[The Smitty]

Hello everyone just joined the forum so please let me know if I'm doing something completely wrong. I am a teenager who enjoys going back packing in the Rockies 1 to 2 times a year. The last few times I have went we hiked in with pepper spray as our primary defense against bears, neither me or my dad or the small group I go with really think that is an adequate defense against bears. I have been given the task of finding a good firearm to bring. The requirements, though pretty vague, are:
1. Preferably semi auto

2. Preferably +10 rounds in the mag

3. Light weight

4. Not overly expensive to plink with (since I only go backpacking max 2 times a year)

5. Full size pistol (most likely be carried in a drop leg or any OSTWB holster)

6. Be able to stop a brown bear (doesn't need to atomize the bear with one shot but be able to stop it a safe manner)


And by the way an suggestion is a good it could meet all six requirements or meet none. I would just like some opinions from people more knowledge than me on this subject.
Thanks in advance


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

[sub-moa]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/sub-moa/TW3_254.jpg

:scrutiny::evil:

[tmoore912]

I know plenty of people that live in and hike in bear country. Most of them that carry automatics carry a Glock 20 or 29 in 10mm. A holster that I would recommend is the Diamond D. Custom Holsters (http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php) or a Survival Sheath Systems Chest Holster (http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm) The chest holsters work well with backpacks.

[22-rimfire]

I would keep the bear spray and have the handgun as a backup.

I don't think there is a single handgun that you can easily carry that will provide the protection you seek. As was mentioned, most choose the 10mm in a semi-auto. But they really aren't for plinking. None of the big calibers are plinkers unless you reload or have deep pockets.

I prefer a revolver. But that is me. I would probably choose one of my 41 mags knowing full well if a brown bear wanted to eat me for dinner and surpised me, I'll probably be dinner. You choose a solid bullet that is deep penetrating and practice as much as you can or can afford. From there, apply some common sense and you are in God's hands. It is not practical to prepare for every emergency.

[Certaindeaf]

I'm a .25acp man too. They rock!

[jhco]

Beat me to it, I would also go with a glock in 10mm maybe with some 220g Buffalo bore

[Flyincedar]

Coonan :)

[icanthitabarn]

That bear must have died of old age after smirking at that .25, some years earlier.

[Inebriated]

Glock 20, LWD extended barrel, and some Buffalo Bore 220grn Hard Cast loads.

To plink, you can get a LWD 10-.40 S&W conversion barrel, and avoid 10mm prices.

[Alaska444]

Hello everyone just joined the forum so please let me know if I'm doing something completely wrong. I am a teenager who enjoys going back packing in the Rockies 1 to 2 times a year. The last few times I have went we hiked in with pepper spray as our primary defense against bears, neither me or my dad or the small group I go with really think that is an adequate defense against bears. I have been given the task of finding a good firearm to bring. The requirements, though pretty vague, are:
1. Preferably semi auto

2. Preferably +10 rounds in the mag

3. Light weight

4. Not overly expensive to plink with (since I only go backpacking max 2 times a year)

5. Full size pistol (most likely be carried in a drop leg or any OSTWB holster)

6. Be able to stop a brown bear (doesn't need to atomize the bear with one shot but be able to stop it a safe manner)


And by the way an suggestion is a good it could meet all six requirements or meet none. I would just like some opinions from people more knowledge than me on this subject.
Thanks in advance


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
Great questions.

For griz, NO handgun is truly adequate, but lots of folks have been fortunate to save their lives with one that has enough power to penetrate. For brown bear, many folks start with .44 magnum and go up from there. I am in that club and carry my Ruger SRH here in griz country in northern Idaho.

I would suggest MORE than one person carrying adequate weapons. I prefer revolvers for bear protection, but certainly the 10 mm SA has its place. It is however on the same par as a .357. For black bear, it will suffice, but if you really are in griz country, it is very light.

Most bear defense experts start at 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Not too many hand guns fall into that range.

A combination of bear spray carried by all members of the group as well as handgun as a minimum for each member of the party is the best way to go. There is also safety in numbers to avoid bear attacks and then proper camp cleanup and never bringing food into or near the tents/camping area. Lots of folks have separate food preparation and eating areas from the sleeping areas.

[hso]

There's nothing that meets all your criteria because some of the criteria are contradictory.

No inexpensive plinker will be suitable for a grizzly bear. You'll need to shoot 10mm or .44 mag or greater energy to be of any utility for a grizzly. Discard the "bear gun" idea and you have a chance of meeting the other criteria. Keep it and you'll need to discard most of the others. Your betting your life on the weapon, better have one that will do the most important job you're expecting of it.

Bears are just dangerous animals with habits and behaviors that you can learn so that you can adapt your behavior to avoid dangerous encounters with them. They're not monsters that you need to have an irrational fear of unless you refuse to learn how to prevent running afoul of them. Knowledge of them is vital. Backing that knowledge up with bear spray is a prudent decision. If you're going to be out hunting where the "don't smell like dinner" rule has to be broken while you dress out a kill and pack it out, it can make sense to add a firearm, but then you're already carrying one so it becomes questionable why you'd ignore a big game rifle or shotgun for a big bore pistol.

[Furncliff]

I live in bear country. Hiking with a handgun capable of defense against bears means a heavy revolver. Stick with the bear mace and count yourself privileged if you see one. Grizzly...? You'll need more than a pistol.

[Alaska444]

There's nothing that meets all your criteria because some of the criteria are contradictory.

No inexpensive plinker will be suitable for a grizzly bear. You'll need to shoot 10mm or .44 mag or greater energy to be of any utility for a grizzly. Discard the "bear gun" idea and you have a chance of meeting the other criteria. Keep it and you'll need to discard most of the others. Your betting your life on the weapon, better have one that will do the most important job you're expecting of it.

Bears are just dangerous animals with habits and behaviors that you can learn so that you can adapt your behavior to avoid dangerous encounters with them. They're not monsters that you need to have an irrational fear of unless you refuse to learn how to prevent running afoul of them. Knowledge of them is vital. Backing that knowledge up with bear spray is a prudent decision. If you're going to be out hunting where the "don't smell like dinner" rule has to be broken while you dress out a kill and pack it out, it can make sense to add a firearm, but then you're already carrying one so it becomes questionable why you'd ignore a big game rifle or shotgun for a big bore pistol.
+1, HSO. great points.:D

[Alaska444]

I live in bear country. Hiking with a handgun capable of defense against bears means a heavy revolver. Stick with the bear mace and count yourself privileged if you see one. Grizzly...? You'll need more than a pistol.
Exactly. if it wasn't for the possible accusation of poaching, I would always carry my Marlin .444. Even that is at the low end of acceptable griz defense guns.

[481]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/sub-moa/TW3_254.jpg


No doubt that advertisement started the first "Is a .25ACP enough gun for bear?" debate.

Imagine if Al Gore had already invented the internet when that came out.


We wouldn't have anything to talk about. :uhoh:

[22-rimfire]

I think that bear just scratched his last itch when hit with the 25ACP and was just amazed that he fell asleep and died. There was a bear attack in my area a couple of years ago and he was indeed shot with a 25 ACP (along with some other calibers).

Things would have been different if Al Gore had invented the internet when that ad had run.

[Alaska444]

I think that bear just scratched his last itch when hit with the 25ACP and was just amazed that he fell asleep and died. There was a bear attack in my area a couple of years ago and he was indeed shot with a 25 ACP (along with some other calibers).

Things would have been different if Al Gore had invented the internet when that ad had run.
Why go with a .25 caliber when you can just sneak up and put a .22 LR in his ear. EASY.:eek:

[Lost Sheep]

Keeping yourself safe from bears is mostly a matter of knowing about them. Where they are, what they are doing at various times of day and seasons of year and adjusting your behavior accordingly. Maintain good woodscraft skills, keep a clean camp, if you find a bear kill or really good berry patch, don't camp nearby, common sense stuff like that.

Across the northern tier (Alaska, Canada, most of the northern U.S.) the injury rate among users of pepper spray (and now the newer UDAP) is much lower than those using firearms. Check out this article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2193/2006-452/abstract

While the authors of this article are considered by some to be apologists for spray, the facts remain that spray is largely effective, easy to aim and cheap to own (everyone in your party can have a can).

Then there are the legal considerations. In Alaska, if you shoot a bear in defense of life or property (DLP) you are responsible for preserving the carcass, hide and skull, which you then have to turn over to the State. You go through all that work and you don't even get to keep the cape! If you only wound the bear and chase it off, you have left an angry, injured animal who is a danger to other people in the area and probably suffering badly. And you have to notify the authorities. You have just ruined a nice hike (at best). If you spray a bear, you may or may not have to report the encounter (depending on legal jurisdiction) and have taught the animal that people are not a convenient source of food and best avoided (a good thing).

Then there is the requirement that you be accurate and fast. Here's a drill for you.

Find a backstop made of a hill with crest about 40 yards away. Mark a spot about 10 yards away. Set up a soccer ball just short of the crest propped up with a block of wood. Shoot the block of wood with your first shot (or have a buddy do it with a 22).

When the soccer ball passes the 10 yard mark (the point at which you can tell the difference between a real threat and a bluff charge), see how many times you can put holes in it before it reaches you. Bears can run, over broken ground, more than 30 mph. You have 1.5 seconds to deliver as many aimed shots as you can.

For extra points, count only the holes you put in the black spots and deduct one point for holes in the white spots (just kidding about the deduction).

I do know of a couple of people who swear by 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs (hard enough not to deform on its way through the bear). One guy has the round in the chamber with buckshot with follow-up shots the hard slugs. The buckshot to the face is to make the bear turn sideways. A shoulder/spine shot is generally sufficient after that. A spine shot will immediatly stop any creature. A shoulder shot that breaks bone will at least slow the bear down so you can keep your distance and take a humane kill shot safely.

The current consensus is that a bullet with a wide meplate with minimal deformation and 100% weight retention is best. I like to say, "Energy shreds flesh, but momentum breaks bone."

There is no plinking ammunition good enough for bear.


Here are thoughts and experiences from others on the subject:

Read this thread, especially post #18 It doesn't get much dicier than surprizing a Grizzly Bear Sow with a cub.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852
or if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852


Then read this newspaper story from 4/18/08, Anchorage Daily News,

http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html
or if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html

"Bear spray stops charging sow .. SAVED: Couple hiking Peters Creek Trail used Counter Assault."

This was not an advertisement. Craig Medred is an outdoor writer on staff and the Anchorage Daily News.

A followup story ran on 4/20/08
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html
or
adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html

On the other hand, there is this story. Spray may not have helped. The bear was starving and desperate. He did OK with a firearm, but then he was also a professional outdoorsman, fishing guide.

http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html

and this fellow, a rancher in Montana who has had several encounters with bears.
See the post by windwalker, about 2/3 of the way down the page
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51538&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Oops. The link appears to be dead, but here is the quoted passage
Here's another testimonial for bear spray. The last paragraph, however is most telling. The author is not known to me, except through the internet


First a few pointer about bear spray. Make sure you use bear spray not mace or some other product, I like counter assault . I use the 8 oz cans, they are good for about 5 one second bursts. Maximum range is 30 feet, 20 feet is way better. Always carry it in a holster on your strong side. If it's in your pack, it might just as well be at home.

I have sprayed three grizz and one black bear over the course of 14 years. I also spend a lot of time in country with lots of bears. (just north of Glacier Park, Montana).

Grizzly number one stole a goat hide out of my tack room, I followed the salt trail into the woods about 40 yards and surprized a two or three year old bear at about 50 feet. He (bluff?) charged and I sprayed him in the face at about 25 feet, he turned 90 degrees and ran off. end of story.

JGrizz number chased me and the dog up on top of my trailer loaded with hay I sprayed him in the face about 6 feet below me. He ran head first into the trailer two or three times then ran off.

Grizz number three was in the garbage at camp at night. I thought it was a black bear saw i walked to within about 15 feet a yelled, not a good idea.He stood up took one step tward me a I sprayed him. He flipped over backward and rolled around on the ground for what seened like a lont time then left. This was a big bear, maybe 8 1/5 feet and 700 pounds.

The black bear sow with one cub stepped out in front of my horse and caused me to be bucked off. I landed on my bear spray and punched a small hole that started to hssssssss...which further annoyed my horse. I pulled the can out and threw it at the bear and hit baby bear, mama picked up the can and bit into it setting off the rest of the spray. They both ran off with mama almost running over the top of me. NOw this is very important...never ever have a **** with bear spray on your fingers.

It has always worked for me but I still take the shotgun if I have to go after a wounded bear.
Dave
Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice

I forgot to greet you properly in my earlier post.

You are planning ahead and considering your options. That is good.

Use the "Search" function to search for other threads on Bear Defense, Spray and other terms applicable to your question. There are many, since the question crops up regularly.

Enjoy your time in the woods and your time on the forum.

Lost Sheep

[Stevie-Ray]

I use a Glock 29 with heavy DT loads, but that's for blackies. For Grizzly, I always said I'd feel safest only with my FAL, or better yet, not being there. First and foremost I'd want bear spray. Then probably a .460 S&W for a handgun and a short shotgun with heavy slugs. And I'd still be worried.

[Certaindeaf]

I think Spartacus used a trident and a short sword.

[Alaska444]

Great comments Lost Sheep. The bottom line is that there is no absolute method of bear protection that works 100% of the time. Layered bear defense including both guns and pepper spray along with bear sense in the woods goes a long way.

The last few years, there have been many studies "proving" bear spray is better than firearms. Not so fast, take a look at a study on DLP's in the Kenai peninsula that shows some very successful uses of firearms against grizzly mainly.

http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_13/Suring_13.pdf

Very interesting study on DLP's in the Kenai Peninsula of Alaska. From 1961-1999, there were 71 DLP's recorded in this time period. Once again, this ONLY for the Kenai Peninsula, not the entire state of Alaska.

Of those 71 DLPs, there was only 1 recorded injury. The majority of these were away from the residence, the majority were from aggressive acting bears. Only 13 of the 71 were to protect property. 55% were an immediate threat and 27% were thought to be a danger.

[AKMtnRunner]

Alaska 444 has good input.

I routinely encounter black and a brown here and there in the mountains behind Anchorage. I count myself lucky for being able to view them so frequently and luckier that things never escalated. I've read and researched probably more than I like to admit on this topic. I've bought and become halfway proficient with a few options. This is the boiled down version of what I've learned.

Assess your risk level and understand that you're searching for the most appropriate compromise for your situation. Know that no matter what you choose, most firearm folks will suggest something else. You'll just have to decide for yourself after learning what is out there and how you can prepare yourself to react and apply those tools.

The best defense we'll ever have is our using our head. Travel in groups, make noise, and pay attention.

When it comes to firearms:

1. You need to have it with you when you need it. If you don't like carrying a long gun, you probably won't so a handgun is probably the first compromise you'll make.

2. Shot placement. If not a high power rifle, you'll need to break a lot of bone to immobilize it or penetrate the CNS. The bear can end you before it bleeds out from any other vital organ shot. You'll need to be very good with your aim AND very lucky. Hitting the brain while it's charging will be like trying to hit a football bouncing down a steep hill coming at you at 30 mph.

3. The best back up you can have is someone else with a firearm. Nevermind the statistics that say that bears are much less aggressive towards groups of 5 people or more.

4. Bear spray works. It's a great companion to a firearm.

5. For simplicity, I divide firearm power against larger bears into three classes. I divide these by how small a target is required to stop the bear.

I. First, high power rifle and perhaps a shotgun slug going very fast. These stand a decent chance to create huge enough damage with one shot to immediately incapacitate with a center of mass shot.
II. The second class is a large bullet or slower slug with enough momentum to crash through enough bone like a shoulder or penetrate the skull or reach the spinal cord. 357 mag is probably the minimum.
III. The third class is anything else that you can get through the eyeball or ear to reach the brain without having to break bone. Hardly noteworthy, but it has been done before.

There's no question that if given more than 5 seconds to respond to a bear intent on mauling you that you'd want to shoulder and aim a high powered rifle that you had in your hands and turn the bear's insides to mush. But that amount of warning and that scenario may not be likely. Besides hunters in the act, I don't know anyone that walks in the woods ready to take a shot like that. It's just not how we hike because that is crazy. We might as well put on body armour and a full faced helmet everytime we ride in a car.

However, it must be said that the absolute best way to fight off a bear is with multiple high powered rifles or shotguns. If one person is down, another should be able to take an effective shot.

The largest handguns are still limited to second class but handguns are also much more convenient to tote around with you and more likely to not be next to that tree that you leaned it up against. In addition, by the time you realize the bear's charge was not a bluff, you're being played around like a ragdoll and a handgun will be easier to hang onto, point, and discharge.

Remember that these are worst case scenarios of encountering a bear. Chances are slim that we encounter them, and much much more slimmer that they will be agressive. In every 30-40 of my encounters, the bear wanted to get away from me more than I wanted to get away from it. Whatever you choose, put a lot of thought into it and then a lot of rehearsal.

[The Smitty]

Thanks everyone for the responses. This has made me rethink the idea of a pistol for bear Protection. Might put some iron sights on my Savage 30-06 synthetic stock but I was wondering if anyone has heard of the Glock 20 cal.50 GI conversion. Thanks
Wyatt


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

[CountGlockulla]

I vote Glock 20

[rodinal220]

If we are talking sidearms, then it better start with a FOUR,especially for brown bears.Shoot the most powerful hand cannon you can handle well.Rounds like 460 and 500 S&W are starting to get into rifle like performance .

Rifle I would want a 308/30-06 minimum with heavy tough bullets. 45-70 better.

Shotgun,12 gauge with slugs,preferably Brennekes.

[460Kodiak]

IMO your best options are: Do things in the following order.

1. Make noise to let the bears know where you are, and avoid them if you know where they are.

2. Use bear spray first, if in a group have two or more people use bear spray.

3. Have a gun at the ready if you can, as a backup to the bear spray. If in a group, have more than one gun at the ready.

4. The gun should be some sort of high power rifle. I'd personally not go below a 338 Win Mag, but would much prefer a .375 H&H. It should be loaded with hard cast bullets that will penetrate deeply and break bone. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, carry a 12 gauge loaded with slugs.

5. If you are intent on a pistol for convienience of carry, as I am, look at something in 44 mag or bigger. If you insist on a semiauto, don't go lighter than a 10mm as you said.

6. Since this seems to be what you want, I would highly recomend the S&W 460V. It is a 5" bareled 460 magnum, and with a proper holster, it carries well. I use suspenders to help keep my pants up since it is a 4 lb. gun.

The reason I recomend it is you can shoot 454 Casull and 45 Colt out of it which helps keep range time a little cheaper, but it is still pricy to shoot. The 5" bbl balances well. They are accurate guns, and you can lob a 325 gr hard cast bullet at about 1900 fps and that would generate about 2600 ftlbs of energy. Not bad for a revovler, and the versatility of cartridge selection makes it a do everything gun for me. 1900 fps is en estimate since 460 was originally designed for an 8 & 3/8ths inch bbl. It may be a bit lower but the performance is still great.

Also, if you can, have hearing protection very ready to diploy, and warn your companions. If you blow one of those off without protection, you WILL do hearing damage. I always say better deaf than dead though.

Bear spray is still the best first defense though.

[wlewisiii]

Pepper spray.

[Shadow 7D]

bear spray and paranoia will go MUCH further than overconfidence and a gun on your hip.

[Alaska444]

bear spray and paranoia will go MUCH further than overconfidence and a gun on your hip.
Why not carry both since neither is 100% effective.

[TrueTexan]

I remember when I was in Jackson Hole a few years age was told to carry Bear Bells and Bear Pepper Spray. Then was told how you can tell which bears are around by the scat they leave. If BlackBears the scat has berries and other vegetable matter, if Brown"grizzly" bears it has Bellls and smells like pepper spray. :D

[jimbo555]

Get a wide comfy sling and carry a pump action 12 guage,you will feel more protected and enjoy the hike more!

[Kendahl]

Sixteen years ago, a married couple were hiking in Kluane National Park in the Yukon. They were approached by an aggressive, young, male grizzly. A shot of bear spray drove him away, but he returned after a few minutes. After a few repetitions, they ran out of spray. The bear then killed the wife and badly injured the husband. Park officials later found and killed the bear.

Bear spray clearly worked in this situation, but only temporarily. The couple needed a permanent solution, in the form of a firearm, and didn't have one.

[wildcatter109]

thee 22 will penetrate twice what a 25 will. when they wont penatrate a 55 gal. barrel at 10', won't do much more than Pi$$ off any bear. I'll take a wheel gun anyday, 45 colt 340 grain cast, or if you can handle it a 4 3/4" model 83 454 FA, same Bullet.

[Alaska444]

Sixteen years ago, a married couple were hiking in Kluane National Park in the Yukon. They were approached by an aggressive, young, male grizzly. A shot of bear spray drove him away, but he returned after a few minutes. After a few repetitions, they ran out of spray. The bear then killed the wife and badly injured the husband. Park officials later found and killed the bear.

Bear spray clearly worked in this situation, but only temporarily. The couple needed a permanent solution, in the form of a firearm, and didn't have one.
Interesting but very sad story. I looked up from your references. The victim was a 32 yo female hiking with her husband. They encountered a juvenile bear weighing in at only 130 pounds.

According to 3 or 4 accounts on the internet, they tried to hide, then they dropped their back packs and then they played dead. The wife ended up dead for real.

I wasn't able to find any account talking about pepper spray in this attack. Not sure if it is in other reports. It even made the NY times:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/04/world/after-fatal-mauling-in-canada-too-many-bears.html

With a juvenile bear and two people, they might have had a better outcome standing up to the bear. Certainly bear spray if they didn't have it, would have been a great deterrent to have. Standing your ground, having bear spray and a gun should have been the operative bear protection plan.

This case represents the bear encounter advice from a couple of decades ago that still is prevalent in many places. This case and others demonstrate why having lethal force as part of the bear protection plan must be part of a layered approach.

Thanks for the reference. Hopefully, that type of approach to a bear encounter will no longer be taught, but sadly it still is in many places. Playing dead should be a choice of last resort.

Canada's Parks Service suggests in a brochure titled ''You are in Bear Country'' that if attacked by a grizzly, ''playing dead -- curling up in a ball and covering your face, neck and abdomen -- may be effective.''

This is exactly what Christine Courtney, 32, the woman who was killed, and her husband Paul, 31, did when a grizzly pursued them on the Slims Valley trail of the Kluane Park, about 20 miles north of Haines Junction, gateway to the park, about a two-hour drive west of Whitehorse. . .

But Mr. Shelton, who teaches bear attack survival tactics, termed the advice about playing dead ''dangerous in a predatory attack.''

''They should have stood together with their packs on and made a lot of noise,'' he said.

[Kendahl]

I know about the Kluane attack only because my wife and I were in Whitehorse at the time. It was a stop on a vacation trip to Alaska and the Yukon. The attack was the top story in the local media for several days. That's where I heard about the victims' running out of spray.

The incident had particular significance for us since a five day horseback pack trip in Kluane starting from Haines Junction was next on our vacation. Also on the pack trip were the local justice of the peace, her adult daughter and the daughter's friend. The JP thought it ludicrous that our guide was forbidden to carry a firearm to protect her clients and herself.

The pack trip led to a big change in our lives. After returning home, we decided to take a few riding lessons so that we would be more than passengers on future trips. Years later, we are still horsing around.

[Alaska444]

I know about the Kluane attack only because my wife and I were in Whitehorse at the time. It was a stop on a vacation trip to Alaska and the Yukon. The attack was the top story in the local media for several days. That's where I heard about the victims' running out of spray.

The incident had particular significance for us since a five day horseback pack trip in Kluane starting from Haines Junction was next on our vacation. Also on the pack trip were the local justice of the peace, her adult daughter and the daughter's friend. The JP thought it ludicrous that our guide was forbidden to carry a firearm to protect her clients and herself.

The pack trip led to a big change in our lives. After returning home, we decided to take a few riding lessons so that we would be more than passengers on future trips. Years later, we are still horsing around.
Interesting, they followed all of the prevailing advice and had a terrible outcome.

I have been to both Haines Junction and Whitehorse. My mom drove us out of Alaska in the summer of 1966 and the car broke down near Haines Junction. My dad had a cousin in Whitehorse. We stayed there a couple of days then took a train to NY City and on to our destination. I have been up and down the entire length of the Alcan highway a total of three times.

Thanks for the update. Very sad and unnecessary death. Simply having a large knife could have aborted the attack and fighting together as a team, but playing dead is not always a successful tactic. It should only be a tactic of last resort, but never used in a predatory attack.

Once again, thanks for the update and glad you did well on your own trip.

[Shadow 7D]

You need to study this stuff, if you are going to do it, half-assed is just going to get you dead

Surprise Mama bear (DEFENSIVE) encounter, drop, play dead and take a few whacks, she wants her cubs safe and playing soccer with you is a way to get that

AGGRESSIVE bears, well that's different, play defensive, and get dead (eaten etc.)
stand your ground, and postering will give you time/ability to get AWAY and stay alive, you may even have to run it off, small bear like that they should have fought and challenged.

this is where PARANOIA comes into effect, it' means you LEARN and STAY ALERT.
thinking a gun or bells or spray is a majic talisman...
I would rather a paranoid guy with spray than a cocky guy with his '6 shooter'
cause the paranoid guy will live 4 out of 5 times....

[labman45]

i'd also go the glock 20, simply because of the large magazine. hitting a moving bear, one that's moving at you, while you are most likely soiling yourself, is another matter. a second choice would be a .41 mag. i recently bought-i think they're remingtons-two boxes of 240gr .41 mag ammo. i'd have to think that they are in the same ballpark as the 240gr .44 mag. at least a step up from the normal 210gr you usually find for the .41.

[Shadow 7D]

THIS IS NOT A EQUIPMENT PROBLEM


THIS IS A MINDSET/SKILL SET PROBLEM

What GUN
is the wrong answer, because it's the wrong question
and once again the pointlessness of 'bear gun' threads....
pointless cause these are JUST an excuse for people to beat their chest and claim that the are 'HE-man of the woods' and that their XXXXX is the best gun......

stupid is as stupid does, and stupid in bear country mean you are prey...
YEAH, 99% of these come from places that have little to no risk from bears.....

[Dunkelheit]

Marlin 1895 and Glock 20.

[Alaska444]

THIS IS NOT A EQUIPMENT PROBLEM


THIS IS A MINDSET/SKILL SET PROBLEM

What GUN
is the wrong answer, because it's the wrong question
and once again the pointlessness of 'bear gun' threads....
pointless cause these are JUST an excuse for people to beat their chest and claim that the are 'HE-man of the woods' and that their XXXXX is the best gun......

stupid is as stupid does, and stupid in bear country mean you are prey...
YEAH, 99% of these come from places that have little to no risk from bears.....
Christine Courtney didn't have a mindset problem, she and her husband had an equipment problem, not even a hunting knife as a means of last resort. The attack unrolled slow enough that in this case, a gun would have provided definitive bear defense.

Mindset alone is not enough my friend. With frost on the ground today, call me from the frozen northern Idaho land. We have bears all around us. None of my friends venture out into the wilds without a gun or rifle, period. Just the way it is. Paranoia alone is not enough. a paranoid man in the woods without lethal defense measures should just stay at home and quake in their bed, or under their bed.

What is the best strategy? Safety in numbers true bear sense and both lethal and non-lethal deterrents. Pepper spray and a gun.

[Certaindeaf]

^
Very sad/unfortunate story.

I remember reading in the American Rifleman years ago of a fellow that killed a black bear for some reason with a 3" pocket knife. His dog was rope a doping it and he had to finally palm push the handle and all in to kill it. Obviously a memorable story.

[lobo9er]

bear spray and paranoia will go MUCH further than overconfidence and a gun on your hip. these are JUST an excuse for people to beat their chest and claim that the are 'HE-man of the woods'

still sounding like the liberals in the city. Close to same argument as them anyways. Bear threads come up alot I maybe guilty, cant remember, but it usually seems like its new people here that haven't read through a thousand and it is a fair question, "what would kill a bear if I happen to stumble into a bad situation." It happens and not everyone it happens to smells like chips and salsa in their tent as you want us to believe. So why belittle the question from some one with 2 other posts? I like a sp101 when I hike be it solo, with friends or my wife. So that must mean by your answers I am chest pounding half cocked maniac, shoots anything that moves. hmmm How about leaving your lighter at home, you can always use the stick and shoelace method to start a fire if you need one. A gun IMHO is just another tool to have to be prepared.

[Alaska444]

^
Very sad/unfortunate story.

I remember reading in the American Rifleman years ago of a fellow that killed a black bear for some reason with a 3" pocket knife. His dog was rope a doping it and he had to finally palm push the handle and all in to kill it. Obviously a memorable story.
Several cases in the past where a knife helped fend off a bear. One case reported in one of the bear attack books I have read in the past talked about a man that killed a medium sized grizzly with a large hunting knife. He didn't look all too well in the end, but he survived and the bear died.

One recent case ended with a man trying valiantly to save his wife with a Swiss Army knife. He did successfully end the attack fighting the bear and stabbing it repeatedly, but it was too late for his wife, Jacqueline Perry. Bear spray and a gun most likely could have saved her once again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70Pxh-pCWw

[tomrkba]

There seems to be much disagreement regarding firearms to use against bear. Does anyone have any stats regarding what firearms were used successfully or unsuccessfully?

The buckets are:

1) Handgun calibers:

10mm with hot hardcast
44 Magnum
454 Casull
45 Colt

2) Shotguns

20 gauge with certain slugs
12 gauge with certain slugs

3) Rifles

Almost universally accepted so long as the caliber is heavy enough.

[Alaska444]

One more account of a man killing a bear with a knife. He was motivated by the story of Jacqueline Perry and started carrying a 6 inch knife for protection. Shortly after, he was able to put that survival strategy to the test:

When the bear blocked Tilley’s path, and began advancing menacingly, Sam, his Staffordshire terrier, came out from behind his master, and placed himself between Tilley and the bear.

The bear grabbed the dog in his jaws, but thinking to himself “’You’re not going to kill my dog,” the horrified Tilley drew his knife, and advanced to the attack. Tilley leaped onto the bear’s back, and began stabbing. Though bitten on the hand, Tom Tilley killed that bear.

http://neveryetmelted.com/2006/07/23/55-year-old-ontario-man-kills-bear-with-knife/

[Certaindeaf]

It seems we have to consider bigfoot now since we all now know that the magnificent .25acp will slay the big bad bruin.
The last Les Stroud offering showed him recounting an experience he had up in Alaskaland. Certainly sounded beleivable and he was dead scared with his accounting. Maybe a hank of flowers stuffed in the muzzle of your 12 boomer to show your good will? never know

[AKMtnRunner]

There seems to be much disagreement regarding firearms to use against bear. Does anyone have any stats regarding what firearms were used successfully or unsuccessfully?

The buckets are:

1) Handgun calibers:

10mm with hot hardcast
44 Magnum
454 Casull
45 Colt

2) Shotguns

20 gauge with certain slugs
12 gauge with certain slugs

3) Rifles

Almost universally accepted so long as the caliber is heavy enough.


I really don't think there is much disagreement about what is best for bears. I think we can all agree that bigger is better. But we don't take 50 cal machine guns with us because it's not practical. And because we all have different styles, so is our view of practicality. It's a personal decision made for personal needs. Like every day carry defense, some don't mind carrying .44 mag and others carry a mouse gun because a 9mm is too big.

Bears have been killed by objects that may not kill a human, and these stories get a lot more attention for obvious reasons, so it's difficult to conclude adaquate bear defense equipment from reading the stories.

IMHO, the best equipment for anyone is spray and simply the most powerful firearm that they are willing to take with them.

[tomrkba]

I recall a show on TV where a hotel situated to watch the annual polar bear migration uses dogs to keep the bears away. Why not walk with two or three large dogs in addition to a firearm?

[Certaindeaf]

^
School childerns up in New Brunswick or someplace are required to carry rifles to and from school every day for polar bear.

[silicosys4]

^^because everyone has a lifestyle that can accommodate keeping 2-3 large dogs around just for that occasional hike in bear country.:rolleyes:

[JohnM]

Any ol' dog won't do.
The other day a bear chased my lab out of the windbreak behind the house.
She broke all land speed records running to try and hide behind me! :D
Then ran over to the porch and hid there till she was sure the bear was gone.

[lobo9er]

Why not walk with two or three large dogs in addition to a firearm?
is that tongue in cheek? :)

[Shadow 7D]

the mountain next to my house is called 'bear mountain'
cause there are BROWN bears there,
please take the time to look up the AK DNR page on bear encounters,
Backpacker did a great article a few years ago, and it was on their website free to everyone.

My point is, too many people pick up a 'big hulking gun'
and that's as far as they go, they never take the time to learn a little about bear behavior, never take the time to learn about bear signs etc.

That said, every time I've encountered a bear it was at distance, they did what they did, and I kept going, yeah a bit more paranoid, but then I don't have a habit of venturing off by my self and tend to stick to the more traveled trails.

edit
bears encounters dog
dog runs
dog hides (behind you)
bear encounters YOU....

dogs ain't worth much more than a early warning, with the understanding that they will draw the bear into you...
TRAINED, bear dogs, are a different story.
http://www.bearunoffkennels.com/

[JohnM]

bears encounters dog
dog runs
dog hides (behind you)
bear encounters YOU....


True story and not enough people think about the family pooch tagging along when in bear country.

We got a grizzly hanging around now, so I suppose I should start strapping something on when I'm going to be messing around in the thick willows and brush again.
Friend of mine was on his way home on his motorcycle after irrigating on the dirt road behind my house and a big old boar wouldn't get out of the road, he had to go back and wait awhile till the griz finally wandered off so he could get by.

[dprice3844444]

Bear Protection for Backpacking Suggestions
good hiking and running shoes and making sure you can run faster than your spouse

magnum research bfr45/70

[lobo9er]

My point is, too many people pick up a 'big hulking gun'
and that's as far as they go, they never take the time to learn a little about bear behavior, never take the time to learn about bear signs etc.



I can agree with you there. an ounce of caution beats a pound of mecication. or something like that.

[Panzercat]

Now I do have to ask...

And having absolutely zero bear experience slaying undead grizzly laser bears save what I read on this forum (at least I'm honest here)...

...What's with this layered defense methodology again? When people go on about how you should have both a firearm and bearspray, I can't help but to envision this person dual wielding a can in one hand and a pistol in the other aimed at the bear and waiting for his move.

Frankly, once the bear is inside your bear spray's 18-30ft effective range, you have some decisions to make; decisions you probably should have made well before that point. This isn't a layered defense no matter how much people say it is. You aren't going to try the bear spray, then fumble for your pistol as the sauced bear shrugs it off and decides you're dinner. You like bear spray and that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking you'll get a do-over. If you've let Sir 30mph Meat Tank inside bear spray range and it decides you're a threat, I really hope you made the right choice.

This isn't layered defense. The terminology is flat out misleading. You probably won't get to change your mind. Unless you're Quick Draw Mcgraw- and most of us ain't -I don't see it happening.

Best of luck in any event.

[Alaska444]

Now I do have to ask...

And having absolutely zero bear experience slaying undead grizzly laser bears save what I read on this forum (at least I'm honest here)...

...What's with this layered defense methodology again? When people go on about how you should have both a firearm and bearspray, I can't help but to envision this person dual wielding a can in one hand and a pistol in the other aimed at the bear and waiting for his move.

Frankly, once the bear is inside your bear spray's 18-30ft effective range, you have some decisions to make; decisions you probably should have made well before that point. This isn't a layered defense no matter how much people say it is. You aren't going to try the bear spray, then fumble for your pistol as the sauced bear shrugs it off and decides you're dinner. You like bear spray and that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking you'll get a do-over. If you've let Sir 30mph Meat Tank inside bear spray range and it decides you're a threat, I really hope you made the right choice.

This isn't layered defense. The terminology is flat out misleading. You probably won't get to change your mind. Unless you're Quick Draw Mcgraw- and most of us ain't -I don't see it happening.

Best of luck in any event.
Well, since I believe I am the person that mentioned a "layered defense," I guess I will answer your response. If someone else mentioned it first, please refresh my memory.

What I mean by a layered defense is starting with the basics. From a study a couple of years ago looking back at a century of bear attacks in Alaska, a couple of important issues were evident. First, most attacks occur with one or two people walking, hiking or working alone. When you go to four or more people in a group, bear attacks drop precipitously. Second, most attacks occur in dense brush as opposed to open areas. If it is possible to avoid dense brush, the chance of a bear attack likewise drops greatly.

Thus the first layer of defense is recognizing how terrain and group strength affects your risk before you even leave the door of your house. The next layer of defense is understanding bear behavior should you encounter a bear in the woods and what actions you should take. Most bear experts recommend standing your ground in almost all situations and then slowly retreating to safety if possible.

After all of these considerations, having BOTH bear spray as your usual first choice most often carried in a chest holster ready for use immediately is the next layer of defense. For the case mentioned a bit ago, when the bear spray canister is spent, what is your next layer of defense? That is when lethal deterrence is mandatory for proper preparation.

Many people prefer guns as their primary bear deterrence and fortunately, there are studies from DLPs in Alaska showing them equally effective to bear spray despite the concerted propaganda we have heard to the contrary for the last decade at least. If a gun is your primary bear defense, then practice at moving targets if possible to gain the proficiency needed. Thus practice and proficiency is another layer of bear defense.

Next is the bear safety protocols used in camps to prevent attacks while sleeping including separate food preparation and eating areas from the sleeping area. Many in bear country consider a standard layer of protection using a portable electric fence and some sort of perimeter warning systems in addition to camp hygiene.

When you add all of these factors together, you still are well below a 100% effective plan. That is what I meant by a layered defense. Perhaps the most important aspect of that is having at least one other person prepared to be your back up should your primary defense measures fail.

If you look at the majority of bear attacks noted in the news, there are very few cases where all of these measures failed. Most attacks are against people that didn't give much thought at all to bear defense before heading into the woods. That just isn't a smart way to camp, hike or hunt any longer. I point to the Canadian case where the man above chose to bring a large hunting knife as his lethal deterrent since he couldn't carry a gun legally. His planning in advance saved his life and his dog's.

Once again, there truly are multiple layers of bear defense. If you take issue with my term, so be it, but that is what I meant by a layered defense. For Christine Courtney, a layered defense including a gun or even a large knife above and beyond their one canister of bear spray would have gone a long way to surviving her attack by a juvenile bear.

[Shadow 7D]

Now I do have to ask...

And having absolutely zero bear experience slaying undead grizzly laser bears save what I read on this forum (at least I'm honest here)...

...What's with this layered defense methodology again? When people go on about how you should have both a firearm and bearspray, I can't help but to envision this person dual wielding a can in one hand and a pistol in the other aimed at the bear and waiting for his move.
This isn't layered defense. The terminology is flat out misleading. You probably won't get to change your mind. Unless you're Quick Draw Mcgraw- and most of us ain't -I don't see it happening.

Best of luck in any event.
It saves you a VERY through rectal exam by a variety of law enforcement and wildlife agencies. The Park Service takes a VERY dim view of you shooting their attractions.
bear spray is VERY effective when it's employed on POSTURING and Defensive bears (aggressive/hunting YOU bears... well kinda, and blacks are LESS affected than browns)
so instead of being Flash McGee and 'plugg'n full of lead' you can dissuade the bear and avoid a whole slew of legal issues....
gun for those that won't turn or as BACKUP

(the Ideal is that one person has the spray, while another (up wind) has the gun and is 10-15* off the line of person 1/bear)


AND ONCE AGAIN
equipment will NEVER make up for failing to be bear smart in bear country
MINDSET SKILLSET and then (further down)
EQUIPMENT....

these tend to be MUCH too much on 'what gun'
and not on 'don't be an idiot'

[Alaska444]

It saves you a VERY through rectal exam by a variety of law enforcement and wildlife agencies. The Park Service takes a VERY dim view of you shooting their attractions.
bear spray is VERY effective when it's employed on POSTURING and Defensive bears (aggressive/hunting YOU bears... well kinda, and blacks are LESS affected than browns)
so instead of being Flash McGee and 'plugg'n full of lead' you can dissuade the bear and avoid a whole slew of legal issues....
gun for those that won't turn or as BACKUP

(the Ideal is that one person has the spray, while another (up wind) has the gun and is 10-15* off the line of person 1/bear)


AND ONCE AGAIN
equipment will NEVER make up for failing to be bear smart in bear country
MINDSET SKILLSET and then (further down)
EQUIPMENT....

these tend to be MUCH too much on 'what gun'
and not on 'don't be an idiot'
Very interesting commentary by a firearm/ammo expert. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore gave his philosophy of bear protection. May not be politically correct, but it truly sheds light on a much discussed issue. His choice, 45-70 and 500 Limbaugh for bear defense, .338 for hunting. Read his whole treatise, I have included a short exerpt:

“Stopping” bears with handgun or rifle cartridges

. . . There are many in our society who believe the life of an animal has equal or greater value than that of a human. I disagree. A bear is a wild animal, that when not threatening human life, is a wonderful sight. However, when I encounter bears that act aggressively by popping their teeth, woofing, swinging their head from side to side, charging, etc. I shoot them. I do not give them a prolonged chance to kill my wife, children, myself or any one that is with me. When I encounter bears (which I do several times per year) that run at my sight or smell, they are safe from me because I know I am safe from them. When they show aggression to humans, it is irresponsible to let them live as they will eventually permanently harm or kill someone. I don’t care that our governmental wild life agencies are protecting bears. They are generally misguided in this tactic. . .

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

No wonder I like his ammo so much. He makes them in accordance to his philosophy and they work well. He always puts people first and bears are wild animals not to be placed above people. If they are aggressive, he views it his responsibility to eliminate that animal. Very interesting take on this entire discussion. Interestingly, he feels a 9 mm with the right bullets capable of bear defense.

[lobo9er]

these tend to be MUCH too much on 'what gun'
and not on 'don't be an idiot'



just going around in circles here. But there are guns that make for better hiking pieces. The wieght to caliber power ratio and how well you can control it, is really what is important I'm thinking

[sub-moa]

Well, considering this is a "Gun" forum...and not a "Don't be an idiot" forum…though sometimes I wonder :scrutiny:, perhaps the tendency to discuss "What gun?" just might make more sense than some here might want to admit ;)

Besides, confrontation avoidance based upon a thorough understanding of bear behavior works great…until it doesn’t. I don’t know that a bitch slap is near as effective during a predatory attack…as some sort of…”Gun” :uhoh::D

[22-rimfire]

Your average camper or park visitor is not going to research bear behavior. His knowledge is going to be pretty much limited to what might be on signs posted in National Parks or perhaps a brochure distributed in the park for visitors.

Hence, bear spray and a reasonable firearm that you have with you are prudent preventative measures. I wouldn't go so far as shoot 'em if they display aggressive behavior toward humans as suggested by Buffalo Bore, but it does merit paying attention.

[History.Doc]

I had the same need but went in a very different direction. I carry a ruger Blackhawk in .357 for bears. .38 snakeshot some times of the year; plink with .38 wwb. Heavy, reliable, simple, safe, versatile, and I know I can use it under stress. Funny how the same needs and data can lead you in such a different direction.

[JohnM]

38 snake shot to use on a bear?
Even around here where we still think of black bears as destructive pests no one would even think about pissing one off at close range with a puny blast of snake shot.

[Shadow 7D]

Unlike the guy who owns BB

YOU probably don't have the spare cash to hire lawyers to defend a bad shoot.
some learning can go a long way, I'm not saying dont' defend yourself, I'm saying don't be stupid,

blazing away at bear..... he may talk the talk, but I'm willing to guess he hasn't been to Alaska and met our wildlife troopers....

[lobo9er]

308 auto rifle? or you must have meant 380 auto:)

[JohnM]

Think he probably means a semi auto rifle of some model in 308.
Don't know why though, for hunting there's slews of rifles good for bear around.
An old late friend in Idaho hunted bear, including grizzly, for 6o years with an iron sighted 99 Savage in 250-3000.
For just wandering around in grizzly country where there's a good chance of an unwanted close encounter I'll pack a hand gun.

[History.Doc]

38 snake shot to use on a bear?
Even around here where we still think of black bears as destructive pests no one would even think about pissing one off at close range with a puny blast of snake shot.

Sorry if I was unclear. I am talking about my hiking gun. In some places, certain times of year, snakes are a bigger threat than bears. I wouldn't shoot a bear with snake shot.

[JohnM]

Good :D
I never had a snake try to chase me out of the woods though.

[Alaska444]

Unlike the guy who owns BB

YOU probably don't have the spare cash to hire lawyers to defend a bad shoot.
some learning can go a long way, I'm not saying dont' defend yourself, I'm saying don't be stupid,

blazing away at bear..... he may talk the talk, but I'm willing to guess he hasn't been to Alaska and met our wildlife troopers....
The interesting thing about Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore is that he answers his own emails on questions about his ammo. I did that on one or two occasions.

As far as him never being to Alaska, no, that is not true. Listen to his account of how he agreed on who would shoot and when with his guide while on a grizzly hunt in Alaska.

05-21-2010 #86
Tim Sundles
Member

Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Homes in MT and ID
Posts
247

First, most AK brown bear guides really dont let many of thier clients shoot much over 100 yards. Second, when I hunted AK brown bear I had an agreement with my guide that if I wounded a bear and it was getting away, I and only I could shoot it. Third, ONLY if the bear was harming me, was the guide allowed to shoot the bear at all. Fourth, I could carry a round in the chamber at all times. He agreed before we ever set one foot afield.

Most guiding will require very close shots. One of the errors I see in this thread is the misconception that AK Brown Bear guides will often be shooting big bears at long range--that simply does not and should not happen often, if at all.

For guiding AK Brown Bear, the 45-70 with heavy loads is almost perfect and is better than a 338 WM or a 375H&H, BUT THE SAME CANNOT BE SAID FOR HUNTING Brown Bear. Guiding and hunting are far different.


http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/78946-I-am-an-Alaskan-Guide-and-I-carry-a-xxx-Rifle?p=739728&viewfull=1#post739728

If you have an issue with what Tim Sundles wrote in his BB advice on bear defense, simply email him and post his reply here.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=page_view&p=contact_us

He is not someone that I would disparage however.

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, well, there is HUGE difference between HUNTING and PROTECTION
shooting any bear that postures is a good way to have F&G make your stuff their stuff and end up with a set of shiny new bracelets.

it's a sound bite, I'm sure there is LOTS more to it, but...
not sound advice.

[JohnM]

Down here of course grizzlies are protected.
Our Game and Fish Commission frowns highly on all grizzly shootings.
There's always an in depth investigation.
Rather than get cross threaded with G&F most people if they're having problems with a griz call them and let them trap it if it can work out that way.

[Alaska444]

Yeah, well, there is HUGE difference between HUNTING and PROTECTION
shooting any bear that postures is a good way to have F&G make your stuff their stuff and end up with a set of shiny new bracelets.

it's a sound bite, I'm sure there is LOTS more to it, but...
not sound advice.
Actually, it is one of the reasons we are reaping more bear attacks I am sure. Tim Sundles is only espousing the prevailing sentiment that people had decades ago. Think about it, if the aggressive bears were eliminated and the fraidy cat bears were let go, there was a huge selection for bears afraid of man.

Bears are very intelligent creatures and it has been documented that they pass on learned behavior to their cubs. The new tolerance of even aggressive bears forced upon the American population by the Feds I believe, in my opinion is one of the causes of increasing rates of bear attacks. Many other factors involved as well for sure, but that is one factor that is not politically correct to mention.

In such, I respect Tim Sundles for exercising his first amendment rights of free speech in accord with exercising his second amendment rights as well. That is the way it was in the old days.

In addition, he did not state that as a recommendation or advice, he simply was stating the facts that many people did see and view the world of bear control in those terms. There is a saying up here in Idaho, shoot, shovel and shut up. Once again, I am not advocating that in contradistinction to THR rules of conduct, just stating what I have heard from a lot of folks about what other folks state. (I guess that is double or triple hearsay, but just saying if you know what I mean.)

So, bottom line, Tim Sundles is speaking sound advice on what I believe we should do in the woods, but I am not advocating breaking any laws. Just saying, you know what I mean. The new attitude to even aggressive bears will and has come back to bite us. (sorry for the pun)

I believe this is very much in line with the new way of raising kids where you just shouldn't spank them. Well, shucks, I guess I am plain and simply wrong if I were to give anyone that advice. Pretty much the same situation with what Tim Sundles stated about aggressive bears. I think he is correct even though not politically correct.

[tomrkba]

So do packs of large dogs work? That hotel up north uses dogs to keep polar bears at distance. Would the same tactic work in the forests of Alaska?

[Alaska444]

Down here of course grizzlies are protected.
Our Game and Fish Commission frowns highly on all grizzly shootings.
There's always an in depth investigation.
Rather than get cross threaded with G&F most people if they're having problems with a griz call them and let them trap it if it can work out that way.
Tim Sundles is from Montana, another bear protection zone.

[Shadow 7D]

Um, no
they used trained bear dogs, who are trained to do that,
so if you happen to have trained bear dogs, yes, it would work

much like asking if your family poodle is a great sheep dog...

as for 'bear protection zone'
thank a tree hugger, I'm arguing the practical side, that is LEARN basic safety in bear country
bear spray is point and shoot, guns not so much...
and legal etc. etc.

[22-rimfire]

You do what you have to do, but ONLY what you have to do relative to defending yourself from a bear. Defending yourself is not hunting nor is it sporting.

[Lost Sheep]

So do packs of large dogs work? That hotel up north uses dogs to keep polar bears at distance. Would the same tactic work in the forests of Alaska?
Possibly, but the type of dog you want to take on a hike is not the type of dog that makes a good housepet.

Make no mistake, these dogs are loyal, safe around family and such. So, this type of dog CAN make a good pet, but by nature are outdoors types, require a lot of exercise and often some specialized training. You are talking about taking a working dog and letting it enjoy its nature, satisfy its desire, fulfill its destiny only once in a while. That is just cruel, as it is a recipe for frustration in the dog and possible neuroses.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

after you have had to shoot an aggressive bear. If you are really worried about having done so, get rid of the gun, simple task, actually. No $400 308 rifle is worth a legal battle costing thousands of $.
Say what?

It is pretty easy to get rid of a gun, true. But getting rid of a bear carcass?

The untracked wilderness is not as unobserved as your post seems to imply and the places the O.P. hikes is, by my estimation of his posts, relatively heavily populated by people, e.g. witnesses.

Think again.

Lost Sheep

[CB900F]

The Smitty;

In your situation, rather than the full sized rifle I'd go the combat shotgun route with a Knoxx stock. It's easier to get into position than the long gun. You can practice with relatively inexpensive trap loads & work up to combat bear stuff. The usual gun of choice for this is the 870 Express Home Defense with an 18" barrel & extended magazine. That combined with the recoil cushioning Knoxx stock makes a practical gun that almost anybody in your party should be able to use. Slinging the gun properly is very important, don't be afraid to try different options to find what works best for you.

I live in Montana & have encountered griz close enough to tell you that as a stone fact that they have bad breath. And haven't had to shoot either. Pay attention to the advice that arming yourself with knowledge is critical.

900F

[460Kodiak]

Wow, how has this thread gone so far off the tracks. The OP asked about recomendations for a handgun for bear defense. I think we've answered that haven't we? It seems if a handgun is going to be the defensive tool should an illtempered bear be encountered, then go with a 10mm or higher powered gun.

We have strayed into philosophy and I kind of can't believes the mods have allowed this one to go on.

AND ONCE AGAIN
equipment will NEVER make up for failing to be bear smart in bear country
MINDSET SKILLSET and then (further down)
EQUIPMENT....


I don't think anyone is diputing this man, so with respect, please relax and stop yelling at everyone. I don't think anyone is arguing that being educated and avoiding the problem is by far the best tactic. It's simply a hardware question in the OP.

these tend to be MUCH too much on 'what gun'
and not on 'don't be an idiot'

Well, it's a gun forum. I'm sure there is a "One with Nature" forum you could join. the OP's question was about a gun, and that makes it an appropriate question for the group.

The Park Service takes a VERY dim view of you shooting their attractions.


I have no doubt of that. But if I have no other option, I couldn't care less what they think or what the penalty is. I'm going to shoot if I need to. I'll take the legal problems, I'll take being put into custody, I'll take any fines................. and I'll also keep my life. Shooting should be a last resort, just like you said. But isn't there merit to thinking about what gun to bring, just in case you do have to shoot? All of your posts imply that even asking the question is wrong. If a person doesn't know the answer or have an education in firearms, isn't it better to ask?

[Certaindeaf]

You really only need one of those magich talisman gun tatoos.. flash that and all you'll see is hairy ******* and elbows.

[Shadow 7D]

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/10/2582961/man-charged-with-killing-brown.html
they troopers who investigate these things take them VERY seriously
I went to school with the son of one of Federal F&G's top scientists, stuff like DNA evidence and a number of 'forensic techniques' that are now standard were developed by guys like Dr. Espinoza to bring down illegal smugglers.

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)

Better not to get there, why do you have 'what gun'
when was the last, "Anybody have some good resources to learn about bears and staying safe in bear country"

Naw, just what type of cannon to blast them away...
edit:
what we need is more knee mortars, that's the solution :what:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar
;)

[Alaska444]

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/10/2582961/man-charged-with-killing-brown.html
they troopers who investigate these things take them VERY seriously
I went to school with the son of one of Federal F&G's top scientists, stuff like DNA evidence and a number of 'forensic techniques' that are now standard were developed by guys like Dr. Espinoza to bring down illegal smugglers.

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)

Better not to get there, why do you have 'what gun'
when was the last, "Anybody have some good resources to learn about bears and staying safe in bear country"

Naw, just what type of cannon to blast them away...
edit:
what we need is more knee mortars, that's the solution :what:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar
;)
Not sure if you are directing this at my posts, but that is not my message at all. I readily understand the heavy handed approach of the Feds and F&G, but I believe it is a misguided directive by these folks. That is my opinion. Once again, I am not advocating breaking any laws, but laws have changed in recent years through informed advocacy.

The wolf hunting season and delisting came about through conservative advocacy. I believe that they need to modify the grizzly bear protection now in effect as well in the lower 48. In fact, it has nearly been accomplished in the courts since they have greatly exceeded population goals of the protection program.

The missing equation in the bear attacks in the last couple of decades is how the Bambi generation mentality is increasing the danger for people who wish to enjoy the woods. Tim Sundles summed up that sentiment better than anyone else I have encountered recently. Placing people at the top of the list once again as the most important creatures in the woods is all that he is really stating. I agree with that and I also agree that lack of hunting pressure on these creatures send the wrong message.

That is now openly confirmed by the F&G in Alaska and the Chugach wilderness areas. For 30 years, no hunting has resulted in animals over running Anchorage and bear attacks increasingly common. Now, the F&G is once again opening limited hunting of that population that surrounds the city. If even the Anchorage wild life managers now recognize that truth, it must be worse than what the press reports.

[Alaska444]

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)


I believe you should evaluate the efficacy of bear studies closer. The greatest utility of bear defense is at 3 meters and the stopping distance on average of an aborted attack is 1 meter. I don't have the reference on the tip of my fingers right now, but if pressed, I can find it fairly quickly. But that is what the studies show. The efficacy of this truly mythical cone of bear protection at 70-100 feet is a pure myth. Read the studies on which distance the spray truly aborts an attack. It is not at 70-100 feet in the majority of instances.

[22-rimfire]

One meter, that would sure raise the old hackles and I don't think that person would ever think of a wild bear as a cuddly animal again.

[skidder]

Don't rely on bear spray alone unless you can predict the weather. I fired some into a light breeze and became defenseless. Bear spray to compliment your 44?..... Yah, I can live with that.:)

I've encountered several bears while hunting and hiking. Most of the time they just run off. However, there were a couple standoffs that were kinda spooky. One ended when my buddy pulled his 357 from his holster and cocked the hammer. The other one lasted about a minute long. I tried yelling and waving my arm, but he just stood there staring and would not leave the trail. I finally opened and closed the bolt on my 30-06 and he took off.

[Lost Sheep]

Don't rely on bear spray alone unless you can predict the weather. I fired some into a light breeze and became defenseless. Bear spray to compliment your 44?..... Yah, I can live with that.:)

Curious, I am wondering what brand of spray was defeated by a light breeze and how old it was? (Beyond expiration date?)

Spray velocity of the better brands is around 60 MPH, so they should be good even against a headwind of 30. Of course, one would be well advised to be moving sideways while deploying the spray in that circumstance.


I've encountered several bears while hunting and hiking. Most of the time they just run off. However, there were a couple standoffs that were kinda spooky. One ended when my buddy pulled his 357 from his holster and cocked the hammer. The other one lasted about a minute long. I tried yelling and waving my arm, but he just stood there staring and would not leave the trail. I finally opened and closed the bolt on my 30-06 and he took off.
Yep, bears are smart. Unpredictable, and smart.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Wow, how has this thread gone so far off the tracks.
I think that, while the thread has gone off the track of the specific question in the original post, it has stayed on the point of the O.P.'s larger question. That is, how to maintain greatest safety for my hiking companions and myself. The O.P. seems to agree that the wanderings of the thread have proved useful (see post #24).

For the information presented here, shared in a civil manner, this is a very useful thread for a wide audience and I intend to link to it as a resource for similar threads in the future. It is no wonder to me that the moderators are leaving the thread open.

Your post (partially quoted here) is no less valuable, for it is reasoned and reasonable for which I thank you.

Respectfully,

Lost Sheep

[Alaska444]

Interesting details in the famous, perhaps infamous, bear spray study most often cited.

Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

. . .In 67 spray incidents for which distance was reported, the mean distance between user and bear at the time of spraying was 4 m (range 1–15 m). One user commented that he had ‘‘squarely hit the bear’’ at 10 m, although at distances 5 m success was variable. When bears were sprayed at 3 m (33 cases), the spray always enveloped the bear, with only one resulting in a failure to deter the attacking bear. . .

. . . In 64% (9 of 14) of these close encounters, brown bears charged the person(s) before being sprayed. In 85% (12 of 14; G1 ¼ 7.9, P ¼ 0.019) of aggressive encounters with brown bears, bear spray stopped the bear’s aggressive behavior; in 12% (1 of 14) the person spraying the bear was not injured, but the bear charged through the fog, halting 1 m from the person before moving off. In 12% (1 of 14) of aggressive encounters the bear contacted and slightly injured the person in the interaction (i.e., deep scratches requiring stitches). . .

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf


Pepper spray is not very effective greater than 5 meters out. Many of the bears will not stop until 1 meter and some will still hit the person rendering modest injury. This whole notion that a bear will stop in a cone of pepper spray 70-100 feet away is not what the researchers have found analyzing the cases retrospectively. 3 meters is only about 10 feet. that is not much room for error.:what:

[skidder]

Curious, I am wondering what brand of spray was defeated by a light breeze and how old it was?
I believe it was UDAP. The problem was not the initial speed that it left the can, but how it just lingered in the air. I sprayed it off the trail into a canyon and I coughed for three switchbacks up the canyon (not just from the initial blast). It doesn't just burn, but it feels like the oxygen is sucked from your lungs and it leaves you gasping and coughing. I don't doubt it's effectiveness or the speed at which it leaves the can, but how far before the speed dissipates and gets blown back. It's not a thick mist that just falls to the ground, but it's more like a pollen or powder that lingures. Imagine a baseball pitcher throwing a baseball over 90 mph into the wind (no big deal right). Now replace the ball with a handful of dust or powder. It won't be long before the dust/powder is right back on him.

[Lost Sheep]

Skidder, thanks for the speedy and candid reply. I suppose that since a person is more likely to surprise a bear approaching from DOWNWIND, this lends less support to spray preference.

Again, thanks.

Lost Sheep

[AKMtnRunner]

Alaska 444 and Skidder are right. Anyone planning on carrying spray needs to buy a second canister or use an older one about to expire for testing. While it may be sensed by someone 70-100 feet away, it won't have a serious effect on a bear.

I don't know why you'd want to use the spray on a bear that far away anyways. Usually when i see a bear, We don't notice each other until we're about that range apart and neither want to get closer. Panicly shooting the spray (or firearm) at that range is irresponsible and stupid as you'd end up with an empty canister and likely as much pepper in your eyes and respiratory system as the bear. The bear is probably just going about their day. Or if it is aggressive, wait till it's 10 meters so it can get a real strong dose. Of course there are exceptions like if a bruin is repeatedly harassing a camp, then that long gun may be in order.

Still, when I read the Buffalo Bore owners's comments, I got the sense that he's a little out of touch with the wild. Maybe the only times he gets out are to hunt so his impression of bear encounters are a bit skewed towards the "life or death" frame of mind. If we all behaved as the ammo company owner suggests, that of dispatching any bear that doesn't immediately run away, our wilderness will lose a great deal. That's another reason to prefer using spray; which will also deter aggressive bear behavior. Wonderful if momma bear has a spicy experience with humans and then teaches her cubs to not charge other humans.

Having an itchy trigger finger just isn't necessary with the right bear sense.

[Lost Sheep]

Alaska 444 and Skidder are right. Anyone planning on carrying spray needs to buy a second canister or use an older one about to expire for testing. While it may be sensed by someone 70-100 feet away, it won't have a serious effect on a bear.

I don't know why you'd want to use the spray on a bear that far away anyways. Usually when i see a bear, We don't notice each other until we're about that range apart and neither want to get closer. Panicly shooting the spray (or firearm) at that range is irresponsible and stupid as you'd end up with an empty canister and likely as much pepper in your eyes and respiratory system as the bear. The bear is probably just going about their day. Or if it is aggressive, wait till it's 10 meters so it can get a real strong dose. Of course there are exceptions like if a bruin is repeatedly harassing a camp, then that long gun may be in order.

Still, when I read the Buffalo Bore owners's comments, I got the sense that he's a little out of touch with the wild. Maybe the only times he gets out are to hunt so his impression of bear encounters are a bit skewed towards the "life or death" frame of mind. If we all behaved as the ammo company owner suggests, that of dispatching any bear that doesn't immediately run away, our wilderness will lose a great deal. That's another reason to prefer using spray; which will also deter aggressive bear behavior. Wonderful if momma bear has a spicy experience with humans and then teaches her cubs to not charge other humans.

Having an itchy trigger finger just isn't necessary with the right bear sense.
Exactly

[22-rimfire]

One thing to consider about Buffalo Bore (comments) is that it is in his self interest for people to buy his products in substantial quantities. I am not saying that is the case, because I lean toward MtnRunner's comments on this topic.

We saw what happened in terms of gun buying starting just prior to the 2008 presidential elections (about now actually month-wise) and that resulted in substantial money spent on firearms and ammunition. The buying has continued especially in terms of firearms.

What actually happens when bear spray becomes out of date? Potency decrease? Propellent decrease?

[j1]

It is not that hard to kill a brown bear. The trick is to stop him from killing you, and that is not easy

[j1]

It is not that hard to kill a brown bear. The trick is to stop him from killing you, and that is not easy.

[Certaindeaf]

You can say that again.

[Alaska444]

Alaska 444 and Skidder are right. Anyone planning on carrying spray needs to buy a second canister or use an older one about to expire for testing. While it may be sensed by someone 70-100 feet away, it won't have a serious effect on a bear.

I don't know why you'd want to use the spray on a bear that far away anyways. Usually when i see a bear, We don't notice each other until we're about that range apart and neither want to get closer. Panicly shooting the spray (or firearm) at that range is irresponsible and stupid as you'd end up with an empty canister and likely as much pepper in your eyes and respiratory system as the bear. The bear is probably just going about their day. Or if it is aggressive, wait till it's 10 meters so it can get a real strong dose. Of course there are exceptions like if a bruin is repeatedly harassing a camp, then that long gun may be in order.

Still, when I read the Buffalo Bore owners's comments, I got the sense that he's a little out of touch with the wild. Maybe the only times he gets out are to hunt so his impression of bear encounters are a bit skewed towards the "life or death" frame of mind. If we all behaved as the ammo company owner suggests, that of dispatching any bear that doesn't immediately run away, our wilderness will lose a great deal. That's another reason to prefer using spray; which will also deter aggressive bear behavior. Wonderful if momma bear has a spicy experience with humans and then teaches her cubs to not charge other humans.

Having an itchy trigger finger just isn't necessary with the right bear sense.
Actually, the reason I put the quote by Tim Sundles, i.e. the "Buffalo Bore guy," is to show a deep contrast to the absurd bear management philosophies of the last few decades. In Anchorage, Rick Sinnott is punishing PEOPLE for bear encounters by issuing garbage fines instead of doing something about the out of control bear population in and around the Anchorage area.

If you look at a map of Anchorage, it is surrounded by Chugach state park where hunting bears was denied for 30 years. Now there is a token 10 permits given out with the hope that only 3 will be harvested every year. The people of Anchorage are outraged by this approach.

Outrage builds in Anchorage after bear attacks

Thomas Wood, a longtime Eagle River resident, said Anchorage's approach to bear management is "nonsense."

"They should shoot all the bears in town," he said. "Now they are coddling the bears so people are getting hurt. It is so stupid. The inmates are running the asylum."

Sinnott is not going to abandon old themes.

"I am still going to hammer on people about garbage this year," he said.

Last year, the city replaced more than 20 municipal trash containers in municipal parks with bear-resistant cans. This summer, the city plans to replace industrial trash bins with bear-resistant cans in areas where there are restaurants and apartment complexes.

For the first time, people who improperly dispose of their trash will be fined instead of being issued warnings. Fines for a first offense range from $50 to $300, up to $600 for a second offense.

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2009205337_apusanchoragebears.html

In a previous interview, Rich Sinnott noted that Chugach is a bear factory that pumps bears into the system. Surrounded by three sides, Anchorage is the recipient of all of those bears. When I lived in Anchorage in the 1960's, a brown bear in the middle of the city would have been big news.

Today, the F&G of Anchorage and surrounding areas is treating the city limits as if it was an outdoor zoo where the residents WANT to see bears and moose and other wildlife inside the city limits. That is complete lunacy.

In light of that urban "zoo" mentality, TIm Sundles, the "Buffalo Bore guy," sounds much more sound than those yahoos do. In effect, we are now selecting for aggressive bears that will teach their cubs to be aggressive against people. Tim Sundles is stating we need to eliminate the aggressive bears so that the other bears remain afraid of man. If you think that is nuts, so be it, but I believe Tim Sundles has a lot more sense than Rick Sinnott and his minions.

BTW, a quick Google of Tim Sundles will give quite a few examples of his hunting trips. He is a very experienced outdoorsman and hunter. Lets stick to the facts even if you disagree with his statements especially since he is not here to refute false statements against him.

Lastly, Tim Sundles is a bit of local hero in the war against the Feds mismanagement of wolves. He has already tangled with the Feds which makes his statements even more remarkable.

http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/one-spicy-meatball/Content?oid=932577

[Guillermo]

I would bring my largest handgun, 44 magnum at least and this lady

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/black-bear-vs-angry-woman-defending-her-back-porch-guess-who-wins/

[Alaska444]

I would bring my largest handgun, 44 magnum at least and this lady

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/black-bear-vs-angry-woman-defending-her-back-porch-guess-who-wins/
I agree on the .44 magnum, but this is the lady I want backing me up!!

Bear attacks man and dog; wife attacks bear; all survive

According to WHTM and other media reports, the brawl began at about 3 a.m. Monday as Richard Moyer heard the pet dog, a pit bull/husky mix, barking outside. He opened the door to let the dog inside, and the bear followed. Thus began a battle that brought Angela Moyer rushing into the living room to find out what was happening.

She found her 6-foot-6, 300-pound husband on the floor, being attacked by the animal. "The bear was on him. Our dog was in the mix with them. I was like, 'This is crazy.' I just reacted," she said. "There was nothing really going through my mind other than 'Oh, my God, we got to get this bear out of here.'"

Whatever Angela Moyer did, it worked, because the bear swung around and headed for the door. But it knocked her over on the way. She ended up on the outdoor patio. Richard Moyer, despite cuts to his head, face and arms, staggered outside to find the animal attacking his wife, and he threw himself back into the fray. At that point the bear began tearing into his head.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/10/bear-attacks-man-wife-attacks-bear-all-live-to-tell-the-tale.html

[Guillermo]

but this is the lady I want backing me up!!

heck...I might back her up!!!

[TexAg]

The Anchorage bear problem sounds a lot like the Boulder, CO mountain lion problem a few years ago.
Great book that documents it: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0393326349

[Cosmoline]

Today, the F&G of Anchorage and surrounding areas is treating the city limits as if it was an outdoor zoo where the residents WANT to see bears and moose and other wildlife inside the city limits. That is complete lunacy.

Oh it's not that crazy. I rather like the wildlife right here. It makes life more interesting. There needs to be a balance, as in all things. So long as the brownies are minding their own business they do well enough. It's their territory too. And mostly they're peaceable. And the moose pose no serious threat to anyone. It's best to keep things in perspective. Even in bad years Anchorage DRIVERS are exponentially more lethal than our wildlife! They're terrifyingly bad.

[Alaska444]

Oh it's not that crazy. I rather like the wildlife right here. It makes life more interesting. There needs to be a balance, as in all things. So long as the brownies are minding their own business they do well enough. It's their territory too. And mostly they're peaceable. And the moose pose no serious threat to anyone. It's best to keep things in perspective. Even in bad years Anchorage DRIVERS are exponentially more lethal than our wildlife! They're terrifyingly bad.
The two legged critters are almost always more dangerous, but not living in Anchorage any longer, all I have to go by is what is reported. Sorry, it sounds crazy to me to have grizzly bear inside the city limits and yes, there have been quite a few attacks the last decade.

When I lived at the top of O'Malley road in the 1960's, we NEVER saw bear inside the city or ever worried about them outside playing. In those days, the top of O'Malley road was out in the boonies. We had about 5 or six house in a mile or so of road.

What explains the lack of conflict in the 1960's and the increasing conflict with moose, bear and other critters today? We had plenty of moose but never any bear issues. We took no special precautions with garbage or even considered them at all. Is it that we are now in their home? Funny, they left the city to us in the old days. Sounds like they are invading us today in Anchorage because of an overpopulation spilling over from the Chugach state park due to a truly misguided F&G philosophy of game management.

Just saying, it sound crazy to not only allow, but promote that kind of potentially dangerous wildlife within the city limits. I believe it is just asking for trouble allowing them to become tolerant of man and habituated.

Sadly, Anchorage is not the only city that is being invaded by bears and other wildlife. Some places in New Jersey now have a bigger black bear problem than folks in Anchorage. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me. We have bear all over the place here in northern Idaho, but for the most part, they stay away from the suburbs. Folks that live on the edge of the forests, well, that is what they choose. I am glad we don't have folks advocating to let the critters run around with us here in town the way they do in Anchorage. We get deer but the mountain lions and bear stay away. I am thankful for that since we have young grand children.

I respect your opinion, but shucks, I just don't agree.

[skidder]

Packing both a 44 (or larger) and pepper spray is not a bad idea. For years I packed both, but whenever a tussle in the brush would peak my interest...it wasn't the spray I reached for. My first reflex is to go for my Redhawk. For me to go for the spray first, would require hours of additional training.

Make sure its "magnum" spray and not the "derringer" kind you keep in a purse, or European man bag.

[shinyroks]

Now, I don't live in an area with a lot of bear attacks, but have looked into the firearms for areas I hoping to work (was a geologist in gold/silver exploration). I actually found that my choice ended up being a 454 puma in a scabbard on my back or backpack. I load 405 WQ WW at about 1400 out of it, and have clocked the 320? grain Buffalo bore at 2300 fps out of the rifle. Funny thing is you get 11 shots out of a rifle that is actually lighter than a hand cannon, and I can get 4+ shots off in under 1.5 sec. with draw. Accurate at 12" target at 20 yds, and just as fast to draw as a pistol with practice.

[Cosmoline]

Just saying, it sound crazy to not only allow, but promote that kind of potentially dangerous wildlife within the city limits. I believe it is just asking for trouble allowing them to become tolerant of man and habituated.

But they give us an excuse to carry around large rifles and handguns!

[Alaska444]

But they give us an excuse to carry around large rifles and handguns!
Fair enough, can't argue with that.:D

My dad carried a 30-06 in his truck just about all the time when we were up in your part of the country. At least they still allow big guns like you say.

Take care.

[fastest45ever]

epiphany!!!:D

I need to put gun rails on a DA or SA heavy caliber handgun. .475 Linebaugh, .500JRH, .500 Linebaugh Max/or mini.;)

Mount to the gun rail a cannister of high velocity bear spray. It needs to be a narrow cone, or better like that gel stuff they use for shooting BG's in the face.

You pull the gun, aim, fire the bear spray. If that doesn't do the job, the gun is already in firing position. It would work even better with a rifle, or shotgun.

I should have applied for a patent first.:banghead::D

[AKMtnRunner]

In response to Alaska444's comments on the Rick Sinnott and the bear's getting into trash, it comes squarely down to responsible behavior if you live on the edge of town. Sinnott was issuing citations for people putting their overflowing trash cans out on the road a day or more before it was scheduled to be picked up. Of course that is going to attract bear activity. What bear is not going to check out the smell of yesterday's grilled salmon? That's sort of a survival skill of bears that can not be naturally selected out. Is it too much to expect the most affluent demographic part of the city, who can afford to live anywhere but choose to live on the border with the State Park, to put their trash out on the right day?

I'm not a F&G scientist, nor one that is heavily involved with wildlife management enough to have a strong opinion on the matter, but I can say this: there is no substitute for good bear sense nor responsible behavior. I prefer to expect these two qualities of humans before endorsing eliminating bears. Perhaps one day we will move to authorize open hunting on bears (and the crazy moose population across ALL of Anchorage) and maybe that is the solution. I don't know. All I do know is that we can go a long ways to prevent ill encounters before making a decision like that.

[Alaska444]

In response to Alaska444's comments on the Rick Sinnott and the bear's getting into trash, it comes squarely down to responsible behavior if you live on the edge of town. Sinnott was issuing citations for people putting their overflowing trash cans out on the road a day or more before it was scheduled to be picked up. Of course that is going to attract bear activity. What bear is not going to check out the smell of yesterday's grilled salmon? That's sort of a survival skill of bears that can not be naturally selected out. Is it too much to expect the most affluent demographic part of the city, who can afford to live anywhere but choose to live on the border with the State Park, to put their trash out on the right day?

I'm not a F&G scientist, nor one that is heavily involved with wildlife management enough to have a strong opinion on the matter, but I can say this: there is no substitute for good bear sense nor responsible behavior. I prefer to expect these two qualities of humans before endorsing eliminating bears. Perhaps one day we will move to authorize open hunting on bears (and the crazy moose population across ALL of Anchorage) and maybe that is the solution. I don't know. All I do know is that we can go a long ways to prevent ill encounters before making a decision like that.
Dear AKMtnRunner,

It has been a long time since I lived in Anchorage, but I will tell you that I don't worry a bit about putting my trash out the day before they pick it up. We have a huge bear population and the woods are about 1 mile from our house. The deep woods that is on the edge of miles and miles and miles of northern wilderness. Yet, we have no bear problems at all in this area.

When we lived at the top of O'Malley road in the 1960's right in the middle of the boonies, no bear problems at all as well. Failing to understand the relationship between a hunted bear population and one that is not I believe is at the heart of the Anchorage bear problems. Just my opinion, but even Rick Sinnott is now talking about token hunting pressure on bears in Chugach. My goodness, 10 permits!! Yeah, that will really bring a solution.

So, once again, they are indeed punishing people with garbage citations for out of control bear behavior that they have created by failing to teach them the fear of man which is not hard to do. That is not wiping them out my friend, putting them in their place, absolutely. Until that happens, big brother in Anchorage will hand out citations to the people and do nothing about the real problem, over population of bears within the city limits. Sorry, just makes no sense to me at all and I pray to God that that mentality does not migrate down stream to us any time soon. I enjoy that bears are actively hunted in Idaho, at least the black bears anyway. At some point, they will need to start hunting the recovered grizzly population here as well, obviously in a controlled fashion. Just the way it is.

Let them have the woods, the cities and towns belong to us, pure and simple.

[beag_nut]

I have to agree with most of the people who recommend revolvers, and bear spray. There are numerous youtube videos showing how well bear-deterrent works, simply because it is designed to, and to do it well. A revolver's reliability is beyond question (if a major brand). If that's how you want to go, learn how to be accurate against a moving (small - the head) target.

HOWEVER,
If you can find it in your library, read the compilation of the Lewis & Clark's Expedition authored by Stephen Ambrose something like 20 years ago. He makes a point of illustrating how the members of the party were COMPLETELY surprised (and almost destroyed) by how resilient and unstoppable the grizzly bears were. And they weren't city guys; most of the group had been soldiers in the Revolutionary War, and quite accustomed to shooting and killing.
If you go up against a brown bear you might stand a chance with most of today's available center-fire large caliber handguns. But grizzlies are something much harder to deal with. The recommendations for bear spray are quite valid.

[Alaska444]

you claim that you can grab a rifle out of a scabbard, lever out 4 hits at 20 yds in 1.5 seconds? I say that your watch stopped, bud, to be nice about it. :-)
Some folks practice and prefer rifle to bear spray. Actually, DLP studies may support this approach just as much as the pepper spray studies support that approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-AVr7gNmrU&feature=relmfu

Maybe not 1.5 seconds, but not bad at all. He did get the first shot off in that time frame. With proper loads, you may only need one good hit to stop the critter.

[Cosmoline]

Rick has been retired for a few years, you know. And the people of Anchorage decide how to address wildlife here. So I'm not really seeing why this is such a big deal. It's just another way of approaching the matter, and it actually works pretty well. I'm also not sure where you got the idea there were only 10 bear hunts allowed in the Chugach. Hunting is more restricted in the GMU subparts near Anchorage's built-up area in the main part of the state park, but that's not really viable hunting area anyway. Far too many people are running around in there for safety. If you want Chugach bears in GMU 14 you just go a little bit further out and you're free to harvest one brown every few years and one black every year with no closed season in some cases:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingmaps.bygmu&gmu=14

And go further out into the mountains into neighboring GMU's and they get more generous. To say the bear in the area aren't hunted is simply incorrect. The reason they keep coming is because the wilderness is a bear factory and their food sources--salmon and moose--are in the city. As long as garbage bears and their enablers are dealt with and the people use common sense, there's not much of an issue.

[Alaska444]

Rick has been retired for a few years, you know. And the people of Anchorage decide how to address wildlife here. So I'm not really seeing why this is such a big deal. It's just another way of approaching the matter, and it actually works pretty well. I'm also not sure where you got the idea there were only 10 bear hunts allowed in the Chugach. Hunting is more restricted in the GMU subparts near Anchorage's built-up area in the main part of the state park, but that's not really viable hunting area anyway. Far too many people are running around in there for safety. If you want Chugach bears in GMU 14 you just go a little bit further out and you're free to harvest one brown every few years and one black every year with no closed season in some cases:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingmaps.bygmu&gmu=14

And go further out into the mountains into neighboring GMU's and they get more generous. To say the bear in the area aren't hunted is simply incorrect. The reason they keep coming is because the wilderness is a bear factory and their food sources--salmon and moose--are in the city. As long as garbage bears and their enablers are dealt with and the people use common sense, there's not much of an issue.
Dear Cosmoline,

As I have noted in a couple of prior posts, I don't live in Anchorage any longer so I can only glean what the situation is from what is in the news and print on the internet. Rick Sinnott may have retired after 28 years, but he is still very active in the bear debate in Anchorage and he is very active in writing about the situation. An interesting article he wrote a couple of months ago I believe belies his approach. It seems he is MORE concerned about keeping a thriving bear population with the Anchorage city limits than he is about the consequences of that many bears in an urban setting and the difficulties of habituated bears.

Is bear population growing in Anchorage, Alaska?
Rick Sinnott | Aug 22, 2012

The number of bears killed in recent years is too high to sustain, based on existing population estimates. Shooting more bears than the number that can be replaced by reproduction or immigration means that local bear populations could be decreasing instead of increasing. Yet some people are adamant that the Anchorage bear population is increasing every year. Just like the mosquitoes.

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/bear-population-growing-anchorage-alaska?page=0,0

The most interesting aspect of this article is the comments at the bottom which included the involvement of Rick Sinnott as well. I don't live there, nor vote there so my opinion is only my own, but shucks, like I said earlier, glad folks don't want to see bear running around town here in Northern Idaho. In the woods, yes, best running away from us, but in town, doesn't seem we have much tolerance for that. If that is the way you folks wish to live, so be it but it sounds nuts to me to protect a large bear population within an urban setting.:what:

Once again, just my own opinion, but I am glad we had no bear problem at all when I was a kid in Alaska. Not sure what has changed since then, but we never considered them as kids running around in the woods behind our house at the top of O'Malley road. Sadly, that may not be very safe today, but it was nearly 50 years ago. Why??

[Alaska444]

Here is another article the next day by Rick Sinnott. The comments at the bottom of the page underscore a lack of consensus on bears in the city limits. I like the following comment:

by AKgasman | August 22, 2012 - 12:23pm
Agressive bears should hunted down and shot!

by AKgasman | August 22, 2012 - 12:21pm

Read Sinntt's claftrap before did not need to read it again. Any Time they close a trail because of bears we have too many bears. just Old timer who can remember back when Anchorage did not not have any bears.or moose.We ate them all. A child could wander any where in the Anchorage bowel with out a problem.

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaskas-largest-city-bear-infested-some-residents-seem-think?page=0,3

I agree, aggressive bears should be shot.

[skidder]

I agree, aggressive bears should be shot.

I agree.... and believe they should all be hunted, even if its with a limited amount of tags. The reason they are aggressive is because they are not hunted.
I grew up in the NW corner of Montana. A place where a back road bike ride and playing in the woods was never a danger. This is not the case anymore. Between the cougars, bears, and wolves, one dares not lose sight of their little one. It's like a big game preserve, and it has cost Montanans hundreds of jobs. This corner of Montana has the highest in unemployment, but yet it's one of the richest in natural resources? The animals have more rights than the humans. If you have to defend yourself in the woods, around here, the motto is: Shoot, Shovel, and Shut-up... the three S's. If you don't you better have a body part in a bag on your court date.

[Robert]

Well this wandered off...