The AK47 of Submachineguns? Veitnam vet talks Swedish K


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wacki
October 4, 2012, 01:30 PM
A Vietnam vet recently told me he sold his M16 for a Carl Gustav M/45 or Swedish K SMG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_M45). It went out of service in 2007.

He told me the Swedish K was simple, easy to maintain and reliable. A lot like the AK47. Both the M16 and the Colt 1911 (which he said probably had it's blue worn off from years in inventory) would practically rust overnight if you didn't clean them twice a day.

Just curious, what's the modern day "AK47" of submachine guns? Something that isn't uber fancy but it simple and reliable even when neglected. I know the MP5 is the most popular SMG, but my limited knowledge can't help but think it's a high performance and high maintenance machine.

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The Lone Haranguer
October 4, 2012, 01:38 PM
Not modern day, but the British Sten and the American M3 fit the "simple" and "reliable" part. The MP5 is far from simple, but also has rifle-like accuracy when needed.

Noah
October 4, 2012, 03:05 PM
The AK of modern SMGs?

http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/pictures/bizon1.gif

PP-19 Bizon. Shares a few parts with the AK. Blowback operated, in either 9mm or 9x18 Mak, fed by a 50-something or 60-something round helical magazine, respectively.

dprice3844444
October 4, 2012, 03:12 PM
its compact and deadly reliable.

rcmodel
October 4, 2012, 03:27 PM
The Uzi would have to fit in there somewhere.

According to Wackypeedia:
From the 1960s through the 1980s, Uzi submachine guns were sold to more military and police markets than any other submachine gun ever made.

rc

dprice3844444
October 4, 2012, 03:30 PM
not to the vietnam era folks

GoWolfpack
October 4, 2012, 03:30 PM
The AK of modern SMGs?

http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/pictures/bizon1.gif

PP-19 Bizon. Shares a few parts with the AK. Blowback operated, in either 9mm or 9x18 Mak, fed by a 50-something or 60-something round helical magazine, respectively.
I have never seen one of those before but that looks really awesome.

Noah
October 4, 2012, 03:36 PM
It's truly too bad they don't import them...

Sam1911
October 4, 2012, 04:07 PM
Just curious, what's the modern day "AK47" of submachine guns?
That's kind of a harder question than it might appear to be. Submachine guns have largely dropped off the radar as they have been mostly supplanted by the more compact assault rifles for almost all military and police uses.

There are still a few interesting true submachine guns being developed and made (H&K UMP, Steyr TMP, Kriss Super V, etc.) but they really aren't getting nearly the use and attention that the Uzi and MP-5 did from the '60s through the '80s, or the Sterlings, M3s, Thompsons, Stens, Swedish K/Port Said/76, PPSh, etc. did in earlier times.

Once groups realized that an M-4 sized assault rifle could do everything a sub gun was good for, but a lot more besides, the calls for them seem to have dried up.

SilentScream
October 4, 2012, 04:59 PM
Yeah the MP5 is more technically complex but is pretty damn robust.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 4, 2012, 06:56 PM
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Saiga-9-600x267.jpg

The AK47 of submachine guns, the Saiga 9. :D

Noah
October 4, 2012, 07:07 PM
Saiga-9 or PP-19 Bizon, that would be an awesome gun to have.

Zoogster
October 4, 2012, 07:29 PM
I see the Bizons are made in 7.62x25, that would be nice.


Really though the submachinegun has been replaced due to the expectation that any professional forces will be wearing body armor that is resistant to pistol rounds.
That was what resulted in the P90/MP7 attempted revival of the submachinegun. If they could make a subgun that could actually penetrate some body armor of the levels worn by typical soldiers and be effective they could regain the benefits of the submachinegun in certain roles.

Politics got in the way to some extent. The P90 proved to have a better round, and the Germans vetoed the adoption of it by NATO because they insisted on their on round as used in the MP7.
So the potential revival of the subgun died out when the interest was highest. Interest has waned since.

rodinal220
October 4, 2012, 08:29 PM
L2A3

smkummer
October 7, 2012, 12:36 PM
"less is more" when it comes to subguns, and open bolt subguns have less to wear and break. The swedish K is more robust of the open bolts but is truely a solid performer. The M3 grease gun was the best of the US subguns as far as a down and dirty performer. The sten took the simplicity of design to its almost basic point (England really thought they were going to get invaded and anything that would function was all that was needed and fast). Open bolt guns then evolved into better finish and maybe better quality with the Sterling and by all means the Uzi with its wrap around the barrel bolt for safety and compactness. Pistol round subguns have very little use for modern military anymore and the 5.56 does so much more than the 9mm or 45.

bannockburn
October 7, 2012, 03:33 PM
I would have to say the UZI is the submachinegun equivalent to the AK47. Both are relatively simple designs, robust, reliable, and definitely ubiquitous.

Rob G
October 7, 2012, 03:54 PM
Just curious, what's the modern day "AK47" of submachine guns? Something that isn't uber fancy but it simple and reliable even when neglected.

Wouldn't that just be the AKS-74U? It's only about 5 cm longer than a standard MP5 and actually has a slightly shorter barrel. Since it uses an actual Kalashnikov receiver and piston type gas system it's about as simple and reliable as anything you could ask for. It also uses the 5.45x39 round which is a pretty good step up from most modern SMGs.

Sam1911
October 7, 2012, 09:15 PM
It also uses the 5.45x39 round which is a pretty good step up from most modern SMGs.
Right, but that in itself makes it not a submachine gun. Subguns shoot pistol rounds. The AKS-74U, for all its compactness, is still an assault rifle, not a sub gun.

Youngster
October 7, 2012, 10:47 PM
PPSh-41.

My grandfather experienced them from both ends in Korea and was a believer.

The soldier proof rugged reliability of this weapon was probably the reason the Russians insisted that successive infantry weapons be those things also.

parsimonious_instead
October 8, 2012, 08:09 AM
Fired MP5s a bunch of times - more and more impressed by it the more I shoot it.
I dislike Uzis more and more every time I shoot one.

Tried an MP3 Greasegun for the first time recently - was surprised by how well put together it felt, and its overall smoothness and accuracy.

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