Interesting Article on the Birth of Ny Gun Laws


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Redlg155
October 4, 2012, 08:57 AM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_strange_birth_of_ny_gun_laws_QJmHRpczvWipydklC80HYM


From the NY Post.. I found this quite interesting and somewhat amusing.

Young toughs took to sewing the pockets of their coats shut, so that cops couldn’t plant firearms on them, and many gangsters stashed their weapons inside their girlfriends’ “bird cages” — wire-mesh fashion contraptions around which women would wind their hair.


Why didn't I think of this!!! This could open up some business opportunities for Women CCW.

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Curator
October 4, 2012, 10:58 AM
Both the "Sullivan Act" and N.Y. State's convoluted patchwork of County and City laws are a perfect haven/cash-cow for corrupt politicians and police who "administer" access to firearms permits. In one county where I lived a concealed weapon permit was easy to obtain as long as you were seen at the annual Democrat fund raising dinner ($100 per plate) In another county it required a $1000 "donation" to the judge's reelection campaign. Then there are the counties that require graduation from their gun safety course run by their off-duty (not really) sheriff's department deputies (for cash) In the class I took, the deputies also collected for their local chapter of the PBA expecting all of us to anti-up at least a $20 bill right in the beginning. (no checks, thank you)

People complain about how hard it is to get a pistol permit in New York State or even in the City, but actually it is easy if you have connections and money. I finally got fed up and moved out of the "corruptocracy" of New Yawk, leaving behind the crime, union-thugs, taxes, restrictions, permits, inspections, and regulations, not to mention totally crooked one-party politics. Come to the old South young man where people still live free!

Midwest
October 4, 2012, 11:02 AM
Interesting straight forward article.

" Every state but Illinois has some form of concealed-carry permission — although some, like New York, California and New Jersey, are heavily restricted. Some sort of reciprocity is needed.

Meanwhile, savor the irony of an edict written by a corrupt politician to save his bad guys from the electric chair’s now being used against law-abiding citizens from other states."

scaatylobo
October 4, 2012, 12:48 PM
If you are stating facts then please check before you print.

I had lived in NYC for 25 years and then moved to Western NY.

NYC has its own laws [ should not be legal ] and NY State seems to also have STATE laws that are not part of the city laws.

In NY State you can get a CCW with little of no problems at all.

Have had mine for 36 years [ prior to becoming an LEO ] and it took a few months .

It is harder today due to so many requesting them,but about 5 of my close friends just got theirs and they are enjoying the freedom to CCW as a citizen should.

We do need NYS to allow reciprocity with all other CCW states.

MedWheeler
October 4, 2012, 01:12 PM
Scaatylobo, the comments regarding NYS/NYC laws in both the article and following comments are fact-based, but are relative in relation to other states. You'll never convince anyone residing in Florida, Arizona, Vermont, etc that NYS carry laws offer the same liberties they enjoy, especially when the State cannot even reign in the City.
I don't think anyone said one cannot get a carry permit in New York (State.) It was just pointed out that it's not as easy as in the majority of other jurisdictions.
I agree with you that it's a shame that New York City and New York State have to be, for purposes of discussions of 2A rights, clarified as being different from one another. The only other similar example I can think of that's even close to that situation is the differences between California and the City of Los Angeles, though the state's firearms laws seem to be more restrictive than those of NYS, and the city's seem to be less restrictive than those of NYC.

pseudonymity
October 4, 2012, 02:03 PM
In NY State you can get a CCW with little of no problems at all.

Have had mine for 36 years [ prior to becoming an LEO ] and it took a few months .

It is harder today due to so many requesting them,but about 5 of my close friends just got theirs and they are enjoying the freedom to CCW as a citizen should.

The timeframe, cost and availability of CCW in NY state outside of NYC varies widely. In many counties, you may get a license for home and range use, but not CCW. That is actually the default mode for many licensing agents (county judges mostly). For instance, Saratoga county is currently taking over a year to process applications, mainly due to the fact that the mandatory safety course is scheduled out that long. In some counties, the waiting period could be a few weeks and CCW is the default (no license restrictions).

Outside of NYC, NY is a strange and fractured place in terms of gun laws. Local laws in several cities restrict CCW, each licensing agent is free to add any obstacles to the pistol licensing process as they see fit and we are still stuck with the AWB.

OTOH, FTF transfers are legal for all long guns, ammo is not really restricted in most cases and most upstate communities outside a few cities have a fairly active gun culture (clubs, LGS nearby, etc).

One ironic thing about pistols in NY is that once you have an unrestricted permit, there are few places you can not carry, and private signs restricting carry are pretty much non-existent.

Ryanxia
October 4, 2012, 03:38 PM
I couldn't imagine living like that. I still complain that we have to fill out paperwork for NFA items. :D

Kenneth
October 4, 2012, 04:40 PM
One ironic thing about pistols in NY is that once you have an unrestricted permit, there are few places you can not carry, and private signs restricting carry are pretty much non-existent.

Speaking of irony.
At least here in western New York, it seems more self defense friendly here than in some other so called "gun friendly" states. I can't recall any SD shooting that the shooter was prosecuted or even had his or her gun confiscated.
It's nice to be able to have any kind of gun you want, but it's better to be able to use it when need arises.

blackguns
October 4, 2012, 05:38 PM
NY is a weird multi-personality state. Some areas have draconian restrictions as tight as any in the country. In WNY and the Southern Tier you might as well be in Texas once you have your permit. The permit is a hassle but once your in the "club" it's pretty easy to deal with.

The deputy that finger printed me for my permit years ago was telling stories about his on duty shooting incident and giving me shooting tips while inking my fingers. He could not have been more Pro CCW.

It's just a weird state. The horrible laws in NYC get the press but most of us in WNY don't deal with that. Upstate NY is as Red as NYC is Blue.

leftyz
October 4, 2012, 05:58 PM
I'll be moving to NY soon, I just wish I could take my handguns with me. Stupid state doesnt even allow me to have possession of them until I get a permit..

Have to leave them here and have them shipped after I HOPEFULLY get my permit.

k_dawg
October 4, 2012, 06:55 PM
"A right delayed is a right denied."

Kenneth
October 4, 2012, 08:28 PM
I'll be moving to NY soon, I just wish I could take my handguns with me. Stupid state doesnt even allow me to have possession of them until I get a permit..

Have to leave them here and have them shipped after I HOPEFULLY get my permit.
New York State Penal Law Article 35 defines under what circumstances an individual is justified in using force, especially deadly force to defend life or property. It's fairly easy to understand and not overly long. I suggest you read it.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm

Warp
October 4, 2012, 08:40 PM
It's nice to be able to have any kind of gun you want, but it's better to be able to use it when need arises.

Many (most?) of the people outside of New York :barf: get both.

Nickel Plated
October 4, 2012, 08:41 PM
Love the title of the article

"The strange birth of NY's gun laws"

A crooked politician disarming the citizens so that the thugs that work for him can do their jobs more effectively? Nothing strange about it. Seems like standard operating procedure to me.

JellyJar
October 4, 2012, 09:45 PM
Here is an idea.

Given the "fractured" nature of New York State's may issue CCW laws and of course NYC's as well, I think it is almost certain that over a long period of time people have been illegally discriminated against when it comes to the issuance of handgun permits on the basis of race, religion, etc. If so then it should be possible to challenge the constitutionally of NY's handgun laws under the various Federal Civil Right laws now in affect.

Alan Gura, are you listening?

627PCFan
October 5, 2012, 03:53 PM
Alan Gura, are you listening?

Hes busy mopping the floor with Ganslers A.. right now.

Clayton86
October 6, 2012, 10:36 AM
Leftyz why would you do a crazy thing like move to NY it sucks lol.

I'v lived in NY my whole life minus tech school and when the guard sends me away. Myself and a buddy from school who also happens to be in my unit applied for a Pistol Permit and were held up saying everything checks out references are good but we need to pay $500 to get a psych eval because we put military on our applications which we were told to do that it would "help". I'v put mine on hold till we get back from this deployment and see if there is anyway around this "fee" I got no prob talking to a shrink to see if I'm crazy I know I will pass that but I don't feel like paying $500 to have some one say I'm not crazy from the military.

22-rimfire
October 6, 2012, 10:59 AM
From the Article >

The dedicated lifelong “public servant” left behind an estate valued at more than $2 million.

That is quite a lot of money for a public servant especially during this time period. Corruption. My understanding is that most of the early gun laws were used to restrict certain groups of people from legally carrying a gun. This is a social injustice! The newer laws in most states make it much easier and equatable to obtain a CCW permit.

Carl N. Brown
October 6, 2012, 12:15 PM
Michael A. Walsh, "The strange birth of NY’s gun laws", New York Post, 15 Jan 2012.

A keeper of an article, but nothing new to me.

Suzanne Novak, "Why the New York State System for Obtaining a License to Carry a Concealed Weapon is Unconstitutional", Fordham Urban Law Journal (November, 1998).
www.saf.org/LawReviews/Novak1.html

That's unconstitutional in violating New York State Constitution on due process and equal justice in the manner that gun licenses and permits are handled in contrast to how non-gun laws requiring licenses or permits are handled.

H.L. Menken had a classic article about NY crusaders attempting to export the Sullivan Law to the federal level.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-25.html
H. L. Mencken, "The Uplifters Try It Again", Baltimore Sun, 30 Nov 1925.

I wasn't around then (on a bad day I feel like I was around in the 1920s) but I was aware of gun issues in the 1960s when Madison Avenue ad exec Carl Bakal started a crusade to export NYC style gun control with articles like "This Very Day a Gun May Kill You!" and his book "NO Right to Bear Arms" (reviewed negatively by Library Journal as inaccurate and biased but touted by the "unbiased" news media as the "Unsafe at Any Speed" against the gun industry).

It is like every so often folks in the rest of America have some New Yorker (now its Michael Boomberg) trying to force the Sullivan Act on us.

Actually Tennessee did have a discretionary carry permit system at the whim of county sheriffs (some counties were virtually no issue), and application for permission to purchase with a waiting period up to 15 days, but we got over it and don't want it exported to us.

22-rimfire
October 6, 2012, 01:28 PM
The Sullivan Act was passed just in time for Prohibition so that the criminals involved in the sale of illegal alcoholic beverage would not have to worry about regular folks having a firearm on their person. Prohibition didn't work. Gun laws don't work now.

Cosmoline
October 6, 2012, 02:43 PM
Good thread!

It reminds me of the line from "The Thin Man":

Lieutenant John Guild: You got a pistol permit?
Nick Charles: No.
Lieutenant John Guild: Ever heard of the Sullivan Act?
Nora Charles: Oh, that's all right, we're married.

230RN
October 6, 2012, 03:28 PM
^ Heh. I remember that line. Reminds me of the Sherlock Holmes scene: "Have you got your revolver, Watson?" "Always, Holmes."

A few suggestions for Curator, Post #2:

I finally got fed up and moved out of the "corruptocracy" of New Yawk, leaving behind the crime, union-thugs, taxes, restrictions, permits, inspections, and regulations, not...

1. You mispelled New Yawk. Should be Noo Yawk, the way it's pronounced.

2. For better tongue-trippingness, maybe you should say "graftocracy" instead of "corruptocracy."

I emigrated from Noo Yawk at an early age (20-ish) and was amazed at the "free air" out here in Colorado. Why, there were handguns for sale right there in store counters where everybody could see them through the glass. Gasp!

For six months after I bought my first handgun here, I couldn't help feeling like a criminal --closing the curtains before I examined it, etc.

Former Bvooklynite (that's the correct spelling and pronunciation for it),

Terry, 230RN

KTXdm9
October 6, 2012, 03:38 PM
Good read, thanks for posting. I can't say that I'm surprised at all by the story.

hang fire
October 7, 2012, 01:29 AM
Both the "Sullivan Act" and N.Y. State's convoluted patchwork of County and City laws are a perfect haven/cash-cow for corrupt politicians and police who "administer" access to firearms permits. In one county where I lived a concealed weapon permit was easy to obtain as long as you were seen at the annual Democrat fund raising dinner ($100 per plate) In another county it required a $1000 "donation" to the judge's reelection campaign. Then there are the counties that require graduation from their gun safety course run by their off-duty (not really) sheriff's department deputies (for cash) In the class I took, the deputies also collected for their local chapter of the PBA expecting all of us to anti-up at least a $20 bill right in the beginning. (no checks, thank you)

People complain about how hard it is to get a pistol permit in New York State or even in the City, but actually it is easy if you have connections and money. I finally got fed up and moved out of the "corruptocracy" of New Yawk, leaving behind the crime, union-thugs, taxes, restrictions, permits, inspections, and regulations, not to mention totally crooked one-party politics. Come to the old South young man where people still live free!
The Sullivan act was/is racist to the bone, when implemented it's sole purpose was to deny firearms to blacks and swarthy skin colored southern Eupropean immigrants etc..

Redlg155
October 7, 2012, 01:57 AM
I think we should be subjected to mandatory viewing of Leonardo Dicaprio's historically accurate and captivating performance in "Gangs of New York". I praise him in my best Jack Black voice in Nacho Libre "He's the Best"!!

I'm joking guys. Really. Just sayin...

22250Rem
October 7, 2012, 09:05 PM
Anytime the topic of NY gun law is brought up it is imperative, in the name of accuracy, to specify if the topic concerns the NYC/ Long Island area or the rest of the state. I'm in western NYS, Monroe County, Rochester area; have had a pistol permit since 1974 with 7 pistols on the permit currently. I might as well be in a different state when it comes to the stuff usually heard under the heading of "NY Gun Laws". My permit is not valid in NYC, (not that I ever go there) and neither is anyone else's no matter where you're from. The NYC area might as well be a foreign country when it comes to gun laws. As a previous poster mentioned that all you ever hear of is NYC gun laws is the God's honest truth. You never hear about the rest of the state and it's like two different states in one. My sister got her permit a couple years ago and I sold her my S&W J-Frame snubby .38 (a 642) at a gun show. County Clerk had an office set up at the show and we did the transfer off my permit, onto hers, right there...Try THAT down in the NYC area.

k_dawg
October 10, 2012, 08:39 PM
Anytime the topic of NY gun law is brought up it is imperative, in the name of accuracy, to specify if the topic concerns the NYC/ Long Island area or the rest of the state. I'm in western NYS, Monroe County, Rochester area; have had a pistol permit since 1974 with 7 pistols on the permit currently..

By 'pistol permit', do you mean to purchase, or to carry loaded on/about your person?

If one must require permission from the gov't, it is not a Right.

Pilot
October 11, 2012, 12:39 PM
[quote]By 'pistol permit', do you mean to purchase, or to carry loaded on/about your person?


He's talking about a permit just to purchase a handgun in NYS, not a concealed carry permit. No thanks.

leftyz
October 11, 2012, 01:08 PM
By 'pistol permit', do you mean to purchase, or to carry loaded on/about your person?


He's talking about a permit just to purchase a handgun in NYS, not a concealed carry permit. No thanks.
Actually, to be more correct, they are at times one and the same. It depends on if the pistol permit has unrestricted conceal carry, hunting / range conceal carry, or dwelling only carry listed on it.

Most likely if he's had his that long, its unrestricted conceal carry.

22250Rem
October 11, 2012, 07:41 PM
Sorry for the confusion.... Around here "pistol permit" means "carry permit". Or as it says on the front; "LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IS HEREBY GRANTED". Along with my picture,name address etc.. On the back all 7 of the handguns are listed by make,caliber & serial number, along with three conditions which are: 1. It is revocable at any time 2. It expires when revoked 3. Not valid to carry a weapon in New York City unless approved by the Police Commissioner of that city. Below that is my thumb print. My sister got her first permit a couple years ago and it's the same deal. I can purchase any handgun as long as my background check isn't expired and the FFL dealer then gives me some paperwork which I take to the county clerk, pay a small fee and they type it up on my permit and I go back to the dealer and pick it up. When I sold my 38 snubby to my sister we had to fill out a form for transfering a pistol off my permit onto hers and it had to be notarized but the county clerks office is also a notary so it wasn't a problem.

Hugo
October 12, 2012, 01:16 AM
FYI please remember the New York Post is usually very biased and "Out of line with reality". I guess even a broken clock is right 2 times a day.

freyasman
October 12, 2012, 02:55 PM
I was told this same story back in 1990 or 91 by a man named Matt Talty, when I was working at Carter's Country in Houston. He was a regular at the store, and IIRC he was an attorney working for the city back then. (His father was also the Doctor who delivered me:) Small world, huh?

parsimonious_instead
October 13, 2012, 08:48 AM
When I tell people outside of my state that you need a permit just to own a handgun, I get a look of disbelief. When I tell people inside of my state that most states don't require a permit just to own a handgun, I get a look of disbelief.
I'm glad I endured the pistol permit process - I thoroughly enjoy handguns, and since so many people find it daunting, I find it sort of a satisfying and "exclusive" thing to have.
My advice to anyone contemplating obtaining the permit it this: stop thinking about it, and just do it. It's just a matter of time, and paperwork.
Here are some things I'd recommend to people do:
If you think you might want more than one handgun, you can buy more than one to start out with (you buy the gun(s) near the beginning of the process, because it's 'registered' to your permit).
If you have a spouse, kid, parent, etc that wants to go for their permit, they can list your guns, too.
If you've been arrested, whether convicted or not, you'll need to obtain the "disposition" records. Try to get working on those, especially if they occurred a while back and/or in another state.
Remember that you need four "character references." I would work on getting four people to agree to provide them before you start the process, and perhaps asking a fifth or sixth person as a backup in case someone changes their mind or becomes otherwise unavailable.

Let it be known that I think we're unfairly encumbered here in NYS with this process - I don't support it, but I'm willing to share my insights into how you can make things a bit easier on yourself, although it certainly is a pretty "locked down" system that can't be sped up or gamed.

Millwright
October 13, 2012, 05:43 PM
Well the story does have the appearance of verisimilitude . Too bad the writer didn't dig deeper into the history of NYC.

Gangs, particularly around the "Five-Points" preyed upon successive waves of immigrants. Eventually the immigrants discerned the cost of a firearm was less than the cost of "protection" and began to purchase arms to defend themselves and their neighbors/families. On the seedier side, prostitutes and grifters also learned a pistol was a deterant to being shakendown by these gangs.

Sullivan, his henchmen, and all NYC politicians since have have shonw an universal contempt for NYC citizens' inalienable rights, being big on disarming their victims. OTOH, IME, a significant segment of NYC citizenry, being even more contemptuous of their politicians, carry a variety of personal side arms. >MW

Esoxchaser
October 13, 2012, 06:09 PM
Sorry for the confusion.... Around here "pistol permit" means "carry permit". Or as it says on the front; "LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IS HEREBY GRANTED". Along with my picture,name address etc.. On the back all 7 of the handguns are listed by make,caliber & serial number, along with three conditions which are: 1. It is revocable at any time 2. It expires when revoked 3. Not valid to carry a weapon in New York City unless approved by the Police Commissioner of that city.

So if a pistol isn't listed on that license, you can't have it in your possession? That seems rather peculiar, you already underwent an extensive background check to obtain the carry permit, but the nanny state still wants to tell you that you have to limit yourself to guns they listed on your permit? Sounds like a kids game of "Mother may I?"

Carl N. Brown
October 13, 2012, 08:04 PM
Ever so often you see an article on NYC gun laws about how there's about 25,000 legally permitted handguns in NYC and occassionally--attributed to NYPD or ATF--the estimate of one to two million illegal handguns in NYC, usually accompanied by a plug for extending Sullivan Act controls nationwide to solve that problem.

Wikipedia notes: "(Timothy David) Sullivan left no diaries and very few private letters. Autobiographical materials come largely through his own statements in the press of his era."

He ran the gangs in his ward, but he gave the poor food, clothing and coal in the winter, and they voted for him, some up to four times each. During the time of the 1911 Sullivan Act, "Big Tim" Sullivan was suffering from tertiary syphilis, paranoid delusions, claimed he was being spied on and his food was being poisoned. He was institutionized in 1912, escaped his orderlies 31 Aug 1913 and was run over by a train. (The engineer claimed he was laying inert on the tracks.) His family did not report him missing for ten days and he was almost buried in Potter's field. Big guy, tailored suit, diamond cufflinks monogrammed "TDS", undamaged face--the politically appointed coroner signed the death certificate as John Doe. A random policeman assigned to morgue detail recognized the body before it was removed to Potter's field. In 1914 Gotham Film Co. released "The Life of Big Tim Sullivan; Or, From Newsboy to Senator" a silent movie; not so silently his family members fought for seven years over his $2.5 million estate (adjust 1913 $ for inflation = $58 million 2012 $).

22250Rem
October 14, 2012, 05:33 PM
Esoxchaser; You are correct, I'm not supposed to be walking around with pistols that aren't on my permit. That means I can only carry pistols that I legally own, and not someone else's pistol. When you see this media crap about NY gun laws, 99.9% of the time they are talking about New York City, which might as well be a seperate state and there have been proposals in years gone by to turn this into two states. Too bad they never got very far with that idea. If I buy another pistol I just have to go through the federal instant check stuff and take some of the paperwork to the county clerk and they put it on my permit. I don't even recall anything about our waiting period because it usually takes me about a week to get to the clerk's office due to my work schedule and by then it's a non-issue. The LGS I usually frequent is owned by a gunsmith who is also a retired county sheriff. Last time I was at the county clerks office to add something to my permit I got to talking to someone in there about Glocks cause he saw one listed on my permit. So all in all, when it comes to guns, western NY STATE is not what these mainstream media outlets would have you believe.

friscolatchi
October 14, 2012, 10:01 PM
This, but you can have another persons pistols on your permit as well. They don't necessarily have to be in your possesion. For example, I can have my neighbors pistols on my permit and vice versa.

friscolatchi
October 14, 2012, 10:11 PM
This, but you can have another persons pistols on your permit as well. They don't necessarily have to be in your possesion. For example, I can have my neighbors pistols on my permit and vice versa.

22250Rem
October 16, 2012, 08:34 PM
I didn't know you could have your neighbor's pistol on your permit and I forgot that I've heard that someone in your immediate family could also legally use your pistol if your gun is also on their permit (?). Is this true? Everyone I know with a permit has their own pistols and nobody else's. I'm obviously no expert on the subject; and I can't see me using someone else's pistol unless it's just to try it out at the range or something. If I find another one and like it I'll just buy it and have it added to my permit. My sister got her permit a couple years ago and I sold her my J frame S&W .38 mod. 642. If her husband got his permit could the 642 be put on his permit and still stay on hers? I think that may be possible but maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to talk to the retired sheriff that owns the LGS. He's a wealth of information when it comes to questions like that. (And remember; we're NOT talking about the ridiculous gun laws in NY City, which might as well be a different state when it comes to gun laws).

Redlg155
October 16, 2012, 09:57 PM
I'm just thankful that in Florida we can carry whatever we want when the whim strikes us.

friscolatchi
October 17, 2012, 12:45 AM
Rem. my wife has all my pistols on her permit. Red, it is a pita. However there are some benefits. 1. Permit is for life, no renewal. 2. Carry anywhere. Bars, civic events, any where there is no metal detector, except the usual restricted places. 3. No duty to notify PD. But use good judgement.

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