TrailBoss max loads


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DeadFlies
September 28, 2012, 08:53 AM
I purchased some TrailBoss powder the other day was looking at the IMR/Hodgdon website for some 30-30 load data. They state that the MAX load is whatever you can stuff into the case without compressing it. I tried that and came up with 10.6 grains (with some room to spare even) so I'm calling my MAX load 10.5 grains.

But, in another place (one of them being the load data that came with my Lee dies and I'm sure they are just repeating what IMR/Hodgdon has published) I saw that they list the MAX load at 9 grains. So, what gives? Can I safely load 10.5 grains, so long as it's not compressed?

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joecil
September 28, 2012, 09:49 AM
This is copied right from a PDF file I downloaded from the IMR site.

30-30 WINCHESTER
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:12"
Barrel: 24" Trim: 2.030" Primer: Winchester LR
Bullet: 160 GR. CAST LFN Dia. .308" COL: 2.485"
Trail Boss 6.5 997 20,500 CUP 9.0 1195 29,100 CUP

DeadFlies
September 28, 2012, 09:56 AM
This is copied right from a PDF file I downloaded from the IMR site.

30-30 WINCHESTER
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:12"
Barrel: 24" Trim: 2.030" Primer: Winchester LR
Bullet: 160 GR. CAST LFN Dia. .308" COL: 2.485"
Trail Boss 6.5 997 20,500 CUP 9.0 1195 29,100 CUP

Right. And yet this

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

also from IMR/Hodgdon says that my MAX load is whatever I can fit under the bullet without compressing it. So which is it?

jcwit
September 28, 2012, 10:09 AM
The new Lyman Cast Bullet Manual gives different loads using Trail Boss. Don't know what they are, just noted it the other day while in my LGS.

Maybe someone will chime in with the info.

Walkalong
September 28, 2012, 10:54 AM
Load it to 100% load density in the .30-30, and call it done. No air space is best. Expect in the neighborhood of 1200 FPS.

I use 13.5 Grs under a 110 Gr .30 Carbine bullet for a plinker load. Super clean, light recoil, reasonably accurate. TB plays much, much nicer with lead than jacketed. I would only load 100% load density with plated or jacketed. lead you can download a bit.

DeadFlies
September 28, 2012, 11:29 AM
Load it to 100% load density in the .30-30, and call it done. No air space is best. Expect in the neighborhood of 1200 FPS.

I use 13.5 Grs under a 110 Gr .30 Carbine bullet for a plinker load. Super clean, light recoil, reasonably accurate. TB plays much, much nicer with lead than jacketed. I would only load 100% load density with plated or jacketed. lead you can download a bit.

I'm loading this under a 165 grain MBC cast bullet.

I see that you say "load it to 100% and call it done" but then say "only load 100% with plated or jacketed". Other than reasons of economy, would there be any reason NOT to load 100% with cast bullets?

jcwit
September 28, 2012, 12:48 PM
Problem I'm having is elevation. I'm casting a Lee 150 gr flat nose bullet, and so far my heavisest powder charge has been 8.5 grains of Trail Boss. My rear sight is up as high as it will go and I'm my point of impact is still 6 inches low. This is using a Winchester 94.

rcmodel
September 28, 2012, 12:58 PM
If you want to shoot a lever-action at half the velocity & recoil it was designed for, you will need to replace the front sight with shorter one.

Thats just the nature of the beast.

They depend on recoil moving the gun to put the bullets on target with the factory sights.
Just like a hard kicking handgun.

They are factory sighted for full power 150 & 170 grain loads, and very often you run out of sight adjustment when you get very far of the beaten path.

rc

DeadFlies
September 28, 2012, 01:02 PM
Problem I'm having is elevation. I'm casting a Lee 150 gr flat nose bullet, and so far my heavisest powder charge has been 8.5 grains of Trail Boss. My rear sight is up as high as it will go and I'm my point of impact is still 6 inches low. This is using a Winchester 94.

My situation exactly, which is why I was trying to get the most oomph out of TB that I can. My rear sight, too, is at max height and POI is still way too low with 9 grains.

If I can't remedy this I still have some Unique and H4895 that I can try before replacing the front sight.

Walkalong
September 28, 2012, 02:41 PM
but then say "only load 100% with plated or jacketed". Other than reasons of economy, would there be any reason NOT to load 100% with cast bullets?What I said was I would only load plated or jacketed at 100% load density. I also said you can download it with lead some. I did not say not to load 100% with lead, I just said you could download it as well as load 100%. I must not have made it clear enough.

The bullet weight doesn't matter. Load it to 100% load density, which is to the bottom of the bullet.

My situation exactly, which is why I was trying to get the most oomph out of TB that I can. You cannot get enough oomph with Trail Boss.

4895, SR 4759, or AA 5744 will do it, or at least get close.

jcwit
September 28, 2012, 04:16 PM
You cannot get enough oomph with Trail Boss.

4895, SR 4759, or AA 5744 will do it, or at least get close.


WELL! Thanks a bunch, walkalong, this after I bought a jug of Trail Boss.

Humph!!




lol

floydster
September 28, 2012, 05:30 PM
Hey, I even use TB in my 45 ACP for plinking---works great and super clean with cast bullets.
Havn't tried it yet in my long guns--but will at some point in time:)

Walkalong
September 28, 2012, 07:23 PM
Humph!!

It's still lots of fun. :)

jcwit
September 28, 2012, 07:34 PM
Yes it is.

Lost Sheep
September 29, 2012, 03:09 PM
Several years ago when I was teaching a friend how to reload, I suggested Trail Boss to learn with because it fills a lot of volume for the power it delivers. Hard to miss an undercharge or overcharge because the powder is easy to see inside the case.

But this was during a shortage of components and my friend had bought jacketed bullets (actually for the 500 AE) for use in his 500 S&W revolver and there were no .500" lead bullets to be found anywhere in town.

I could not find data for jacketed bullets, though, so emailed Hodgdon. Their answer was that "Trail Boss does not like jacketed bullets."

I emailed back, "How does Trail Boss express this dislike for jacketed bullets?"

I never got an answer to my second email.

The emails were longer than the quotes, but the quotes are verbatim.

I dug around Hodgdon's web site and found that Trail Boss is a smokeless powder developed to be used as a substitute for black powder in the Cowboy Action Shooting Sports fairly recently and was very new at the time.

I have observed that TB is now being used and even recommended for plated and jacketed bullets elsewhere but Hodgdon still lists no loads for jacketed or plated bullets on their web site:
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php.

What has NOT changed about TB is the ironclad recommendation against compressing a charge I find in all discussions about TB. Apparently the flakes behave badly if they are either 1) broken or 2) without a little air space between them. I don't know which.

Hodgdon's web site suggests, "Call 913-362-9455 for more information."

My friend and I loaded his jacketed bullets with TB and got 700 fps with 350 grain bullets out of his 500S&W. They are a hoot to shoot. Recoil is like a 22 rimfire in that heavy gun and if you are fast in the right light, you can sometimes see the bullets travelling downrange. We don't load that slow any more. He (safety first!) keeps the velocity above 850 fps and uses lead for TB loads now that we have a source for bullets.

I don't know if our experiences help. I hope they do.

At what range are you measuring the point of impact? Can you tell us a bullet velocity?

Lost Sheep

Walkalong
September 29, 2012, 04:11 PM
"How does Trail Boss express this dislike for jacketed bullets?"
Erratic performance.

It does not produce velocities in a linear way when the charge goes up from minimum.

If the charge doesn't fill 100% (Not 99%, 100%) of the empty space it can behave very strangely depending on powder position.

It tends to give anywhere from large to huge ES & SD numbers.

You may find a charge that looks good, but change it up or down a bit and things go crazy.

It loves lead. :)

jcwit
September 29, 2012, 04:37 PM
Shooting a Winchester 30-30. Was sighting in at 50 yards. POI was 6 to 8 inches low. Load is/was first 8 grains of TB behind a 150 grain gas checked lead bullet. Lee mould. Second load was the same other than 8 1/2 grains.

Going to try 10 grains, manual sayes 9 grains as max but with a 169 grain cast bullet. Also looking at using 4227 powder. All I'm looking for is a plinking load, off hand shooting, much like a .22 rimfire. NO HUNTING, can no longer get around in the woods.

DeadFlies
September 29, 2012, 05:13 PM
My experience was about the same. M94, 9 grains under a 165 grain cast bullet. Lee and Hodgdon say that this should produce about 1200 fps from a 24" barrel, so I am guessing somewhere around 1100 fps or so from my 20" barrel. POI was 6" low with rear sight at max elevation at 35 yards.

I loaded up some with 9.5 grains but I might load some with 10.5 or maybe 11 grains if I can be sure it won't compress the powder.

Lost Sheep
September 29, 2012, 06:23 PM
I loaded up some with 9.5 grains but I might load some with 10.5 or maybe 11 grains if I can be sure it won't compress the powder.
That should be easy.

Figure out the overall length of the cartridge you intend to load. You may have to load a dummy round and measure.

Measure the length of the bullet.

Measure the length of the case.

Subtract the length of the case from the length of the cartridge. Call that number the "Length of exposed bullet".

Subtract the Length of exposed bullet from the length of the bullet. Call that"Seating Depth"

With a felt-tip marker or soft pencil mark that depth inside the case mouth.

Fill the case with powder to that mark. Then dump the powder in your scale and weigh it. Do this several times and average the weights. That is your 100% (non-compressed) load.

Quicker way: but not as accurate.

If your bullet has a crimping groove, measure from the base of the bullet to the groove.

Mark that depth inside the case mouth with a pencil or felt-tip marker.

Proceed with the weighing as above.

Lost Sheep

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