380acp penetration


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jimbo555
October 3, 2012, 08:50 AM
Just purchased a sig p238.What is the best penetrating jhp or is fmj the only acceptable choice for adequate penetration?

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plouffedaddy
October 3, 2012, 09:05 AM
For the JHPs, the XTP round is probably the best penetrator that will reliably expand. But, the 380 is a compromise and if you're looking for 14+'' of penetration FMJ may be the way to go.

I keep my 380s loaded with either Speer Gold Dots or Underwood Gold Dots FWIW.

Speer 90gr JHP Sim Test Media Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTuXpFChsA&feature=relmfu)

10.5'' through gel and 4 layers of denim.

kokapelli
October 3, 2012, 09:31 AM
I have done a lot of research on this and have ended up with WW white box fmj with a truncated bullet.

As for 380jhp expansion, most jhp rounds from the better ammo makers absolutely do expand and anyone that says they don't hasn't bothered to research the subject, but remember that expansion decreases penetration.

Here is a good source for 380jhp expansion tests.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP%20ammunition%20performance%20in%20ballistic%20gelatin.pdf

481
October 3, 2012, 10:55 AM
Just purchased a sig p238.What is the best penetrating jhp or is fmj the only acceptable choice for adequate penetration?

It all depends upon your needs.

If you must have a round that rises to the FBI specification for penetration of at least 12", then you're gonna want an FMJ because the vast majority of .380 JHPs won't make it past 10" - 11" if they expand.

The best compromise JHP is likely the XTP as suggested above by plouffedaddy.

Shawn Dodson
October 3, 2012, 10:57 AM
As for 380jhp expansion, most jhp rounds from the better ammo makers absolutely do expand and anyone that says they don't hasn't bothered to research the subject... It all depends on barrel length. .380 JHPs will reliably expand from my wife's Beretta 85, with it's 4" barrel. The SIG P238 has a 2.7" barrel and JHP expansion will probably not happen, especially when clothing is encountered.

WW white box (Q4206) is what I suggest.
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/primary/965/743821.jpg

Don't bother wasting money on Buffalo Bore's +P hard cast as the slightly higher velocity doesn't increase the wounding effects of a non-expanding bullet.

jimbo555
October 3, 2012, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the responses.I chose the sig238 to replace my walther tph22 as a backup and sometimes primary.The p238 has great sights and the sa trigger makes it much more accurate than other 380's I tried.I'm comfortable with cocked and locked carry.The diamondback 9mm I consider not yet proven based on my research.I have a ruger lc9 wich is reliable but I wanted a small pistol to backup my colt new agent 45.

kokapelli
October 3, 2012, 01:22 PM
It all depends on barrel length. .380 JHPs will reliably expand from my wife's Beretta 85, with it's 4" barrel. The SIG P238 has a 2.7" barrel and JHP expansion will probably not happen, especially when clothing is encountered.

This is what I mean about people not doing the research!

The Brassfetcher 380 gelatin tests were preformed using a Kel Tec P3AT which has a 2.7" barrel and again all of the jhp rounds did expand including the ones fired through heavy clothing into the gelatin block.

Just take a few seconds and go to the link in my previous post above.

Bozwell
October 3, 2012, 01:59 PM
In that limited testing on mostly bare gelatin they did expand. The more problematic data from that testing though is that none of the tested JHP's achieved even the minimum recommended penetration depth of 12". In my mind, 12" is a minimum, and if you can achieve that with reliable expansion, that's even better. But, without that minimum depth, expansion (or lack thereof) isn't really meaningful.

MedWheeler
October 3, 2012, 02:01 PM
When the Diamondback 9mm is $400..

Are they really that much...!? :what:
I carry a Kel-Tec PF9 most of the time, but carried a Bersa Thunder 380 for quite a while before (great gun, by the way; still have it.) It was usually loaded with Remington-UMC 95-grain FNEB loads, sort of a semi-jacketed, flat-tipped solid.
In my P32 Kel-Tec, I also opt for penetration over expansion, and carry either the Fiocchi FMJ (when I can find them), or the .32 version of the above-mentioned Winchester "fully-jacketed flat-tips."

zxcvbob
October 3, 2012, 02:04 PM
Those Winchester flat-nosed FMJ are what I carry if I'm carrying a short-barrel .380. I also bought a bag of Remington golden-something 102 grain JHP bullets to try reloading, but I haven't gotten around to that yet.

LeonCarr
October 3, 2012, 02:09 PM
Another vote for WWB FMJ in the .380.

Bare gelatin and bad guys walking around wearing clothing are two different things when you start comparing limited penetration, tiny hollow point cavities filling up with clothing and not expanding, and ball ammo not expanding but always penetrating a minimum of 12 inches.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

kokapelli
October 3, 2012, 02:12 PM
In that limited testing on mostly bare gelatin they did expand. The more problematic data from that testing though is that none of the tested JHP's achieved even the minimum recommended penetration depth of 12". In my mind, 12" is a minimum, and if you can achieve that with reliable expansion, that's even better. But, without that minimum depth, expansion (or lack thereof) isn't really meaningful.
Yes and that's why I choose to carry the Winchester fmj with truncated cone bullet or the Freedom Munitions 100gr truncated bullet round in my 380 pistols as well.

Phantom Captain
October 3, 2012, 03:03 PM
You guys should check out the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Flat Nose loads.

I think they are the perfect compromise between HP and FMJ loads and all I carry in an SD .380.

My PPK/s eats them up no problem.

kokapelli
October 3, 2012, 03:53 PM
You guys should check out the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Flat Nose loads.

I think they are the perfect compromise between HP and FMJ loads and all I carry in an SD .380.

My PPK/s eats them up no problem.
How are they a compromise between jhp and fmj?
They are a hot truncated bullet round that will give deep penetration at an expensive price And so will Winchester's truncated round at a much lower price as will Freedom Munitions truncated 100gr fmj at an even lower price.

In every gelatin test of the Winchester truncated 380 round I have seen penetration was at least 18" and anything over that is just over penetration.

HOWARD J
October 3, 2012, 04:59 PM
I picked up P-238 & a P3AT----never got much chance to use for carry as my daughter got one & my youngest son got the other
So, I went back to my faithful Walther PPK-380
Can't win them all

Robert101
October 3, 2012, 07:11 PM
I don't have an issue with FMJ in 380 as I like the added feeding reliability of the FMJ and maximum penetration for this lighter round. I won't argue for the HP design as I want that bullet to go as deep as possible and through barriers if needed. The FMJ is the best candidate in 380 for me.

Some commentary for a moment, I think the 380 is adequate for SD. I think we get too engrossed into that laser one shoot drop against a mountain of 350 lb specimen story that occurs once every 10 years. I've got some big hand guns but I still legally carry the 380 and feel confident with it.

zxcvbob
October 3, 2012, 07:46 PM
In every gelatin test of the Winchester truncated 380 round I have seen penetration was at least 18" and anything over that is just over penetration.

I generally agree with you, but anything over 18" is also a little extra margin if you hit a bone or a belt buckle or something.

Bozwell
October 3, 2012, 09:37 PM
I have researched it for decades, and I am not trying to sell you anything. :-) the makers are lying, and jello is not flesh and blood, either. I don't want anything to do with a round that penetrates more than 10" of flesh. If it does, it is almost certain to waste too much precious energy on overpenetration of the man. The heart is just 3" deep from the front, the lung just 2", or a bit less. From the side, one lung is less than 2" deep, the heart at most 8", on a very, very big man. If you do hit the arm first, you can't blame the bullet for your failure to hit the intended mark.
Sorry, I have to call you on this. What bullets are experts "trying to sell you" when they recommend 12-18" of penetration? Is the FBI selling bullets these days? What research can you actually support that says 12" is too much penetration? You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical, but a random guy on the internet who proclaims he's researched a subject for decades and then proceeds to contract nearly every expert in the field tends to raise an eyebrow or two.

Tedzilla
October 3, 2012, 11:45 PM
18" penetration!?! What are you shooting... Hippos?!?
I'm 6'2" 200lbs center mass on me is 16" wide and less than 10" deep. Clothing isn't that tough and you've got at least 7 or 8 chances with a normal .380.

481
October 3, 2012, 11:54 PM
The heart is just 3" deep from the front, the lung just 2", or a bit less. From the side, one lung is less than 2" deep, the heart at most 8", on a very, very big man.

If you can guarantee those specific angles will be unobstructed. That's an awfully big "if". During a gunfight, we have precious little control over such things and we often must take what we are given in the way of such options.

If you do hit the arm first, you can't blame the bullet for your failure to hit the intended mark.

Again, you can't guarantee that your intended mark isn't obstructed by that arm in the first place. During a gunfight, our "intended mark" may be blocked by an act or circumstances outside of our control and we may not have the time to wait for it to be removed, hence the need for ammunition that doesn't just barely meet the minimum penetration requirement.

exavid
October 4, 2012, 12:00 AM
I routinely carry either my LCP or LC9 depending on circumstances. I've tried several different loads for both. For range practice which I do weekly I use my handloads but for defense I've settled on Critical Defense for both the 9mm and the .380. Take a look at this YouTube video on penetration, the little .380 is more potent than you might think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H9M6cZGd18&feature=related

481
October 4, 2012, 12:01 AM
18" penetration!?! What are you shooting... Hippos?!?

In addition to the dimensional increases that accompany the increase in we see in obesity, we cannot be guaranteed of a perfectly static and unobstructed target. I'd rather have a little extra penetration as opposed to not enough.

I'm 6'2" 200lbs center mass on me is 16" wide and less than 10" deep. Clothing isn't that tough and you've got at least 7 or 8 chances with a normal .380.

Not everyone is built like you. Given the trend towards larger folks these days (not just overweight, but very muscular), the dimensions you describe may be on the "shallow side" for others. No such thing as identical targets.

Tedzilla
October 4, 2012, 12:31 AM
You know there are no guarantees in life and if you obsess over every possibility you're going to end up not only wearing a belt and suspenders but Super Gluing your underwear on in case of tornadoes.
I live in the real world where the .22 LR has killed more folks than any other round. There's a high enough chance that I can persuade an attacker to stop or flee with 7 rounds of .380 that I don't feel under-gunned.

481
October 4, 2012, 01:04 AM
You know there are no guarantees in life and if you obsess over every possibility you're going to end up not only wearing a belt and suspenders but Super Gluing your underwear on in case of tornadoes.


I was never under that impression. On the other hand, I would be a fool not to choose the best possible option for such a diminuitive caliber. In the case of the .380, that's an FMJ.

I live in the real world where the .22 LR has killed more folks than any other round. There's a high enough chance that I can persuade an attacker to stop or flee with 7 rounds of .380 that I don't feel under-gunned.

Hey, if you are happy with a .22, that's fine with me. I'd rather carry as much gun as I possibly can.

biohazurd
October 4, 2012, 03:13 AM
I carry fmj in all of my sub caliber carry handguns. I just dont trust the penetration of most hps. Just my opinion.

OldMac
October 4, 2012, 04:21 AM
I normally carry remington golden sabres in the faster calibers but have found that the 380 version out of my lcp doesnt expand. I think velocity is the key since the GS bullet looks identical. I formed my opinion solely from my research and my guns YMMV. However, The Hornady Critical defense with the little red eraser in the tip seems to open up with cute little textbook petals every time. I used to think it was marketing hype but my personal results have been consistant.

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 10:02 AM
18" penetration!?! What are you shooting... Hippos?!?
I'm 6'2" 200lbs center mass on me is 16" wide and less than 10" deep. Clothing isn't that tough and you've got at least 7 or 8 chances with a normal .380.
This is my favorite picture when it comes to explaining why 10" of penetration may easily not be enough.

Think about what you may have to shoot through to reach vitals, like shoulders and arms.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/images/armobstacles.jpg

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 12:35 PM
Shawn, post #6, that looks like a sweet little number.

Hey you guys, I was with a bud yesterday buying ammo and pretty much said for him to buy some Magtech 95gr jhps, $20 for 50. He bought four boxes .. instead of the way more expensive fancy rounds. Any word on these?
He also bought 500 rounds of plinkin hardball too.
Here's a pic of that slug..

http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/_med/MGBU380B1_med.jpg

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 01:41 PM
Shawn, post #6, that looks like a sweet little number.

Hey you guys, I was with a bud yesterday buying ammo and pretty much said for him to buy some Magtech 95gr jhps, $20 for 50. He bought four boxes .. instead of the way more expensive fancy rounds. Any word on these?
He also bought 500 rounds of plinkin hardball too.
Here's a pic of that slug..

http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/_med/MGBU380B1_med.jpg
Yes in every gelatin test I've seen on Magtech ammo expansion was very poor if at all.

Here for example is one of those gelatin tests…..

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 02:24 PM
Yes in every gelatin test I've seen on Magtech ammo expansion was very poor if at all.

Here for example is one of those gelatin tests…..

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm
I hear you. That supplied link is odd. Many cartridges are pictured with no data/input/remark as if they were not tested. Nor is that particular cartridge represented. Thanks anyway.
He's got plenty of fancy ammo stoked anyways, way better than him not even having a pocket knife from a few months ago.

JERRY
October 4, 2012, 02:46 PM
see post #29.

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 04:01 PM
see post #29.
Why? The thread is in a time linear fashion so one would have logically aready seen it. Are you trying to actually say something that we should know?

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 04:11 PM
Personally, when I carry a .380, it's loaded with handloads comprised of the Lee 105 grain SWC loaded heavy. Oh, was that an elbow? pardon me

it's like five cents a round

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=i.4706593419165784&pid=1.7&w=118&h=123&c=7&rs=1

JERRY
October 4, 2012, 04:48 PM
Why? The thread is in a time linear fashion so one would have logically aready seen it. Are you trying to actually say something that we should know?

not everybody reads every post, many are filled with dribble (see post #34).:neener:

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 05:17 PM
See post 380

Esoxchaser
October 4, 2012, 05:28 PM
The SIG P238 has a 2.7" barrel and JHP expansion will probably not happen, especially when clothing is encountered.

Try your own tests with Hornady Critical defense in .380. You will start to think differently about the lowly .380.

jimbo555
October 4, 2012, 05:35 PM
kokapelli,any feeding issues with the winchester flat tip in your p238?

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 06:00 PM
kokapelli,any feeding issues with the winchester flat tip in your p238?
No problems at all. Actually the only ammo that doesn't feed reliably in my P238 is some Herters ammo I purchased when 380 was in short supply and that ammo won't even feed reliably in my Bersa.

jimbo555
October 4, 2012, 06:11 PM
It looks like the speer golddot jhp pennetrated just over 12 inches and expanded to .45,seems like the best of the hollow points in that test.

Farmdale
October 4, 2012, 07:29 PM
In my wife's Sig 238 I put critical defense for summer use, and critical duty for winter user because of the thicker clothing in the winter....

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 08:53 PM
to levels far beyond anything that any ammomaker is going to sell commercialy, and it's still not equal to the feeblest 9mm load available.
I think your over estimating the difference in 380 and 9mm when fired from sub 3" barrels.

If you do some research you will find that 9mm shot from a 2.7" barrel is barely faster than Buffalo Bore 380.

Of course it's a whole different story with longer barreled guns.

Matter of fact comparing Buffalo Bore 380 to Federal 9mm 105gr Guard Dog which is what Jeff Quinn recommends for Rohrbaugh R9, the Buffalo Bore 380 is actually faster out of a P3AT than the Federal 9mm is out of the Rohrgough.

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 09:07 PM
^
Why not do apples to apples and shoot the BB in 9mm also? They make those too you know..
not to mention in the +P flavors to boot.

jackblack86
October 4, 2012, 09:27 PM
that ammo won't even feed reliably in my Bersa
I thought bersa ate everthing

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 09:27 PM
^
Why not do apples to apples and shoot the BB in 9mm also? They make those too you know..
not to mention in the +P flavors to boot.
Because Rohrbough says no +P.

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 09:56 PM
BB makes non +P 9 and who cares about one a those pistols anyway

kokapelli
October 4, 2012, 09:57 PM
I thought bersa ate everthing
It's the first and only ammo that did not feed in the Bersa or the P238.

481
October 4, 2012, 11:35 PM
if you hit the arm with a decent load, that arm's disabled, dudes.

What about the other arm? :eek:

Certaindeaf
October 5, 2012, 12:10 AM
What about the other arm? :eek:
You might have to ram another ball down the pipe. lolz

Shawn Dodson
October 5, 2012, 01:56 PM
This is what I mean about people not doing the research!

The Brassfetcher 380 gelatin tests were preformed using a Kel Tec P3AT which has a 2.7" barrel and again all of the jhp rounds did expand including the ones fired through heavy clothing into the gelatin block.

Just take a few seconds and go to the link in my previous post above.

I looked at the brassfetcher data. There is only one JHP tested against unspecified, non-standard "summer clothing". The gold standard for testing JHP expansion reliability is four layers of heavy denim cloth.

Shawn Dodson
October 5, 2012, 02:06 PM
if you hit the arm with a decent load, that arm's disabled, dudes. During the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, Michael Platt was hit in both arms. He went on to kill two FBI agents afterward.

The FBI agent, Ed Mireles, who shot and finally stopped both Michael Platt and William Matix was himself shot in the forearm by a .223 bullet at the beginning of the gunfight.

NG VI
October 5, 2012, 02:13 PM
I think your over estimating the difference in 380 and 9mm when fired from sub 3" barrels.

If you do some research you will find that 9mm shot from a 2.7" barrel is barely faster than Buffalo Bore 380.

Of course it's a whole different story with longer barreled guns.

Matter of fact comparing Buffalo Bore 380 to Federal 9mm 105gr Guard Dog which is what Jeff Quinn recommends for Rohrbaugh R9, the Buffalo Bore 380 is actually faster out of a P3AT than the Federal 9mm is out of the Rohrgough.

Maybe not that much faster, but with a significantly heavier bullet, which is a pretty big bonus.

And Federal's Personal Defense line as a whole seems to be based around lighter than normal bullets loaded to velocities that would be considered light for a heavier bullet in the same caliber. Maybe a great choice for a Rorbaugh, but there are plenty of 3" 9mm pistols that can easily handle a regular load.

PaulKersey3
October 27, 2012, 04:31 PM
FMJ for .380, it works

481
October 27, 2012, 04:59 PM
FMJ for .380, it works


It sure does. :)

kokapelli
October 27, 2012, 05:05 PM
How do you know, have you shot someone with it?

PaulKersey3
October 27, 2012, 08:14 PM
We don't do those kind of "I shot someone" armchair commando discussions on here. Want proof .380 FMJ works? See Gandhi, or Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife.

kokapelli
October 27, 2012, 08:37 PM
We don't do those kind of "I shot someone" armchair commando discussions on here. Want proof .380 FMJ works? See Gandhi, or Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife.
I'm not saying it doesn't work and as a matter of fact I carry WWB truncated fmj in my P238 daily carry, but I have always wondered when someone says it works, or it will get the job done, or it works for me, is that from personal experience or just an opinion?

I carry WWB fmj Tc because I have done a lot of research on the subject and believe it's the right ammo for my siduation, but I have never said it works or will get the job done because I have never had to use it and can't say with any authority that it will get the job done, so when somebody says it works, how do they know it works? Just curiosity on my part.

ozo
October 27, 2012, 08:49 PM
"WW white box (Q4206) is what I suggest."

I will agree with Mr Dodson
any barrel 2" to 4"
and they feed well.
NO HP's for me in a .380

Weevil
October 27, 2012, 10:33 PM
Got my Makarov .380 sitting here next to me on the computer stand loaded up with WWB truncated ammo.

Feeds great, I know this because it's cheap enough to actually shoot a whole lot of rounds, and I feel much more confident it will get decent penetration regardless of the angle of my shot or any barriers like clothing or arms and hands.


I'm not gonna count on the badguy standing there like a deer in the headlights with his arms at his side, while I carefully aim and squeeze off a perfect frontal shot.

HPs are just too iffy in a .380 for me to trust them.

David White
October 28, 2012, 01:47 PM
You guys DO know that the FBI minimum penetration depth is AFTER barrier penetration. The FBI requested a minimum depth of 12 inches AFTER wallboard, sheetrock, plywood, sheet metal and laminated auto glass.
Never mind just "simple" penetration depth of "just" 12 inches.
Seems to me that is a tad excessive for your average civilian shooting scenario. That is unless you need a bullet to shoot people in cars with..
What is this obsession with the FBI requirement? I'm a big guy but I am not 14 to 18 inches thick, from any angle! I am also not made of K&K 250 ballistic gel. I have two huge organs called "lungs" that are empty and void of liquid.
I know... I know. We all want the terminal ballistics that the cops get. After all... If its good for them, it should be good enough for us! Don't sweat the little stuff. Unless your facing a deranged killer, hell bent on taking your life, most people tend to stop aggression after the first shot or two.
Carry your micro gun loaded with the nuclear tipped bullets and have at it!

PaulKersey3
October 28, 2012, 05:39 PM
In a good majority of .380 FMJ GSW's there will be over penetration (thru-n-thru)of a human target. Exponentially more with 9mm parabellum. We must remind the crows of .380 HP that two holes can oftentimes be much worse than one. Gandhi was shot with .380 fmj and had multiple thru-n-thrus. Ferdinand was hit by a .380 round, (FMJ steel core) which passed thru him and killed his wife. Browning and his contemporaries made ammo and weapons that were for the purpose of war. They did what they were supposed to do in countless wars on all sides, and all with FMJ.

Weevil
October 28, 2012, 05:51 PM
Well don't forget you've got a ribcage made of bone around those "lungs".


I'll take that penetration over whatever energy dump or some increaeed psychological effects you might get from an expanding HP in a .380.

In a bigger more powerful caliber where a large percentage of the bullets energy is wasted when an FMJ blows right through then yeah an Hp makes sense.

But even with an FMJ a .380 isn't getting great penertration.

You gotta remember the FBI testing is through Ballistic Gel, these figures don't translate into the exact penetration you're gonna get through actual flesh and bone. It's simply a cailbrated medium for testing and comparing various bullet designs.

fatcpa
October 30, 2012, 12:25 PM
In my Sig P238 I load the mag with Buffalo Bore, alternating 100 gr lead flat point and 90 gr jhp's, the the lead bullet as the first round.

ku4hx
October 30, 2012, 12:39 PM
Several interesting gelatin tests here: http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/380ACP.htm

Summary info shows a couple of FMJ types penetration over 20". Not human body equivalent, but gelatin does at least allow for calibrated penetration and expansion testing.

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 01:05 PM
In my Sig P238 I load the mag with Buffalo Bore, alternating 100 gr lead flat point and 90 gr jhp's, the the lead bullet as the first round.
Which BB load do you carry and what do you think it does better than other ammo?

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 01:05 PM
The Buffalo Bore 100 grain flat point'll do about 32" through gelatin.

I've never shot my loads (post #33) through gelatin but they're pretty hot.

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 01:08 PM
The Buffalo Bore 100 grain flat point'll do about 32" through gelatin.

I've never shot my loads (post #33) through gelatin but they're pretty hot.
Ok, but since the WWB truncated round penetrates over 20" of ballistic gelatin, what real benefit do you think you get from BB over WWB at a fraction of the cost of the BB load?

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 01:10 PM
A third more penetration?

C0untZer0
October 30, 2012, 01:21 PM
There used to be a heavier loading for the Federal Gaurd Dog which had decent perfromance in gel, but the 105gr IMO is so similar to a 380 ACP that it takes the advantage of shooting a 9mm away. If you're going to load your Berreta Nano or Glock 26 with 105gr Federal Gaurd Dog, you'd get the same performance out of a much smaller and lighter, more concealable 380 ACP handgun.

I've read on The Rohrbaugh forum that Carl Rohrbaugh recomends the Federal Gaurd Dog. Maybe Jeff Quinn got that from Carl.


There are plenty of people on the Rohrbaugh forum who say their R9 cycles 124gr Gold Dots just fine, and a few people who shoot 147gr 9mm from their R9s and don't have problems.

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 01:22 PM
A third more penetration?
What are you shooting, elephants?

481
October 30, 2012, 01:30 PM
The Buffalo Bore 100 grain flat point'll do about 32" through gelatin.

I've never shot my loads (post #33) through gelatin but they're pretty hot.
CD,

Where'd that penetration data come from? Did BB provide test results?

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 01:35 PM
CD,

Where'd that penetration data come from? Did BB provide test results?
It's all over the net. Here's a random one..

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/21889/380-acp-p-buffalo-bore-100-grain-hard-cast/

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 01:52 PM
What in the world would you want 32" of penetration for in a self defense pistol?

A lot of people are concerned about 20" of penetration being too much.

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 01:57 PM
What in the world would you want 32" of penetration for in a self defense pistol?.
Maybe for those pesky armbones and shoulders you seemed so concerned about in post #27.

481
October 30, 2012, 02:05 PM
It's all over the net. Here's a random one..

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/21889/380-acp-p-buffalo-bore-100-grain-hard-cast/
Thanks, CD.

jimbo555
October 30, 2012, 02:42 PM
I tested the winchester truncated fmj in my sig p238 and found it reliable,it's what I carry now till I do some more research on the speer gold dots.Thank you all for the replies.

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 03:15 PM
Maybe for those pesky armbones and shoulders you seemed so concerned about in post #27.
So then you think 20" plus is not enough?

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 07:26 PM
So then you think 20" plus is not enough?
Well, you never know, do you?

Like you said, sometimes there's a bone to get through and some people are just plain monster sized.

kokapelli
October 30, 2012, 07:44 PM
Well, you never know, do you?

Like you said, sometimes there's a bone to get through and some people are just plain monster sized.
Ok,but I would like to point out that Buffalo Bore 380 HC is about $1.20 + shipping per cartridge, verses WWB with truncated bullet for .32 cents per round and a lot of people think the WWB round has too much penetration.

Whatever floats your boat.

Weevil
October 30, 2012, 07:57 PM
20" through gel with a .380 should still translate into some decent penetration through skin, bones, arms and hands, muscle, leather jackets, etc.... in the real world even at odd angles.

18 inches through gel is generally considered optimum for HPs in the larger service calibers like 9mm, .40, and .45.

Certaindeaf
October 30, 2012, 08:13 PM
Ok,but I would like to point out that Buffalo Bore 380 HC is about $1.20 + shipping per cartridge, verses WWB with truncated bullet for .32 cents per round and a lot of people think the WWB round has too much penetration.

Whatever floats your boat.
Yea, I hear you. That's why I load essentially an equivalent of BB for about a nickel a pop.

Gary A
December 1, 2012, 11:38 AM
What I am about to say is purely supposition but I believe it is a reasonable supposition. For many years .380 (and .32) was a very popular civilian self defense caliber and even police caliber in Europe and other overseas locations. During many or most of these years, hollowpoints were either non-existent or very rare and typically did not feed well in most semi autos. I believe .380 was popular in civilian settings because .380 fmj penetrated enough but not too much and if it over-penetrated, most of its energy was spent. 9mm fmj, on the other hand, clearly was over-penetrative and still carried lethal energy after doing so which made it suitable for military use but not in a crowded civilian setting. I believe the same physics apply today and agree with those posters who recommend a truncated cone fmj in .380. I also agree that most, if not all .380 hollowpoint ammo and pistol combinations are unable to provide both adequate expansion and penetration. .380 can provide one or the other but seldom both. JMO.

exavid
December 1, 2012, 04:29 PM
To me the higher price of ammo such as Hornady Critical Defense isn't worth considering since I use that ammo for carry and my handloads for range practice. One thing I like about them is that they are cannelured so are much likely to have bullet setback due to recoil or feed ramp while in the magazine. I've seen some smiley's on bullets in my LCP, not deep ones but definitely some contact with the bottom end of the feed ramp while in the magazine. It's never caused a problem though set back is a possible cause of overpressure. With the cannelured rounds you can tell at a glance if the bullet(s) in the magazine have been set back. I think a lot of set back in .380s is due to the thin shell mouth not providing a strong enough crimp, especially on used brass in hand loading.
Here's an interesting posting on the matter. It's written concerning the Keltec but the LCP is very similar and does show smileys in some guns.
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/smiley.htm

MICHAEL T
December 1, 2012, 06:11 PM
I carry Corbon DPX in all of my 380's. Majority of BG's run at sight of pistol . If shooting starts their really trying to get out. Their looking for easy target. Not a firefight.
Look at all the video's of robberys. Where clerk is armed Their trying to get out the door . Look at the 2 in Fl The old man with the 380 in the computer cafe. He started firing BG falling over each other trying to get out door. Security guard drawing and firing again the BG's trying to get back out.
I keep my DPX Demin doesn't bother it and it expans . If goes 10 inches Iam happy Also I never seen any BG in robbery films doing that 2 handed type hold in the picture .

C0untZer0
December 1, 2012, 07:44 PM
^ BG#1 in Florida Internet casino had a non-functioning pistol, BG#2 had a baseball bat, so yes they were making tracks - but this is anecdotal.

You can't base your bullet selection on some statistical data of the behavior of felons.

For these 380s that are penetrating 16"+

I wonder how many of those bullets have the energy to actualy break out of the back of an assailant's body. I kind of think that regardless of what they're doing in gel, in actual shootings I think they probably recover those bullets embedded in the back ribcage - or maybe just under the skin on the back. Just a hunch...

kokapelli
December 1, 2012, 08:24 PM
Awhile back a guy committed suicide in my area while in his car and he shot himself through his heart with a 380.

The bullet went clean through his body, through the back of his seat and through the back of the rear seat of his car and was recovered in the trunk.

The article included the brand of pistol, but I don't remember what it was, but the type of ammo was not mentioned.

Cokeman
December 3, 2012, 03:22 AM
What brand?

Odd Job
December 3, 2012, 05:31 AM
I've tried the P3AT and the 238 and if it was up to me I would pick the 238 and use FMJ.
Not sure whether I would use the truncated cone or the standard round nose, that would depend on reliability testing (I would favour the truncated cone if it is reliable as folks indicate in this thread).

Regarding penetration, the little .380 does just fine in FMJ. One of my research cases involved a woman who was shot with her arms raised up in a defensive posture by a bad guy. The bullet hit her hand at the base of the fifth proximal phalanx in the web and caused multiple fractures:

1) Fifth proximal phalanx
2) Fifth metacarpal
3) Fourth metacarpal
4) Hamate
5) Distal ulna
6) Radial head

The bullet ended up posterior to the distal humerus. Here is one possible trajectory (other arm shown down for clarity):

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/13.jpg

kokapelli
December 3, 2012, 07:54 AM
What brand?
Brand or bullet type wasn't mentioned in the report.

481
December 3, 2012, 12:34 PM
I've tried the P3AT and the 238 and if it was up to me I would pick the 238 and use FMJ.
Not sure whether I would use the truncated cone or the standard round nose, that would depend on reliability testing (I would favour the truncated cone if it is reliable as folks indicate in this thread).

Regarding penetration, the little .380 does just fine in FMJ. One of my research cases involved a woman who was shot with her arms raised up in a defensive posture by a bad guy. The bullet hit her hand at the base of the fifth proximal phalanx in the web and caused multiple fractures:

1) Fifth proximal phalanx
2) Fifth metacarpal
3) Fourth metacarpal
4) Hamate
5) Distal ulna
6) Radial head

The bullet ended up posterior to the distal humerus. Here is one possible trajectory (other arm shown down for clarity):

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/13.jpg


As always an excellent post, Odd Job.

Your preference for the FMJTCs is well taken. Truncated cone FMJs offer slightly greater penetration than round nose FMJs when weight and velocity are held constant.

For example, according to the Schwartz bullet penetration model, a .380 95 gr FMJTC @ 900fps will produce 19.41 inches of soft tissue penetration whereas a .380 95 gr FMJRN @ 900fps will produce 18.68 inches of soft tissue penetration- the difference being about 0.73 inches or 3.9% more penetration.

The meplat on the FMJTC will also tend to cause the FMJTC to track straighter than the FMJRN which may yaw during penetration reducing penetration depth further.

3twelves
December 3, 2012, 05:12 PM
Being that there are plenty of small 9mm pistols out the same size as a .380 and cost the same (ammo/gun), .380 pistols and ammo are obsolete.

Gary A
December 3, 2012, 05:47 PM
Being that there are plenty of small 9mm pistols out the same size as a .380 and cost the same (ammo/gun), .380 pistols and ammo are obsolete.
I think that's absurd. It's like saying that because there are plenty of small .357 revolvers out there the same size as a .38 and cost the same, .38 Special revolvers and ammo are obsolete.

3twelves
December 3, 2012, 05:55 PM
I think that's absurd. It's like saying that because there are plenty of small .357 revolvers out there the same size as a .38 and cost the same, .38 Special revolvers and ammo are obsolete.
Can you shoot .380 in a 9mm? No
.38 spl costs less and can be shot out of a .357 so that makes it useful.


Would rather use a .38spl+p for SD than a .380

kokapelli
December 3, 2012, 06:02 PM
Being that there are plenty of small 9mm pistols out the same size as a .380 and cost the same (ammo/gun), .380 pistols and ammo are obsolete.
My son who had a P238 purchased a P938 a few weeks ago also and they are almost identical accept the 938 is slightly larger.

After shooting the P938 I can tell you there is a very significant difference in recoil and it is enough for me to to not want to upgrade from my P238 to the 9mm P938.

I'm not sure what you mean about 380 ammo being obsolete?

3twelves
December 3, 2012, 06:07 PM
I would rather have a little more recoil than an inferior cartridge.

kokapelli
December 3, 2012, 06:32 PM
I would rather have a little more recoil than an inferior cartridge.
And I would rather have a gun I can shoot better. To each his own.

WYO
December 3, 2012, 08:28 PM
I ditched my P238 as soon as I declared my P938 reliable. They both shoot great, although follow-up shots are slightly slower with the P938. But, an extra 100 fps with a hollow point bullet weighing 29 grains more is worth the trade off in split times to me.

Gary A
December 3, 2012, 11:01 PM
.38 spl costs less and can be shot out of a .357 so that makes it useful.
That's a good point, 3twelves, but I still believe it is all about different options for different people and needs and small 9mm pistols do not obsolete small .380 pistols IMO. It's all about options.

Cokeman
December 3, 2012, 11:41 PM
Brand or bullet type wasn't mentioned in the report.

Pistol. You said the pistol type was mentioned.

Cokeman
December 3, 2012, 11:46 PM
Being that there are plenty of small 9mm pistols out the same size as a .380 and cost the same (ammo/gun), .380 pistols and ammo are obsolete.

Tell me about the plenty of 9mm pistols that are the same size as my P380. I can think of one that comes close and I can't cough up the $1000+ for it.

3twelves
December 4, 2012, 12:21 AM
The 4 in the middle, little bigger.

http://i45.tinypic.com/4qg8jk.jpg

Cokeman
December 4, 2012, 12:24 AM
A little bigger is not the same. It might be to you but it's not to me.

3twelves
December 4, 2012, 12:28 AM
Carried a PF9 in a IWB holster for 2 years with t shirt and shorts, no issues.

kokapelli
December 4, 2012, 07:43 AM
Pistol. You said the pistol type was mentioned.
And I also said the type of ammo was not mentioned!

481
December 4, 2012, 10:38 AM
That's a good point, 3twelves, but I still believe it is all about different options for different people and needs and small 9mm pistols do not obsolete small .380 pistols IMO. It's all about options.

You're right.

There are folks who, due to issues like arthritis, chronic conditions and reduced muscle strength, cannot use a caliber that recoils more than the .380. It is hard to understand 'til you get there or have a loved one that faces such challenges -like your 71 yr old mom- that they have all they can do to handle a pipsqeak cartridge like the .380.

Gary A
December 4, 2012, 10:51 AM
A little bigger is not the same. It might be to you but it's not to me.

Which is why having options is not only a good thing from a utilitarian perspective, but also from a marketing one. Options allow 3twelve to choose what works for him and others to do the same.

kokapelli
December 4, 2012, 11:01 AM
I think the point of the OP in this thread has been lost.:scrutiny:

3twelves
December 4, 2012, 04:52 PM
back on track

http://103.imagebam.com/download/d3YZQpYhQphS9Pjr9QqgwQ/22406/224059442/.380%20vs%209mm.jpg


No thanks

kokapelli
December 4, 2012, 04:58 PM
And it is still off track since the OP was about 380 penetration, not 380 to 9mm comparison.

3twelves
December 4, 2012, 05:36 PM
Well it shows that the .380 gives inadequate penetration.

kokapelli
December 4, 2012, 05:53 PM
Well it shows that the .380 gives inadequate penetration.
Not really, what it shows is fmj is the way to go in 380.

3twelves
December 4, 2012, 06:15 PM
rofl

Gary A
December 4, 2012, 10:20 PM
3twelves - people have been polite. Please, if you have nothing to contribute to the OP's original question, why insist on trying to prove yourself correct? Clearly this subject is of no interest to you, so why continue to participate? You joined this forum only one month ago. Why not try to take the high road and participate with courtesy in the spirit of the forum? No offense meant and I welcome you to the High Road but please try to stay on topic.

Cokeman
December 5, 2012, 12:15 AM
And I also said the type of ammo was not mentioned!

Yeah. I can read. I never asked about the ammo. I asked about the pistol. You said that they told you what the pistol was. What was it?

481
December 5, 2012, 12:40 AM
Not really, what it shows is fmj is the way to go in 380.

Corollary to that, the illustration also shows that a .380 JHP that expands to any great degree will suffer greatly diminished penetration.

Any JHP that struggles to make 8 inches of penetration does not exactly inspire confidence in its use in any but the most static and unobstructed frontal target presentation.

kokapelli
December 5, 2012, 08:10 AM
Yeah. I can read. I never asked about the ammo. I asked about the pistol. You said that they told you what the pistol was. What was it?
Don't remember for sure but I do remember it wasn't a pocket pistol.

Cokeman
December 5, 2012, 11:46 PM
Thanks.

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