[meanmrmustard]

I'm in the process of buying, yet again, another AR15. I've not given the platform a very fair shake as of late (due in no small part to the design, and some bad marketing by a certain "top tier" manufacturer) and would like one rifle to buy and not accessorize. The only carbine I've been impressed with over the last two years (think value and quality vs. price) has been the S&W M&P Sport. But I still found it in the corner collecting dust when it came range time. It's gone now, along with others before it. It is missed. I want more now.

I'm humbly asking owners of Windham products their opinions. The rifle I'm interested in is the MPC model, and after having looked at the build sheet for it, it looks quite solid...on paper. It's a $1000 rifle no matter how far I drive, and I swore I'd never spend that coin on an AR. This one may make a liar out of me. This purchase will most likely not happen till February (research and funding have to align) and I can wait. Barrel twist rate is 1/9; fine by me, I shoot primarily 55-69 gr anyway.

So, how bout it guys? Owners of Windham rifles, you thoughts ?

[mshootnit]

$799 at wal mart and only like 35 down for layaway.

[meanmrmustard]

$799 at wal mart and only like 35 down for layaway.
My Walmart doesn't have layaway on firearms.

The MPC closest to me is $999, everywhere in driving distance. The model I speak of is the M4A4 with Carry Handle.

I'll add also, this early in the game, it's really between the WW or Sig M400. But, for now, I want to hear mini reviews from any Windham owners. The Sig, I'll save for another thread or setup a poll later.

[SSN Vet]

Same owner, same plant and same crew as Bushmaster b4 they were sold to the Freedom Group and the Windham plant was shut down...

My brother just bought one of their M4orgeries...

Build quality looked good... but I didn't get to shoot it.

[back40]

i know you are asking for windham owner's opinions, but for $1k, i would suggest you do more research and include a few other makers in your selection process.

also very few people are objective enough to openly admit that they don't like their rifle, no matter what it is. just food for thought.

[mshootnit]

I've read two reviews, both concluded a great basic AR but accuracy tables showed decent but not great accuracy.

[mshootnit]

My Walmart doesn't have layaway on firearms.

The MPC closest to me is $999, everywhere in driving distance. The model I speak of is the M4A4 with Carry Handle.

I'll add also, this early in the game, it's really between the WW or Sig M400. But, for now, I want to hear mini reviews from any Windham owners. The Sig, I'll save for another thread or setup a poll later.

... Mine didn't either till last week. When was the last time you checked?

[Cluster Bomb]

Awesome guns . Reliable. Durrable. They are def making a name for them selves

[mshootnit]

I can't speak directly as an owner but I have handled one and owned the bushmaster xm15e2s made by the same folks. I think they are decent. Bushy's are like bell bottoms. Everybody has one in the closet but nobody wants to admit it.

[meanmrmustard]

... Mine didn't either till last week. When was the last time you checked?
3 days ago. Walmarts are independently owned, leaving the choice of layaway to them. Electronics, toys, garments. No guns...

As for the specs on the WW, I wouldn't exactly call it "basic". Lot of qualities in it I like. However, what is "decent" accuracy? I'm aware of what's expected from a chrome lined bore, but do these reviews give you group sizes? I'm all ears.

[meanmrmustard]

i know you are asking for windham owner's opinions, but for $1k, i would suggest you do more research and include a few other makers in your selection process.

also very few people are objective enough to openly admit that they don't like their rifle, no matter what it is. just food for thought.
This is THR. More often than not, I get mixed reviews from owners when I ask for this information. It's what I do with that info that reflects what I listen to or not. Or, what I may or may not purchase.

Also, I have owned builds and box rifles. I know quality, and what I'd like to get for my money. Hence the choice mainly between the Windham and the Sig. I'm not overly worried about barrel steel, but more so with coating and what the bolt is made of. In that department, the WW would more than suffice. But, is it accurate? Does it require babying, like other ARs do on occasion. There are really nothing of exceptional quality in my area that warrant $1K. This thread is about WW and those who own them or have some experience with them, and secondly, the Sig.

[Sergei Mosin]

I own one, but I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have had it for several months and still haven't taken it to the range. I would suggest that shopping around online and having it shipped to a local FFL will probably save you $100 or more; mine was just over $800 total including shipping and transfer fees.

[meanmrmustard]

Awesome guns . Reliable. Durrable. They are def making a name for them selves
Do you own one? If so, what's your current round count? What kind of accuracy are you getting? Does it hiccup, or is it trouble free? If it runs like my last Sport, and is close to it in accuracy, I'd be impressed.

[back40]

your call. but most people would argue that there are better options for 1k.

also, i would agree, you are likely to find a better deal online even factoing shipping and transfer. problem is you can't inspect it prior to purchasing. buying from a mfr with a proven track record and customer service makes that inspection less important.

If it runs like my last Sport, and is close to it in accuracy, I'd be impressed.

why not another s&w?

[meanmrmustard]

your call. but most people would argue that there are better options for 1k.

also, i would agree, you are likely to find a better deal online even factoing shipping and transfer. problem is you can't inspect it prior to purchasing.



why not another s&w?
You may be right there, another Sport wouldn't break my heart at all.

There isn't really anything worth troubling myself over with s&h and transfer that I can't get with the WW or Sig. I won't buy a Colt. Never again.

Have you shot, owned, or inspected a Sig M400?

[meanmrmustard]

I own one, but I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have had it for several months and still haven't taken it to the range. I would suggest that shopping around online and having it shipped to a local FFL will probably save you $100 or more; mine was just over $800 total including shipping and transfer fees.
What model?

[95XL883]

I bought an MPC from Cabela's for $800 a couple of months ago. The Cabela's site says it is now $819. This is my first AR so obviously I have nothing to compare it to. That said, I like it. I haven't shot it a lot yet, only a couple of hundred rounds or so. It's functioned perfectly and my old eyes have gotten 3" groups at 50 yards. I'm sure I'm the limiting factor in that. The trigger still has a new stiffness to it but I expect it will break in fairly well. The upper and lower fit together very well and tight but again I have nothing to compare it to. Still I can't imagine it being any tighter. The finish on mine is very good, at least I like it. It strikes me as better than the S&W or the Sigs I also considered.

One interesting thing is the barrel on mine is stamped 1:8, not 1:9. The salesman said that every one they have had were 1:8. It came with a sling and a plastic case. The sling is basic but works well. The plastic case is a little flimsy but it's nice to have and if I really want a good plastic case I'll get a Pelican.

Hope this helps.

[OilyPablo]

I would go feature by feature and compare your top contenders. Look at all the "mil-spec" type items and learn if they are important to YOU. I was in the same place as you early this year. I really was going to get the Windham and decided to keep saving. Not that there is anything wrong with the Windham. In fact, I would love more folks to evaluate them.

At the $900 mark the Sig M400 is pretty sweet.

In the end I bought the Daniel Defense M4V3 for about $1400. Really a great rifle and I have zero regret.

[back40]

i've handled (not shot) both the sigs and the WWs. neither really impressed me much, but both seem to be executed well. for my money at 1k i'd likely go with something else, but as i said, if that's what you want....ars are more a personal choice than most people will admit. i've seen accuracy reports on the sigs that are close to moa at 100yds.

[Sergei Mosin]

I have an MPC.

[meanmrmustard]

I have an MPC.
Sweet. How's the trigger? Have you dry fired it?

[Steel Horse Rider]

I have the Bushmaster carbine version (XM14?) that I bought about ten years ago. With a 4X scope I can shoot the small bullseye centers on a standard sighting target at 100 yds. I don't understand why anyone would not want an original Bushmaster. I am pretty proud of mine, but then I am not a gun snob, I just like to shoot things that are dependable and affordable.....

[Quentin]

i know you are asking for windham owner's opinions, but for $1k, i would suggest you do more research and include a few other makers in your selection process...

I agree with this. For 1K there are so many known quality ARs so why take a chance on Windham or trust a few one-of-kind reviews from people you don't know?

And though I'm someone you don't know, I have three ARs based on upper receivers from BCM, Daniel Defense and PSA which came in around $800-1100. BCM and DD of course have impecable reputations. The PSA was the $800 rifle and its specs on paper equal the BCM and DD. I can't tell any difference in operation but then we're back to one-of...

And heck, you can find Colt 6920s for $1047 at Walmart!

Sorry for the ramble but I just can't see paying that much for Windham when you could have BCM or Colt for $50+ more.

[meanmrmustard]

i've handled (not shot) both the sigs and the WWs. neither really impressed me much, but both seem to be executed well. for my money at 1k i'd likely go with something else, but as i said, if that's what you want....ars are more a personal choice than most people will admit. i've seen accuracy reports on the sigs that are close to moa at 100yds.
None impress me, they're ugly! But, I use my rifles as tools. I want to buy one, keep one, and stick it in a spot where it's easily reached for farm use, throwing in the truck, and killin what needs killin.

If I gave you $1k (keep dreamin) and told you to buy me any AR at or under that price (tax included) that wasn't a Colt, what are you buying?

[meanmrmustard]

I agree with this. For 1K there are so many known quality ARs so why take a chance on Windham or trust a few one-of-kind reviews from people you don't know?

And though I'm someone you don't know, I have three ARs based on upper receivers from BCM, Daniel Defense and PSA which came in around $800-1100. BCM and DD of course have impecable reputations. The PSA was the $800 rifle and its specs on paper equal the BCM and DD. I can't tell any difference in operation but then we're back to one-of...

And heck, you can find Colt 6920s for $1047 at Walmart!

Sorry for the ramble but I just can't see paying that much for Windham when you could have BCM or Colt for $50+ more.
$50 is $50. Maybe a BCM, I liked shooting that one. Not very accurate, which is important to me. But, this isn't a thread for suggesting that I save $50, cuz then that turns into $100 then more and so on.

Colt isn't an option. I won't own another, as specified.

I wouldn't mind another build, but PSA is back ordered constantly. Maybe they'll be freed up by February...maybe.

Do you have experience with the two rifles in my OP?

[Cluster Bomb]

I know tuns of people that are very happy with their ww. I shot about 600 rounds in one at a friends. I got good acuracy at 150. I'm not an ar man but if I was going to get one id get a ww . And believe me when I say they are well built.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=4605&cid=4

[meanmrmustard]

I know guns of people that are very happy with their ww. I shot about 600 rounds in one at a friends. I got good acuracy at 150. I'm not an ar man but if I was going to get one id get a ww . And believe me when I say they are well built.
Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.

[Quentin]

...Colt isn't an option. I won't own another, as specified.

I wouldn't mind another build, but PSA is back ordered constantly. Maybe they'll be freed up by February...maybe.

Did you have a ban version Colt? From most reports I've read current 6920s are excellent and of course hold their value well (for resale).

As you say, PSA is swamped with orders but I did get their midlength 16" upper recently. They have a fall sale now with uppers going for $280. You'd need their $140 BCG and $15 charging handle. Then a rear sight and a complete lower. It can happen for under $800 and from what I've seen better quality than Windham (though I've only handled, not shot a WW).

[conhntr]

I cant imagine soending a 1000$ on a noname no reputation ar when a colt/bcm is vailable at the same price point! A off bramnd would have to be in the 500-600$ range to be worth comsidering. Even there i would rather get a ak or mini14. Honestly for 400$ id consider one

[meanmrmustard]

I cant imagine soending a 1000$ on a noname no reputation ar when a colt/bcm is vailable at the same price point! A off bramnd would have to be in the 500-600$ range to be worth comsidering. Even there i would rather get a ak or mini14. Honestly for 400$ id consider one
Thanks for the comments. I'll take those under advisement. I've no use for Minis, as I find them crude at best. I already own several AKMs, have that base covered.

However, please read OP. several of your points have been addressed in a thread entitled "...Owners Opinions". Once again, I'll not own Colts ever again. Personal preference.

Also, use spell check.

[Cluster Bomb]

I don't think conhntr knows anything about WW and who runs it...

[meanmrmustard]

I don't think conhntr knows anything about WW and who runs it...
Maybe not. It's alright though, all are welcome. But the opinions I pay attention to are those who own WW or Sig. I don't see what anyone else offers that the two manufacturers I inquired about don't already. As I stated, barrel steel doesn't confront me. Both are 7075 aluminum, m4 feed ramps, CLed bore, f marked sight, staked key, blah blah blah. Boring mil spec crap to a "t".

Owners who can attest to reliability and accuracy are most welcome to share experiences with their rifles. I admit having no range time with the two I've listed (those models specifically) which is why I ask.

[Cluster Bomb]

The sigs do look good and feel good. If its the same one I looked at at wallys it seems decent. But I was more interested in a 22ar at the time.

I held a colt not to long ago. It was like a cadailac.

I'm still kinda favoring WW because its made in Maine. Just few towns over.

I do believe most ars are all the same. Just some look better but generaly speaking they are all the same even specd out.

[back40]

honestly if i were new to the ar game and looking to spend a thousand bucks on a carbine, i'd end up doing one of two things. locally, i just saw a colt 6920 with the fde receiver and magpul goodies for $1100. it would be tough to pass that up. the other option i would entertain for a standard config carbine would be bravo co. to my mind both are probably the best choices for the 1k mark. you can spend less and do just fine, and you can spend more and get a little more, but for a rock solid weapon in that price range imho those are the best choices.

that said, i've read of your beef with colt's customer service, and i won't fault any man for shunning a company that he feels treated him poorly. if customer service doesn't treat me well, i don't takeit lightly. however, i will give most companies the chance to make it right, especially if the incident involved one rep. recently i had to send a rifle back to a mfr for the second time, because after i detailed the problem and sent it in the first time, i recieved it back and it wasn't fixed. the issue's origin is still uknown, but there is no way that they could've checked the gun that they supposedly fixed, and not realized that is still didn't work properly. the end result is that they've replaced the rifle altogether with a new one, that i'vepicked up today and will take the the range tomorrow. inspection at the shop when i picked it up today shows that it works properly. pita, yes. a waste of my time, yes. but i'll still buy products from the co., as ultimately they've come through.

all this to say perhaps colt may not deserve a second chance, but it may benefit you to give them one anyway. i've dealt with colt's customer service and they were excellent to me. i understand this may fall on deaf ears, as some men's minds are made up and that's it. if this is you, so be it. as i said, i don't fault you.

enough of my rambling....best of luck in your choice.

[meanmrmustard]

colt 6920

best of luck in your choice.
No.

Thank you.

[back40]

figured as much:D just giving my honest opinion. i would look hard at bravo company unless you can find the ww online and have it shipped and transferred for less.

[meanmrmustard]

figured as much:D just giving my honest opinion. i would look hard at bravo company unless you can find the ww online and have it shipped and transferred for less.
Any experience with the Sig M400?

[OilyPablo]

Two things stand out about the Sig: Unique lower, accuracy, good reputation and great reviews.

I suddenly in my Saturday evening tiredness remembered why I didn't get the WW, Sig or Colt - they are all carbine length. I wanted a mid length. I even emailed WW to ask them if they make a mid length.

[back40]

ubnfortunately, no. as i said, i've handled them, but have no first hand experience with running them. my local pd just acquired 516 sbr rifles for patrol, and i was at the range when they did the initial sight in/ familiarity run. i would think sig would be a fine choice as well.

[TheLostOtter]

I think Windham makes a solid AR, but I wouldn't spend anywhere near $1000 for one. You should be able to shave a couple hundred off that price online and have S&W, Armalite, Sig, and Windham all priced pretty similarly.

If you are looking to spend $1000 Id suggest the BCM since you don't want a Colt.

[meanmrmustard]

I think Windham makes a solid AR, but I wouldn't spend anywhere near $1000 for one. You should be able to shave a couple hundred off that price online and have S&W, Armalite, Sig, and Windham all priced pretty similarly.

If you are looking to spend $1000 Id suggest the BCM since you don't want a Colt.
It's probably going to be the WW or Sig, quite possibly a build.

I'm really looking for owners to chime in about their rifles.

[mshootnit]

decent accuracy in the reviews I read. Somewhere around 1.5-2" accuracy at 100 yds. but not sub moa.
The trigger is going to be a single stage that breaks at 8lbs give or take a few ounces. It will have some creep typical of stock single stage triggers.

I wouldn't shy away from it in the 800-850 price range if that was your upper limit. It will group with a Colt and do what you need it to.

[dcarch]

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't Windham Weaponry simply a repackaged Bushmaster? I haven't been following the AR game as much lately, and honestly, the first I heard of Windham was the other day when I came across one in a local sporting goods store.

[mshootnit]

Another option would be to find a decent deal on a quality stripped lower, and build it up with good parts from Stag and Geissele. Then find a good upper on GB. I have done this a few times and come out well under 700 with a darned nice rifle.

[meanmrmustard]

decent accuracy in the reviews I read. Somewhere around 1.5-2" accuracy at 100 yds. but not sub moa.
The trigger is going to be a single stage that breaks at 8lbs give or take a few ounces. It will have some creep typical of stock single stage triggers.

I wouldn't shy away from it in the 800-850 price range if that was your upper limit. It will group with a Colt and do what you need it to.
Not too bad. Trigger sounds a bit heavy, like a DAO pull almost. The Sig lists its break in the area of 6lbs. Typical mil spec trigger pull. As for the grouping, I could live with that for what I need it for. I'm on the fence, and wanting to be pushed towards one rifle. The WW seems like a good rifle, but I don't want to immediately need to trigger swap.

How bout that Sig? I'm reading about it more and more. I'm liking it.

[mshootnit]

dcarch
I think for the most part you are right but whenever a new operation gets going sources for some parts are going to change. That is not to say for the worse though. I expect Windham to be putting out as good or better product than the old Bushy within a couple years as they get going.

[powder]

Have you shot, owned, or inspected a Sig M400?

I've seen several SIGs run multi-training days w/o hiccups: M400s and the 5.56 model. Outstanding rifles. GB dealer "Northern Firearms".

[meanmrmustard]

I've seen several SIGs run multi-training days w/o hiccups: M400s and the 5.56 model. Outstanding rifles. GB dealer "Northern Firearms".
Thank you for the input.

[JPG19]

Walmarts are not independently owned whatsoever. I live in Bentonville, AR, home of Walmart headquarters and all of their vendors (a very nice place, btw. Lots of money and things are well taken care of) so we are all intimately familiar with how Walmart runs. My sister works in their corporate office and would know of that were the case. They do choose to not sell guns in some walmarts and I admit I don't know why, but I'm certain it's not because they are independently owned. I would imagine it has to do with local gun laws and local folks' attitudes towards guns.

[meanmrmustard]

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't Windham Weaponry simply a repackaged Bushmaster? I haven't been following the AR game as much lately, and honestly, the first I heard of Windham was the other day when I came across one in a local sporting goods store.
Windham is what Bushy was before it turned to crap. So it's the Bushmaster folks making their own stuff, and the newer Bushy is Freedom owned, same as Remington and Marlin. They package junk and pass it off as quality. I've researched the Windham outfit: new, yes, but they took a lot of rifle making experience with them. From my reading, they're doing things right.

[back40]

powder, what kind of training are you referring to? carbine classes? a little more info would be helpful.

[KansasSasquatch]

I've been trying to make the exact same decision, with an S&W Sport thrown in the equation. I think I'm pretty much settled on the WW.

[Quentin]

This point has been made before but it's worth repeating. The WW and Sig will be carbine length gas which is optimal at 14.5" but not 16". The much superior BCM can be configured with midlength gas which is optimal at 16". My BCM is a 16" lightweight middy and is a smooth running, muzzle light rifle.

I've only handled the WW and Sig but must say I liked the Sig. A couple weeks ago it was $919 at my nearby Walmart and a buddy almost bought it. Kinda wish he had so we could try it out. I wouldn't buy one myself.

[meanmrmustard]

I've been trying to make the exact same decision, with an S&W Sport thrown in the equation. I think I'm pretty much settled on the WW.
Not to throw a cog in your works, but its hard for me not to get another Sport! In all reality, it wasn't lacking anything I needed.

Hmmm...

[meanmrmustard]

This point has been made before but it's worth repeating. The WW and Sig will be carbine length gas which is optimal at 14.5" but not 16". The much superior BCM can be configured with midlength gas which is optimal at 16". My BCM is a 16" lightweight middy and is a smooth running, muzzle light rifle.

I've only handled the WW and Sig but must say I liked the Sig. A couple weeks ago it was $919 at my nearby Walmart and a buddy almost bought it. Kinda wish he had so we could try it out. I wouldn't buy one myself.
Don't know why it's "much superior", but if it makes you happy...

Never owned a mid length, shot em, never owned one. Didn't notice a difference, so it's a non issue for me.

[back40]

never cared for the midlengths here either. i've been totally happy with my current carbine and my next will be a rifle length gas system.

[meanmrmustard]

never cared for the midlengths here either. i've been totally happy with my current carbine and my next will be a rifle length gas system.
Plus, I've been price checking in my neighborhood: no BCMs for under a $1k, so that negates that option entirely as I don't order firearms online. I don't trust it.

Sig is looking promising. WW is kinda blah with that heavy trigger. Then there's a build. I like having too many options!

[Southside830]

[QUOTE]Bushy's are like bell bottoms. Everybody has one in the closet but nobody wants to admit it./QUOTE]I have a Bushmaster and Love it. IDK why everyone hates on Bushmaster? My Bushy was made in Maine. I also have a Windham SRC and it is awesome! Shoots great. Never an issue with either no ftf no fte none. Over 2k through the Bushy and 1k through the Windham.

[back40]

what don't you trust about ordering online? just curious....it happens all the time. i've done it plenty and always been satisfied.

[Quentin]

I'm also curious why you wouldn't go with online sales when to your advantage. I buy stripped lowers locally then compare the rest of the parts locally and online. I've bought three uppers online and love seeing the nice man in the brown truck walking up to the front door! :D

[forindooruseonly]

I bought the WW equivalent of an optics ready carbine to play with. I'm not much of an AR fan, and am not the type to hang a bunch of MagPul and accessories all over it, but I've got a ton of magazines and ammo that's been collected over the years from when I kept trying to convince myself to like the platform Additionally, as a small business guy, I had some respect for the story behind the company and thought, why not, I'll give them a try. I needed a truck gun to handle pest control on the farm, so an inexpensive AR fit the bill.

Currently, the only other ARs we own are old SP-1s that weve had since the early 80s, one with a RR, and a SR-25, so I can't exactly whip out something similar to compare it with. I paid in the low $800 range for mine. Fit and finish seems fine, I wouldn't call it nice, but I'd say it is on par with most other ARs I run into. Typical black finish, seems durable enough. Coating looks even, roll marks look crisp, there's nothing that stands out as a blemish externally. The milling on the receiver looks fine, smooth, no burrs or anything. BCG looks like its staked ok and there aren't any unusual wear patterns that would indicate it being out of spec or something. In short, it is what it is - a run of the mill AR.

We've put about a thousand rounds down range with it. Hardly enough to say anything long term, but enough to get a feel for it. It's been flawlessly reliable, even running the cheapest steel cased ammo we have on hand. I haven't benched it for accuracy, but I can hold about 5 inch groups from a slinged sitting position at a hundred yards, which is about good enough for my needs as a truck gun. The factory magazine feels really cheap and flimsy. The hand guard was unimpressive too, but I don't have much of anything to compare it to. Stock functions fine, I don't feel like its flimsy or anything and it extends easy enough. The trigger is heavy and a little creepy when new. It's been smoothing out as it gets shot, but it's still heavy. I'll probably try to remedy that, because I use mine more for pest control than anything. I'd say it's probably fine for any type of SD situation where I wouldn't want a light trigger. The trigger and the magazine are the two things that stuck out as being disappointing. However, all the junky, beat down milsurp mags I've been using have all functioned fine with it, so whatever, I've got a ton of them.

At the end of the day, I'm satisfied with the reliability of the WW AR. It rides around in a working truck, so it sees a fair share of dirt and grime, and still has accounted for a few hogs and coyotes. It has a good warranty if you buy it new, assuming they live up to their claims. I have not had to deal with them however, so I can't say if their customer service is good or not. Accuracy seems adequate, I'm not expecting to go shoot a high power match with it, but it's certainly enough to ring my 8 inch plates off hand at a hundred. A good marksman could tell you better about the accuracy of them. If you are wanting to build your own AR, then I'm sure you could piece together something really great for the same money. Personally, I don't care enough for the platform to get into it like that, my time is spent elsewhere rather than researching parts and pieces and prices. But, like I said, I'm not one to customize an AR either, so I'm not worried about that aspect. I wanted a basic, but decent quality AR that I could throw around and not worry too much about. It seems to work for that.

One final thought, which probably just goes to show what an old curmudgeon I am. I appreciate the fact there's no zombies or biohazard signs or spiders or bears or anything else military or shtf oriented stamped on the reciever - just lettering. Anyways, that's my impression as the owner of one.

[meanmrmustard]

^Dont forget, it's wearing the American flag. Thank you for this write up, it's very helpful and well written.

Back40 and Quentin: I don't order online because I shop locally, keep my money in my community much as possible, don't want unseen imperfections arriving at my door, and find transfer fees as a rather unnecessary expenditure when driving to my LGS or Cabelas costs less in gas, I can see what I'm buying, and I can leave with it at my convenience. Only sucky thing is, neither is really on board about ordering things they don't normally carry. Windhams are carried everywhere I go, Sigs only slightly less, tons of Colts, S&Ws, and Bushys/DPMS/Olympic.

I live within driving distance of at least 12 shops. I may have to hit them all. Also, other than playing the waiting game, I've no qualms ordering uppers online as its less of a hassle for all involved. But, I'd much rather something not bought sight unseen.:)

[conhntr]

If you buy from a reputable manufacturer then it is not a problem buying online. Especially with 12 shops nearby transfer should be 25-30$ and since online prices are ~20% cheaper on a 1000$ gun that puts you way ahead. Which is why we keep teying to tell you that a quality gun can be had for the same price as the off brands you are obssesing over.

Btw try http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
Top rate dealer and you can put together exactly the gun you want (or should want)

[Capybara]

Hi:

I bought the Windham Weaponry SRC, the sightless version of the MPC, back in March of this year. I did my research and I liked the little extras that they include, the construction and I liked the fact that I bought a rifle that was made by former Bushmaster employees that were screwed over by the Freedom Group when they bought Bushmaster and closed the Windham, ME plant.

The Windham Weaponry rifles are not Bushmasters. They are not cheap, they are not "no name", they are very well built and crafted lower price ARs.

Mine has been pretty much flawless through about 2k rounds. No FTF or FTE's except when I used a brass catcher and the rounds were not able to eject correctly because of the catcher.

I bought my SRC on sale at $799.00, you can find the MPC for the same or $50.00 higher if you search around. Fit and finish are outstanding, construction is robust, trigger is decent, if not great. I mounted a Nikon M-223 2x8 optic and the rifle shoots very well.

Honestly, based upon my extensive research, you are not going to find an AR under $1,000.00 that is significantly different or better than the others. At that price point and level of competition in the marketplace, there are just small differences to the average shooter. The S&W MP15 Sport is a good little rifle as well, but I do shoot prone in sandy and windy environments and I wanted a dust cover. I have three other ARs, all home builds and I like the WW the best. The others are based upon Spikes and Anderson lowers and they are good too, but I do see fit and finish issues that are not on my WW.

I am being as objective as possible, if I didn't like my WW, I would tell you and I would sell it, I have very little ego about my choice of guns. I have a Ruger P95. Good cheap gun, I don't regret buying it but I knew if I wanted a GREAT 9mm handgun, I would need to spend more and I researched it and ended up with the CZ75 SP-01, a much better gun. Same with the WW ARs, you aren't going to beat them for the price.

The Colts are nice and resale will be strong due to name recognition but the fit and finish on the Colt ARs SUCKs! I have seen half a dozen of them and new out of the box, all were rough, have machine marks, burrs and often have scratches. Not a big deal, but in comparison, my SRC is like a Rolex as far as fit and finish, it is beautiful and reeks of quality.

[Sergei Mosin]

You probably already know this, but WW has a presence on arfcom. I'm not a member there, but I do lurk occasionally and read their subforum a fair bit while researching my purchase.

[meanmrmustard]

Hi:

I bought the Windham Weaponry SRC, the sightless version of the MPC, back in March of this year. I did my research and I liked the little extras that they include, the construction and I liked the fact that I bought a rifle that was made by former Bushmaster employees that were screwed over by the Freedom Group when they bought Bushmaster and closed the Windham, ME plant.

The Windham Weaponry rifles are not Bushmasters. They are not cheap, they are not "no name", they are very well built and crafted lower price ARs.

Mine has been pretty much flawless through about 2k rounds. No FTF or FTE's except when I used a brass catcher and the rounds were not able to eject correctly because of the catcher.

I bought my SRC on sale at $799.00, you can find the MPC for the same or $50.00 higher if you search around. Fit and finish are outstanding, construction is robust, trigger is decent, if not great. I mounted a Nikon M-223 2x8 optic and the rifle shoots very well.

Honestly, based upon my extensive research, you are not going to find an AR under $1,000.00 that is significantly different or better than the others. At that price point and level of competition in the marketplace, there are just small differences to the average shooter. The S&W MP15 Sport is a good little rifle as well, but I do shoot prone in sandy and windy environments and I wanted a dust cover. I have three other ARs, all home builds and I like the WW the best. The others are based upon Spikes and Anderson lowers and they are good too, but I do see fit and finish issues that are not on my WW.

I am being as objective as possible, if I didn't like my WW, I would tell you and I would sell it, I have very little ego about my choice of guns. I have a Ruger P95. Good cheap gun, I don't regret buying it but I knew if I wanted a GREAT 9mm handgun, I would need to spend more and I researched it and ended up with the CZ75 SP-01, a much better gun. Same with the WW ARs, you aren't going to beat them for the price.

The Colts are nice and resale will be strong due to name recognition but the fit and finish on the Colt ARs SUCKs! I have seen half a dozen of them and new out of the box, all were rough, have machine marks, burrs and often have scratches. Not a big deal, but in comparison, my SRC is like a Rolex as far as fit and finish, it is beautiful and reeks of quality.
Thank you for this write up. Have you experienced any negatives thus far? I, too, am not impressed with Colt, not just CS, but the rifle I received in unfinished condition. They rest on laurels. But, I don't want to compare the MPC to the 6920.

I have found a shop in STL MO that peddles WW for 849.99. Sweet.

What accuracy are you experiencing with your particular rifle?

[meanmrmustard]

You probably already know this, but WW has a presence on arfcom. I'm not a member there, but I do lurk occasionally and read their subforum a fair bit while researching my purchase.
I lurk as well, but wasn't aware they were involved. Thanks for letting me know, that's a valuable tidbit.

[SSN Vet]

FWIW, Walmarts are NOT independently owned...... They are the very definition of a corporate gig from A to Z.

[Quentin]

... Back40 and Quentin: I don't order online because I shop locally, keep my money in my community much as possible, don't want unseen imperfections arriving at my door, and find transfer fees as a rather unnecessary expenditure when driving to my LGS or Cabelas costs less in gas, I can see what I'm buying, and I can leave with it at my convenience. Only sucky thing is, neither is really on board about ordering things they don't normally carry. Windhams are carried everywhere I go, Sigs only slightly less, tons of Colts, S&Ws, and Bushys/DPMS/Olympic...

That's a good point, MMM, I agonize over such decisions too. I like to support local businesses but in a smaller community the selection isn't great and the in-shop knowledge level isn't the best. Like buying electronics, trucks and other things you have to become your own expert in important purchases. I do have one gun shop I like and support but when it comes to ARs the only way I'm gonna get exactly what I want is to order the upper and have it shipped to my door. The stripped lower and other parts I tend to buy locally.

The worst thing about many of the shops around here is the poor information given. According to them whatever they have in stock is the best and if they don't stock it it's junk. And the stuff in stock tends to be DPMS, BM, S&W and Colt. The latter two are the only ones I'd consider but not midlength or pencil profile, so that's that. (Recently WW and SIG M400 have shown up at Walmart but not exactly what I want.)

Anyway, the point is to get what YOU want. Your money, your rifle.

[meanmrmustard]

That's a good point, MMM, I agonize over such decisions too. I like to support local businesses but in a smaller community the selection isn't great and the in-shop knowledge level isn't the best. Like buying electronics, trucks and other things you have to become your own expert in important purchases. I do have one gun shop I like and support but when it comes to ARs the only way I'm gonna get exactly what I want is to order the upper and have it shipped to my door. The stripped lower and other parts I tend to buy locally.

The worst thing about many of the shops around here is the poor information given. According to them whatever they have in stock is the best and if they don't stock it it's junk. And the stuff in stock tends to be DPMS, BM, S&W and Colt. The latter two are the only ones I'd consider but not midlength or pencil profile, so that's that. (Recently WW and SIG M400 have shown up at Walmart but not exactly what I want.)

Anyway, the point is to get what YOU want. Your money, your rifle.
That IS important, getting what I want. I'm looking at BCMs as we speak, but I'm hearing a lot of positive in the WW. I've found it for less than expected.

I've owned Smiths, and they are awesome.

[jim243]

Not sure I can be of any help on this post. But I have owned two AR's built by the people in Windham, ME (Bushmaster). They have both been of excelent quality and more important accuracy. My first AR was an Armalite AR-15 purchased in 1969 and kept for 20 years until I had to sell it for monitary reasons. The next a Bushmaster Varminter certified at 0.5. MOA actually it shot at 0.33 MAO at 100 yards. The last a Bushmaster C-15 Ultralite that I couldn't pass up at Cabela's for $599.00. That was the one AR that I bought as a winter project gun to see what I could do with it. (was looking for another handgun at the time).

To me the most important part of any rifle is the chamber and barrel. The two companies that I feel spend the most time on making sure their barrels and chambers are cut correctly each and every time is Savage and Windham. Every thing else is replaceable.

You can get a base model of any rifle and add to it whatever makes you happy. To me it was the pistol grip and butt stock that had to go on the C-15. After that I wanted a Quadrail (not sure I would go that route again, but it sure stiffened the pencil barrel and improved accuracy by 200 %).

I have seen many builds with other mfg's parts (generally running around $1,500 per build). I have yet to see any that proform any better than my cheap build (partial build). So I guess the point is that I would buy another AR from the people at Windham, ME in a heartbeat without any reservations.

Just my opinion
Jim

[meanmrmustard]

Not sure I can be of any help on this post. But I have owned two AR's built by the people in Windham, ME (Bushmaster). They have both been of excelent quality and more important accuracy. My first AR was an Armalite AR-15 purchased in 1969 and kept for 20 years until I had to sell it for monitary reasons. The next a Bushmaster Varminter certified at 0.5. MOA actually it shot at 0.33 MAO at 100 yards. The last a Bushmaster C-15 Ultralite that I couldn't pass up at Cabela's for $599.00. That was the one AR that I bought as a winter project gun to see what I could do with it. (was looking for another handgun at the time).

To me the most important part of any rifle is the chamber and barrel. The two companies that I feel spend the most time on making sure their barrels and chambers are cut correctly each and every time is Savage and Windham. Every thing else is replaceable.

You can get a base model of any rifle and add to it whatever makes you happy. To me it was the pistol grip and butt stock that had to go on the C-15. After that I wanted a Quadrail (not sure I would go that route again, but it sure stiffened the pencil barrel and improved accuracy by 200 %).

I have seen many builds with other mfg's parts (generally running around $1,500 per build). I have yet to see any that proform any better than my cheap build (partial build). So I guess the point is that I would buy another AR from the people at Windham, ME in a heartbeat without any reservations.

Just my opinion
Jim
Thanks, Jim. All info, good or bad, is valued. I'm hearing literally nothing but good things about Windham. Once ties were cut, these folks have taken the best from their old business and have built something special. That's the gist I'm getting thus far.

I've many days to decide, but so far, WW is winning out on being the rifle I choose.

[Tigerjeebs]

Hi, thought I'd chime in

I originally went shopping for a MP15 sport and came across the WW MPC. At my LGS the MPC was 100 more than the sport and had a number of features I loved. CL barrel, FA, dust cover, non forged trigger guard. Now that said, the front sight post is not F marked. If you mount a MBUS you will need to raise the front post or buy a taller post to make up for it. Also, it sports a commercial buffer tube. Aslo With the tube, the castle nut is not staked. (Edit: it also sports an m16 BCG, not an AR15 and does not have an H buffer).

Those are the only knocks against the rifle. The tube is a very easy fix. The gas key is properly staked, and all else is fairly mil spec except for the 1/9 barrel. As I reload, 55 gr is all I shoot. This was never a problem for me. The trigger is heavy, but mine has a clean break and I don't mind it.

I have just north of 2k rounds through it. Not a single malfunction. I've ran Pmags and cheap AR stoner metal mags to great success. The first 1k were all fairly slow fire. The last 1k have been abusive, as I have almost entirely shot those rounds with simulated full auto through the use of the slide fire stock. The rifle has performed perfectly. I've ran 90 rounds through it as fast as I could change the mags. Smoking barrel and all. Narry an issue.

As for accuracy, I've ran mostly iron sights. I recently switched to a vortex 1x strikefire with a 4 moa dot. I can easily pick off bowling pins from 50-75 yards which more than fulfills my needs with a non magnified optic.

I have nothing but praise for the rifle which at 799 was a bargain for the quality windham seems to offer.

(Last edit, included a bit of rifle porn of my rifle in its current configuration.)http://s10.postimage.org/m6oatuytl/image.jpg

[Quentin]

Hi, thought I'd chime in

I originally went shopping for a MP15 sport and came across the WW MPC. At my LGS the MPC was 100 more than the sport and had a number of features I loved. CL barrel, FA, dust cover, non forged trigger guard. Now that said, the front sight post is not F marked. If you mount a MBUS you will need to raise the front post or buy a taller post to make up for it. Also, it sports a commercial buffer tube. Aslo With the tube, the castle nut is not staked. (Edit: it also sports an m16 BCG, not an AR15 and does not have an H buffer)...

I wonder if they're also going to sell the 0.04" taller front sight post like the old BM did! :D It was very annoying to need to buy the "Colt" post but at least BM made it available cheap, like $6. ArmaLite, DPMS and others also had this problem. (As long as you used their rear sights or carry handle it wasn't an issue but once you went third party with a milspec height rear sight you had to unscrew out the front sight until it wobbled.) Thanks for pointing out these issues, Tiger. I'm surprised WW didn't upgrade in this area, but you have to give them credit, they do make 'em like the old BM, warts and all. A few minor upgrades and they could have said "we build them better than Bushmaster". It's just wrong that so many companies still slap on short sights, commercial receiver extensions, etc. And since we're talking carbine length gas, they should use the H buffer.

[MistWolf]

Barrel steel is as important as the plating/coating. If the underlying steel is soft, chrome plating/nitriding will wear quicker. In general, barrels made of 4140 won't last as long as those made from 4150 CMV but by the time you shoot enough to wear out a 4140 barrel, you've done an impressive amount of shooting indeed. There is nothing wrong with a good stainless steel barrel either

...If I gave you $1k (keep dreamin) and told you to buy me any AR at or under that price (tax included) that wasn't a Colt, what are you buying?

You'd have to kick in extra to pay for the tax, but this rifle is a great value and it's not a Colt. It's also currently in stock
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/imgp0005-2_5.jpg
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
I have a PSA middy carbine w/SS barrel and I've run it hard and it works well.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/Carbine.jpg
A gun savvy police officer I know has a PSA M4 and it's also working well for him. The barrel of the one above is made by FN and the bolt is made of the right alloy and is properly tested. If you don't like the Aimpoint Patrol, it will sell within seconds if you put it up for sale for $300 on the internet to bring the base cost of the rifle down to $700

[Cluster Bomb]

The only thing a ww owner told me he didn't like about his Ww was the magazine he got supermarket mags because it felt cheap.

[Capybara]

Hi

I mainly have been using the SRC for plinking, I am easily hitting soda cans at 150 yards with irons but I have not yet sighted in the Nikon optic, it's on my to do list. So a soda can is about 5" tall at 150 yards? I am not a great shot with a rifle, clays are my game. Taking this to my first Appleseed so I can become a good rifle shot.

[meanmrmustard]

The only thing a ww owner told me he didn't like about his Ww was the magazine he got supermarket mags because it felt cheap.
So do pmags, but i trust those. I don't like proprietary goodies anyway. Thanks for the heads up.

[marine 97-03]

Hey mr mustard long time on talk...those WW guns are on my to get list....every review I've seen and guys I've talked to (at work) that own them love them and they will reply rather quickly if you email them with any questions ....they've been doing the AR thing for a while now (bushmaster) and the fact you can get in touch with them makes me feel a lot better.

[marine 97-03]

If you buy from a reputable manufacturer then it is not a problem buying online. Especially with 12 shops nearby transfer should be 25-30$ and since online prices are ~20% cheaper on a 1000$ gun that puts you way ahead. Which is why we keep teying to tell you that a quality gun can be had for the same price as the off brands you are obssesing over.

Btw try http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
Top rate dealer and you can put together exactly the gun you want (or should want)


Windham guns are NOT off brands by any means .....

[wojownik]

Concur. "Off brand" means a product sold inexpensively under a relatively unfamiliar brand name and often considered inferior to better known brands.

While WW may be relatively unfamiliar brand compared to some, they are an improved offshoot off the relocated former Bushmaster. They are not inexpensive, but they do show quality work. I have handled several of their R16M4A4T models, and have been generally impressed from what I have seen.

My only nit (and a verrry superficial one a that) is that I don't personally like their rollmark - something about that script strikes me as too ... fancy? On the other hand, the superficial plus is that the anodized coating on the WW rifles I've seen is quite a bit nicer than the old Bushmaster or Colt rifles I have.

[meanmrmustard]

If you buy from a reputable manufacturer then it is not a problem buying online. Especially with 12 shops nearby transfer should be 25-30$ and since online prices are ~20% cheaper on a 1000$ gun that puts you way ahead. Which is why we keep teying to tell you that a quality gun can be had for the same price as the off brands you are obssesing over.

Btw try http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
Top rate dealer and you can put together exactly the gun you want (or should want)
Off brand? Obsessing? Neither of these statements are reflected in my choice of rifle. I sincerely doubt one could call Sig Sauer an off brand with a straight face.

Once again, I shop locally, don't do transfers, and don't buy whole rifles online. There's no reputation that a dealer can have that trumps my personal inspection. I'm getting what I pay for, and I've looked at it personally. That's how I conduct my business. I could buy a lower locally, and have an upper built how I want, that would be acceptable. But, for proprietary rifles under one banner, I want to go over it with a fine tooth comb. So no, I don't obsess, I scrutinize.

[meanmrmustard]

Hey mr mustard long time on talk...those WW guns are on my to get list....every review I've seen and guys I've talked to (at work) that own them love them and they will reply rather quickly if you email them with any questions ....they've been doing the AR thing for a while now (bushmaster) and the fact you can get in touch with them makes me feel a lot better.
Thanks for that. I'd like to email them, ask some questions, and see what happens. I'm of the train of thought that good CS is a valuable selling point, more so than a roll mark. If they offer quality, courtesy, and at a similar or lesser price point than certain higher priced brands, then it's a no brainer for me.

[back40]

i think most people will agree that the upper is way more important than the lower in terms of build quality. so why is that you'll purchase an upper online, but insist on buying a lower locally? what are you "inspecting" on a lower that you're worried about having issues with purchasing sight unseen? your logic just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. if you are comfortable buying an upper and having it shipped, there is absolutely no reason not to buy a whole rifle and have it shipped. the transfer is done when your local shop receives the rifle in the exact manner that it will be if you buy it locally. buying local to support local business is one thing, but your talk about inspecting the rifle and not doing transfers doesn't make any sense.

eta...i checked out a sig m400 srp over the weekend. seemed like a perfectly fine rifle. i don't care for the ambi mag release, but that's me. with about 60 ars in the shop i didn't see one ww, so still haven't been able to inspect one.

[meanmrmustard]

i think most people will agree that the upper is way more important than the lower in terms of build quality. so why is that you'll purchase an upper online, but insist on buying a lower locally? what are you "inspecting" on a lower that you're worried about having issues with purchasing sight unseen? your logic just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. if you are comfortable buying an upper and having it shipped, there is absolutely no reason not to buy a whole rifle and have it shipped. the transfer is done when your local shop receives the rifle in the exact manner that it will be if you buy it locally. buying local to support local business is one thing, but your talk about inspecting the rifle and not doing transfers doesn't make any sense.

eta...i checked out a sig m400 srp over the weekend. seemed like a perfectly fine rifle. i don't care for the ambi mag release, but that's me. with about 60 ars in the shop i didn't see one ww, so still haven't been able to inspect one.
I'm digging the Sig M400 with the Magpul crap already on it and Troy flip up sight for $917.

If I have the upper built to my specs from an online source, I'm already in for having to ship back if not to my liking. If I purchase a rifle from a shop that has a defect that I catch before flipping the cash, then it ain't coming home and I'm not going to be responsible for sending it to the manufacturer. Makes all the sense to me.

[back40]

i think i get where you're coming from, but still, shipping the whole thing back isn't much (if any) more than shipping back the upper. most gunbroker dealers even offer an inspection period.

now if you're one of those guys that frets over teeny blemsihes, and want absolute perfect fit and finish, well ok. i'm not one of those guys, at least not with an ar.

[meanmrmustard]

i think i get where you're coming from, but still, shipping the whole thing back isn't much (if any) more than shipping back the upper. most gunbroker dealers even offer an inspection period.

now if you're one of those guys that frets over teeny blemsihes, and want absolute perfect fit and finish, well ok. i'm not one of those guys, at least not with an ar.
I kinda am. For what they cost, I want to be the one putting blemishes on it.

Part of me thinks I may try Colt again, but I've got that really bad taste in my mouth.

[back40]

i hear ya. i'm that way with most any other gun, but over the years i've loosened up a bit. major blemishes are still a no-no, but most everything i own are shooters, and although i don't beat on them, i don't mind a bit of "character"

that fde anodized colt i looked at looked pretty darn nice!:neener:

[meanmrmustard]

i hear ya. i'm that way with most any other gun, but over the years i've loosened up a bit. major blemishes are still a no-no, but most everything i own are shooters, and although i don't beat on them, i don't mind a bit of "character"

that fde anodized colt i looked at looked pretty darn nice!:neener:
The Sigs wearing OD furniture, A3 flat top with A2 front sight, f marked, with barrel cut. Sexy.

[marine 97-03]

Mr. Mustard ...I don't think your "taking a chance" on a WW AR info on them at first was a little hard to come by.....but never was it bad....and now reviews on there guns are in abundance with some time on google. From what I have put together on my on I would say they should be every bit as good as a PSA and have a lifetime transferable warranty that's says a lot in it self.

[meanmrmustard]

Mr. Mustard ...I don't think your "taking a chance" on a WW AR info on them at first was a little hard to come by.....but never was it bad....and now reviews on there guns are in abundance with some time on google. From what I have put together on my on I would say they should be every bit as good as a PSA and have a lifetime transferable warranty that's says a lot in it self.
I didn't previously know that they had that type of warranty. That's actually really great.

[marine 97-03]

I didn't either ...until last night while at work I was reading a review ...might have been in the truth about guns can't remember I read several ...any way they made reference to there warranty and I was a bit taken back ....so I look that up and there you have it:)

[meanmrmustard]

I didn't either ...until last night while at work I was reading a review ...might have been in the truth about guns can't remember I read several ...any way they made reference to there warranty and I was a bit taken back ....so I look that up and there you have it:)
Only rifles I've personally owned that had that kinda warranty were Hi Point carbines, and they're built like tanks. This is good news.

[Capybara]

Yes, that warranty also played part in my decision to buy a WW. I appreciate any company that will stand behind their products that way.

[Quentin]

A good warranty is nice but only goes so far - the quality of the rifle is what concerns me. I warrant my AR builds but then I only build for myself. :D (And research/select every part myself.)

[Cluster Bomb]

I know ww has an online warranty application. Idk if u must fill it out for the warranty to apply.

I personal would want an ar built in quality like ww than dpms or bushmaster

I have handled a colt. And I was disappointed.

Building your own I feal has its drawbacks imo

I think I am in love with ww varmiter with 5round mag that takes standard mags aswell. But I can't validate spending that kind of money...thing ill wate out the ar frenzy lol. And buy an ak.

[Flashcube]

Sturmgewehre on Youtube has a very favourable review of two of Windham's offerings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PVEitTfxm0&feature=plcp

Been eyeing their "MPC" model since my local started stocking them. Seem like nicely put together rifles for the money.

[meanmrmustard]

I know ww has an online warranty application. Idk if u must fill it out for the warranty to apply.

I personal would want an ar built in quality like ww than dpms or bushmaster

I have handled a colt. And I was disappointed.

Building your own I feal has its drawbacks imo

I think I am in love with ww varmiter with 5round mag that takes standard mags aswell. But I can't validate spending that kind of money...thing ill wate out the ar frenzy lol. And buy an ak.
AKs I have plenty of. I'm on a milsurp kick lately, but late winter will yield a new AR, purely for a closet rifle.

No questions asked; that's what I'm reading as per the overview of the WW warranty. That goes far.

[meanmrmustard]

I've officially made a decision, and shall build upon it.

I'm buying one of three rifles:
Sig M400 (Enhanced)
Windham Weaponry MPC
Another S&W M&P Sport

The first two, I like what's offered all around. The last, we have history, and I know I can trust it. Whether or not I'm ready for a new flavor (having never owned WW or Sig ARs) is the hard part.

[Cornhusker77]

I'm another WW fan.
I bought one a couple of months ago, and I can't find a single fault.
It's never had one problem, it's accurate and good looking.
A friend of mine bought a Ruger SR556 and both of us agreed the trigger and balance on the WW felt better to us.

[meanmrmustard]

I'm another WW fan.
I bought one a couple of months ago, and I can't find a single fault.
It's never had one problem, it's accurate and good looking.
A friend of mine bought a Ruger SR556 and both of us agreed the trigger and balance on the WW felt better to us.
Isn't that 556 GP, not DI? While I love me some gas pistons, that may explain the balance difference.p, being that they're typically front heavy.

[OilyPablo]

Sig M400 (Enhanced)
Windham Weaponry MPC

Tough choice. By all rights they are both good. My heart and eye really likes the Sig M400. The Sig has a few unique features. They probably have equivalent accuracy.
I vote for WW so you can give us a review.

[OilyPablo]

I don't think of the Ruger SR556 as an AR-15, but that's another bowl of soup.

[meanmrmustard]

I don't think of the Ruger SR556 as an AR-15, but that's another bowl of soup.
No more so than the Colt 6940P, but it is what it is.

Me? Review? It'll be a bit before I can get to that. But, as soon as I spring for one of the three, you'll get a review. Folks on here know my feelings as regarding the Sport. The other two are untested waters.

[OilyPablo]

Review - heck yeah. I figure you won't pull any punches. I've not read a ton of WW reviews, that's my main motivator as I've not got a dog in the fight. Maybe just start wheeling and dealing for all three and buy the one with the lowest price. When I was looking, seems you could get a great deal on the Sig. I refuse to buy a S&W after my crappy experience, and the WW remains an intriguing entry so to speak.

As a side note for point of reference here's the warranty on my Daniel Defense


We guarantee all of the products we sell. If you are not 100% satisfied with any of our products, contact us and we will send UPS to you for a return. As soon as we receive your return, we will give you a full refund.

[marine 97-03]

Tough choice. By all rights they are both good. My heart and eye really likes the Sig M400. The Sig has a few unique features. They probably have equivalent accuracy.
I vote for WW so you can give us a review.


The M400 doesn't have a threaded barrel so no flash hider or muzzle break....I like them but I would go with a WW or m&p 15 .....that's my current situation

[meanmrmustard]

The M400 doesn't have a threaded barrel so no flash hider or muzzle break....I like them but I would go with a WW or m&p 15 .....that's my current situation
It does. Standard threading with A2 birdcage.

I'm still debating buying another Sport. You should if you've not already, and the GK is properly staked btw.

[OilyPablo]

The M400 doesn't have a threaded barrel so no flash hider or muzzle break

Wow - I assumed it did. It looks like it here:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/m400-enhanced-od-green.aspx

Click on the barrel picture.

[meanmrmustard]

Review - heck yeah. I figure you won't pull any punches. I've not read a ton of WW reviews, that's my main motivator as I've not got a dog in the fight. Maybe just start wheeling and dealing for all three and buy the one with the lowest price. When I was looking, seems you could get a great deal on the Sig. I refuse to buy a S&W after my crappy experience, and the WW remains an intriguing entry so to speak.

As a side note for point of reference here's the warranty on my Daniel Defense
What happened with Smith? Sounds like you had a run in with them like I did with Colt!

[meanmrmustard]

Wow - I assumed it did. It looks like it here:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/m400-enhanced-od-green.aspx

Click on the barrel picture.
It does.

[OilyPablo]

We need to stop agreeing. :)

[meanmrmustard]

We need to stop agreeing. :)
Indeed...wait, we did it AGAIN!!!

[marine 97-03]

The one at walmart down here don't now the sig 516 dose ....the m400 they sale here has a MOE foregrip A2 stock flat top optics ready but comes with no sights. . It reminds me of the. Remington vtr r15

[dprice3844444]

i just said heck with it,took the accident money and bought a colt le6940 to go along with my 2 smiths,2 sgw's and the other 3 full autos.

[marine 97-03]

Ok I looked its the m400 HUNTER model they have here:cuss:

[OilyPablo]

What happened with Smith?

Nothing to do with AR's. I bought a NEW S&W BodyGuard .380. I know, I know. I wanted something tiny. Anyway to keep it short, it broke or failed in every way possible. Fixed and failed again. Side pins constantly sliding out. Internal screws backing out and jaming the gun. Amazing. Oh and can you say 20 lb. LONG pull on a tiny gun. My dealer gave me a full refund. Bought a Sig P238 and that thing is unstoppable. Sorry for interrupting your thread.

I love used S&W revolvers and I LOVE my S&W 1006. I just don't get excited about their plastic. Now their AR's are fine from what I read.

[meanmrmustard]

The one at walmart down here don't now the sig 516 dose ....the m400 they sale here has a MOE foregrip A2 stock flat top optics ready but comes with no sights. . It reminds me of the. Remington vtr r15
Or the DPMS Prairie Panther. Crowned, no flash hider.

I'm going to see, for purely research sake, how the WW fares against the CHART. The disclaimer is, I don't NEED mil spec crap. But, there's a short list of things I do need:

M4 feed ramps
Buffer tube
Staked gas key and castle nut
F marked sight base
Lastly, warranty

That is all. Everything after that is a non issue. But I'd like to see where it stands. I know barrel steel isn't in spec.

[marine 97-03]

The WW ar's look and seem rock solid from whst I can tell

[meanmrmustard]

Nothing to do with AR's. I bought a NEW S&W BodyGuard .380. I know, I know. I wanted something tiny. Anyway to keep it short, it broke or failed in every way possible. Fixed and failed again. Side pins constantly sliding out. Internal screws backing out and jaming the gun. Amazing. Oh and can you say 20 lb. LONG pull on a tiny gun. My dealer gave me a full refund. Bought a Sig P238 and that thing is unstoppable. Sorry for interrupting your thread.

I love used S&W revolvers and I LOVE my S&W 1006. I just don't get excited about their plastic. Now their AR's are fine from what I read.
It's ok. My deal was with the 6920 not having a staked gas key. CS refused to solve the ordeal, and were rude to boot. We can't win them all.

[meanmrmustard]

The WW ar's look and seem rock solid from whst I can tell
They do indeed. I noticed not wiggle and the upper to lower fit was tight. No shimming or wedging required!

[marine 97-03]

I think most of the WW ar are 1:9 twist.....I like the fact that the S&w are 1:8....

[Cornhusker77]

Isn't that 556 GP, not DI? While I love me some gas pistons, that may explain the balance difference.p, being that they're typically front heavy.
Yeah, it has a gas piston
The Ruger was a nice gun, don't get me wrong, but for the price difference, it wasn't that nice :)

[meanmrmustard]

I think most of the WW ar are 1:9 twist.....I like the fact that the S&w are 1:8....
This is true as well. I'm not so much on the fence over twist rate as most bullet weights I shoot are stabilized well by the 1:9 and 1:8. What I do think I'd miss, however, is the 5 r rifling. Some think its a gimmick, those namely with no experience with it, but the concept is actually surprisingly intelligent. In the Sport, it makes for a more accurate rifle, in my experience, to those that are chrome lined. Back that up with melonite coating, and you've got a great combination.

Something tells me, marine, that you're trying to bring me back to the dark side...

[meanmrmustard]

Yeah, it has a gas piston
The Ruger was a nice gun, don't get me wrong, but for the price difference, it wasn't that nice :)
My LGS has them for $999 at this time. It's not a gun I would mind owning, but I'm waiting with crossed fingers that someday gas piston ARs get a little help from non proprietary parts manufacturers, an we see more switch/swap stuff for that platform. As it stands, me using a Ruger and you using say a Stag, we can't swap parts in a fire fight, at the range, or at the kitchen table as far as operating systems are concerned.

I keep to AKs for GP. ARs for that dirty DI!

[marine 97-03]

This is true as well. I'm not so much on the fence over twist rate as most bullet weights I shoot are stabilized well by the 1:9 and 1:8. What I do think I'd miss, however, is the 5 r rifling. Some think its a gimmick, those namely with no experience with it, but the concept is actually surprisingly intelligent. In the Sport, it makes for a more accurate rifle, in my experience, to those that are chrome lined. Back that up with melonite coating, and you've got a great combination.

Something tells me, marine, that you're trying to bring me back to the dark side...



Dark side meeee ....nnnoooooo......but with its price point and what it brings to the table hard to pass up

[meanmrmustard]

Dark side meeee ....nnnoooooo......but with its price point and what it brings to the table hard to pass up
Trust me, I know. I've owned two: Which is easily done at $750 after taxes at my Cabelas per rifle. $1000 into one of them, the other left stock. Either deadly.

Chinks in my chain, man.

[Devonai]

I used to own a Bushmaster (made in Maine) that worked fine, so when I saw Windham Weaponry in the store I pulled out my smart phone and looked them up online. The rifle already had all the features I wanted except for an optic, so I ponied up $900 and bought it.

In Connecticut, I had to compromise for an A2 lookalike muzzle device and a fixed stock, but I'm not trying to shoot with several inches of body armor on my shoulder so a fixed stock is fine for me. The rifle has been running fine so far, only about 300 rounds downrange; however, I was absolutely unimpressed with the backup iron sights that came with it and quickly switched to a Burris AR-332 3x optic.

[KansasSasquatch]

It's sounding like the only bad part of the WW is the iron sights?

[meanmrmustard]

It's sounding like the only bad part of the WW is the iron sights?
And the lettering thus far. I'm sold on MBUS.

[meanmrmustard]

Are there any Sig owners in the house?

[Quentin]

It's sounding like the only bad part of the WW is the iron sights?
And commercial diameter receiver extension and short front sight which would affect the MBUS rear. If other things, I've forgotten.

[BudW]

........................

[meanmrmustard]

And commercial diameter receiver extension and short front sight which would affect the MBUS rear. If other things, I've forgotten.
Commercial buffer doesn't bother me. It's a non issue.

The sight however, does. Thanks for that info.

I'm not getting the Windham, based soley on sight height and price. The Sig is, from my reading purely, a better buy.

I wish I could change the title of this thread. The Windham rifle seemed nice, but I don't buy based on looks. I go on value per dollar. I'm now changing the game:

Sig M400 enhanced or another Sport. Decisions, decisions.

[back40]

you may want to get your hands on a sig if you haven't. i don't care for the ambi mag release, and didn't realize their lowers were built this way until i handled one in person.

[meanmrmustard]

you may want to get your hands on a sig if you haven't. i don't care for the ambi mag release, and didn't realize their lowers were built this way until i handled one in person.
I did at Wally World. The ambi doesn't bother me. It feels, oddly, kinda weighty.

It's over a pound heavier than the Sport. To me, that's important.

[back40]

iunderstand your concern with weight. ocassionaly i find myself contemplating going back to a standard carbine. light and simple. however, the rail on my gun is worth the extra weight for what it provides in light mounting capablilties and ergos. it does change how it handles though.

[meanmrmustard]

iunderstand your concern with weight. ocassionaly i find myself contemplating going back to a standard carbine. light and simple. however, the rail on my gun is worth the extra weight for what it provides in light mounting capablilties and ergos. it does change how it handles though.
I won't be adding lights or lasers. When I had my first Sport, it wore Magpul furniture, moe vertical grip, riser, optic, loaded mag of 30 62 gr...7.5 pounds total.

That's what the Sig weighs empty. I need to research it more, it's features mostly.

[marine 97-03]

The sporty is the answer ....

[back40]

the light is a necessity for me. other than that, it's back up irons, a micro red dot, and a simple sling.

[meanmrmustard]

The sporty is the answer ....
I'm forgetting, however, that the SRC has a railed gas block. That would remedy any issues with irons. MBUS front and rear would be grand.

My best bud got his first Sport last night. He's in love, obviously, when he celebrated by blowing through 300 rounds of Tula. Filthy, hot and never skipped a beat right outta the box. All he did was hit it with CLP before firing. Show off.

[Infidel4life11]

Hey brother, I can't believe you sold the sport.

You know where I stand on ARs.

My father in law has a Windham bushy which is one of the better AR's I've shot, before I realized that we had not had a single FTF, FTE, or jam we had shot over 25mags through it in less than 1 hour. Coatings were nice and my father in law dropped the windham bushy in the gravel driveway after I dusted it off there wasn't a scratch on it, you couldn't tell. WW takes AR's very personal, with pride, standards, the lack of quality in the market is why they came back into the market.

I was wanting a Sig for a while and its still on the table, I got to barrow one for a few weeks and I enjoyed it a lot and it's currently the picture on my desktop. Fit and finish is awesome I group sub MOA or MOA with both rilfes.

Now my 2cents I don't know if you remember me talking about the PSA/spikes lower I built for a friend but it's becoming my favorite ARs.

My BCM I sold is still the only gun I've ever missed, it's so bad I have dreams about it. If I could only have one gun the rest of my life it would be a BCM. I've taken their bolts on deployments with me, I've seen their rifles down range, in action, and it's the stuff of legends.

I'm a Cold Hammer Forged, Mid Length gas system guy so that's my bread and butter and now days if a new rifle doesn't have those 2 things it's not for me. Have you given CMMG a really good look they are local to you and me, I'm averaging 600rds a week with mine and the only thing I can complain about is the teflon coating on the bolt isn't the US Army issue mil-spec stuff I love so much. But it hasn't let me down yet and is my #1 gun.

[meanmrmustard]

Hey brother, I can't believe you sold the sport.

You know where I stand on ARs.

My father in law has a Windham bushy which is one of the better AR's I've shot, before I realized that we had not had a single FTF, FTE, or jam we had shot over 25mags through it in less than 1 hour. Coatings were nice and my father in law dropped the windham bushy in the gravel driveway after I dusted it off there wasn't a scratch on it, you couldn't tell. WW takes AR's very personal, with pride, standards, the lack of quality in the market is why they came back into the market.

I was wanting a Sig for a while and its still on the table, I got to barrow one for a few weeks and I enjoyed it a lot and it's currently the picture on my desktop. Fit and finish is awesome I group sub MOA or MOA with both rilfes.

Now my 2cents I don't know if you remember me talking about the PSA/spikes lower I built for a friend but it's becoming my favorite ARs.

My BCM I sold is still the only gun I've ever missed, it's so bad I have dreams about it. If I could only have one gun the rest of my life it would be a BCM. I've taken their bolts on deployments with me, I've seen their rifles down range, in action, and it's the stuff of legends.

I'm a Cold Hammer Forged, Mid Length gas system guy so that's my bread and butter and now days if a new rifle doesn't have those 2 things it's not for me. Have you given CMMG a really good look they are local to you and me, I'm averaging 600rds a week with mine and the only thing I can complain about is the teflon coating on the bolt isn't the US Army issue mil-spec stuff I love so much. But it hasn't let me down yet and is my #1 gun.
I have some time with CMMG, and indeed they're nice. I didn't think of them. I'm ashamed.

PSA is an option, but they're constantly back ordered.

[Infidel4life11]

PSA, has the uppers I want. I get that it's not a whole rifle and quality lowers are getting just as hard to come by. But that has been a lot of fun to build and shoot my friend thinks I'm some kind gun building guru. I think you would really like them, when they get some BCG's in I'm going to by 5. I'm currently dropping hints to the wife for a christmas present for psa.

[meanmrmustard]

PSA, has the uppers I want. I get that it's not a whole rifle and quality lowers are getting just as hard to come by. But that has been a lot of fun to build and shoot my friend thinks I'm some kind gun building guru. I think you would really like them, when they get some BCG's in I'm going to by 5. I'm currently dropping hints to the wife for a christmas present for psa.
If I go that route, the barreled mid length 16" CL with m16 BCG, BCM gunfighter large latch, and I'd prefer a S&W complete lower, well, or something 7075 T6.

Edit to add: Holy crap! Have you seen the 16" PA-15CR moe? I want THAT!!!!!!!

[Infidel4life11]

If I go that route, the barreled mid length 16" CL with m16 BCG, BCM gunfighter large latch, and I'd prefer a S&W complete lower, well, or something 7075 T6.

Edit to add: Holy crap! Have you seen the 16" PA-15CR moe? I want THAT!!!!!!!
I agree 100% that would be a nice weapon and they do crazy deals on some holidays. I'm trying my hardest to get their ML CHF CL 14.7 upper. And yes I'm drinking PSA kool-aid.

[Quentin]

... Edit to add: Holy crap! Have you seen the 16" PA-15CR moe? I want THAT!!!!!!!
I just saw that deal tonight... Wow! I wouldn't look any further... $800... Really blows away the WW and Sig.

[marine 97-03]

Finally a complete rifle ready to go for one low price. Our PA-15CR Carbine starts with one of our Premium chrome-lined Mil-spec steel barrels in the versatile M4 profile, mated to our forged aluminum upper, and finished off with a Midwest Industries SS12G2 12" lightweight free float rail, low profile gas block and A2 Flash hider. The forged lower is built with our 6 position Mil spec size buffer tube and stock, Standard PSA lower parts kit with MOE grip and trigger guard. The rifle is topped off with Magpul front and rear back up sights. It comes with one 30 Round Magpul Pmag Magazine (where allowed by law) so all you have to provide is the ammo to start having fun 16" barrel length 5.56 Nato Chamber 1 in 7" twist Chrome Moly Vanadium barre Chrome lined barre Forged upper and lowe Magpul front and rear BUS 12" Midwest Industries SSG2 Free Float Rai Magpul MOE grip, trigger guard and stock

[meanmrmustard]

^thats the one.

To my door, assuming this price stays intact until I can buy it, would be $835. That's after shipping and transfer. Damn, I don't like ordering online, but I may break that cycle over this rifle.

I very rarely say this, but I have to have THAT.

[Infidel4life11]

WOW I just took a look at that thing. I think I'm in love.

[meanmrmustard]

WOW I just took a look at that thing. I think I'm in love.
You and me both. Purchase is happening around the beginning of Dec. I'm obsessed.

Like the specs, the layout, the furniture is familiar, and I can get it to the nearest ffl for less than the Windham. Sold.

Mods can close this, or we can change discussion to PSA or similar rifles if anyone wants. I got what i needed!!!

Edit: offer expires the 8th. Damn! Oh well, $1000 in December isn't going to stop me, and I was going to spend that anyway. This is probably going to be the best AR I've ever owned. Now, the wait.

[marine 97-03]

.....but the S&W Sport would be good too........ :)

[meanmrmustard]

.....but the S&W Sport would be good too........ :)
Absolutely. That, also, is an option. Did you buy yours yet?

[back40]

glad you found something you like! i'm sure you'll be plenty satisfied with the psa. be sure and post a range report when it arrives. it may be december and cold, but that's no excuse.;)

[marine 97-03]

no not yet I'm like you prob Dec. Or Jan. And its been down to a WW R16m4a4t and the sporty ..both at academy .

[meanmrmustard]

no not yet I'm like you prob Dec. Or Jan. And its been down to a WW R16m4a4t and the sporty ..both at academy .
Sporty, no doubt. Having asked about this brand, I've learned little, but just enough to sway me.

I've no qualms whatsoever buying another Sport. The Colt/BCM/DD boyz will tell you of better guns, but never deny what the Sport is: Rifles that run, keep running, are popular, and have a fan base with reviews to prove their worth in the AR platform. I'm no fan of short sights, and if I'm paying "mil spec" prices, I want mil spec even if its not my end result.

Therefore, my next AR will be my 3rd Sport, with which I'm resolutely intimate with, or a PSA.

Marine, we need to keep up with each other and compare notes. As far as I can tell, you have a military background, and all I can offer is a vast learning of the Sport. It's not my first rifle of the platform, nor the last. If there was ever a rifle that exuded simplicity, reliability, accuracy, and cost efficiency...it's the Sport. There are cheaper rifles with more features. I'd compare footnotes on whose the boss in value per dollar. It's no Colt, but its more accurate with features that make it a good dive into AR15s as a fighting/target/truck rifle and more.

Then there's the PSA. Bringing a whole new plethora of specs to the game. At $255 more than the Sport overall averaged, the PSA is, from what I can tell, MORE than mil spec. This is where my loyalty to a fine rifle is compromised purely on what is offered. MI free float tube, monolithic rail, MBUS front and rear, mil spec barrel, mil spec BCG, moe furniture, lightweight, forged upper, lower, and buffer, lifetime warranty. It's a tough call.

For accuracy, without even knowing the PSAs capabilities, I'd say the Sport is probably the most accurate carbine length rifle I've had the pleasure to use right outta the box.

Marine, what is your extensive use of chrome lined barrels? Accuracy? Between those you listed, based on my research and my experiences, I'd take the Sport over the WW.

[Quentin]

Well I'm a "Colt/BCM/DD boy" but do think the Sport is a great choice for a rock bottom price AR. Also, I wouldn't consider any others in the ultra-low price range. I do have a S&W M&P-15 lower receiver and they do a nice job, great finish and a nicely flared magwell. I assume the Sport lower is similar except for its integrated trigger guard.

However I recently bought a PSA upper and can recommend it highly. I wouldn't call it MORE than milspec but with its FN barrel and BCG (probably FN BCG, they aren't allowed to say at this time) it's solidly milspec unlike the Sport and many other ARs. It compares well with my DD and BCM (though I don't have a PSA BCG as they were out of stock, so I went with BCM).

[meanmrmustard]

Well I'm a "Colt/BCM/DD boy" but do think the Sport is a great choice for a rock bottom price AR. Also, I wouldn't consider any others in the ultra-low price range. I do have a S&W M&P-15 lower receiver and they do a nice job, great finish and a nicely flared magwell. I assume the Sport lower is similar except for its integrated trigger guard.

However I recently bought a PSA upper and can recommend it highly. I wouldn't call it MORE than milspec but with its FN barrel and BCG (probably FN BCG, they aren't allowed to say at this time) it's solidly milspec unlike the Sport and many other ARs. It compares well with my DD and BCM (though I don't have a PSA BCG as they were out of stock, so I went with BCM).
I meant "more" as in it has features I find superior, namely the FF tube and sights. I meant no disrespect by naming those three manufacturers, wasn't a jab at the brands. Purists usually associate those three brands with the platform. Of the three, me choosing, I'd prefer BCM over the others. Weapons made by those who've used them, can't beat that.

You're right, I wouldn't recommend any other AR whole heartedly in the same price bracket as I would the Sport. Not to say others are bad, but I only stand behind the capabilities of the Sport. But, that PSA is a sweet number, and I feel a lil silly to have abandoned the WW so easily. But, it's not what I'm looking for.

[meanmrmustard]

glad you found something you like! i'm sure you'll be plenty satisfied with the psa. be sure and post a range report when it arrives. it may be december and cold, but that's no excuse.;)
Absolutely not! I run rain or shine and have the land to do it. Cold weather is hard on ARs, MO winters in Jan/Feb is the perfect test ground for failure.

[357_]

I agree with this. For 1K there are so many known quality ARs so why take a chance on Windham or trust a few one-of-kind reviews from people you don't know?

And though I'm someone you don't know, I have three ARs based on upper receivers from BCM, Daniel Defense and PSA which came in around $800-1100. BCM and DD of course have impecable reputations. The PSA was the $800 rifle and its specs on paper equal the BCM and DD. I can't tell any difference in operation but then we're back to one-of...

And heck, you can find Colt 6920s for $1047 at Walmart!

Sorry for the ramble but I just can't see paying that much for Windham when you could have BCM or Colt for $50+ more.

+1 For the colt

Sent from my own phone using Tapatalk.

[meanmrmustard]

+1 For the colt

Sent from my own phone using Tapatalk.
Colts not an option. I've specified this.

[OilyPablo]

Apparently the whole thread was not read :D

My buddy has a PSA middy. I have two words: Exceptional value. And it's the reason I bought my 6.8 middy upper from PSA.

I do have a question: I know it's $400 over your range, but what are your thoughts on the Daniel Defense?

[meanmrmustard]

Apparently the whole thread was not read :D

My buddy has a PSA middy. I have two words: Exceptional value. And it's the reason I bought my 6.8 middy upper from PSA.

I do have a question: I know it's $400 over your range, but what are your thoughts on the Daniel Defense?
I've no experience with that rifle. Fill me in.

I'm looking at a light profile middy 556 upper from PSA for $299. Slap a BCM gunfighter and auto BCG, buy lower locally. That'd be an option too. I can Frakenstein a rifle with quality stuff under my original spending cap.

[Quentin]

... You're right, I wouldn't recommend any other AR whole heartedly in the same price bracket as I would the Sport. Not to say others are bad, but I only stand behind the capabilities of the Sport. But, that PSA is a sweet number, and I feel a lil silly to have abandoned the WW so easily. But, it's not what I'm looking for.
I really don't hate the WW but corners have been cut and it's so new it doesn't have a long track record. Buying one would be like electing a President we know almost nothing about. Oh wait, we did that. :mad:

PSA hasn't been around that much longer but they are much more up front publishing detailed specs and they do use FN barrels and probably much more since FN is local to them. Comparing their upper to BCM and DD, I'd say they measure up.

The Sport really is a great buy when you can find them for $600. Myself, I'd kick in a little more and at least jump to PSA.

[Quentin]

I've no experience with that rifle. Fill me in.

I'm looking at a light profile middy 556 upper from PSA for $299. Slap a BCM gunfighter and auto BCG, buy lower locally. That'd be an option too. I can Frakenstein a rifle with quality stuff under my original spending cap.

That's exactly what I did (buy uppers to put on my lowers built up from a stripped receiver) using a DD upper, then a BCM upper and recently a PSA upper. Each was a 16" midlength, the DD is a CHF pencil profile, the BCM is a button rifled pencil profile and the PSA is a button rifled government profile. The DD got a DD BCG, BCM got BCM and the PSA got BCM (since the PSA BCG was out of stock when I ordered). Honestly they all are excellent so I'd have to say PSA is a steal at the prices they go for.


... My buddy has a PSA middy. I have two words: Exceptional value. And it's the reason I bought my 6.8 middy upper from PSA.

I do have a question: I know it's $400 over your range, but what are your thoughts on the Daniel Defense?

Of my uppers the Daniel Defense would be my favorite but as you said their complete rifles cost more. Of course you get a rail and hammer forged barrel so would have to add that to BCM or PSA to compare fairly. I bought my DD upper stripped (without rail or BCG/CH) two years ago from Smartgunner.com so my cost was very low, $380 then I added the DD BCG, BCM charging handle and MOE handguards to keep it KISS.

Configured the same, the differences between DD, BCM and PSA are hard to quantify. I'm glad I own all three but as it turned out I would say you could buy PSA and save the money. Performance-wise they should be the same (again, PSA is a new kid and my experience is only from one sample of each which honestly means very little - who knows what another sample would be like...)

[meanmrmustard]

I'm thinking about piecing the rifle together.

PSA upper
BCM FA BCG
BCM large latch Gunfighter
Magpul rear MBUS
I'm undecided on a lower...

[mshootnit]

I would find a del-ton midlength upper and put it on top of a aero precision lower built with a stag lpk and geissele SSA-E trigger. I would avoid the PSA stock kit and get a stag tube and CTR stock. That way you know you are going to have a good shoulder to capture your buffer detent unlike one of mine. For optics I would probly just stick a Leupold VX2 3X9 on there and a good sling.

[sturmgewehr]

I just bought another Windham rifle. They are very good rifles, especially at their price point. I now have 3 of them and the quality is consistent.

[bogon48]

I got my Windham MPC at a gun store here in VA last Feb for $785. I'm happy with it. Shoots about 1 minute of angle for me and seems well finished. I like the Windham story. They are also doing business with the law enforcement community too. I think it would be a dependable weapon.

[Infidel4life11]

Mustard, You can pick up a PSA blemished lower for under $60 and some other quality lowers (Spike's, PSA) off gunbroker for $100 give or take $20

[marine 97-03]

I'm thinking about piecing the rifle together.

PSA upper
BCM FA BCG
BCM large latch Gunfighter
Magpul rear MBUS
I'm undecided on a lower...

why not go with a m&p lower....great lowers.....and they look great with that M&P logo on the mag well...

[meanmrmustard]

why not go with a m&p lower....great lowers.....and they look great with that M&P logo on the mag well...
Due to circumstances, mainly the fiancé wanting a new range toy, the build isn't happening. I'm just going to buy two guns at the same time. I'm going to give Colt a second chance.

[OilyPablo]

Re: the Daniel Defense middy

I've no experience with that rifle. Fill me in.

Nothing mystical. Just the standard. When I touched and listed and contemplated everything came back to the Daniel Defense. Once I decided and bought the DD, I KNEW I had made a great decision. Even if you don't buy one, get to a dealer who carries them for a point of reference. Frankly the DD is better than the lower end Noveske products.

[Infidel4life11]

I'm a huge fan of the DDv7. It's on the "have to buy list".