit any remaining water right out as droplets or steam. Which is why you don't have KB's because of heavy rain while hunting.

But I know of no scientific proof of that second thought. Just experience.

351 WINCHESTER
October 1, 2012, 08:14 PM
We (myself and the brassfetcher) made a contact shot with my .38 640 shooting a +P as I recall. Pleantly of tissue damage to about 2" and then it just went away. The gun took a bath in gelatin, no matter as it cleaned right off.

ultramag44
October 2, 2012, 04:34 PM
Rexster,

I have to respectfully disagree. As you too live in Texas, we have the castle law to protect us from such prosecution or law suit by the perps family.We do not have to retreat or prove we felt threatened. Since I committed no crime under the castle law, there is no issue of 'tampering'. Would unloading the gun after after the perp expired be tampering (not that it matters due to castle law pre-empting a crime) The perp has to break in through all my locked doors. He violated my home. I warned him to leave. He chose to advance. He grabbed me.
He got contact shot & killed. He chose to break in and attack.

I'm not going to stand in the living room with the bloody revolver in my hand, 5 in the chamber and 1 empty when LEO Arrive. It will be unloaded, washed & wiped clean. It will be sitting on a counter w/ open cylinder for LEO.

I'm just saying. I know lots of states don't protect honest citizens.

Sam1911
October 2, 2012, 04:42 PM
As far as what I said, Mas Ayoob has pitched the campaign that handloads WILL be used against you every time. He even goes so far as to take a case where the guy plainly killed his wife and uses it as an excuse.
I don't believe it is at all fair to say that Mas has ever said anything of the sort. We've had a VERY in-depth thread on that subject (and the case you're describing) and the point made is that in a very few instances you could have a harder time presenting your affirmative defense of "self defense" because your handloaded ammo might not be able to be used to produce one, rather contentious, type of forensic evidence you might want to introduce to support your claims.

That's about a million miles from him claiming that handloads will be "used against you" at all, let alone "every time."

Sam1911
October 2, 2012, 04:50 PM
As you too live in Texas, we have the castle law to protect us from such prosecution or law suit by the perps family
You do realize that "castle doctrine" claims are rebuttable, right? They are not blanket declarations that any use of lethal force in your home is lawful. They are good things to have as they can help a defender, but they are bad things to RELY ON as they are not the safety blanket or "get out of jail, free" card they're often claimed to be.

All that to say, I'm not touching ANYTHING involved with the incident until the police have had their chance to investigate thoroughly. If my gun can't survive an hour or a day or whatever with a little foreign matter on it, I should pick a better gun. If there turns out to be a lengthy investigation and trial, the condition of the gun I used is the very least of my concerns.

ultramag44
October 2, 2012, 10:15 PM
Sam1911 said:

"You do realize that "castle doctrine" claims are rebuttable, right? They are not blanket declarations that any use of lethal force in your home is lawful. They are good things to have as they can help a defender, but they are bad things to RELY ON as they are not the safety blanket or "get out of jail, free" card they're often claimed to be."

True enough sir, however in this hypothetical case, we are not discussing some drunk in the alley kicking a dumsptser because he staggered into it.

We are not discussing some fellow whom you invited invited into your home, who, after consuming one to many drinks made an off-color remark to your good wife.

In such circumstances, Castle Doctorine won't help you.

We are talking about a perfect stranger. He has forced your locked doors in the night. He most likely has a criminal record, is a substance abuser and associates with like minded criminals. He may be in a gang.

You are none of those things. You work, pay taxes, are a homeowner, you may be a member of the church. Your worst infraction is pushing the speed limit once or twice when you were younger.

You ARE a respected member of the community. And yes, the Castle Doctorine WAS written for YOU!

Since the perp has expired or is totally incopacitated, you did the responsible thing by unloading it. . It's in full view and the cylinder is open so LEO knows they are not in danger.

You've kept your mouth shut and called a lawyer. Your lawyer will explain to them that yes, you were the one who was forced to shoot. You do not deny it. Your training just kicked in and you responsibally unloaded it and cleaned it off.

No LEO or DA will try to jack with you for unloading a weapon and cleaning it. NO grand jury will buy into such rubbish.

JohnKSa
October 3, 2012, 01:19 AM
You are none of those things. You work, pay taxes, are a homeowner, you may be a member of the church. Your worst infraction is pushing the speed limit once or twice when you were younger.Unfortunately that will all be in the past. When the police show up your worst infraction will be that you shot someone and tampered with evidence before the police arrived on the scene.No LEO or DA will try to jack with you for unloading a weapon and cleaning it. NO grand jury will buy into such rubbish.It makes no sense to risk jailtime over some finish damage to a firearm, so I would think a grand jury/LEO/DA would reasonably assume that there was something else going on.

At any rate, it's a moot point. It's illegal to tamper with evidence at the scene of a felony, and since you're "a homeowner, you may be a member of the church and a respected member of the community" you will follow the law.

And if a citizen willfully ignores the law to keep from having to refinish a firearm, maybe that citizen is not really all that upstanding and respectable--at least that's how the law would be likely see it...

BSA1
October 3, 2012, 09:41 AM
It is sad that comments like in #44 show how few people understand the three elements required for self-defense and why preserving evidence is important in supporting your version of events.

Oh the elements are opportunity, ability and jeopardy.

Sam1911
October 3, 2012, 09:54 AM
I think the funny-but-true way of saying it is, "No one else can see your halo."

Sure, you're the good guy, because you think you are, and you didn't mean to do wrong. To the rest of the world (including the responding officers, investigators, district attorney, grad jury, and trial jury) you're just a guy. The "good" part is yet to be determined, and when they first meet you, it is as someone who has just shot and maybe killed someone.

"Castle Doctrine" laws do help by offering the state a way that it can presume some things in your favor (mostly in eliminating the need for you to prove the intruder's bad intent), but they aren't such a blanket protection that you should feel free to alter the scene and tamper with or eliminate evidence because you're so clearly immune from prosecution.

1911Tuner
October 3, 2012, 10:07 AM
Your Miranda rights state that anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law. You can assume that includes anything that you do and/or say before, during, and after the fact. i.e. The sign on your door that says: "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." or: "Kill'em all. Let God sort'em out." won't help your cause. Bet on it.

Tampering with evidence is a very good way to get yourself a new roomie named "Mongo."

Let the gun rot.

BSA1
October 3, 2012, 01:38 PM
Tampering with evidence is a very good way to get yourself a new roomie named "Mongo."

And everyman in prison is innocent.

Jaymo
October 3, 2012, 08:23 PM
In GA, forced entry equals home invasion, and home invasion equals automatic justification of lethal force.

JohnKSa
October 3, 2012, 11:52 PM
In GA, forced entry equals home invasion, and home invasion equals automatic justification of lethal force.Unless the GA castle doctrine is very different from the various castle doctrine laws I've looked at, it equals no such thing.

Castle doctrine laws provide the presumption of innocence if the criteria are met. It doesn't mean you're automatically justified, it just means that you don't have to prove you're innocent as you would normally have to do after shooting someone. It means that the state has to presume you're innocent unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise. If you provide that evidence or provide good reason for the responding LEOs to suspect that it wasn't self-defense or that you broke other laws, then castle doctrine won't mean much at all.

And it provides absolutely no protection against the penalties associated with other laws. So if you break another law (say tampering with evidence at the scene of a felony crime) the castle doctrine won't help you in the least.

marcclarke
October 6, 2012, 08:07 PM
In GA, forced entry equals home invasion, and home invasion equals automatic justification of lethal force.
Same in Colorado.

Sam1911
October 6, 2012, 08:36 PM
Quoted for repetitiveness:Unless the GA castle doctrine is very different from the various castle doctrine laws I've looked at, it equals no such thing.


Same in Colorado.

marcclarke
October 7, 2012, 09:50 PM
Quoted for repetitiveness:
Mod, I'm sorry, I am thus far missing your point. Are you agreeing? Or are you castigating me for having posted about Colorado law? Do you wish me to remove my post?

Sam1911
October 7, 2012, 10:22 PM
Mod, I'm sorry, I am thus far missing your point. Are you agreeing? Or are you castigating me for having posted about Colorado law? Do you wish me to remove my post?
Neither. I'm repeating the point that JohnKSa made that in neither GA or CO, "it equals no such thing."

A much better understanding of what "Castle Doctrine" laws DO is required.

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