AR Accuracy using peep sight....


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deerhunter61
October 4, 2012, 07:45 PM
Hey Guys,

What do you consider good? Colt AR with handle using peep sight. 50 yard shot while resting forearm on firm platform. 5 shots. Ammo is inexpensive factory.

Thanks,

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68wj
October 4, 2012, 07:59 PM
50 yard shot while resting forearm on firm platform. 5 shots. One hole, maybe .30 cal sized.

Edit: Realized you somewhat specified ammo. 1/2" could be good.

back40
October 4, 2012, 08:01 PM
there are too many variables. firm doesn't necessarily mean stable. some rifles actually like some of the cheaper ammo, and some won't shoot well with anything but match. the shooter is the biggest influence, so a lot depends on your skills as a marksman.

what are you getting?

Robert101
October 4, 2012, 08:07 PM
I'll take a stab at it with the little information given. I'd say 1/2" to 3" group supported as you mention. Now I'm more on the 1.5" side when fore arm supported. Give me a bipod & prone and I'm back to 1 MOA typically at that distance. Keep in mind that 50 yards is very close.

Quentin
October 4, 2012, 08:11 PM
Irons and 50 yards, I'd be happy with 2 MOA, about 1".

gazpacho
October 4, 2012, 08:21 PM
+1 Quentin

Given a standard AR with A2 sights and plain jane factory ammo, 2 MOA would be perfectly acceptable.

d2wing
October 4, 2012, 08:40 PM
While in the Army I put 9 shots in one hole with a flyer about 1/4 inch out with a standard issue M14 and ammo. Prone sandbags peep sight. I did not try it with
M16, but the M16 I qualified with was more accurate and I got a higher score with it. I say it is doable. I might try it.

scythefwd
October 4, 2012, 08:48 PM
with open sights.. its the shooter, not the rifle thats the limitation.

Art Eatman
October 4, 2012, 08:50 PM
Off the bench with my Colt AR with irons, I get three-shot one-MOA. Some sort of como se llama ammo, I disremember.

45_auto
October 4, 2012, 08:59 PM
Go to a high-power rifle match sometimes. The good shooters will all pretty easily shoot minute of angle at 100 yards (1") with the iron peep sights.

henschman
October 5, 2012, 01:45 AM
At Appleseed marksmanship clinics, we consider 4 MOA from field positions to be "Rifleman's Standard"... though that is not from a solid rest (it is turning your body into a "firm platform" using the rifle's sling). 4 MOA would be 2" at 50 yards. Come to an Appleseed and we will teach you everything you need to shoot to this standard consistently, from field positions, out to 500 yards. www.appleseedinfo.org

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 5, 2012, 02:45 AM
I would say, without a bench rest, and using a proper sling, one should be able to get 2" or less groups at 50 yards (what the previous poster said).

ZGunner
October 5, 2012, 03:01 AM
My philosophy is "if I can hit a man size silhouette then I'm happy". But you should be able to cover up all your shots with your palm from 50.

Pete D.
October 5, 2012, 06:20 AM
I shot this target the other day - iron sights, prone, 100 yards - it could be better (not minute of angle for sure) but I was pleased with the score (for now).
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/4F7C2FB4-0182-4378-815C-A24F3F8B99BE-673-000000F98FACE036.jpg

ZXD9
October 5, 2012, 10:14 AM
I tried 100y for the first time in June. Using a bipod on a bench.

3 groups of 5 shots each. Groups were 1.75", 1.61" and 2.06".

I guess theoretically they should get smaller at 50y.

Welding Rod
October 5, 2012, 11:15 AM
A good AR with good ammo should do about 1/2" - 1 MOA, a good AR with cheap ammon is anyone's guess as it totally depsnds on the ammo. But for something like PMC or XM193 I would guess about 2 MOA or 1" at 50 yards.

SSN Vet
October 5, 2012, 03:37 PM
I'd like to see some of these 1" five shot groups shot off of a sand bag on the bench at 50 yards, with the A2 peeps.

No glass, no dots, no lead sleds, no bi-pods... not theoretical performance.... but honest "I shot this" targets ....

That said, my personal best with an16" A2 middy at 50 yds is 1.25" (with my own hand loaded 69 gr. SMKs)

I'd call anything inside of 2" very good shooting....

Welding Rod
October 5, 2012, 04:46 PM
Hi Vet

Unfortunately this 1" 5-shot group is at 100 yards, not 50. It is the best I can do.

I do shoot highpower twice per month the better part of the year. The ammo is Federal GMM. It is a RRA Standard A2 rifle with chrome-lined barrel (not floated).

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9df39b3127ccec670f91efbc100000040O00CZs2LFoxcsQe3nwU/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Z-Michigan
October 5, 2012, 05:30 PM
A good AR with good ammo should do about 1/2" - 1 MOA, a good AR with cheap ammon is anyone's guess as it totally depsnds on the ammo. But for something like PMC or XM193 I would guess about 2 MOA or 1" at 50 yards.

My views as well. Much of the inexpensive factory ammo just isn't very accurate. Some combinations of cheap ammo and decent but unexceptional guns may only do 3-5 MOA without anything being defective.

If you want to know what you and your gun are really capable of, get some match ammo with a bullet suitable for your twist rate (69 or 77gr if you have 1 in 7 twist, 50 to 69gr (maybe) if you have 1 in 9 twist, nothing heavier than 55 if you have a 1 in 12 twist). Federal Gold Medal Match is considered both high quality and just about the reference standard.

68wj
October 5, 2012, 05:52 PM
I'd like to see some of these 1" five shot groups shot off of a sand bag on the bench at 50 yards, with the A2 peeps.

No glass, no dots, no lead sleds, no bi-pods... not theoretical performance.... but honest "I shot this" targets ....

That said, my personal best with an16" A2 middy at 50 yds is 1.25" (with my own hand loaded 69 gr. SMKs)

I'd call anything inside of 2" very good shooting....
I remember in boot with a loose, off the rack A2, field prone, issue M855 ammo, at 35 yards, all holes were touching. A good rifle with even decent cheap ammo should perform well at 50 with a target small enough to be precise and large enough to see.

Infidel4life11
October 5, 2012, 07:06 PM
With Irons I'd say 2MOA or less. On my 50yrd zero you could cover the group with a nickel, shooting prone with the rifle on a sand bag and magazine on the ground.

Pete D.
October 5, 2012, 07:28 PM
I'd like to see some of these 1" five shot groups shot off of a sand bag on the bench at 50 yards, with the A2 peeps.

No glass, no dots, no lead sleds, no bi-pods... not theoretical performance.... but honest "I shot this" targets ....

Well....hard to measure now but the actual ring dimensions of that 10 shot prone target posted above are X = 0.75", 10 = 1.75", 9 = 2.75". The better shooters will shoot a lot tighter groups than mine for sure.
At 50 yards, that group would have been nearly 1/4 the size (remember that as diameter doubles the total area increases much more than 2x. A one inch circle - two MOA at 50 yards - has an area of 0.786"sq.in. A two MOA circle at 100 yards has an area of 3.14 sq.in, nearly four times larger. The reverse is true also. That one inch group in post #18 would likely have been 1/2" or smaller at 50 yds.)
Pete

SSN Vet
October 5, 2012, 09:02 PM
W.R.,

Your targets are impressive and my hat is tipped to you...

Your 100 yd performance is also impressive Pete... If I understand your scale correctly, the spread is ~2.5", which would in theory have halved if shot at 50 yds.

Perhaps "good" for a regular competitive shooter and "good" for a guy off the street who just bought his first AR and wonders whether he's getting there or not are different standards.

I'd like to know if the high power competitors are using the standard A2 aperture sizes, or if they have retrofitted a smaller hole rear sight.

The reason I ask is that all I can see is a small black smudge at 100 yds, and even the small A2 aperture is huge by comparison.

I've always heard that the AR is an "inherently accurate" platform.... and I definitely agree with that assessment.

I also think that the rifle's potential for accuracy is far greater than the individual skill level of most "civilians" who handle it (and probably most in the military as well).

So my take on the OPs question was an inquiry about what is a "reasonable expectation" for an "average Joe" with his first AR. Which is a different question than what is the capability of the rifle itself, or the rifle in the hands of an competitive shooter.

If the bar is set too high for a new shooter who aspires to be a "rifleman" some day, guys can get discouraged and feel that they need to go for high powered optics to "get there".

griff383
October 5, 2012, 09:09 PM
Ive gotten 1" groups at 100 off hand with standard A2 sights... using handloads of course

I even got to the point where I could ring the 6" gong at 200 almost every time.

SSN Vet
October 5, 2012, 09:21 PM
Here's my personal best at 50 yds...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=84285&d=1220752388

I'm not sure that I could reproduce this, as my eyes have headed south over the last two years :^(

holdencm9
October 5, 2012, 09:42 PM
A lot depends on the length....carbine, middy, rifle? The sight radius on my M4, the front sight would cover half the target at 50 yards.

I would be ECSTATIC with a 2" group at 50 yards with my carbine.

With my middy it would be a little less impressive. I'd be happy with it. I think a 2" group at 50 yards with a rifle would still be quite excellent.

Welding Rod
October 5, 2012, 09:45 PM
Vet - Really fine accuracy is about as much about the shooters eyes as anything. I am 46 and am fortunate to still be able to shoot irons OK, but personally I can not use the smaller match aperatures in the AR platform to any advantage.

The match aperatures darken the sight picture significantly for me, and I also see a spider web effect in the peep hole. I did try shooting some matches with a NM AR, but I found I actually shoot better with GI sights.

Your shooting is better than average I would say! Even with a ML gas, your shorter sight radius puts you at a disadvantage with irons. All else equal, you would certainly shoot somewhat smaller groups with a rifle length gas system.

Some HP shooters are really amazing, and shoot circles around me. It can be quite humbling when trying it out for the first time.

SSN Vet
October 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
My next build is going to have a bull barrel and glass...with no iron sights. I may go with 6.8 SPC

I wanted to learn the AR platform with the iron sights and I have no regrets...

I don't want to scare you... but 46 is when my eyes went south....

but I'm stuck at a desk staring at a computer monitor all day, 250 days a year :( .... and that doesn't help.

Pete D.
October 5, 2012, 11:18 PM
Your 100 yd performance is also impressive Pete... If I understand your scale correctly, the spread is ~2.5", which would in theory have halved if shot at 50 yds.
Actually, the groups are even smaller than half the size. WR's group is one MOA at 100 yards....one MOA at 50 yards is a square one half inch on a side (only 1/4 the size of a one inch square) or a circle one half inch in diameter. His group would fit inside that circle or square. My own group - about two MOA at 100 and roughly circular would fit nearly into a one inch diameter circle at 50 yards. (my eyes are 65 years old.) The top shooters do that at 100 for twenty shots.

Caliper_RWVA
October 6, 2012, 12:38 PM
Two key elements to iron sight accuracy are consistent sight picture and front sight focus. Focusing on the front sight helps reduce your groups because you will tend to hold more steadily when focusing on the item that, when it moves, has the greatest effect on where the bullet goes. Most CMP and High Power shooters will used the 6:00 hold because it allows an unobstructed view of the target with the bull right above the front post. This works great if your targets are all a consistent size, but can be more challenging if you shoot at targets of many different sizes. Either way, whether you like a 6:00 or a center hold, pick one and stick with it.

siglite
October 7, 2012, 07:11 AM
Ive gotten 1" groups at 100 off hand with standard A2 sights... using handloads of course

I even got to the point where I could ring the 6" gong at 200 almost every time.
Wow. In my whole life I've only met one guy that could shoot 1MOA offhand. He mentored me as an instructor in Appleseed. He also had THREE distinguished pins on his hat. That guy's forgotten more about shooting than most of us will ever know.

Anyway, anyone that can shoot 1MOA offhand is a helluva shooter.

76shuvlinoff
October 7, 2012, 08:46 AM
The reason I ask is that all I can see is a small black smudge at 100 yds, and even the small A2 aperture is huge by comparison.

... and 100 yards I am not even sure what that "black smudge" is.

I'm nearly 53, although I hesitate to call that "old" I've been wearing glasses for nearsightedness since the 3rd grade. I have fun with iron sights up to about 40-50 yards and for home defense that perfectly fine. If I want to go longer (and be accurate) I know my just-purchased-yesterday AR is going to need something else on top of it.

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