[threefortyduster]

As some may know, I recently got a modern muzzle loader. Little did I know how incredibly expensive bullets are for them, but I like their accuracy.

That brings me to my question...what type of accuracy can I expect from a round ball projectile as opposed to the sabot bullets I've been shooting? My shooting ranges are usually less than 75 yards.

Traditions sells their own brand of .490" lead balls, but I was also wondering if any other sizes might work in a Tracker 209.

Does anyone hunt with the lead balls too, or just target shoot with them?

[roundball]

Patched round balls are all I deer hunt with and and they're extremely accurate. But they're out of Flintlocks with proper 'round ball twists' for the caliber, and I haven't personally tried them out of a fast twist inline.

While the ROT in an inline is probably faster than it needs to be, I'd be willing to bet you'd at least get very good 'minute of deer' accuracy out of them, certainly to the 75yds you mentioned. I say that because it seems it would be hard to "over-stabilize" a spinning round sphere.

My suggestion would be to get some .490's, some .018" precut/prelubed pillow ticking patches (IE: T/C, Traditions, Oxyoke), a short starter and see.

[Cosmoline]

Well twist rate has a lot to do with it. Some ML's, esp. the modern ones, have a fast twist rate for more modern-type conical slugs. The traditional ones usually have a much slower twist for roundball. Still others split the baby.

I suspect your Tracker is 1:28, which is going to be tough on a roundball but not impossible. Might be worth a try esp if you're looking for a 25 yard plinker load where the accuracy isn't a big issue. I've had reasonable luck with roundballs even out of modern 1:12 barrels, at least when used as plinkers.

Not sure about longer range. I suspect weird things might happen out there.

[threefortyduster]

I suspect your Tracker is 1:28

You'd be correct. It has a 24" barrel with 1:28" twist.

[TNBilly]

I don't shoot it much any more but my old Knight has a 1/28 and I can usually count on 2-3 inches at 50 yards.

[mykeal]

You can't 'over-stabilize' a round ball. But you can 'over-speed' them, resulting in lack of stabilization. The flight path tends to be helical, which is not good for accuracy. The key to shooting a patched round ball from a fast twist barrel is to keep the charge low, thus the velocity low; the resulting spin rate (in radians/second) will be closer to the natural frequency of the rotating system for a round ball of given rotational inertia. There will be a load that will produce a good accuracy for the patched round ball in your rifle; the question will be whether the load and resulting energy will be sufficient to ensure a clean kill for the distance and game you hunt. One thing's for sure: it will be significantly less than the optimum load for a conical or sabot round in your gun.

[Cosmoline]

That explains a lot mykeal.

[Hanshi]

Patched round ball can deliver astonishing accuracy in the correct barrel. And beyond a certain point velocity is immaterial. Lead ball expands at low speeds so a modest bp charge in an inline should give, as roundball said, minute of deer accuracy.

[Noz]

I spent several weekends with a 1/48 muzzleloader and patched round balls trying to find a hunting load. I tried 5 or 6 types of patching. Several types of lube. FFFG and FFG powder from 4 different makers and loads from 50 to 100+ gr. No joy. I couldn't keep it on an 8.5x11 sheet at 50 yards.
Picked up a box of Thompson Maxi Hunters and shot cloverleafs at 75 yards. I used everything from 50 grs to 100 gr loads with the maxi balls and the increased powder charge simple raided the POI. 85 grs gave me POI=POA

[ColtPythonElite]

I have a 1/48 twist T/C. With open sights and a good rest I can hit a paper plate every time at 100 yards....I guess that is sub 8" groups.

[Loyalist Dave]

Noz,

You weren't shooting a White Mountain Carbine where you? I ask, as during the production years for that rifle TC produced some WMC's with a 1:28 twist rate, but most folks don't know this and think they are all 1:48..., and if this is what you were using it would explain why you couldn't keep the PRB's on the paper.

LD

[TarDevil]

I have a 1/48 twist T/C. With open sights and a good rest I can hit a paper plate every time at 100 yards....I guess that is sub 8" groups.
What were your loads?

[xXxplosive]

Patch round ball held the accuracy record for years....even over modern center fire ammo.....but no longer.....that being said, you'd be amazed at the standing off-hand 200 yrd. shoots i've attended at deer sized targets with amazing accuracy in the hands of an experienced flintlock shooter....all my hunting for the last 20+ yrs is done with smooth bore or rifle.....flintlock ignition.

[sixgunner455]

I have a T/C Hawken, which should be 1:48. It doesn't shoot heavy PRB loads ... they go everywhere. Sabots shoot right on. Full caliber conicals shoot better than heavy PRB loads. Light (50gr FFg or FFFg, doesn't seem to care) PRB loads shoot pretty well, but still don't touch saboted .430 or .454 bullets.

It's all fun. Even not getting a really good group is fun.

If you will buy bulk bags of the sabots you like, and boxes of the pistol or muzzleloader-specific bullets you like, you can save money over buying the pre-packaged bullet and sabot packs. That said, T/C used to make a pre-packaged 50ct .430 lead hollow point and sabot pack that was much less expensive than the jacketed bullets. I haven't seen them around recently, but if a guy would buy .430 lead pistol bullets, and packs of sabots, he could still save some money. For deer, they would probably be effective loads, but more importantly, he'd have affordable practice loads.

[Bushpilot]

Hunting with a patched round ball is not a problem. Patched round ball can very accurate, just as accurate as conicals, sabots and more accurate, at least in my experience than minie balls. The problem you are going to have is that the rate of twist in your rifle is too fast for patched RB accuracy at hunting velocities. As others have said, the trick is matching the projectile to the rate of twist to the velocity. RB require very little rate of twist to stabilize RB compared to the longer, conicals, minies and sabots. Too high a rate of twist or too high of velocity and the patched round ball will "strip" and accuracy will be poor. Accuracy with a .50, 1:28 twist and a patched RB will likely be poor with anything other than a very light powder charge. Typical 50 cal RB barrels will have a 1:66 or 1:70 twist or less.

[threefortyduster]

Great info guys...and I never though I'd hear that 1:28 is FAST!

Basically I need to buy a box of them and buy some powder to test it with, and see what works.

[ColtPythonElite]

What were your loads?
Hornady ball, T/C prelubed patch, and 80 gr. of Pyrodex....FWIW, the gun is a Thompson Grey Hawk.

[Jim, West PA]

I have no clue what a "modern muzzel loader " is.
I have a T/C stone sparked Hawken in .45 that with a patched Hornady .440 rb over a thrown charge of 80gr. of fffg that i can hit bowlin pins with at 80+ yards from a sittin position.
I've got another stone sparked T/C Hawken in .50 that will hold a 3" group off a rest at 100 yards with a LEE cast ball under a 90gr thrown charge of fffg.
I wouldn't hesitate fer a second to take a hunnert yard shot at a white tail with either rifle.

Both rifles have the rb's wrapped in a T/C lubed, self cut .015/.016 tickin' patch.

[dagger dog]

I bought a CVA percussion Kentucky rifle kit 45 cal. 36" bbl. back in 1978 when I still had good eysight, I always have worn glasses since the age of 7.

Cast my own .440" round balls from stick on wheel weights, used pillow ticking cloth patches that were lubricated with Crisco and right at 0.005" used 80 grs FFg.

Using a padded saw horse for a rest and the semi v rear and brass blade front sight was able to shoot a perfect 3 hole clover leaf @ 100 yrds first time out.

They can be very accurate !

[Busyhands94]

Threefortyduster, the ammo for inline muzzleloaders is indeed real expensive stuff. I suggest getting a Lee Minnie ball mold. I have one, it casts a pretty sweet torpedo! It's the modern target design (I think Lee came up with it) and the results downrange are spectacular.

That being said, I still shoot nothing but patched ball from mine. It's more traditional, and I like the way 75 grains and a ball performs on targets.

[ColtPythonElite]

Inline ammo doesn't have to be expensive...Just buy bulk sabots at about 8 bucks per 100 and use the pistol bullet of your choice.

[Pete D.]

This pic is my favorite response to questions about round ball accuracy:
.50 cal. RB, .490" dia., 0.010" patch, 90 grs. FFg Goex, flintlock, iron sights, 1-66" twist, 100 yards benched.
Pete
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/GPR3shotat100.jpg

[Curator]

Threefourtyduster,

I have a CVA "Wolf" with the 1-28 twist barrel in which I shoot .495 round balls with excellent accuracy as long as I keep powder charges on the light side. A few things I have found that help: Tight patch and ball combination allows for higher velocity. I am using a .495 round ball and .018 pillow ticking patch. This requires a sharp rap on the short starter to get it into the muzzle. I also use either a "spit-patch" or no lube whatever on the patch. I use FFg rather than FFFg to get higher velocities with no loss in accuracy. Velocities in the 1500fps range are possible with good accuracy using these techniques. Smaller balls or thinner patches can't be driven near this fast. Of course, my preferred projectile is the Lee R.E.A.L 50/320 bullet cast from pure lead. Sabots are for people who can't make their own bullets.

[Plastikosmd]

Agree, very accurate! 4 different guns
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/9017db65.jpg
Bench rifle, open sights, 100y, 5 shot

Bench Rifle 20 shot with sighter under patch, open sight, 100y
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/th_ed10826c.jpg

5 more, open sights at 100
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/th_8fc2f3e3.jpg

2 final ones , sighters under patches, 2 five shot groups, dialing it to center
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/th_9fd2dfe7.jpg

[ColtPythonElite]

That some impressive open sighted 100 yd grouping.

[threefortyduster]

Sabots are for people who can't make their own bullets.
At this point, I can't. That mold is intriguing though. I have a friend that works in a tires plus, so I can get all the old weights I want.

That minie mold for 348 gr conical bullet looks pretty cool though. I may go that route.

[ColtPythonElite]

I'd guess I am intelligent enough to successfully learn to make my own bullets, but have no desire to, especially for a gun I only shoot a few times a year.

[threefortyduster]

Inline ammo doesn't have to be expensive...Just buy bulk sabots at about 8 bucks per 100 and use the pistol bullet of your choice.
Awesome idea...thanks! After a minute of research, that seems just as good as casting. Maybe I'll do both :)

[Busyhands94]

It all depends what your rifle likes best, sabots or full bore torpedoes. Of course the cool thing about sabots (at least to me it seems) is that you could get some REALLY nasty jacketed bullets. Defensive JHP's or dead soft lead HP's would cut a pretty impressive wound channel on game, you could also cast some bullets with antimony for greater penetration, or you could just use FMJ's.

Then again 360 grains of dead soft lead at 1500 FPS is going to expand the second it hits game, that would be pretty effective whether it's in a sabot or a full bore bullet.

[Plastikosmd]

thx colt. While they are 'iron' sights, they are aperature type sights that may lend themself to better accuracy. Nevertheless it is fun to outshoot or keep up with the scoped centerfires.

[CraigC]

Sabots are for people who can't make their own bullets.
I buy all my projectiles as a matter of choice. I choose to spend my time doing things other than casting bullets.


Typical group, three shots at 70yds with a .535" Speer.
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/rifles/large/9P1010036_1.JPG

[Plastikosmd]

well it was a beautiful sat. morning, nobody at the range. One of the prior groups posted was of this 62 caliber rifle and I had been searching for the best charge. I went from 100g up to about 260g or so then back down. It seems like 145 is the ticket, 5 shot under 1" at 100 redfield sights, 3 of .626 dia balls for size on the paper to compare for the 5 shot group.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/af7c92d00c5fc01dbd1b28557db657c4.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/1f38bf23622a276ff13f45981d999ad7.jpg