(Shot shell) 12ga 7/8oz experiment went great.


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hAkron
September 30, 2012, 08:06 PM
I've been reloading 12ga for trap shooting for about a year. It can be really hard to save money over super saver Winchester and Federal cheapo shells. I have been working up...well, really working 'down' an economical, well shooting load. I started with the basic 1 1/8oz target load. Once I had that in the bag I moved to 1oz loads. Once I verified that would cycle in my CZ 912 I dropped to a 7/8oz load. Big difference in recoil. Very soft shooting and my scores stayed the same. I picked up a bag of clay buster 3/4oz 12ga Wads and we'll see if I can put together something accurate and reliable.

Just for information purposes, I'm using el cheap-o federal and Winchester hulls, and AA when I can find them. I'm staying in the 'medium warm' range using Red Dot powder. I use Clay Buster Wads and Fiocchi 209 style primers.

Once I have a few pet loads dialed in I will post my load data.

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oneounceload
September 30, 2012, 09:22 PM
I reload only 3/4 oz for both 12 and 20. I use Claybuster wads for both with Red Dot in 12 and Universal Clays in 20

Do NOT follow the load data that came with the wads - it runs too light and slow. I am using 18.5 Red Dot with 3/4. Why Alliant went to a 20 gauge load of powder in a 12 gauge load when you need more powder to keep the pressure up is beyond me, but emails between CB, Alliant and myself got the OK.

Shot some Super Sporting today and used my 3/4 reloads for targets out to 45 yards with great success. I found I need to use one .005 tighter constriction than I would use with 7/8 or 1oz loads

Use Remington hulls ANY of them will use the same recipe and reload the same - all with great longevity and consistently.

Do NOT mix Federal straight wall hulls with Winchester tapered ones - that will cause issues with powder migration, blooper, etc - you would need two different wads- one for the Fed hulls and one for the Win hulls

JLDickmon
September 30, 2012, 09:27 PM
when I can't find (run out of) AA hulls, I use those black Remington low-brass hulls..
Commonly known as Dove & Quail loads..

Have to use a different wad, but you can usually dumpster dive for them..

oneounceload
September 30, 2012, 09:43 PM
Both AA and Remington hulls are tapered - you should be able to use the same wads

To save even more $$, I use reclaimed shot - currently runs me $1/lb and with 3/4 oz loads, I get 533 from a 25# bag as opposed to 400 for 1oz loads

hAkron
September 30, 2012, 09:45 PM
Good to know about the clay busters load data being too light. Thanks for that.

bumpo628
October 1, 2012, 01:32 AM
You should try Promo powder. It uses the same load data as red dot, but it is cheaper. Sold only in 8 lb jugs.

hAkron
October 1, 2012, 07:43 AM
Does promo burn clean? My first experience with shot shell reloading was with RedDot. I bought a pound of it and when I was close to the end of that first lb. I had no reason to doubt it, so I picked up an 8 lb jug. After that I started to notice that it burns dirty in my CZ912 and there is usually a collection of unburned powder inside of the receiver and in the trigger group. The 7/8oz loads I shot yesterday using red dot seemed to be cleaner and less smokey than normal, but I only loaded up 50 to test, so I can't say for sure.

oneounceload
October 1, 2012, 10:17 AM
Unburned powder is typically from a bad crimp not generating enough pressure to make the complete burn. When going to these light loads, a good crimp is essential for complete ignition and getting the right pressure

If you were using the CB wads designed for AA hulls in the Fed hulls, that would also be the issue

rodinal220
October 1, 2012, 05:41 PM
Many folks only look at the dollar and cents aspect to reloading.When trying to beat promo load ammo from wally world its tough to beat price. However for the same you are paying at wally world you can make a shell the same as Remington STS or Winchester AA. The goal is to make better ammo for less moola.
Many folks never pattern their shotguns or shoot that much,if you only fire a couple hundred round a year,promo ammo is they way to go. If you fire thousands of rounds reloading is the way to go(for us mortals).

The 7/8 loads are getting a lot more attention due to the high cost of shot.

rsrocket1
October 1, 2012, 07:49 PM
I've been working down loads also and find that 3/4 oz reclaimed shot works very well on the skeet and 16 yd trap fields. My current load is 18g Clays CB4100 wads, Rem Gun Club Hulls with a Fed 209A or Rio600G primer. 1300 fps and very consistent with a 0.70" crimp depth. The extra depth raises the pressure closer to my desired range of about 9kpsi. With a normal 0.055" depth, the pressures are lower and the velocities are more variable.

I bought an 8 pound jug of Clays because I also wanted to use it for low velocity light recoiling pistol loads and found it to be excellent. Unlike Red Dot, Clays burns completely and cleanly even with slightly smokey, under-pressured "bloopers". I also bought about 4k of the CB-4100 wads during a local "wad shortage", so I'll stick with this set up for the time being.

With this setup, I've got the cost down to about $3.50/box. The biggest savings is getting reclaimed shot at $22/bag. If I paid the normal retail of nearly $40/bag+tax, there would be no savings.

Things I've concluded while working with light loads:

Light loads will produce very low pressures, so you want to get the pressures up as much as possible to make for consistent burns and consistent veolcities.

Use the hottest primers possible. Fed 209A, Rio G600, CCI 209 Magnum, I would not go cooler than a Winchester 209.

Make sure you get a really good crimp to ensure the most pressure build up possible.

Use a tapered hull like Winchester or Remington. The straight Federal hulls (and Estate and Top Gun) are cavernous and need so much powder to get a good pressure that what you save in lead, you waste in powder. They are great for big heavy loads, but not for light ones.

Use the fastest powder possible. Clays and Red Dot are good, Extra Lite is supposed to be even faster.

You might have cycling problems with recoil operated guns. Double barrel, and pump guns are fine, gas guns (like my 1100) want to see generated gas more than recoil so as long as you use enough powder to work the action, you are OK. All of my low weight loads cycle the 1100 and I don't clean more than once in about 500 shots (maybe less).

Stay away from Winchester Super-X or Universal hulls. They are really thin walled, and will not hold a deep crimp for more than a few hours. Within a day or so, many will look like a tent and start spilling shot.

gpb
October 1, 2012, 08:38 PM
Question to rsrocket1

In post #10 you state:
"1300 fps and very consistent with a 0.70" crimp depth. The extra depth raises the pressure closer to my desired range of about 9kpsi"

How did you determine the pressure? Did you send loaded shells out for testing or do you have your own testing equipment?

bumpo628
October 1, 2012, 10:41 PM
Does promo burn clean? My first experience with shot shell reloading was with RedDot. I bought a pound of it and when I was close to the end of that first lb. I had no reason to doubt it, so I picked up an 8 lb jug. After that I started to notice that it burns dirty in my CZ912 and there is usually a collection of unburned powder inside of the receiver and in the trigger group. The 7/8oz loads I shot yesterday using red dot seemed to be cleaner and less smokey than normal, but I only loaded up 50 to test, so I can't say for sure.


Red dot and Promo powder are almost exactly the same. According to Alliant, the only difference is the grain size.

"Promo has the same burn speed as Red Dot, but is more dense, thus requiring a smaller bushing to obtain the same charge weight."
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx

gab909
October 5, 2012, 11:58 AM
Grain size may be different, but that is not the only difference. The main difference is that the two powders although having the same burn rate, meter differently. Promo is much denser than Red Dot and has no distinguishing markings in it. Such as the red flakes in Red Dot. Promo usually drops about two bushing heavier than Red Dot. Get a scale and make sure of the drops. Even though you are only loading 3/4 oz, bad things can still happen. Run the shells hot to get a good burn.

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