Any AR-15 compatible chambering usable at 800-1,000yrds??


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Detritus
October 2, 2012, 10:50 PM
Note:I am serious in the question(s) i am asking below, if a bit sceptical of finding a solution not involving major headaches. I am aware that the attributes i'm looking for are at least somewhat contradictory, I'm simply asking if there is a middle ground where I can find a working balance. I am posting this to broaden my knowlege and hopefully help someone I love enjoy more of the types of shooting that I do.

While at the range this afternoon, my wife and I got to talking about the various things that each one of us would like to do firearms-wise in the near to mid-term future. One thing on my list, and one i've brought up with her in the past, is to take a basic long range rifle course (for example the "Basic precision marksman course" offered by Snipercentral (http://www.snipercentral.com/pm.phtml) or similar). While she is open to this concept my wife has some reservations relating to gear, namely suitable rifles.

Due to a past shoulder surgery and already being familar Trish would like to if at all possible stick with the AR15 platform, but of course at anything beyound 600 .223 rapidly runs out of gas, even with super heavy bullets and fast twist barrels.

So what, if any, options are availble that might stretch the ar15 platform out to the 800-1,000 mark? Or alternately anything out there capable of getting there in a bolt gun with recoil noticable below that of a .308? My rifle is too much for her shoulder, even if she got good with it she'd never make it through a one day class with it, much less a multi-day like would be necessary for a LR class.

as always thank you for your time and any knowlege or advice you choose to share.

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back40
October 2, 2012, 11:05 PM
why not an ar in .308? or look to bolt guns in the various 6mm chamberings.

GLOOB
October 2, 2012, 11:06 PM
1. Just stick a 26" barrel with a 1:8 twist rate on her AR-15 and load it with some 79 gr HPBTs.
.223 rapidly runs out of gas Who cares? Unless you need to knock over steel, the targets don't care about ft-lbs.

2. AR-10 with a heavy barrel, a muzzle brake, and a recoil pad. Throw a bipod and a flashlight on there, and anything else that will weigh it down. If your wallet isn't empty yet, have it made in .243.

mljdeckard
October 2, 2012, 11:27 PM
What about one chambered for one of the WSSMs? How far will a Grendel stretch?

Detritus
October 2, 2012, 11:29 PM
why not an ar in .308

Cost..

An AR-10 variant of some sort (probably in .260rem or similar) is on the "if we have to" list. But the cost of a complete (and suitable) ar-10 is well, daunting :eek:

as far as this thread though the idea was to see if there is anything that could work using the lower from the AR-15 she already has. Uppers are SO much easier to deal with in so many different ways.
And if the ar15 isn't viable, find out what the options and oppinions are and maybe find away to reduce or spread out the cost(s) a little.

to be quite direct about it, it would be easier to sell the idea of "Sure we can get an upper for amount Y" than the idea of "you'd need this rifle over here that is 3-4 times amount Y" ;)

C-grunt
October 3, 2012, 02:08 AM
The 6.5 Grendel is supposed to be pretty effective to 1000 yards. But in all seriousness a Mk12 rifle with M262 will get you to 1000.

Detritus
October 3, 2012, 03:46 AM
The 6.5 Grendel is supposed to be pretty effective to 1000 yards

Might have to look into that Now that Alexander Arms finally relaxed their grip a little. hate to say it but i've been ignoring the grendel and didn't know AA had released their trademark. (yes I'm one of the guys who refused to touch it while AA was refusing to let it go for SAAMI standardization).

One question though, for the folks that know. Does the Grendel really do anything that the 6.8 spc doesn't and if so what exactly?

A Mk12 rifle with M262 will get you to 1000.

I'll grant you that with a Mk12 using M262 it's possible to make hits at 1,000. Doing so consistently and without undue difficulty is another matter.

Even the AMU has stopped shooting .223/5.56 at 1K. After the 2008 High Power season they threw their support behind the effort to get the M110 accepted as a "Service Rifle" then retired their M16/AR15 based LR rigs.

.223, even pushing heavy bullets out to the very ragged edge "were the headstamp starts to fade", will have a hard time getting to 1,000yrds and staying above the speed of sound.
Not to mention I'd kind of like to be nice to my wife and not have her learn about wind drift by hitting the next target over.

armysniper
October 3, 2012, 04:06 AM
A heavy barrel bolt action rifles chambered in .308 kick about the same as an AR. The .308 cartridge was designed to be a manageable cartridge. I would seriously look again at something along the lines of a .308 bolt gun with a heavy sniper/varmint barrel. I cannot stress enough that they have very little kick.

Also if you are going through a long range course especially as a newbie, you really need to have a bolt action. It is the standard. It is more accurate, which will give you confidence at longer ranges because you will be making more hits.

As a side note, there are heavy barreled .223's on the market. And I have seen plenty of police marksmen and others shoot the 5.56/.223 out to 1000 meters on courses of fire before also. Some of these police marksmen's departments only let them carry .223 caliber. But the sniper course of fire for qualification was out to 1000 meters. They did fine and all of them did pass with those rifles.

Cee Zee
October 3, 2012, 05:01 AM
2.23 can do 1000 yards easy enough if you do it right. They use .223 to shoot F/TR and F Class competitions. In F/TR only .308 and .223 are allowed. There are also .223 1000 yard competitions at Camp Perry. And sometimes the .223's win though it isn't often. It's generally in the youth division where less kick means more control and less flinch for young shooters. But there are AR shooters that not only shoot 1000 yards but they exceed that distance getting out past 1200 yards accurately.

Keep in mind that the .223 is not going to displace a .308 as the most popular way to shoot 1000 yards because it is MUCH tougher to be on target with a .223 because the wind will blow the bullets around big time. But with modern equipment you can certainly get out that far and be fairly accurate if you know how to do it.

It should be noted that most 1000 yard .223 shooters are using bolt action rifles but the AR's can and do get out to that distance. Here's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJxQqkgGf0) of a Savage 11 .223 getting out to 1000 yards plus. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlpSTQOYmUI) is supposed to be an AR at 1000 yards but they never show the rifle, only the target. This shooter does 1250 yards (http://www.sample.com) with a Tikka .223. The round can get out there. It just takes the right equipment and that includes some AR's.

Pete D.
October 3, 2012, 06:10 AM
of course at anything beyound 600 .223 rapidly runs out of gas, even with super heavy bullets and fast twist barrel
What does run out of gas mean, really? Certainly the lighter bullets are affected by the wind but they will get there and still be spinning.
There are any number of loads, on paper at least, that will get you 2700 fps with an 80 grain bullet and with the proper twist, it will still be supersonic at 1000.
Pete

rayatphonix
October 3, 2012, 06:32 AM
On the subject of a Grendel AR15, you'll spend as much on that as you would an AR10 in 308 or 260. DPMS AR10's are available for about $1000 if you take the time to look around. I've been unable to find a Grendel cheaper.

taliv
October 3, 2012, 09:25 AM
if you have the cash, do yourself a big favor and buy a GAP10 in 6 Creedmoor (not 6.5 CM, but it's necked down to 6mm version) from GA Precision

it's extremely low recoil. and very flat shooting. and very accurate. you will have to reload. you can buy 6CM brass from GA Precision.

you can sometimes find these rifles used in the for sale section on snipershide

JustinJ
October 3, 2012, 09:49 AM
The beauty of the 6.5 is that it's ballistic coefficient allows it to remain supersonic past 1000 yards. I don't believe the 6.8 can do this but don't quote me on it. The bc of the 6.5 also makes it less affected by wind.

Shooting 1K with a .223 is silly when there are such better options out there. Hell, a 22 rimfire could hit something at 1,000 yards but it ain't practical.

Really though i would think that you would be best served in a long range shooting class using a more commonly used caliber such as .308.

jim243
October 3, 2012, 10:05 AM
For those ranges you need to look at a AR-10 in 260 or 243.

Jim

ApacheCoTodd
October 3, 2012, 12:42 PM
I used to shoot 24 inchers with 75+ grains at steel at 1000 yards at the great range at Coalinga in California. The real problem - aside form beating San Juaquin winds - was the lack of ass the round had at 1000 made it very hard to impossible to hear the impacts so the enjoyment was limited and 1000 yard paper targets were expensive.

Now at 700 - that was a lot of fun and would still tip standing pigs and such 7/10 times but I could at least hear the impacts even if they didn't tip.

mljdeckard
October 3, 2012, 03:36 PM
Saw a Grendel in a pawn shop yesterday for $900 some-odd. I asked the guy how long it had been there, he said less than a week, I doubt it will be there long.

Detritus
October 3, 2012, 03:57 PM
Now that Alexander has released the trademark, how long till Grendel barrel assemblies (to be clear barrel, gas block, and tube) become available? frankly I am capable of assembling and AR upper, that's how Trish's current AR got to config it's in now. So I don't really feel tied to the idea of "I must find a complete upper all in one go" an stripped flattop upper here, barrel assembly and bolt there, etc then put it all together.

I'm not looking to buy or build anything all that soon either, it'll be at least a year before i go down this road, if at all. I'm just at the point of gathering as much Intel as I can so that when or if the time comes that she decides she wants to shoot out beyond the capabilites of a normal AR that i have a better idea of where to start.

thank you for all the comments so far, lot to think about, talk about with Trish, possibly find a way to Try out (on the user end i mean, ie go see how SHE likes various) etc. As i siad I/we are a long way from needing to have a decision, I just feel it's best to have as much info as possible. :)

rayatphonix
October 3, 2012, 04:23 PM
Grendel uppers have been available for some time. The 6.5 LBC is essentially the same cartridge (one or two dimensions vary by .002" or so) and many have been using that. The problem is finding a complete upper for less than about $900 and quality barrels and bolts (the Grendel bolt is different from the 223 bolt) for less than about $500. Add all the rest of the hardware and you're still in the $900 range. I've also found that quality Grendel barrels seem to be backordered for about 6 months or more.

henschman
October 3, 2012, 04:39 PM
You could spend less money than any AR would cost, and wind up with a more accurate rifle, by just buying a Savage 110 series short action. Get it in any of the chamberings that fit your criteria (lighter recoil than .308 and being 1000 yard capable), such as 7mm '08 or .243. Even in factory trim a Savage will shoot circles around almost any AR, and then once you start getting into aftermarket barrels, stocks, and triggers, it really starts to get ugly.

Last month, I just bought a brand new Savage 11 Hunter XP package in .308 (with scope and mount) for $330, so I know deals can be found. They are great rifles that can be modified to your heart's content if you get more into long range precision shooting and figure out the specifics of what kind of rig you want.

armysniper
October 3, 2012, 06:44 PM
Detritus, you stated, ".223, even pushing heavy bullets out to the very ragged edge "were the headstamp starts to fade", will have a hard time getting to 1,000yrds and staying above the speed of sound."

That is a false statement. What are you basing this information on? Current factory .223 loads drive a 55 grain bullet at 3,240 fps at the muzzle. Muzzle energy is 1,282 ft. lbs.

.308's only push between 2500-2700 average which is sufficient for 1000 meter shots. So if a .223 is traveling at over 3000 fps its going much faster with plenty of velocity to target.

armysniper
October 3, 2012, 06:53 PM
One of the best AR-15 rifles for accuracy and velocity is the M&P 15 sport. Here is why.

Aside from it having mil spec innards, it has a heavier full profile barrel chambered in 5.56 nato.

Here's the kicker, it has a 1-8 twist rate with 5R rifling. This combination makes this rifle one of the most accurate, if not the most accurate factory AR 15 on the market. A lot of people turn their noses up at this rifle, but its mostly those who think that an AR 15 has to look a certain way.

Smith and Wesson left out the forward assist and dust cover, but gave us the gift of that awesome barrel. I have a standard AR 15 and the Sport. The sport out performs it by a mile.

That rifle is an excellent base for a competition rifle for long distance. The only change you would have to make to get it going for serious work, is putting a match grade trigger group in it.

jmr40
October 3, 2012, 07:18 PM
I still think an AR in 5.56 will do what you want. If not I'd look at a bolt gun in 243.

browningguy
October 3, 2012, 07:26 PM
6.5 Grendel or .243 WSSM. You can make a .223 do it but it's working pretty hard.

They use .223 to shoot F/TR and F Class competitions. In F/TR only .308 and .223 are allowed

Yes, the .223 is allowed, but hardly anyone shoots it, I can't recall the last time anyone won an F-TR event with a .223.

atblis
October 3, 2012, 07:31 PM
That rifle is an excellent base for a competition rifle for long distance. The only change you would have to make to get it going for serious work, is putting a match grade trigger group in it.
Isn't it a collapsible stock 16" carbine?

6mm AR

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek068.html

back40
October 3, 2012, 08:16 PM
One of the best AR-15 rifles for accuracy and velocity is the M&P 15 sport....one of the most accurate, if not the most accurate factory AR 15 on the market.
that's a pretty tall claim, considering the match grade guns that some companies put out.

Detritus
October 3, 2012, 10:15 PM
308's only push between 2500-2700 average which is sufficient for 1000 meter shots. So if a .223 is traveling at over 3000 fps its going much faster with plenty of velocity to target.

Muzzle Velocity is NOT an accurate indicator of downrange Velocity When comparing two different cartidges. Espcially when bullet weight doubles from one to the next (80gr is heavy for a .223 and 155gr is considered light in a .308 unless it's for Palma). there IS an inertia component where the heavier, longer, (and usually because of the previous two) better BC bullets have an advantage.

it's like saying that a yugo and a Mack truck both going 65mph will stop in the same distance with the same amount of brake pressure (Drag). Physics does not back that up. When exposed to the same amount of drag, for a given speed, the lighter object will decelerate at a higher rate than the heavier one.
Nor are your statements backed up by the actions of those shooting Long range competition. Very few shooters choose to use .223 past 6-800yards unless forced to by circumstance (unit/agency issue weapon, etc).

.223 is very marginal for anyting beyound 800 even at it's upper limits. 1K CAN be done with a .223 but it is an uphill fight. there is a reason .308 is the dominant round in F-T/R, .223 just makes for too much additional work out of the shooter on and off the range compared to .308.

C-grunt
October 3, 2012, 10:33 PM
How about a bolt gun in 243/260/6.5CM? With good loads they can very easily do 1k and have pretty little recoil.

Detritus
October 3, 2012, 10:46 PM
How about a bolt gun in 243/260/6.5CM? With good loads they can very easily do 1k and have pretty little recoil.

Definitely on the possibles list (.260 at least), and actually what I myself would prefer to do. Trish on the otherhand is kind of in love with her AR and would prefer to stay with that deisgn for reasons of familiarity and comfort (read: her possible recoil sensitivity).

Like I said earlier, I just want to explore whatelse was out there so i'd know more about what other options were available.

C-grunt
October 4, 2012, 12:26 AM
Staying with the AR and not wanting to go Mk12 route the only real option you have is the Grendel. Supposedly you can get some of the WSSM cartridges in the AR15 but I've never seen one and I can't remember ever seeing ammo either. Then again I've never looked for it.

armysniper
October 4, 2012, 03:15 AM
You also forget the physics of the greater the surface area the greater the friction. .308 is larger and slower than a .223. So your physics argument contradicts itself.

No one argues that a 22-250 is a long range bullet. The light weight of the bullet only affects the bullets velocity with a lower fps.

A match grade action, barrel and trigger in .223 will make 1000 yard shots all day long along. My statement is based upon real world experience.

It just sounds like your a .308 fanboy who argues for the sake arguing. No doubt you will have to have the last word even though you are wrong about .223

Saakee
October 4, 2012, 03:28 AM
You could build a new AR-15 on the Hydra receiver which has an interchangeable magwell. This (https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=36&type=&category=) model is an AK magwell then you just switch out magwell attachments to go back to .223/5.56.

Detritus
October 4, 2012, 05:30 AM
So your physics argument contradicts itself.

And more sources (and match results) than I can count, attest that a 175gr SMK at 2750-2800fps, will more reliably stay supersonic (and stable) out to 1,000yrds than the 69gr SMk at 3,000fps. and if you go up to the High BC 80gr and above bullet weights that many are using to get to 1K the MV advantage shrinks to next to nothing.


let's stop this, this thread is not meant to be a .223 Vs. .308 argument. Especially since I'm looking for info on what else to look at since neither one comfortably fits the requirements i'm anticipating. Being as they are the two opposite ends of the bracket.

to reiterate I'm looking for info on cartridges that have more down range energy, as relates to staying more easily supersonic out to 1K and less wind drift, than a .223, but less recoil in a managable weight rifle (the 13-14lbs of my Remington being a good top end) than .308.

Except as a fall back position neither .308 nor .223 is what i'm looking for.

That said, specifics of what exactly a given shooter is doing (including amount of range time required to stay proficient enough) to get their .223 AR to 1K and Keep it running there reliably are still welcome.

But simply saying "stick with .223 it'll do it" doesn't help.

dom1104
October 4, 2012, 12:52 PM
A heavy barrel bolt action rifles chambered in .308 kick about the same as an AR. The .308 cartridge was designed to be a manageable cartridge. I would seriously look again at something along the lines of a .308 bolt gun with a heavy sniper/varmint barrel. I cannot stress enough that they have very little kick.

Also if you are going through a long range course especially as a newbie, you really need to have a bolt action. It is the standard. It is more accurate, which will give you confidence at longer ranges because you will be making more hits.

As a side note, there are heavy barreled .223's on the market. And I have seen plenty of police marksmen and others shoot the 5.56/.223 out to 1000 meters on courses of fire before also. Some of these police marksmen's departments only let them carry .223 caliber. But the sniper course of fire for qualification was out to 1000 meters. They did fine and all of them did pass with those rifles.
This information is simply not true.

SilentStalker
October 4, 2012, 01:12 PM
I vote for a bolt gun in .308WIN as well. They are accurate as all get out and you can pick up a decent .308 cheap or you can go all out and get something on the $2000+ end. Its all up to you. As far as your wife wanting to do something with the AR because she is familiar with that platform, that is all good and gravy but I would not use that as an excuse not to get a bolt gun. You cannot get any simpler in operation than a bolt gun. My point here is that if she can operate a AR effectively then a bolt gun should be a walk in the park.

KansasSasquatch
October 4, 2012, 01:20 PM
I'm no expert at shooting 1000 yards but what about an FNAR. Sure it's .308 but from most o the reviews I've read they shoot 1moa with good ammo. Plus the examples I've handled are pretty heavy compared to the average AR15, which should help with the recoil. If its possible to add a muzzle brake that could help even more.

joustin
October 4, 2012, 01:37 PM
What about a Remington R25 in 7mm-08? Ugly camo but its heavy with a flat top upper.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Still Shooting
October 4, 2012, 02:29 PM
You may want to look also at a modern bolt rifle in 6.5x55 Swede. It has an outstanding BC, not bad on recoil at all, and the cartridge just wants to be accurate...

Howard Roark
October 4, 2012, 02:44 PM
As far as AR15s the 6mmBR is the way to go for LR low recoil and accuracy. There is not a.308 length cartridge that will feed through an AR15 lower if you plan to use your existing platform. There are several other options but you will have to make brass and or reload.

mnhntr
October 4, 2012, 03:19 PM
In the AR15 platform you have the 6x45, 6mmBR, 243wssm, 25wssm, 6.5 wssm, and 6.5 grendel for long range work.

Detritus
October 4, 2012, 06:15 PM
What about a Remington R25 in 7mm-08?
If i go the AR10/R25/whatever else name route, I'll go to either .308 or preferably .260, strictly on the merits more proven load data to get them out that far. But An AR10 type is still "on the table" so to speak. :)

There are several other options but you will have to make brass and or reload.
I already reload, and whatever winds up being the eventual solution (this is all still in the gather data stage) it's highly unlikely that I would continue to use factory ammo in it regardless. in other words I'm not scared of having to roll my own, though i would prefer to be able to buy rather than having to make (from related) cases.

I vote for a bolt gun in .308WIN as well.

I have one, it's great for me. But, at least at this time, it's too much for my wife, who's had a shoulder surgery, and is "less well padded" than I am. And frankly her recoil sensitivity is the factor that brought me to start this thread

I was/am mainly looking for info on what's out there now that will fit in the AR15 and have better performance than .223 out to 1k yards.
But i am also open to the idea of a bolt gun in a lighter recoiling cartridge be it something of ".308 class" (.260, 6.5 Creedmore, etc), or something like 6.5 Grendel (or LBC) put into a bolt gun to milk every ounce of MV out of it.

again thanks for all the info and advice, I'm enjoying reading all this and doing follow up on the bits that look promising.

68wj
October 4, 2012, 06:55 PM
How about 6.5 BR? Barrel and bolt: http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/3808/3806

Complete upper: http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/3808/6545

Nanook
October 4, 2012, 08:02 PM
As recoil is a problem for your wife, when you do settle on a rifle she likes consider putting on a Limbsaver recoil pad.

I put one on a .308 I shoot off a bench, and it really works well. It might be something that would work for your wife, whichever rifle you finally settle on.

Pachmayr makes the Decelerator which works very well too. Both have models that need to be fit to the gun, as well as slip-on models.

Infidel4life11
October 4, 2012, 09:36 PM
I've been out to 1,000 yards with a M110 (AR10) sniper rifle. With the 223/5.56 out to 1,000 takes a lot of skill which getting to that level and being consistent at hitting at that range can be a deal breaker. My first choice would be a .308, why? because I've been there it wasn't hard, kick is very low and very easy to handle. Heres a video of Travis Haley making a 1-mile shot with a 308 AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uukniV4aQS4 2nd choice would be a 243 and 3rd would be a 260. However with a 260 barrel life will come into question, ammo is a little more and not as easy to find. When you start getting into a unique AR (6.5, 243, 260) the aftermarket becomes a little more shallow vs. 5.56/7.62

helotaxi
October 5, 2012, 10:56 AM
Muzzle Velocity is NOT an accurate indicator of downrange Velocity When comparing two different cartidges. Espcially when bullet weight doubles from one to the next (80gr is heavy for a .223 and 155gr is considered light in a .308 unless it's for Palma). there IS an inertia component where the heavier, longer, (and usually because of the previous two) better BC bullets have an advantage.Bullet weight as much as it is relevant is captured in BC. BC is all that matters in how well the bullet maintains velocity.

it's like saying that a yugo and a Mack truck both going 65mph will stop in the same distance with the same amount of brake pressure (Drag). Physics does not back that up. When exposed to the same amount of drag, for a given speed, the lighter object will decelerate at a higher rate than the heavier one.Terrible analogy. Without normalizing frontal area and form drag, mass has nothing to do with ballistics. Mass in proportion to frontal area (sectional density) is one component of BC. Form factor is the other. It is very simple for SD to be overcome with form factor. Look at the BC of a 220gn .308 round nose bullet. It's in general worse than a 69gn .224 OTM bullet. The .223 bullet will carry velocity downrange better despite the major "disadvantage" in weight. Run a ballistics program and you will quickly see that bullet weight doesn't matter in trajectory calculations. Run calculations twice only changing the weight if you don't believe me.
Nor are your statements backed up by the actions of those shooting Long range competition. Very few shooters choose to use .223 past 6-800yards unless forced to by circumstance (unit/agency issue weapon, etc).

.223 is very marginal for anyting beyound 800 even at it's upper limits. 1K CAN be done with a .223 but it is an uphill fight. there is a reason .308 is the dominant round in F-T/R, .223 just makes for too much additional work out of the shooter on and off the range compared to .308.And .308 is dominated in every other long range discipline by smaller calibers using lighter bullets because weight doesn't matter. Trajectory is a factor of only two things, BC and muzzle velocity. The 6mms dominate 1k comps because they offer very good BC and excellent velocity with minimal recoil. The 7mms offer excellent BC and very good velocity but at the cost of recoil. The 6.5mms offer moderate velocity and very good to excellent BC but with significantly more recoil than the 6mms.

If you're just starting out in the long range game, a 6mm is the place to begin; and chambered in a bolt rifle. The slower lock time of an AR makes it more difficult to shoot one as well as a bot gun, especially at long range where every little thing is amplified. From a machine rest, the AR might be just as accurate, but the shooter interface has to be considered and the AR is at a disadvantage there.

helotaxi
October 5, 2012, 11:03 AM
In the AR15 platform you have the 6x45, 6mmBR, 243wssm, 25wssm, 6.5 wssm, and 6.5 grendel for long range work.
The 6x45 is a great cartridge, but not when you're talking about long range. The high BC bullets don't even begin to fit in the magazine and because of the reduced velocity require a custom barrel to even stabilize.

The .25WSSM is likewise a terrible cartridge for long range work because no one makes a suitable bullet.

The 6.5 suffers from lack of powder capacity in the Grendel and lack of available bullet length in the WSSM.

The simple fact is that by trying to start out with an AR15 when going out to 1k, you're asking for an uphill battle and frustration. Start out with a rifle actually suitable for the task. If things get too easy once you've mastered that, accept a handicap like the AR or .308. Don't start out with it.

Detritus
October 5, 2012, 11:47 AM
again thanks for al the input and feedback on this guys, it really is helpful. :)


Now i'm going to lay it all out...

I am asking for info on AR15 compatible cartridges, because i want to have a fall back position in case I can't get Trish to utilize a more suitable rig. by that I mean a bolt action or AR10 type shooting something with a High BC (my understanding is that the 6s and 6.5s do very well).

I don't really WANT to have to engage in the uphilll fight that is trying to "go Long" with a AR15 type.

My order of preference would run like this
Bolt gun
AR-10 with a VERY good trigger, in other than .308
and only if for whatever reason(s) I can not budge her from it, AR-15 in other than .223


again, my intent was primarily to find out about what's out there in the AR-15 class rounds that might do.
With a secondary idea of finding out what i could suggest to her If i CAN get trish to use a bolt gun, with her limitations in mind.

I KNOW that the AR15 isn't a truly suitable platform, so please refrain from saying that over and over again. I am looking for answers within limits that I myself did not impose, and that i hope won't actually be in full effect.

I'm searching for solutions now so that I'm not left flat-footed if it turns out that trish can't comfortably make the transition to a much more suitable platform.

taliv
October 5, 2012, 12:36 PM
look, you can still have fun with AR15s at long range, even moderately expensive ones in 223.

just hand-feed the 80g or 90g and get a big steel target instead of a little steel target. you can also buy an electronic gizmo that velcros to the back of the steel, registers impact (like the sensor in your smartphone that can tell when you're shaking it) and wire or wirelessly transmits it to a flashing red light you hang on a post several yards away. that way, you don't have to rely on detecting the sound or swing of the plate, which you won't get with the little 223. i think the systems are around $200 ea.


we're just saying not hitting anything can be frustrating if you don't have proper instruction

mnhntr
October 5, 2012, 02:14 PM
The 6x45 is a great cartridge, but not when you're talking about long range. The high BC bullets don't even begin to fit in the magazine and because of the reduced velocity require a custom barrel to even stabilize.

The .25WSSM is likewise a terrible cartridge for long range work because no one makes a suitable bullet.

The 6.5 suffers from lack of powder capacity in the Grendel and lack of available bullet length in the WSSM.

The simple fact is that by trying to start out with an AR15 when going out to 1k, you're asking for an uphill battle and frustration. Start out with a rifle actually suitable for the task. If things get too easy once you've mastered that, accept a handicap like the AR or .308. Don't start out with it

I completely agree with you. My long range work is done with a Savage LRP in .260remington. I was just throwing out the calibers in the AR15 platform that are better than the .223 for long range. None are ideal but some are better. If it was me I would buy her a .243 or .260 bolt gun.

atblis
October 5, 2012, 03:48 PM
6mm AR Turbo. 105 gr Berger going 2800 fps+. Looks to be the best long range AR cartridge on paper (drop and wind drift).

Detritus
October 28, 2012, 06:17 PM
Somedays I'm sure that among the reasons i Love my wife is the fact that living with her, and trying my best to figure out how to accomplish goals that involve her, is never ever Boring!

All of this thinking i've been doing on how to get her shooting longer ranges, or a scoped centerfire period. Thinking that based on past expereince she'd be reluctant to move away from the AR platform....

And then almost as a joke (holding out little real hope), I handed her a Used Savage model 12 in .223 (it's marked "12 Long Range" but i can't find a matching model listing) one of the shops I frequent has on hand. and now we're trying to figure out how to scrape up the extra cash to get it.

Summary of what we found, it's at a decent price, comes with a few extras including the load recipe that produced dime sized 5-shot 100yrd groups for the previous owner.
the idea at this point (if we're able to get it) is to get her behind the trigger of it as is, since it'll be months if not a year+ before she ever works up to ready to go beyond 300yrds with it much less over 600. and in the meantime I'll gather the parts and tools to convert it to .243 (easy on a Savage) for when or if she decides to try shooting longer range.

kingcheese
October 28, 2012, 09:11 PM
6mm, 6.5grendle, and a couple of uppers in 50bmg and 338, not really sure how the larger two feel with their recoil, but the 6.5 can reach out a long way

Edarnold
October 29, 2012, 01:09 PM
Another vote for a bolt action:
.243 Winchester with 105gr (A-Max) or 107gr (Sierra MK) readily handles ranges to 1K. Standard, readily available, low cost components in a proven caliber.
Start with a Savage Accutrigger short action from the cheapest rifle you can find, new or used. Add a 24" Shaw stainless varmint weight barrel with the 1 in 8 twist necessary to spin those long bullets for $200 plus fitting. Drop into a Choate Ultimate Varmint or Tactical stock for another $200. Add your choice of mount and scope and go shooting.
You get a roughly 12 pound gun that is well adapted for long range, has very mild recoil, and avoids odd-ball or proprietary components for a very reasonable cost. If you bought the barrel sleeve wrench, you can swap out barrels to try other calibers for the cost of the barrel.

IMHO

Littlemac
October 29, 2012, 02:20 PM
i have been successful in reaching out to 1000 yards with ar. i put a 24" shilen barrel chambered in .223 wylde and used 80 Nosler and Yellow box bullets. Not hard to do at all. You can see the results at NTSA when I went with him to 5 pts tx to shoot at that range

At 20 hits in a row on a man size targets not much of a challenge.

AABEN
October 29, 2012, 06:31 PM
The 6.5 is the best way to go. You can't go wrong.Read the Shooting Times Dec 2012 Jan 2013 it has a good wright up on the 6.5

meanmrmustard
October 29, 2012, 07:40 PM
Methinks a .260 rem would be grand.

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