Is this a TRAP?


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Meanoldfart
January 31, 2003, 07:11 PM
A lot of you know that I do trigger tune-ups on SKS's,I am now selling new completed T.G. on Ebay.
I got this email today and I can't figure out if this guy is this stupid or if he's a Fed. that thinks I am. I xxx'd out his email address, but if someone knows how to trace it, I'll p.m. it to you.

Hi listen I like the SKS too I am about to get anothe rone and that one
will be the play gun ( If you know whaty I mean ) but listen I know its
ileagle to make then a full auto but i have seen where you could buy
the plans to do it yourself, my question is this, I know enough to know
that to make it full auto it would have to be in the trigger group mabe
file something down or something , but could you do this? i would
gladly pay for a group like this ( somehting i could swap in and out too
) but i dont see any legal thing on your part because im the one
installing it and using it ( if i did ) if you cant that cool but could you
tell me how or point me in the direction i need to go to do this my
self? also you got any GOOD 30rd clips? the one i have for mine is a crappy
spring one, do they make any good quality ones? if you got some i would
be interested, also email me back at xxxxxxxxx.net becauseI
forgot what email I used for this ebay account. thanks guy

Sam

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Greg L
January 31, 2003, 07:18 PM
Sting or stupid, I'm leaning towards sting. I can't believe that anyone would send this to a stranger (of course we read about the dumb ones daily).

Greg

BerettaNut92
January 31, 2003, 07:21 PM
Being as the guy/girl's command of the English language is elementary-school level, even if you did do business with him/her and he was honest, (s)he'd probably bungle the check or MO.

Just tell him/her that the trigger group is illegal without jumping thru all the legal paperwork, and SKS clips only have 10 rounds.

Try to find shareware program called Neotrace. I think it's commercial , but there may be a trial version, but it'll probably be neutered. Open the source of the e-mail and you can find the IP there. Plug that IP in and it'll tell you which ISP it ends up at. tracert does something like that, but I don't know too much about it.

cheygriz
January 31, 2003, 07:21 PM
TRAP!!!

TRAP!!!!

DON'T TOUCH THIS ONE WITH A TEN FOOT POLE!!!!!

This sounds like a typical BATF operation. The same type of crap that got two members of Randy Weavers' family murdered!

GregoryTech
January 31, 2003, 07:25 PM
I'm thinking "stupid" since he's asked for specific illegal actions, thus "entrapping" you, rather than being vague and letting you offer up. But what do I know...

Anyway, dowload the program Sam Spade:

http://samspade.org/ssw/dl.html

It's useful for tracking down spam email so maybe it can help you find the source (at least the ISP/Company server) of the message.

Autolite
January 31, 2003, 07:26 PM
I don't see the upside of dealing with the guy. If it's not a sting, then the guy sounds too stupid to trust. Leave it alone ...

10-Ring
January 31, 2003, 07:28 PM
If there was a "red flag" smilie, they'd be plastered all over this reply.
Trap, sting, stupid mo fo, whatever he is....You know enough to just tell him NO & to go away!

Mike Irwin
January 31, 2003, 07:30 PM
Don't even answer it!


I'd say the chances are VERY good that it's a pathetic attempt at a sting.

KMKeller
January 31, 2003, 07:32 PM
Skunk - Just open up a command window in windows and type "tracert 192.26.124.243" of course substituting the captured IP address. It'll track the IP back through the net and list the hops it made on the way. There are a thousand better utilities, but tracert will do the job just fine.

Marshall
January 31, 2003, 07:34 PM
If you really want action on it and want to be on record also, call the FBI or ATF and give it to them. If it was them, it would be hilarious if you do call them and give them the info and, not a bad idea either. :scrutiny: You may possibly save a life, never know?

GregoryTech
January 31, 2003, 07:35 PM
Skunk - Just open up a command window in windows and type "tracert 192.26.124.243" of course substituting the captured IP address. It'll track the IP back through the net and list the hops it made on the way. There are a thousand better utilities, but tracert will do the job just fine.

That only tells you one route (the current one, subject to change) from YOUR computer to theirs (if it's a real IP address). Useful in it's own right, but not quite what you described.

rock jock
January 31, 2003, 07:40 PM
My vote is for stupid, not sting.

Okiecruffler
January 31, 2003, 07:48 PM
If this were a sting, wouldn't it be awfully close to entrapment? Of course, with today's climate I don't know how much leeway THEY have. :scrutiny: I probably don't want to know.

Wildalaska
January 31, 2003, 07:52 PM
Send it to the ATF...

WildtoomanyjerksouthereAlaska

KMKeller
January 31, 2003, 07:55 PM
GregoryTech - Yep, you're right about that. Hopefully it'll send back the IP and name for the border router and whatnot. I've used it before to track a hacker on a private shooting range club website and it gave me the path right back to his computer... through the UNC network, into the school of public health. A quick call to their admins lit him up pretty nicely.

Sindawe
January 31, 2003, 07:59 PM
I'd not touch that one w/ a 20 foot pole axe. :)

As far as IDing the IP of the sender, the site http://www.network-tools.com will do an express trace like tracert, lookup who owns the block that the IP is pulled from and all kinds of other stuff, and its FREE!!!!

jmbg29
January 31, 2003, 08:07 PM
If this were a sting, wouldn't it be awfully close to entrapment?Two words...Randy Weaver.

Ryder
January 31, 2003, 08:22 PM
They are still using the Sam signature? That shows an enourmous lack of imagination. Gov't stings have used the Sam sig before.

That is UNCLE SAM.

suvdrvr
January 31, 2003, 08:28 PM
I would vote for notifing the boys and girls at booze, butts, and bullets!

thumbtack
January 31, 2003, 08:39 PM
I vote for just plain stupid.

I just wonder how many people here have been in an ATF trap before, several folks said it sounded like a trap. How do you know what a traps sounds like?

Standing Wolf
January 31, 2003, 09:27 PM
I'd say it's a trap being laid by a complete moron.

Meanoldfart
January 31, 2003, 09:33 PM
The guy had emailed me from his Ebay account, I decided that I wanted something on the record that I turned him down and that I didn't want to hear from him again.
I emailed him that I thought that what HE did was already a violation of the law and that I didn't want to hear from him again and I blocked him as an ebay bidder on my account. If I hear from him again, I'll report him to the Feds myself.
MOF:evil:

falconer
January 31, 2003, 11:43 PM
That would most definately be a case of entrapment. If they contacted you out of the blue and asked you to provide an illegal service it is entrapment. If they placed an add selling full-auto trigger groups and you call them, its enticement and fair game.

Beren
January 31, 2003, 11:46 PM
Bah. You should have turned it around and entrapped him, just for fun. :) The idea of one ATF agent attempting to arrest another makes me giggle.

PATH
February 1, 2003, 12:22 AM
I guess it takes all kinds. Sounds like a bozo to me but you never know. Always assume the FEDS. Although it is not like you would do something stupid like that anyway!

Mark Benningfield
February 1, 2003, 12:59 AM
Hello All.

Entrapment, my aunt's fanny!!! As I recall, the Feds walked up to Randy Weaver and asked him to cut the shotgun down and then indicted him when he did it!! You can holler entrapment all you want, but I don't think it will do you a bit of good anymore. They'll just say that it's aggressive law enforcement. My advice is CYA!!!

CWL
February 1, 2003, 03:38 AM
Either way, you don't really want any of it do you?

Just send a bland email back saying that you are not able to do so because it is unlawful for you to do so and you do not know anyone to refer him to. Don't escalate it any further.

Don't get anymore involved than that. If it's a crazy -you don't want him to carry a grudge against you. If FED, you want to be clean and not give them reason to hound you further.

Seeker
February 1, 2003, 04:05 AM
Sting.

I know a fella that got tripped up some years ago in a similar situation.

GregoryTech
February 1, 2003, 07:29 AM
GregoryTech - Yep, you're right about that. Hopefully it'll send back the IP and name for the border router and whatnot. I've used it before to track a hacker on a private shooting range club website and it gave me the path right back to his computer... through the UNC network, into the school of public health. A quick call to their admins lit him up pretty nicely.

Yea, makes sense. Good catch on the hacker!

Meanoldfart
February 1, 2003, 09:20 AM
O.K. this guy has really got me nervous now, I sent him a reply to the email address that the original message came from. That address was:
sampage@corpusmail.com
This is what I sent:
Dear Sam,
I am only answering you to give you warning that what
you are asking is illegal.
I DO NOT ENGAGE IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES.
I am not even sure that the act of soliciting me to do
this would not get YOU put in jail.
Please do not email me in the future and do not bid on
any thing that I have for sale, your bid will not be
accepted.
James
This was returned as an invalid address, so this morning, I sent the same message to the email address that is in the body of his original message: spear53@comcast.net
I am posting this to cover me in case this is a trap. I don't want to get this guy in trouble if he is just ignorant, but I'm going to print this out and turn it over to the local sheriff dept. this morning.
MOF

Don Gwinn
February 1, 2003, 10:19 AM
Sting. AG Jim Ryan ran the same kind of thing here in Illinois. Had his investigators bid on guns on internet auction sites, then ask to have them shipped directly instead of going through an FFL. He prosecuted five people who told his investigators no but were then convinced by the investigators that what they were asking was legal and that they wouldn't be breaking the law.

Don Gwinn
February 1, 2003, 10:34 AM
Just for purposes of illustration, here are the messages exchanged in Ryan's sting. Don't let this happen to you!


Exchanges between investigators and gun sellers in Ryan sting
December 20, 2001
Associated Press

Attorney General Jim Ryan launched an investigation of Internet gun sales last year. An undercover Ryan investigator bought six guns, but Ryan's lawyers dropped most of the cases because the investigator falsely told sellers they could legally transfer the weapons without going through a federally licensed dealer.

Here are excerpts from the e-mail exchanges, obtained through the Illinois Freedom of Information Act.

Israeli Galil assault rifle from Gresham, Ore.

Seller: "I'm not a dealer, just an honest citizen. I am however, aware that federal regulations require that if I transfer a firearm across state lines it must be transferred to a federal firearms license holder in the state of receipt. ... I can't take the risk of (ticking) off the Feds. I simply have to much to lose, wife, kids, job, house, etc. I'm sure the (federal authorities) would lock me up or at the very least fine the (deleted) out of me."

Investigator: "I spoke to a FFL that works in the same building as I do. He said in Illinois, as long as neither of us is a FFL gun dealer all I need is a valid Fire Arms Owner Identification Card. ... I would really like to avoid the hassle and expense of going through a dealer. Why should we put money in his pocket for doing nothing but having a piece of paper?"

Seller: "Thanks for your reply to my concerns about interstate firearms transfers. I must admit that I have never done this before and don't want to be liable for doing anything illegal."


AK-47 MAK 90 from Panama City, Fla.

Seller: "It will have to be shipped through a licensed dealer to a
licensed dealer."

AG: "If you are not a dealer, I believe you can ship the AK directly to me. This would cut out the expense of both of us having to pay dealers."

Seller, after reading about the federal dealer rule: "I believe it means that at least I must use a fire arms dealer from my end. Do you know the laws on this?"

AG: "We are both private citizens so you can sell to me directly."


AK-47 MAK 90 from Bartlesville, Okla.

Seller: "In checking with the local gun shop here in town the only way to sell a firearm is that it has to be sent from one FFL licensed party to another. ... I am not sure if it also applies to parts."

AG: "I do not believe parts have to go through a FFL, otherwise mail order places would be out of business."

Seller: "I just wanted to be legal about the transaction. ... I will
ship as parts. Like you say, no FFL required on the parts."


AK-47 MAK 90 from Forestville, N.Y.

Seller: "I need to send it to an FFL dealer, right?"

AG: "If you are not a dealer and just a private citizen, you can sell
directly to me."

Seller: "The only way you can send things via the mail over state lines is by sending to a valid FFL dealer. ... Sorry if this makes you change your mind, but I don't want to go to jail!"

AG: "How do you feel about breaking the gun down into two parts and sending them to me that way? It is definitely not illegal to send gun parts directly to an individual."

Seller: "All right. I'll break it down and send 2 packages."

****************************************


Notice the message from the guy who actually read the rule and still couldn't figure out what in the world it means? Tell me that wasn't the plan when these laws were passed

SteyrAUG
February 1, 2003, 11:58 AM
It's a trap no matter how you slice it.

If not feds or local LE, it is most certainly a complete moron. And a complete moron is even more dangerous. A complete moron will absolutely get caught and will absolutely send all interested parties in your direction.

My gut tells me you are dealing with a complete moron. Steer clear and avoid.

Jmurman
February 1, 2003, 03:04 PM
it is a trap...

Travis McGee
February 1, 2003, 03:49 PM
Judging from the broken syntax and childlike spelling, I'd say it was a serious effort at entrapment by the BATFE.

Justin
February 1, 2003, 04:05 PM
I think you should highlight all of his grammatical errors in red, and return the text with a grade.

Writing like that would have landed me a big fat solid 'F' back in my highschool days.:neener:

j/k

What you've done is probably the best route to take.

bbrins
February 1, 2003, 05:12 PM
Sounds like a trap to me. This person's grammar is so bad that it almost looks intentional. :scrutiny:

Zundfolge
February 1, 2003, 05:14 PM
If it is a sting, is there a chance that since you won't break the big law by making and selling machine guns, will they try to get you for the little law of not reporting criminal activity?

I'd forward a copy of all the correspondence in this to the local police or Sheriff's office (not the BATF ... let the local cops call the FBI and have them contact those BATF loonies).

DMK
February 1, 2003, 08:38 PM
I'd say it's some immature moron and I'd also be aprehensive about alerting the authorities about it. They probably aren't going to be able to track the guy. I'm a computer professional and have contacted the FBI or been contacted by the FBI for various internet related (not gun related) problems. To be frank, they have never seemed to be very successful at tracking bad guys down on the 'net.

To make matters worse, they may even have all kinds of questions about what you are doing. I'm sure you aren't doing anything illegal, but why even open that can of worms unless you have to? It's not worth it over just some idiot emailing you.

I think the best advice here was to not reply and completely ignore any further requests of this sort.

tyme
February 1, 2003, 08:54 PM
Forward it to the FBI and CIA and tell them given current hostilities in the Middle East, you're inclined to suspect Islamic radicals trying to build an armory. :) If it's an idiot, he'll probably be disappeared. If it's a BATF agent, I see pedantic paper shuffling in his future.

Meanoldfart
February 1, 2003, 08:56 PM
I made copies of all emails and took them to the local sheriff office . It was kind of funny because as soon as two of the deputies started reading the first email, one of them said "it looks like a set up to me".
I left copies with them and got a receipt for them and they assigned a case no.
I doubt that they will do anything, but, I feel like I have covered my ***.
MOF

NeverAgain26
February 2, 2003, 02:11 PM
Contact a lawyer and find out if you have any liability in ignoring this. You might be legally obliged to report it. I see you did, but make sure it's properly documented.

Do the right thing, but make sure you are legal in whatever you do. CYA, in other words.

Even if it's someone being stupid, no reason to expose yourself. If a stupid guy was next to me at the range, I take it to the rangemaster. Someone (that person, me or someone else) could get hurt. Better safe than sorry.

Good luck.

NA26

Kevlarman
February 2, 2003, 03:45 PM
It's a trap!
http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg

Diesle
February 2, 2003, 04:32 PM
Ask for the guys real name, address, phone number, mothers name, SS #, bank account #, etc....

Youll never hear from him again.

Seriously though, your taking the right steps. I think youve effectivly defused the situation in full. Doesnt appear to be a need for further communications.

If the cops come a knockin, tell them nothing, and i mean nothing without having first consulted with your lawyer. I MEAN NOTHING... not even you favorite color. Theyll have 36 hours to charge you or release you... And in this case, they wont have anything unless you give them something.

Diesle

Monte Harrison
February 3, 2003, 09:20 AM
...and SKS clips only have 10 rounds. I didn't catch this. I guess whenever I hear or read a stupid or ignorant person discussing guns, I am conditioned to expect them to say "clip" instead of "magazine."

JamisJockey
February 3, 2003, 09:45 AM
I say turn the tables. Call the ATF and get them involved. If its a gov troll trying to entrap you, the ATF won't be interested....:eek:

Topgun
February 3, 2003, 12:11 PM
a guy pulled up and asked if I wanted to buy "30 grand of STOLEN jewelry"

I told him I would like to see it and while he went out to the car, I called the cops.

Well..........guess what...........the cops weren't very interested.

I gave them his license number and description and was watching him out the window.

THEN guess what......he got in his car and drove away. Golly, he must have lost his jewelry or sumpin.

And no cops showed up or followed up.

Gosh, I wonder if it was some kind of trap?

Rebel Gunman HK
February 3, 2003, 12:53 PM
Trust no one :scrutiny:

foghornl
February 3, 2003, 01:03 PM
My reply, after performing the steps you took:


"................and the horse you rode in on.":evil:

firestar
February 3, 2003, 01:25 PM
I didn't know you legally had to report things like this. I thought the best course of action would be just to ignore the guy but now I'm worried.

So let me get this straight, if someone contacts you and wants you to do something illegal, you have to report it or you could go to jail? What the heck?

Navy joe
February 3, 2003, 02:58 PM
Hello All.

Entrapment, my aunt's fanny!!! As I recall, the Feds walked up to Randy Weaver and asked him to cut the shotgun down and then indicted him when he did it!! You can holler entrapment all you want, but I don't think it will do you a bit of good anymore. They'll just say that it's aggressive law enforcement. My advice is CYA!!!


Actually Mark, the agents pretty much had to beg Weaver to do it, he repeatedly told them what the laws were before he was finally talked into doing it. Less than a 1/2" illegal too I believe. Sure you can trust the government, just ask any indian! (Edited to correct: Indian should read earlierthanwhiteynativeasian-american. )

Meanoldfart
February 3, 2003, 03:40 PM
If not reporting this is an infraction of some B.S. law or not.
If you have a book in your house that describes how to make a bomb out of "diesel fuel and Tide", and you have a can of diesel fuel in the shed and a box of Tide in the cabinet, the BATF will try to charge you with making a bomb.
Since I didn't KNOW, I did what I think will CMA.
If this guy is just a doofus, I don't want him to get in trouble, BUT, better him than ME.
MOF

Pendragon
February 3, 2003, 04:07 PM
you are under no obligation to report a crime although there are certain exceptions.

You could possibly be an accessory if you have a conversation with someone and go too far down the road.

Also - some places do have good samaritan laws that may require you to report certain crimes in certain circumstances. Teachers and priests and such are required to report any suspicions of child abuse.

Something like this - I would ignore it. I would actually be tempted to bait the guy to see where it went - but then, I am a crazy, curious SOB and I would only do so if I was 100% sure I was legal and even then its a really bad idea. I suspect there is a fair to decent chance that if you chopped a shotgun bbl to 18.1" that they would rechop it to make it illegal and nab you for it.

tetchaje1
February 3, 2003, 06:20 PM
This is almost as bad as the guy in California who wanted to buy a P7M13 off of me. Well they aren't legal in Cali, nor are the mags, so he said, "just send the gun and mags to me via USPS and label it 'tools' or something..." :eek:

Needless to say, I sold the gun to somebody else... :eek:

Kahr carrier
February 4, 2003, 07:51 AM
DELETE IT ,It ISNT WORTH YOUR TIME.:scrutiny:

Hemicuda
February 4, 2003, 12:32 PM
Do not walk, RUN away from this moron... you do not want/need the kinda trouble this moron could cause you...

Zundfolge
February 4, 2003, 02:50 PM
So let me get this straight, if someone contacts you and wants you to do something illegal, you have to report it or you could go to jail? What the heck?

In general you are not required to report crime. However I do believe if you have an FFL you are required to report when people try to buy or sell stuff illegaly.

I'm making the assumption that Meanoldfart has an FFL.

DonP
February 4, 2003, 03:04 PM
You could always blister pack a used Mauser '98 Timney trigger, a couple of nail files and a russian travel book and mail it to him for $200 as an AK full auto conversion kit.

Then you could find out if it was ATF trolling if they sued you for fraud instead of charging you with a felony violation.

Don P.

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