[vito]

Folks can pretty passionate about their favorite caliber for self defense, arguing about why their chosen round is better than others, but I really wonder if in the real world there is much difference between the majority of calibers in terms of effectiveness for self defense. I'm not including the tiny rounds, like 22lr or 25 acp, but I wonder if 45acp is really what I need to feel safely armed. So I pose the question about the two rounds that seem to be the most common now for concealed carry, 9mm and 40S&W. Being a 45acp type guy, I tend to favor the 40, but I wonder what the rest of the real world says about one or the other as an ideal carry and personal defense round or do most of the readers of THR feel its just a matter of personal preference, without a clear difference between the two.

[ku4hx]

Shot placement is king no matter what gun or caliber. I have several in 9mm, 40 Cal, .357 Sig and 45 ACP and feel sufficiently armed with any of them. One key factor is to become proficient with whatever caliber you choose. Hits with a ___________ (fill in the blank) are infinitely better than misses with anything else.

[TarDevil]

Oh my goodness...

[Jed Carter]

With a pistol, it could take multiple hits to neutralize a threat. For me I can shoot a 9mm a lot faster on target than I can a .40. Double taps with my .40 G35 Glock are a lot more spread out than with my 9mm G34. That being said I can shoot my SIG RCS, a CCO sized 1911 in .45ACP as well as any of my pistols, it is what I conceal carry on a daily basis. Use what you shoot the best, then practice, practice, practice until it all becomes automatic. Caliber is purely a personal preference, they are all as deadly or inefective as the shooter is.

[Tcruse]

There is no correct answer to your question. There are opinions, some with support from test/study results. So here are my conclusions:
1) 9, .40 and .45 acp will all be effective to a similar degree with the best HP ammo
2) Test results generally reflect the gun being a service sized gun, when short barrels are used 9 and .40 performance is somewhat less affected. (.45 GAP vs .45 ACP should be noted)
3) if using ball ammo, .45 will be best but not at good compared to HP ammo
4) should your target be not be of the 2 leg variety, then the rules change
5) your performance can go down with too powerful caliber.

[Morgan8119]

Not many people can recover from a shot to the head regardless of caliber....

[Sam1911]

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. Don't worry about it. Carry WHATEVER service cartridge and gun you can put the most hits where you need to, fastest.

[460Kodiak]

Not many people can recover from a shot to the head regardless of caliber....

True, but the reason that this debate comes up over and over and over again is that anyone who ccw's knows that making a head shot in a high stress dynamic situation is increadibly hard. That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun. There is some merit to the ever ongoing caliber debate and the terminal balistics of each cartridge, but hitting your target in a critical area, like center of mass, is the most important part. Hitting your target with a .22 is more effective than missing with a canon ball.

The best is different for everyone. It's whatever you can hit your target with quickly and consistantly with.

I used to humbug 9mm, and now I'd carry one in a heartbeat. Platform totally changes the shootability of many cartridges. All that being said, I'm a .45 guy, especially in a 1911.

[NG VI]

Post #6 has some very good objective points to think about.

The difference between a well-designed JHP in 9mm, .40, or .45, in an appropriate weight, hitting the same area on a human body, is not very significant, while some of the advantages of 9mm are very real advantages over the other two calibers, and the advantages grow as you ensmallen the gun in question.

[wildehond]

Find the one that you can shoot well and enjoy shooting. This meanss you will practice more and hit what you shoot at if it ever comes down to it. The rest is details.

[minutemen1776]

I've said this here before, but I find that 9mm is the largest caliber I can consistently shoot well in a CCW-sized pistol given the limited opportunities I have to practice. Given more range time, I can operate a .40/.45 just as well, but reality dictates that I can only practice so much. Even if it's been a month or more since my last range trip, I can place rounds where I want them with a 9mm. That's not necessarily true for the bigger calibers.

[SIGLBER]

The best JHP's in any of the major calibers (9mm and up) are all designed to meet the F.B.I. criteria for penetration and expansion. Some 9mm rounds expand and penetration better than some .40, .45, whatever. Any differences are small. After carrying .40, and .45 for years I'm back to 9mm. same as others have said. It's about where you put it.
From experience I've seen guys dropped with everything from .380 to .45. Hit good they are down. Don't hit good, they are in it. Once you get past the t.v. and movie b.s., urban myth, and so on you realize any handgun round only makes a hole. It's where it makes the hole that makes the diference. The 9mm with Winchester Rangers, Gold Dots, or ederal HST's work very well.
With te increase in number of assailants due to home invasions, gangs, etc..
I want lots of bullets, fast follow up, and cheap rounds so I can practice lots.
It makes sense.

[481]

With a premium JHP, caliber makes little difference these days.

I generally go with the 9mm for its capacity (17+1 in the Glock 17), but sometimes it's a .45 kinda day and the USP45 gets some love. :)

[The Lone Haranguer]

In the same size gun, 9mm will typically give you ~1-3 extra chances to hit him.

[Tangent123123]

It really is personal preference. As everyone has stated, shot placement is king. So practice practice practice.

Me personally, I prefer the 9mm. When using a .40 I find that I really dislike the muzzle flip I was getting with it. Maybe it's just me, but my follow up shots just aren't as accurate with a .40. But to each their own.

[Old Dog]

Nine versus forty? Thank goodness a question we haven't had asked before ... oh, wait ... never mind.

Well, at least it's not 9mm vs. .45 ACP.

And no, there's just not enough difference for me. YMMV.

I'll go with the caliber that allows me to shoot faster, more accurately and well, yeah -- much cheaper. The best factory 9mm JHPs are now so effective with regard to penetration and expansion, and just plain easier for most to shoot, that the .40's been rendered unnecessary ...

[Skribs]

I used to be part of the .40 crowd (mainly because I wasn't sure between .45 and 9, so I split it) and I finally decided that between the two, I want the 9. Overall, the difference between the two is that the .45 will nick what the 9 will miss by a sliver, especially when 9mm expands to a greater percentage of its original size than the .45.

I still EDC .40, but I have added a 9, and when I can afford it I'm switching from the .40 to another 9 as my primary.

[Tophatter]

If you're truly curious, I'd read this: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

What I take away from that study is the following:
Average # of Rounds to Incapacitation:
9mm - 2.45
.40S&W - 2.36
.45 ACP - 2.08

What that tells me is that if I ever have to shoot to save my life, chances are good that I'll be shooting at least twice. I do that both best and fastest with a 9mm.

And there are, of course, about twenty other studies out there on "stopping power" and so forth. They all say more or less the same thing: there is no magic bullet, CNS hits are what count, and shoot what you're best with.

[Big_E]

Another caliber war thread.

I honestly don't care about what round I'm carrying. There is such little difference in the Big 3 (9mm, .40, .45) with proper bullet and shot placement. I prefer 9 and .45 over .40SW just because I find the .40 uncomfortable to shoot due to it's snappiness.

Personally, I carry .38 SPL +P. Absolute lowest i'd go is .380 maybe .32. If I ever find and M&P Shield 9 I will probably carry that.

Just get whatever you find comfortable and can afford to practice with.

[Teachu2]

If limited to 9mm and 40S&W, the 9mm wins for me. My accuracy and speed are both better with it in the same platforms, and ammo is significantly cheaper. It is also more pleasant to shoot, so it gets more practice time. My "dressy" CCW is a LC9.

That said, my primary CCW is a Glock 30. Ten rounds is the effective limit on mags in CA, and I shoot it very, very well. YMMV.

[tomrkba]

Not again!

If you're truly curious, I'd read this: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

What I take away from that study is the following:
Average # of Rounds to Incapacitation:
9mm - 2.45
.40S&W - 2.36
.45 ACP - 2.08

What that tells me is that if I ever have to shoot to save my life, chances are good that I'll be shooting at least twice. I do that both best and fastest with a 9mm.

And there are, of course, about twenty other studies out there on "stopping power" and so forth. They all say more or less the same thing: there is no magic bullet, CNS hits are what count, and shoot what you're best with.

Hit them three times then! Be generous and share your ammo.

[MedWheeler]

That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun.

And empty the gun? I've never heard that from any qualified SD or LE firearms instructor? Of course, it's been years since I've had any "formal" training.. have times really changed that much? We used to call that an "adrenaline dump."

[Godsgunman]

Nope, no difference. Not with todays ammo. 9, 40, 45 are all limited and on the same playing field when you are considering a consealable carry gun. It'll take multiple shots from them all so they are equal. Just whichever one you feel you can shoot best and for me thats 9mm.

[Bozwell]

Probably better to say shoot until the threat is stopped? Not necessarily empty the gun, but don't just assume 1 bullet (even a mythical .45acp) is going to send a bad guy flying.

[Fishbed77]

That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun.

All classes I've taken have taught to "shoot until the threat has ceased."

Not to "empty the gun," as you never know where the next threat may come from.

The instructor at my most recent class (who is the firearms instructor and armorer for a local sheriff's dept.) relayed a recent incident where an armed robber attempting a home invasion was shot a single time in the heart by the homeowner with a .45ACP pistol (a Hi-Point of all things). The perpetrator continued to break the door down, before finally turning and running approximately 40 yards before dropping to the ground.

The moral of the story was that you can't always depend on caliber, nor can you always depend on shot placement. In this particular case, the homeowner failed to shoot until the threat had ceased, but was fortunate to come away from the incident largely unharmed.

[DanTheFarmer]

Hi All,

The OP said "but I wonder if 45acp is really what I need to feel safely armed". To me the important thing is what makes you feel most comfortable, what gives you peace of mind. That's what we're really buying when we spend money on gear, training, and practice. I believe we're spending money so we can feel good that we are protecting ourselves and loved ones.

The replies to this (and INNUMERABLE related threads) do provide good information on which to make a decision. I would guess the concensus is that anything in the 380ACP to 45ACP range can provide effective defense in many/most situtations. Some can make valid arguments for 32ACP and our Alaskan friends might demand 44 magnum but again it all about what makes YOU feel comfortable.

Read up, decide if you will feel better with a few slow, heavy bullets vs. more lighter, faster bullets, make a decision and sleep better tonight.

Good Luck.

Dan

[mljdeckard]

In the real world, with modern bonded premium defensive bullets, I think there is so little difference between the two, I have dropped the .40, I am training my wife on a 9 for shootability and affordability.

I might add that I still carry 230 gr .45 HSTs. I think that they have an advantage, even if it's not as big of an advantage as some people seem to believe on the internet. I have practices with it long enough, that I shoot it the best and I am the most comfortable with it. THAT is what should make the decision for any shooter.

[marb4]

The instructor at my most recent clas (who is the firearms instructor and armorer for a local sheriff's dept.) relayed a recent incident where an armed robber attempting a home invasion was shot a single time in the heart by the homeowner with a .45ACP pistol (a Hi-Point of all things). The perpetrator continued to break the door down, before finally turning and running approximately 40 yards before dropping to the gound.

The moral of the story was that you can't always depend on caliber, nor can you always depend on shot placement. In this particular case, the homeowner failed to shoot until the threat had ceased, but was fortunate to come away from the incident largely unharmed.
Too bad the home owner didn't have a 1911. The bad guy didn't drop immediately because the bullet was fired out of a Hi Point. More proof that those are garbage guns. ;)

[Old Dog]

That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun. I need to find out who these "pistol SD teachers" that are spouting garbage such as this so I could steer any prospective clients aways from them.

Too bad the home owner didn't have a 1911. The bad guy didn't drop immediately because the bullet was fired out of a Hi Point. More proof that those are garbage gunsActually, had the homeowner had a 1911, once the bad guy saw it, he'd have been so scared that he'd have instantly dropped dead from heart failure, thus saving the homeowner valuable ammo.

[Fishbed77]

Too bad the home owner didn't have a 1911. The bad guy didn't drop immediately because the bullet was fired out of a Hi Point. More proof that those are garbage guns.

Actually, had the homeowner had a 1911, once the bad guy saw it, he'd have been so scared that he'd have instantly dropped dead from heart failure, thus saving the homeowner valuable ammo.

My thoughts exactly! :D

[Derek Zeanah]

That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun.
At Gunsite the "standard response" was 2 to the torso, then reevaluate. If the threat still exists, shoot for the head.

But yeah, shoot to stop the threat, then stop shooting.

[GLOOB]

No, there's not a big difference for personal defense. But there's not a big difference in capacity or cost of ammo, either. And there's also not a big difference in recoil in some cases.

A lot of people complain about recoil and accuracy/speed of followups. If this is an issue for you, in the specific gun you are interested in, then it's probably not worth it.

[460Kodiak]

When using a .40 I find that I really dislike the muzzle flip I was getting with it. Maybe it's just me, but my follow up shots just aren't as accurate with a .40. But to each their own.

That's why I changed to a .45 acp. You aren't alone.

Quote:
That's why pistol SD teachers say aim center of mass and empty the gun.

I need to find out who these "pistol SD teachers" that are spouting garbage such as this so I could steer any prospective clients aways from them.


YIKES!!!! I made a mistake and shouldn't have said it that way! Funny, I went out to the woods to do my job, and thought about that post and wondered how many people would verbaly smack me around. Now that I have a chance to look, I see there are a few. :o

You are all correct. Shoot until the threat stops.

Don't empty the gun if there is no need, as a another threat may come at you. Also, emptying the gun into an imobilized or subdued target would certainly be viewed as excessive in court. My appologies for the incorrect remark. I meant shoot until the threat has stopped.

[MedWheeler]

460Kodiak writes:

Funny, I went out to the woods to do my job, and thought about that post..

Also funny that you mention thinking about your post long after posting it.. I do that, too, and also wonder sometimes if I need to return to the thread and clarify or change something..