meat loss? Help Please!


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tahoe2
October 2, 2012, 09:13 PM
what caliber & bullet do you use to avoid "meat loss". I butchered my deer yesterday, and lost one complete shoulder (off side), and half from the entry shoulder, shooting a 8mm mauser @ 120 yards with a 180 Nosler Ballistic tip @ 2600fps, the bullet went in through the front leg between the elbow & shoulder, cut the arteries off the heart and punched the lungs, then exited the off shoulder, completely destroying it. The whole shoulder was bloodshot & mutilated. Exit wound was about 4-1/2". please help! change bullet? drop speed? Change caliber? Should I go with my 30-30 or .300 Savage and leave the mauser for Elk?
What to do?

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solvability
October 2, 2012, 09:14 PM
Bigger caliber at slower velocity. 44 Mag or hard cast 45-70 at a mild velocity.

Art Eatman
October 2, 2012, 09:28 PM
I allus figgered, "Don't shoot 'em in the eatin' part." :D

Main thing is, I've never shot AT a deer. I always shoot at a specific spot ON a deer. Neck or cross-body heart shots are my preference.`

I'll take an angling shot if the buck is somewhere above average, but I'm willing to do a "maybe" on ruining a shoulder. But even there, ruination is not a given if I'm careful with the shot.

R.W.Dale
October 2, 2012, 09:46 PM
Ballistic tips shine at longer ranges or at lower impact velocities where other bullets can be expansion challenged.

Closer in at high impact speeds they're just one step tougher than varmint bullets.

Try a tougher projectile more noted for controlled expansion.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

MCgunner
October 2, 2012, 09:47 PM
.308 with a 150 Nosler BT works for me. 7 rem mag at 50 yards with a 150 game king, not so much unless, like Art says, you avoid shootin' 'em in the eatin' part. :D My Roberts works well ( 100 grain .25 caliber at 3150 fps) so it don't have to be a big/slow bullet. Just avoid big/fast bullets. :D

Big/slow works, though. With a .50 caliber 385 grain Minie at 1300 fps, you can eat right up to the hole. Of course, it's a big hole.:D

DM~
October 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
Of course the right answer is the "stop shooting them where you eat"... A shot in the ribs will cure most of your problem, and useing a tougher bullet will cure the rest, if you insist on shoulder shots.

Here's a nice buck i shot with my 8x57 in the ribs, using 200NP's.

Entrance,

http://fototime.com/C2009AEA01B06F2/standard.jpg

Exit,

http://fototime.com/6650685142A2DE0/standard.jpg

DM

MCgunner
October 2, 2012, 10:14 PM
Of course the right answer is the "stop shooting them where you eat"... A shot in the ribs will cure most of your problem, and useing a tougher bullet will cure the rest, if you insist on shoulder shots.

Of course, if you're shooting at a PIG, as i found out the hard way first pig I ever shot, and you shoot 'em in the ribs, all you're gonna get is guts. I finally got that pig after blood trailing it for 300 yards in heavy cover. When I caught up to it, it charged me from about 25 feet, but it was pretty slowed by the blood loss by then and I got a well placed shot on his head with a .357 magnum revolver. I shook uncontrollably for 10 minutes after that, but my drawers were clean.

NOW, pigs get it in the shoulder or head. Lose a little meat? No problem, just shoot more pigs.

303tom
October 2, 2012, 10:29 PM
Core-Lokt Pointed Soft Point.....................

Pacsd
October 2, 2012, 10:32 PM
yup, I see it all the time. I process wild game and the more shot up they are the easier it is for me to chunk the jello and still get he same price. 'Specially antelope and elk. The goats hind quarters usually get it on runnin shots and elk come in looking like Bonnie & Clyde's car. Next time you gut one look and see where the ribs are behind shoulders.

tahoe2
October 2, 2012, 10:50 PM
I was actually aiming 3" back from the shoulder, guess I muffed the shot !! I should probably re-sight it in. I kinda thought that a 180grn @ 2600fps would be considered slow?
Or would a 200 grainer in 8mm @ 2400 fps be better? I also have a .375 Winchester; that launches a 220 grn flat point @ 2000 fps. Would either of these be a better choice?

Davek1977
October 3, 2012, 05:21 AM
Its not necessarily velocity that is causing your problems (though its certainly part of the equation). Rather than looking soley at different bullet weights, consider switching bullets as well. Ballistic tips, as mentioned previously, don't hold up well at short range and moderate to high velocities. Perhaps something along the lines of a Partition would serve you better

Lloyd Smale
October 3, 2012, 06:36 AM
I allus figgered, "Don't shoot 'em in the eatin' part."

thats the answer. I shot my last two crop damage deer for the season last night. Two does at a bit over 300 yards. Gun was a 300 wby using barnes 180s. Shot one behind the shoulder and didnt ruin a bit of meat. Shot the other right through both shoulders and lost them both. I doubt it would have changed a bit if i was using a 270 or 06 using any bullet made for them.

Captcurt
October 3, 2012, 09:42 AM
That is a BT. Like RW said, they shine at long range but open up too quickly at close range. I don't worry much about losing a shoulder. That hit usually results in a bangflop.

Going with a tougher bullet will help. Nosler Partition, Speer Grand Slamnor some of the all copper bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler E-Tip etc will do less damage.

jrdolall
October 3, 2012, 10:02 AM
I am sure there are different bullets and/or calibers that will cause less damage but pretty much any bullet that is acceptable for deer is going to tear up the meat. Faster bullets, bigger bullets will tear up and shock the surrounding tissue. Ideally we want a standing broadside shot where the bullet can be placed behind the shoulder and just tear up the ribs but that is not always possible. Losing a shoulder is a small price to pay, IMO, if you get a clean quick kill.

Two years ago I took a doe on the last day of the season as a part of our unofficial management program. She was trotting through the pines and I made a bad decision that lead to the 30-06 165 grain bullet passing through both hindquarters. Not only did I get to watch her suffer until I could get in a follow up shot, (she dropped like a rock and tried to crawl) I was left with backstraps and shoulders which is what? 25% of the meat? Bad decision and one I hope to never duplicate.

buck460XVR
October 3, 2012, 11:24 AM
There will be meat damage wherever you hit and whatever you use. Kinda hard to kill something by destroying it's circulatory or nervous system without going thru meat to get to it. Some claim head shots, but that target is small and a near miss there means a long and painful death for the deer. Yeah again, I know most here never miss that walnut sized target @ 200 yards, but it is possible. :rolleyes: I worry more about a quick clean kill than I do about 2 lbs of sinewy hamburger from a front shoulder/leg. Shoot a deer thru the shoulders with an arrow, and you will throw away meat. If we can afford the tag, the gas to get there and the fancy smancy gun and ammo, ain't none of us gonna starve to death if we have to throw away a bloodshot shoulder.

interlock
October 3, 2012, 11:50 AM
shot placement. shoot in the pocket. if it is close shoot in the neck. but always accept that there will be some damage... there is a sticky at the top.

if you go in line with the back of the front leg one third the way up the body from broad side the bullet will do ribs on both sides... if the deer is stood square with its legs in the right position. if it has the back leg further back you will hit it. if you are close enough and you are confident in your shooting go through the gorget patch. or from the rear the atlas joint.

The ballistic tip at the moderate velocity you are shooting should not be too bad. You could try to step up the wieght and use a corlokt or hot core or interlock (little tougher) bullet.

Really its all good... your deer is in the larder. you didnt spend hours looking for it in the dark and pi**ing hard rain. the back shoulder is ruined... never mind.

interlock

RevGeo
October 3, 2012, 12:04 PM
To the OP - Better three quarters than no quarters. You might try the 8mm factory loads. They're down there around .32 Spl velocity, I think. Or since you hand load, load down to that level. Didn't you mention you have a .300 Savage? 180gr loads in that cartridge should work out.
Like just about everybody here, I think you oughta shoot them behind the shoulder. Thats what I do if I have the choice.

George

alsaqr
October 3, 2012, 03:05 PM
I butchered my deer yesterday, and lost one complete shoulder (off side), and half from the entry shoulder,

Did the same thing for years. Then i stopped shooting deer in the shoulder: Properly placed behind the shoulder shots ruin almost no meat.

adelbridge
October 3, 2012, 03:06 PM
Ballistic tips absolutely grenade animals on impact. I use them because they are a good insurance policy for poor shot placement. I have shot many critters with rebranded Winchester Ballistic Silvertips and it is always the same result, pinhole entrance and 4 pounds of goo sluicing out a 4" diameter exit wound. I shot a pig in the dark two weeks ago with 150 grain ballistic tip .308. I couldnt tell head from tail in the dark so I flipped a coin. I guessed wrong but the ballistic tip gutted a 70 lb boar and he only ran 30 yards. Any other bullet and I probably wouldnt have had a blood trail.

tahoe2
October 4, 2012, 11:13 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys! I do have some Speer 200 grn "Hot Core's" loaded up for the 8mm @ 2400 fps and they are very accurate in my rifles (M24/47, M48A, & M98k).
I should shoot those .300 Savage 180's and see how they perform in that Model 99.

youngda9
October 7, 2012, 09:29 AM
Stop shooting them in the meat?

Broadside double lung shot destroys no meat with ANY caliber and velocity.

Arkansas Paul
October 7, 2012, 11:50 AM
I don't worry much about losing a shoulder. That hit usually results in a bangflop.

I'm the same way. I don't like to track deer, so I'll sacrifice one shoulder for them to be laying right where they were when I pulled the trigger.

It doesn't matter what caliber or what bullet you use, if you shoot them through the shoulders, don't expect to eat much of the shoulders. When bullets contact bone, a mess generally occurs.

788Ham
October 8, 2012, 01:33 PM
RevGeo, You use 180 gr. bullets in a .300 Savage for deer? Man, We've used 150's for eons for deer hunting, never lost one yet. Behind the front shoulders always get them with that .300, bang-flop!

alsaqr
October 8, 2012, 08:16 PM
Most of the deer is shoot bang flop: None are shot in the shoulder. There has not been five pounds of meat lost in the last 25 deer i've killed.

1911 guy
October 9, 2012, 02:00 AM
I've got to agree. Hit them right about centerline just behind the shoulder. With anything .30-30 on up that's a dead deer. I've had exactly one deer take off on me and that was my fault. I rushed the shot and hit it too far back. I've got no problem killing an animal, but I also would like to keep it quick.

MCgunner
October 9, 2012, 11:22 AM
interlock says:

shot placement. shoot in the pocket. if it is close shoot in the neck

What, and mess up all that good chili meat!? Perhaps they don't eat chili in England? :D

Swampman
October 16, 2012, 10:38 PM
While it's nice not to spoil any eating' meat, you've got your deer, the coyotes don't. Better to lose a little than to lose it all. As others have already said, shoot 'em behind the shoulder and you won't waste much meat. If hunting near property lines of land that I don't have permission to enter, I'll bust a deer through both shoulders to ensure they stay put.
While I agree that a tougher bullet can help, I wouldn't recommend the Nosler Partition to decrease the amount of meat damage. While the Partition has great penetration due to the hard fully protected rear core, the front is made of fairly soft lead and it expands very quickly, throwing out a lot of meat destroying fragments.
The Partition is my favorite bullet and I think it's about the best hunting bullet out there, just don't expect to reduce meat damage by using it.

ChefJeff1
October 16, 2012, 11:15 PM
I butchered my deer today. I lost exactly 1 loin steak. I used a 30-30 with a 173 grain hard cast Beartooth bullet about 2000 FPS. entry and exit were about the same and the deer was DRT.

I lost a loin steak because of the steep uphill shot at about 75 yards.

My 270 can destroy a whole shoulder too.

Kachok
October 16, 2012, 11:29 PM
Just shoot an inch behind the shoulder, works like a charm, hardly even damages the ribs (yes I eat those too) if you are a high shoulder shot guy switch to a harder bullet (Barnes TSX) or a slow heavy caliber (44 magnum/45-70) either approach reduces gunshot meat, and a slow heavy hardcast allows you to eat right up to the hole but limits your range.

jmr40
October 17, 2012, 11:21 AM
If you miss, or hit em and they get away you lose all of the meat. If the bullet drops 'em dead in their tracks and you lose a little meat that seems like a better option to me.

beatledog7
October 17, 2012, 11:40 AM
Shoot the deer in the hoof with a 230gr .45ACP FMJ round. You'll find his otherwise undamaged carcass lying exactly on line with your shot but five or six yards further away than when you fired. (Remove tongue from cheek.)

Art Eatman
October 17, 2012, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I guess a deer has a cheek...

medalguy
October 19, 2012, 12:54 AM
Neck shot or head shot. Never lost enough eating meat to worry about.

Gunnerboy
October 19, 2012, 08:53 PM
Thats the reason i got a 6.5x55 for hunting blacktail, i can hit em in the shoulder and have little to no bloodshot, no lost shoulders anymore.

W.E.G.
October 19, 2012, 10:25 PM
DRT and some meat loss is a darn sight better than a weak blood trail, and the whole deer lost - or worse yet, the WHOLE DAY lost and a wicked case of poison ivy from trying to "track" one of those phantom deer through every infested creek bed.

If I could make each bullet put TWO fist-sized, through-and-through holes in 'em, I'd be a happy camper.
The best blood trail is the one that makes a 360-degree arc around the target.

If I need more meat, I'll shot another deer.
The place is overrun with 'em.

Lloyd Smale
October 20, 2012, 07:08 AM
T and some meat loss is a darn sight better than a weak blood trail, and the whole deer lost - or worse yet, the WHOLE DAY lost and a wicked case of poison ivy from trying to "track" one of those phantom deer through every infested creek bed.

If I could make each bullet put TWO fist-sized, through-and-through holes in 'em, I'd be a happy camper.
The best blood trail is the one that makes a 360-degree arc around the target.

If I need more meat, I'll shot another deer.
The place is overrun with 'em

Try the 8mag using 200 partitions. Ive never seen a combo that put such big holes threw the rib cage of a deer! You can usually stick your fist in the exit hole. No need to say that every deer i shot with that combo was drt!!

T.R.
October 20, 2012, 10:57 AM
30-30 shooting 170 grain ammo does not destroy much meat.

TR

Lloyd Smale
October 21, 2012, 07:46 AM
actually some of the most shot up deer ive seen have been shoulder shots with a 3030. there thing skinned bullets tend to really come apart when bone is hit. Its why they kill all out of porportion to there power level.

aussiehunter steve
October 21, 2012, 08:19 AM
Head shots are good, unless you're into eating brains. High velocity bullets of adequate game calibers as suitable for body shooting will do a wonderful job on the head too. The skull usually provides a larger fatal zone than a neck.

x_wrench
October 21, 2012, 08:21 AM
the old saying still applies, you can't have your cake, and eat it too. only in this case, you can't shoot your deer, and not ruin ANY meat. a different bullet can and will help to some extent. but if you get one that is to stout, the deer is going to go a long way. imo, a drt is the best you can hope for. ruining some of the meat is a given. it sucks, but that is part of the deal. i guess you could do the hit or miss thing. shoot it in the head. either it will drop right there, or it will wander or run off. no in between. and zero ruined meat.

tahoe2
October 21, 2012, 01:54 PM
Yup! I just need to accept the 3 quarters vs no quarters prospect, and be happy!! Oh, Last night I had some awesome strip steaks, potatoes & corn with a salad. Mmmm, yummy!!!

buck460XVR
October 21, 2012, 02:12 PM
Head shots are good, unless you're into eating brains. High velocity bullets of adequate game calibers as suitable for body shooting will do a wonderful job on the head too. The skull usually provides a larger fatal zone than a neck.


i guess you could do the hit or miss thing. shoot it in the head. either it will drop right there, or it will wander or run off. no in between. and zero ruined meat.

I help teach Hunter Safety. One of the things we advise against to our students is the taking of head shots on deer. There are several reasons for this. First, the brain on a deer is not a big as many think. There is also a lot of areas in the head that when hit with a bullet are not immediately fatal. Nor do they impair the animal at first. Deer shot thru the nose or jaws usually die, but only after a long a agonizing death. Shoot a buck in the head in Wisconsin and loosen it's antlers and it is now considered a antlerless deer and you best have a tag for that. Because the target is so small on a deer's head, many times a miss will mean a hit to the upper shoulders and or hind quarters. This means a mess to clean/butcher and more meat loss than a conventional hit. Last is CWD. The prion that infects deer with CWD is found in the brain and other CNS areas. While CWD has not been shown to be passed to humans yet, it is advised to not blow brain matter all over your deer and possibly contaminate the hunter's hands or other desirable meats.

natman
October 21, 2012, 03:14 PM
what caliber & bullet do you use to avoid "meat loss". I butchered my deer yesterday, and lost one complete shoulder (off side), and half from the entry shoulder, shooting a 8mm mauser @ 120 yards with a 180 Nosler Ballistic tip @ 2600fps, the bullet went in through the front leg between the elbow & shoulder, cut the arteries off the heart and punched the lungs, then exited the off shoulder, completely destroying it. The whole shoulder was bloodshot & mutilated. Exit wound was about 4-1/2". please help! change bullet? drop speed? Change caliber? Should I go with my 30-30 or .300 Savage and leave the mauser for Elk?
What to do?

The problems are in bold. Use a tougher bullet (Corelokt/PowerPoint/Hishok for deer and Partition for elk) and don't shoot the shoulders. Try just behind the shoulder.

Kachok
October 21, 2012, 11:17 PM
Meat damage and "hydrostatic shock" are two sides of the same coin, if you want a alot of remote damage through the vitals you are going to get a bunch through the meat too (depending on shot placement of course) Those hard hitting rapid expansion poly tipped bullets that are famous for dropping deer right where they stand are the worst offenders. I never thought of a core-lokt or power point as an exceptionally tough bullet bullet, if I was ever tempted to shoot through shoulders I would load up some Barnes TSX those are tough as nails and have a good reputation for reducing meat damage, but since I am pretty good about keeping my lead out of the meat I can get away with Nosler Ballistic tips :D

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