.243 Dies ?


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45Frank
October 2, 2012, 01:28 PM
Good day to all;
Ok I am looking to buy dies for my daughter's .243 in order to lesson the recoil. I found some good loads here and on the web.
My question is Lee makes two different die set one is the Pacesetter with the factory crimp the Lee Precision Deluxe set doesn't have the crimp die but has the collet die. This is bolt action so I shouldn't need the crimp die correct? So would I be OK with the collet instead of the crimp?
Also are the rifle dies titanium like the pistol dies and would I need lube if not?
Thank

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wardor
October 2, 2012, 01:30 PM
You'll need lube for resizing purposes. Even the carbide rifle dies require lube.

Arkansas Paul
October 2, 2012, 01:35 PM
This is bolt action so I shouldn't need the crimp die correct?

Correct. The 2-piece die set is all you need.
FYI, a good, low recoil load for .243 - 85 gr Sierra Gameking BTHP and 31 grains of H4895.

I loaded some for my wife's Ruger 77 and it is very accurate and soft shooting. We're trying it out on deer this season.

helotaxi
October 2, 2012, 08:37 PM
I would recommend the Lee 2-die set that comes with the collet neck die and dead length seater die. The seater is OK, the collet neck die is great.

45Frank
October 3, 2012, 10:31 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I ordered the Lee last night.
Thank all, I always willing to listen to those ho have done rather then those who think about doing.:)

interlock
October 3, 2012, 11:15 AM
hi 45 frank,
is this for target or hunting use? i have lots of experience loading 243.

45Frank
October 3, 2012, 11:52 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good morning interlock
Hunting, the .243 is for my daughter who is 15 and small. Maybe 4'9" 110 pounds. Small all around, short arms, legs and such. LOL
I got her a model 700 youth. She seem to be comfortable with the size and weight and all but still complains a little about the kick.
I have been reloading handgun loads for 25+ years but not to much rifle. I have RCBS, Lee, Hornady and a few others but for some reason I come back to the Lee. Now maybe I will find it different with the rifle loads?

kingmt
October 4, 2012, 10:49 AM
Titanium is way to soft for reloading dies.

The deluxe kit is perfect for bolt rifles.

I also like Blue Dot & 65gn bullets for deer.

Arkansas Paul
October 4, 2012, 12:09 PM
Be sure and go to Hodgdon's website and click on the "H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads" link under the "Data" tab.

interlock
October 4, 2012, 01:19 PM
the 700 yoouth has a pretty short barrel if i recall, try a quite fast burning powder and a 85-90 gr bullet. if she holds it right its all good.

popper
October 4, 2012, 05:24 PM
H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads Definitely. Skip the Lee stuff. Get a good FL die set and adjust it right.

stubbicatt
October 5, 2012, 08:37 AM
The Lee Full Length Sizer and their standard seating die are really quite good. Not a huge fan of the Collet die however. You may wish to buy some Hornady lock rings.

kingmt
October 5, 2012, 08:49 AM
The Lee dies are my favorite. I really Lee the lock rings. I use the FL for all new to me brass then everything goes through the NS die after that.

popper
October 5, 2012, 03:01 PM
Does the full length sizer crimp? I got the 3 die collet set and the FL doesn't. 45frank - she probably won't put more than 1K through it in her lifetime so case life isn't really a biggie- FL size.

kingmt
October 5, 2012, 09:02 PM
How would you crimp with a FL sizing die? There its no reason to crimp anyway.

45Frank
October 5, 2012, 10:52 PM
OK I am pretty much set up to reload the 243. A few questions since I can already see some difference in rifles as compare to handguns.
First off finding the bullets locally that some have mentioned for light loads just isn't happening. So I picked up some Speer .85 grain spitzer, the only thing the local gun shop had under 100g.
First in many of the manuals it does list a .85 grain bullet, Does that mean any .85 grain bullet? Of course I know the difference between boat tail, round nose, hollow tip and such, I mean do I have to find the bullet by name?
Second I set things up and set the seating die with an empty cartridge just to get the length set right. The manuals I have one being a speer says the Max.COL of 2.650 for a 85 grain bullet yet the factory loads I have are 2.660. What should I use for the COL? Until I am familiar enough to find out what it should be for this particular gun (Rem. Mod. 700 Youth).
I also am using H4895 but all the reduced loads I found for this powder were for 80grain bullets not 85.
Suggest away.

helotaxi
October 6, 2012, 09:17 AM
As far as finding load data, as long as the bullet is the same basic construction and design, the published data will get you a starting point. Since you should always develop your loads for your rifle anyway, that's all you really need.

Actual max length is 2.710" (at least according to SAAMI). The 2.650" in the Speer manual is just the length that they tested at, and is really not that vital to anything. Your only real concern would be jamming a blunt ogive bullet into the rifling and running the pressure up.

As far as reduced loads go, you're not worried about hitting a pressure limit with H4895 in a reduced load. You can start in the middle of the 80gn load data and work up until you find an accurate load.

jjjitters
October 6, 2012, 09:31 AM
To find the max oal for your rifle, without buying a special tool, I have taken a fired case and run it up into the sizing die just far enough to start sizing the neck.I get it so the bullet I'm going to use will slip in the case mouth but have enough resistance to hold it so I can chamber the "dummy" round in the gun. The bullet will push into the case as it hits the rifling, then carefully eject the round, taking care to not let the round hit anything or fly out. You can now measure the oal, that is the max oal that will fit into your chamber. You can then check to make sure it fits in the magazine. I wouls seat the bullet .01-.015" deeper(shorter oal) so it has a little "jump" to engage the rifling.

788remington
October 6, 2012, 09:44 AM
i found that a 3mm jump in my .243 works best for getting a very tight group, and by tight group i mean cutting the same hole at 200 yards i used the same method as jjjitters mentioned

Arkansas Paul
October 6, 2012, 10:01 AM
I also am using H4895 but all the reduced loads I found for this powder were for 80grain bullets not 85.
Suggest away.

I too went with the 85 grain bullet and couldn't find anything on the Hodgdon site about them. I guesstimated, which usually isn't a great idea, but with H4895 you can get away with it if you're smart.
I used a starting load of 30 grains and a Federal Match primer. It was VERY accurate but the primers were backing out a little. That's a sign of low pressure, so I upped the charge to 31 grains and switched to a magnum primer. Viola....no more issues and still very accurate.

jduff8505
October 6, 2012, 10:36 AM
FWIW I love my Lee stuff. I have thought about trying some of the other brands, but so far have not been able to justify fixing what isn't broke.

Jeff

jim243
October 6, 2012, 10:42 AM
First in many of the manuals it does list a .85 grain bullet, Does that mean any .85 grain bullet? Of course I know the difference between boat tail, round nose, hollow tip and such, I mean do I have to find the bullet by name?

No, not by name. By weight and length. Some mfgs use different bonding materials and methods of bonding the copper to the lead, so in some cases it is a trial and error method to get everything right. Start at min load and work your way up.

Second I set things up and set the seating die with an empty cartridge just to get the length set right. The manuals I have one being a speer says the Max.COL of 2.650 for a 85 grain bullet yet the factory loads I have are 2.660. What should I use for the COL? Until I am familiar enough to find out what it should be for this particular gun (Rem. Mod. 700 Youth).

For all my bolt action rifles, I use the Hornady L-N-L OAL gauge and modified case. With this gauge i find the MAX OAL for the bullet I will be using and back off that by 0.050 inches. That gives more than sufficient jump to lands and keeps the round from being jammed into the lands and increasing pressure to a dangerous level. This is going to depend on the condition of your rifle's throat and chamber. The best advice is "when in doubt, use the book's OAL".

I also am using H4895 but all the reduced loads I found for this powder were for 80 grain bullets not 85. Suggest away

I too use H-4895 for the 85 grain Nosler partion with XXX grains of powder set to an OAL of 2.647, BUT that is for my rifle, yours may be different, use caution. Another decent powder for 243 is IMR 4350, but I prefer the H-4895. Start at the Min and work your load up.

Jim


As to dies, I use the Lee Pacesetter set, the Deluxe set has the collet die and is used if you neck size only and not full lenght size your cases.

popper
October 6, 2012, 12:13 PM
45frank. I did this for 2 GK's weatherby 243s. Fired case only, begin FL sizing until bolt closes easily. This sets head space. Lock the die down, this is why I use Hornady rings - they stay put! Load a bullet to approx COL, check for bolt closure and rifling marks on the slug. When you don't get marks and the bolt closes easily, seat ~ .02 deeper, lock the die. Those pointy slugs are hard to measure COL. If the bullets have a crimp groove, use as a starting point. If you don't have a crimp die and need one (not often, but some bullets are flat base and I used a slight flare for loading and needed to crimp to remove the flare), you then have to buy one. H4895 works at everything up to max loads for a weight bullet, no 85 gr data? Start @ 90 gr youth and work up to max regular loads. I didn't like the Lee collet sizer cause it doesn't garantee neck tension. I got tired of cleaning the mag of powder and pushing pulled slugs from the bore!

45Frank
October 6, 2012, 04:30 PM
OK checked the OAL by putting the bullet loosely in a cartridge and also with black marker. Seems as though after about a dozen different tries it hits the lands at 2.710 so I will start out with an OAL of 2.680 and see how things go. Let ya know as soon as I'm done and shoot some.
We did shoot some 100 grain factory loads just so my daughter could get used to it and I think I was worried about a whole lot of nothing. It's loud she moves backwards but she never complained about kick. This rifle had a soft 1.5" - 2" pad that does very well, I was surprised.

helotaxi
October 6, 2012, 08:56 PM
I thought that she was complaining about recoil to prompt all this. If she's comfortable with full power 100gn loads, by all means go te full power route. The 85gn bullets that you have for reloading will recoil even less than the 100gn when loaded to full power so you should be good to go.

45Frank
October 6, 2012, 11:32 PM
I thought that she was complaining about recoil to prompt all this. If she's comfortable with full power 100gn loads, by all means go te full power route. The 85gn bullets that you have for reloading will recoil even less than the 100gn when loaded to full power so you should be good to go.
She was several days back, I think she may have still been hurting from the 30-30 she shot(No Padding) and my 22-250(nearly no padding)she shot kicks more then the .243. I think it's all in the pad, it's thick and soft.

kingmt
October 9, 2012, 03:54 PM
The 85gn bullets that you have for reloading will recoil even less than the 100gn when loaded to full power so you should be good to go.
This isn't true. It can be loaded to recoil less but for the most part it is backwards. With two bullets of different length(same design) using the same powder & loaded to the same pressure the shorter one will have more recoil.

helotaxi
October 9, 2012, 10:22 PM
Based on what? Loaded to the same muzzle energy, the lighter bullet will have slightly less recoil. Run the numbers through a recoil calculator.

Shooting my .243s extensively, it is easy to tell the difference between a 55gn Ballistic Tip and a 95gn Ballistic Tip just by recoil, and my 55gn load is over 4k fps.

jjjitters
October 9, 2012, 10:51 PM
Personally ,unless you shoot constantly and a hundred rounds at a time,if the loads are charged even remotely similar other than bullet weight, to "feel" the difference in recoil is doubtful. I shot .243(700 shots in 2 days) and 22-250(another 500 shots) on prarie dogs towns years back with several different bullets and any felt recoil difference just isn't outstanding. I could tell by point of impact at 500-700yrds though. Pistols is more discernable if a person is physically making a point to watch for it, but rifle(especially the bull-barrels) is pretty neutured.

dcktp37
October 9, 2012, 11:11 PM
Not sure why I haven't read this here but from my understanding certain light loads can also have extremely high pressures so the need to be careful is still there even when working with light loads. And assuming that 700 has the same 1:9 1/8 twist and same action as my SPS-V and depending on the range and animal you're shooting you may want to look at a 75gr bullet. I also had issues with higher pressure rounds due to uneven locking lugs. So that's something to look t if you have issues there.


Sent from my fruit-phone 5

hentown
October 10, 2012, 08:00 AM
Does the full length sizer crimp? I got the 3 die collet set and the FL doesn't. 45frank - she probably won't put more than 1K through it in her lifetime so case life isn't really a biggie- FL size.

How in the hell could a sizing die crimp? Ya gonna crimp with no bullet and powder? IF I didn't know any more than that, I wouldn't be giving advice about what brand dies to use!!! :evil:

kingmt
October 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
Based on what? Loaded to the same muzzle energy, the lighter bullet will have slightly less recoil. Run the numbers through a recoil calculator.

Shooting my .243s extensively, it is easy to tell the difference between a 55gn Ballistic Tip and a 95gn Ballistic Tip just by recoil, and my 55gn load is over 4k fps.
Yes. If you down load it to the same fps then it should have less recoil. If your using the same powder in both cases loaded at the same pressure then the shorter(lighter) bullet will have more recoil. The longer bullet stays in the barrel longer the drops more before the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil is from the high pressure gases leaving the barrel not the bullet. The bullet is just the plug holding them in.

If you want to reduce recoil them control it by powder burn rate. Then match bullet size to the speed CD twist rate of the barrel.

helotaxi
October 10, 2012, 09:02 PM
Yes. If you down load it to the same fps then it should have less recoil. If your using the same powder in both cases loaded at the same pressure then the shorter(lighter) bullet will have more recoil. The longer bullet stays in the barrel longer the drops more before the bullet leaves the barrel. Recoil is from the high pressure gases leaving the barrel not the bullet. The bullet is just the plug holding them in.

If you want to reduce recoil them control it by powder burn rate. Then match bullet size to the speed CD twist rate of the barrel.
Where did this drivel come from and why do people insist on repeating it? If it were true, the .17 Remington would be a real bruiser and the .45-70 a complete pussycat.

There is a component of "rocket power" to the recoil of a rifle but it isn't the major component. Basic Newtonian physics tell you that accelerating a bullet, regardless of method has an equal and opposite action from the rifle. The mass of the ejecta determines the muzzle blast component of recoil and is therefore directly related to the weight of the powder charge. The recoil from the acceleration of the bullet is also directly proportional to the weight of the bullet. Run a recoil calculator varying the charge weight and notice how little the recoil of a .308 class cartridge varies with charge weight. Then vary the bullet weight. Notice that no recoil calculator asks what the length of the bullet is (because bullet length doesn't matter in the slightest, even in your attempt at describing what it means above) or the pressure of the cartridge because none of that matters. All that matters is the acceleration of the bullet and the combustion products of the powder from rest to whatever the muzzle velocity and ejecta velocity happen to be.

The other flaw in your logic is assuming that the same powder is going to be optimal with bullets of different weights. Depending on the cartridge and the bullets in question, it might well be impossible to load two different weight (weight, not length is what matters here) bullets to the same pressure. The lighter bullet would be incapable of maintaining pressure well enough to reach peak pressure with the slower burning powder required for the heavier bullet. Likewise the heavy bullet would only permit a very light charge of the powder suitable for the light bullet without vastly exceeding peak pressure. The significantly lighter charge would be unable to produce enough gas volume to maintain any kind of pressure and velocity would be greatly reduced. As a result to load to similar pressure curves you use powders suitable for the particular bullets being used. What you're describing with the pressure dropping on the heavier bullet is the definition of a reduced load. The heavy bullet can be loaded hotter with a slower powder.

In my .243 I typically use relatively fast powders for the 55gn bullets (3031, Varget, etc.) and really slow powders for the 105gn pills (Win780, H4831 etc.). The pressure curves with the two bullets are very close and they are about the same pressure relative to bullet position in the bore. The heavy bullet has noticeably higher recoil. That's simple physics. I'm accelerating a heavier object at only a slightly slower rate. The MV difference is about 1k fps but the muzzle energy is really close to the same. Running both loads through a ballistics calculator shows that the 105gn load has nearly 50% more recoil.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp Play around and see what actually matters. Educate yourself rather than passing on some myth that fails the test of basic logic and argues against basic physics.

kingmt
October 11, 2012, 02:05 PM
You said a lot to say nothing. As you said before you used a slower powder for the heave bullet. With slower powder(keep in reason not 50bmg) the pressure will be building over a longer period so the pressure will be higher when the bullet gets to the end of the barrel. If you want to apply Newton's law to the bullet it is pulling the barrel forward because of friction not kicking off the end of the barrel. Again don't take my word for it use a cleaning rod to pull a patch from the chamber to the muzzle & see which way the gun moves.

It is the burn rate of the powder. A longer bullet is usually heavier & will cause the same powder at the same charge tip burn more complete. There for the shorter/lighter bullet allows more recoil.

I have worked with controlling recoil, bullet velocity, explanation, & stability for a while. You can't get my loads from a manual. There is some math involved that gets tested of course.

popper
October 11, 2012, 04:15 PM
hentown - correct, I meant to say the Lee 3 die set has NO crimp die. I you work at it, the NS die will crimp. Sometimes my brain and fingers don't work.

helotaxi
October 11, 2012, 07:03 PM
You said a lot to say nothing. As you said before you used a slower powder for the heave bullet. With slower powder(keep in reason not 50bmg) the pressure will be building over a longer period so the pressure will be higher when the bullet gets to the end of the barrel. If you want to apply Newton's law to the bullet it is pulling the barrel forward because of friction not kicking off the end of the barrel. Wrong. Again don't take my word for it use a cleaning rod to pull a patch from the chamber to the muzzle & see which way the gun moves.Wrong. By pulling a patch through the barrel, you're applying an outside force to the rifle. Not even talking about the same thing.

It is the burn rate of the powder. A longer bullet is usually heavier & will cause the same powder at the same charge tip burn more complete. There for the shorter/lighter bullet allows more recoil.What? That makes no sense. Probably because it has no facts, science, reason, etc backing it up.

I have worked with controlling recoil, bullet velocity, explanation, & stability for a while. You can't get my loads from a manual. There is some math involved that gets tested of course.
Well that clearly makes you the expert doesn't it?

You really just don't get it do you? If you think that you know more than all the ballisticians that do this stuff for a living, I'm done wasting my time.

jjjitters
October 11, 2012, 07:18 PM
I have a question for either, not agreeing/disagreeing with anything, just a question.
When using certain powders, like N320, N340,N350,Silhuette(more noticable), how is the felt recoil conciderably less than other powders of comparable burn rates ,like Power Pistol,HS6,Longshot (few other I can't think of right now) even when loaded to the same general velocity/pressures and with the same bullet?

helotaxi
October 11, 2012, 09:56 PM
Different powders, even those right next to each other on the burn rate chart, will exhibit different actual burn rates under actual use. Because of that the pressure curve looks different while the bullet is in the barrel. The pressure curve determines the bullet rate of acceleration and the rate of acceleration goes both ways. If the pressure comes up quicker, the recoil comes on quicker and feels sharper. The total recoil energy is going to be almost exactly the same if the bullet is the same weight, the powder charge is almost the same weight and the muzzle velocity is the same.

With a handgun, the charge weight is very small compared to the bullet weight and the recoil from the powder clearing the muzzle is a very tiny part of the recoil. The recoil comes from accelerating the bullet.

Some things to think about: If a lighter bullet made for more recoil, a .243 should recoil more than a .308. The pressures are the same; the charge weights the same; only the bullet weights are different.

If the friction of the bullet moving down the bore was equal to the force pushing it out, it wouldn't move and would get stuck in the bore.

The expanding gases from the powder charge burning push with the same force on the rifle as they do on the bullet. As soon as the bullet begins to move, it is independent of the rifle for the purposes of determining action and reaction.

A projectile pushed from a "gun" purely by spring power exhibits recoil despite the complete lack of high pressure gases.

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