44 Special Pet Loads???


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Float Pilot
October 4, 2012, 11:38 PM
I am collecting 44 Special load info for use in a smaller frame ( Taurus) Model 445 UL. Stainless barrel and cylinder but an alloy frame.

It is exactly the same size as a K frame S&W or a Python, but only has 5 chambers.

So toss me your thoughts...

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Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 11:43 PM
Heh, I used to load everything from the Lyman 180gr wadcutter to the Lee 320gr SWC in my Bulldog. Depends on what you want to do.

Float Pilot
October 5, 2012, 12:46 AM
I am hoping to push a 200 to 240 grain slug to at least 800-850 fps from the 2 inch barrel

joneb
October 5, 2012, 01:02 AM
I mostly load W-231 or AA#5 for 44spl under 200gr jacketed bullets for my 696, I had a Taurus 431 with a 2.5" barreled round butt configuration and both guns seem to agree on similar loads.
I feel that 240gr bullets may pass the point of diminishing returns with these short barreled 5 shots, but I maybe wrong.

Float Pilot
October 5, 2012, 02:16 AM
I checked what is left of my pistol powder supply.
I have

Red Dot
Herco
Unique
HP-38 (same thing as WW231)
AA #7
AA#9
800X
H-110
Blue Dot
2400
AA#5744
Trail Boss
and a couple other high bulk odd-balls.

PS: Lil Gun and a couple cans of HS-6 as well

joneb
October 5, 2012, 03:23 AM
I am hoping to push a 200 to 240 grain slug
What type of bullet ?

4895
October 5, 2012, 08:32 AM
Your best bet is Unique. I was loading 5.7 grains of Unique with a 240 grain SWC (very mild mid range load) until my Taurus 445 UL locked up tight. Apparently the extractor rod is bent causing the cylinder to contact the barrel?? I put about 1500 rounds (again, mostly mild mid-range load data - 750 fps or so) through this pistol and am quite displeased with the Taurus quality. I always have been and this is my first Taurus and it will be my last. Other than that, it is quite accurate with that Unique load.

You may want to stay with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets tops. Perhaps the 240 grain bullets have too much recoil for the inherently weak piece of crap. This one is going back to Taurus for repair.

2400 left too much unburnt powder "skeletons" when working up loads. (not my first choice)

231 works well, but I had better accuracy with Unique

Blue Dot works well, but the recoil is just a bit more intense than Unique

I may have tried other powders but can't recall at this time.

This is the first load I have become fond of with Unique, so I chose that one.

jfh
October 5, 2012, 09:27 AM
Handloader has two extensive articles on loading the .44 Special, and they identify three PSI levels of loads. They should be in every .44 Special reloader's references.

Since loading Unique drives me nuts (I don't get reliable weight variance), I use Power Pistol, and that provides the kind of 22,000 psi (level II) load I prefer with a 240-gr lead bullet. Other reloaders can't abide PP because of its flash, so I would look into AA#5. 2400 also has a lot of recipes in the articles, but I typically don't work with it in any caliber.

In sum, a medium-speed powder will probably work best for your performance level, IF you want to subject your alloy frame to higher-pressure loads. My guns happen to be SS and Scandium, so I worry less about the pressure levels.

I just checked my recipe database and confirmed that to get the performance you want, you will be working with Level II pressures--e.g., <=22,000 PSI, not the 15,500 PSI SAAMI / Level I loads.

But, whatever pressure level you want to work at, get the Handloader issues--they simply are priceless for work in this caliber.

Jim H.

Sam1911
October 5, 2012, 09:38 AM
I can get that with a 6.? gr. load of Trail Boss under a 200 gr. lead bullet. That's from a 4" 629, but you'd be real close with your gun, I'd bet. Nice load, fills the case just right. Pleasant to shoot.

PapaG
October 5, 2012, 11:35 AM
850 with a 240 might be stretching the limit on a Bulldog. I have an original and stay around 775 with the Keith bullet. 6.5 Unique is a nice snappy load that doesn't seem to strain things. I go up to 7.5 in my 624.

Float Pilot
October 5, 2012, 02:41 PM
Handloader has two extensive articles on loading the .44 Special

That is what I thought... I never throw out a copy, but my wife tends to hide my books and magazines... And I'll bet she throws them out after a year or so... We have a very small house and she flies off on cleaning binges.... It is all I can do to keep her out of my shop building...

Float Pilot
October 5, 2012, 02:44 PM
Since a hollow point will not reliably open at 800 fps... I figure I will stay with either a full wadcutter or a semi-wad-cutter.

I love the old Speer half jacketed semi-wad-cutters... But they do not make them anymore in .429 caliber...

joneb
October 5, 2012, 11:57 PM
HS-6 may suite your needs best, I would use WLP primers. Start low and work up. I'm sorry it is not in your list of powders on hand :(

Ps, don't forget the 215gr cast SWC

Krogen
October 6, 2012, 02:13 AM
I shoot a lot of 44 Special in Model 24s. My favorite load is 6.5 gr of Unique with a 240 gr Laser Cast bullet. I have gone up to Skeeter's load with the same bullet, but found no real benefit and I suppose it's tougher on the guns.

Float Pilot
October 6, 2012, 04:02 PM
HS-6 may suite your needs best, I would use WLP primers. Start low and work up. I'm sorry it is not in your list of powders on hand

Ps, don't forget the 215gr cast SWC

I found a can of HS-6 behind some of the cans in my Rifle Powder cabinet. Plus two cans of Lil-Gun.

I wanted to drive 75 miles north today and look for some Powder and bullets up in Kenai... But it looks like my wife wants me to finish a fence I started before the last few rain storms... the Anti Fun Police....

Too bad Berry's does not offer a plated 200gr .429 caliber full wad-cutter.


All I have for projectiles are one box of 200 grain XTPs,,,, and then a bunch of various types of 240 grain bullets and 310 grain bullets. I really need a too locate a few of each type of 200 and 210 grain bullet so I can see which ones work...

zeke
October 7, 2012, 09:42 PM
starline brass, fed 150 primer, speer 200 gr gold dot, 7.7 grains unique = 850 fps from taurus 445. 6.2-6.4 grains hp-38 under 200 lrnfp makes practice load for close to same poi at 800 fps from 3in 696 (have not chrono'eed it from 445)

Blazer factory 200 gdhp gets 810 fps from taurus 445, while the nickeled case version gets 750 fps.

Also have the Taurus ul version, but removed replaced the grips with the smaller hard rubbers. 50 rounds will remove a patch of skin from hand, but it is nice and compact.

9.0 grains uniqe under a 180 xtp or rem sjhp gets about 1000 fps from 3 in 696.

Float Pilot
October 8, 2012, 01:14 AM
Today's experiments:
44 Special Loads for Taurus Model 445 Ultra Light. 2 inch BBL

Target at 15 yards, temp 39 F, light rain. Chronograph at 10 feet.


Factory Hornady 180gr XTP-JHP = 738 fps and a 3.5 inch group (Big muzzle flash)
Factory Federal, 200gr LSCW-HP = 680 fps and a 1.1 inch group
( the shoulder of the lead SWC had to be shaved a little to chamber)

Hand loads

200 grain Hornady XTP-HP, Star Line brass, Winchester Large Pistol Primer,
heavy crimp at cannelure. 1.500 inch COL

7.0 grains Universal……… = 698 fps and a 2.5 inch group
6.9 grains HP-38 (ww231.) = 775 fps and a 1.5 inch group (clean brass)
9.3 grains HS-6…………..= 700 fps and a 1.3 inch group
7.0 grains IMR-800X……..= 620 fps and a 1.0 inch group (dirty)
6.3 grains Trail Boss……..= 700 fps and a 5.0 inch group (clean brass)


240 grain old Speer jacketed semi-wad-cutter solid. Star Line brass
Winchester Large Pistol Primer, heavy crimp over jacket edge. 1.457 inch col

6.5 grains IMR 800X…= 650 fps and a 1.0 inch group at point of aim.
Noticeable recoil increase over 200 grain bullets.

4895
October 8, 2012, 01:44 AM
Forgot to mention, Speer makes a GOLD DOT bullet (200 grain) that is designed to open at .44 special velocities. I shot 3 different bullets through a gallon of water and captured in water soaked phone book. They all expanded well from start loads to finish loads with Unique. The top end load penetrated about 3" of the wet phone book. I was going to try a few loads with power pistol as it gives top velocity and those Unique loads needed a bit more speed for maximum expansion. Either way, the bullets gave picture perfect expansion and retained all of the original mass. They are kinda spendy, but if you are looking for an expansion round, I would look into those.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/291871/speer-gold-dot-bullets-44-caliber-429-diameter-200-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

the Black Spot
October 8, 2012, 11:28 AM
I have an older charter bulldog. so far a 6.8 gr load of bluedot with a lee 310 gr gas checked bullet of #2 alloy is getting good accuracy at 10-12 yds. easy recoil. shoots a little high though.
11 gr of 2400 and a lee 200 gr cast bullet shows good promise as well and shoots to sights.

I hear lilgun is a high end powder and is extremely hot and can burn out barrels quickly.

joneb
October 8, 2012, 11:21 PM
Well for the 200gr jacked W-231 looks like a good choice.
For 240gr that may change.

joneb
October 9, 2012, 12:52 AM
http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=169
I have not tried these but they look intriguing.

This maybe my next bullet for my short barreled 44.
http://stores.arizonacastbullets.com/-strse-26/.44-cal-215gr-SWC-dsh-BB/Detail.bok

3006mv
October 9, 2012, 11:11 AM
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

res7s
October 9, 2012, 12:33 PM
Give AA#7 a try. It's becoming my go to powder for 357 mag, 40 sw, 44 spl, and 45 acp. My Redhawk was very accurate with the 250gr swc, AA#7 8.1gr starting load. Since I shoot with friend with severe rheumatoid arthritis I didn't go any further. The recoil is light enough that he only needs one day to recover the use of his hands after shooting.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://handloads.com/loaddata/taffin.asp?Caliber=44+Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellExperiments44Special.htm

MachIVshooter
October 9, 2012, 08:46 PM
I use a 210 gr. Remington SJHP over 8.5 grs. Unique and CCI 350s to get 985 FPS from my 2.5" Bulldog. That's my defense load. Plinking ammo is usually 200 gr. lead at a more sedate 800-ish FPS.

jfh
October 9, 2012, 09:59 PM
so those of you looking for exhaustive testing can read it at your leisure.

FYI, IMO the recipe provided by MachIVshooter is at least a "Level III" category load--i.e., >=25,000 PSI...might be hard on guns.

added on edit: error on my part--I read the 210 gr. weight as 240 gr. when I made that comment, and stand corrected--see post 39.

However, even at 210 gr., I am having a hard time seeing a 210-gr. jacketed bullet running at nearly 1000 fps from a 2.5" barrel is not exceeding SAAMI--i.e., 15,500 PSI.

Jim H.

Float Pilot
October 9, 2012, 11:48 PM
I just spent a few hours on the road to buy more powder.
Bought some:

Green Dot
IMR 700X
Tite Group
SR-4756

As for bullets ,, no good luck today.
I did find a box of 210 grain Sierra HPs... But no lighter weight wad-cutters...

So I will have to wait for my Midway order to show up...

Maybe I can toss a few more loads down-range tommorrow...

Float Pilot
October 10, 2012, 11:13 PM
I only had an hour today for shooting and an hour for loading...

I think the faster load using the 240 grain lead SWC and Red DOT may have been more accurate, but I was in a hurry and my hand really felt that load in this lightweight snubby.

200 grain Hornady XTP-HP, Winchester Brass, WLP, heavy roll crimp 1.500 COL
15 yards, high wind, fading sunlight

5.0 grains RED DOT = 547 fps and a 1.0 inch group
5.5 grains RED DOT = 685 fps and a 1.5 inch group
5.5 grains GREEN DOT = 675 fps and a 2.0 inch group
8.6 grains IMR SR4756 = 680 fps and a 1.5 inch group

240 grain Keith Lead Semi-Wad-cutter, WW Brass, WLP,
Heavy Roll crimp 1.490 COL

5.3 grains GREEN DOT = 720 fps and a 0.60 inch group 1.5 inch low
5.3 grains RED DOT….= 790 fps and a 2.0 inch group POINT OF AIM
8.0 grains IMR-SR-4756= 715 fps and a 2.5 inch group

joneb
October 11, 2012, 12:20 AM
I was in a hurry and my hand really felt that load in this lightweight snubby.
I have found that loading in a hurry is unwise.
When my Wife is watching the X Factor I can relax in the garage and load some rounds in peace, Amen.

the Black Spot
October 11, 2012, 12:47 AM
float, pretty good groups! were u using a rest or just freehand?

Float Pilot
October 11, 2012, 04:20 AM
Leaning over my tool box.... I am getting old and shakey... remember this was only at 15 yards.

jfh
October 11, 2012, 08:42 AM
I was thinking the same--pretty good groups; better than I can do now....either way.

Jim H.

James2
October 11, 2012, 12:05 PM
I loaded some Berry's 240 gr HP bullets with 6 gr of Unique. This is what I am using as my self defense load in the Taurus 44 Spl. snubby. I don't know the velocity of the load, but it has quite a wallop.

My go to load for years in the Colt SAA 44 Spl was 7.7 gr unique with a cast SWC that came out about 250 gr. (429421 mold). I would not load this heavy for a Taurus snubby though.

the Black Spot
October 11, 2012, 12:40 PM
I tried 5 gr of bullseye with a 240 gr xtp in my bulldog by charter. I got 1.25" group at 10 yards shooting freehand. would this make a good self/home defense bullet?

Float Pilot
October 11, 2012, 03:52 PM
It's got to be like hitting them with a big Ball-Peen Hammer.
I removed the factory French Tickler grips and installed the Hogue grip. It is a little smaller and fits my hand better.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173302&d=1349981505

the Black Spot
October 12, 2012, 10:25 AM
I debated and debated tween the Taurus 445 & charter arms. I was about to drop $450 on the Taurus when a Bridgeport charter 44 special bulldog showed up used for $310. Went with the charter arms cuz money was tight and from reports I read they are about the same in quality, but seeing your groups makes me wonder if should have went for the Taurus. I hate to have to buy jacket bullets, was hoping to find a good cast bullet load (I have molds and alloy to cast my own) to work in this bulldog for a defense load. I will keep trying ...

Definitely like the hogue grips better. I have some pachmyr presentations coming for mine.

You are using large rifle primers?

Float Pilot
October 12, 2012, 04:12 PM
I was limited by what I could find here in Alaska.

There was a local 44 Special C.A. Bulldog for $375 (new) but the cylinder looked like it was not properly aligned. The guys at the store sent it back to C.A. , ,,, who then sent it back,,, saying it was fine....

So I looked around hoping to find a S&W lightweight,,, but no luck..

Then one day I was up in Kenai (about 75 miles north of me) and one shop had the Taurus M-445UL on the shelf. ($475) I played with it and compared it to the Bulldog... And bought the Taurus when I figured that it was slightly better than the C.A.
Plus the Taurus M445 fits into my old holsters for a snub nose K-frame (M-19) and my old Snub nose Python Holsters.

If Ruger would make a 5 shot 44 Special or if I could ever find a 5 shot S&W in 44 Special I will be all over it and retire to Taurus to the sock drawer.

But as it stands now, there are only pancakes on the menu, regardless if I want hash-browns.

jfh
October 12, 2012, 04:35 PM
Float Pilot: ask your FFL to check his distributors for a S&W 396--that's the 'Night Guard,' the scandium L-framed 5-shot with a 2&1/2" barrel. My LGS did that for me--albeit some eighteen months ago, and there were still new ones floating around the various distributors. S&W only made one run of these I guess--but it was not a big seller back then, and AFAIK it never got bought heavily by the retail end, either.

It's a really fine gun, IMO--I have a 386 as well. Personally, I wish either / both of them had 3" barrels instead of the 2.5", but I can live with what they are.

Jim H.

the Black Spot
October 12, 2012, 04:42 PM
+1 on ruger making a five shot 44 special!

Would love to find a rossi 720 also

MachIVshooter
October 13, 2012, 12:19 AM
FYI, IMO the recipe provided by MachIVshooter is at least a "Level III" category load--i.e., >=25,000 PSI...might be hard on guns.

Nope. Max load in Sierra 5th edition under a 210 gr. is 8.8 grs. Unique.

jfh
October 13, 2012, 12:51 AM
I am corrected; see edit correction in my earlier post here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8448570&postcount=25).

Jim H.

Float Pilot
October 13, 2012, 01:11 AM
I just received some 210 grain (really 206.9 grains) lead semi-wadcutters (hollow point no less) that are gas checked.

Hopefully I can go out on Sunday to see how they do. The short jacketed 200 grain slugs do not seem to do very very from the short barrel. At least velocity wise. The lead slugs seem to do better so far...

I still need to try some 700X

Archie
October 13, 2012, 01:58 AM
... and do not wish to strain it with over enthusiastic loads. At the same time, I want a load that will defend me should I need.

I found Power Pistol will throw a 250 grain flat meplat bullet at about 830 f/s and not be a 'maximum' load (with a 4.5 inch barrel.) It's about halfway up the load chart. (I'm purposely not showing what I use.) Since Power Pistol is slower than 231 or Unique, the pressure curve is a bit less abrupt. So the strain on the frame isn't as sudden (it runs about the same total pressure) and the recoil pulse is not as sharp.

I don't know if that will help with the Bulldog, but I don't think it can hurt.

MachIVshooter
October 14, 2012, 03:43 AM
However, even at 210 gr., I am having a hard time seeing a 210-gr. jacketed bullet running at nearly 1000 fps from a 2.5" barrel is not exceeding SAAMI--i.e., 15,500 PSI.

I have no way to test pressure, so I don't know where it's at. And yes, I was a bit surprised also. I was expecting 850-900 FPS. But there it was on the chrono, with very little SD or ES. I checked the chrono with .22 LR and 9x19mm loads, and it was spot-on. I was also very shocked by the extremely low velocity of the Magtech 200 gr. cowboy loads at barely 600 FPS, tested same day, same chronograph.

One possibility is that I only use CCI 350 primers in all LPP applications, but they've never showed any dramatic change in other cartridges versus CCI 300 or Winchester LPP (which are both standard and magnum).

I will also add that recoil with this load is quite brisk in the 20 ounce Bulldog Pug. Not unmanageable, but just as sharp as full house .44 mag loads in my 3" 629.

Float Pilot
October 15, 2012, 12:36 AM
Danged crappy gateway computer

Float Pilot
October 15, 2012, 12:38 AM
Oct 14th SUNDAY, Range test: Taurus M445 Alloy frame 2.1 inch bbl
15 yards, light rain, wind, 35 degrees.

207 grain cast Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point with Gas Check.
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol Primer, 1.500 col w/roll crimp


7.0 Grains of Unique = Hi-827, Lo-762 and a 2.0 inch group 1 inch low, dirty
6.0 Grains Green Dot = Hi-814, Lo-805 and a 1.5 inch group, 1.5 inch low, clean
7.0 Grains of HP-38 = Hi 865, Lo 842, and a 0.75 inch group, inch low, clean
7.2 Grains of HP-38 = Hi 906, Lo 869, and a 2.0 inch group, 1 inch left, clean

240 grain cast lead Keith style, semi-wadcutter.
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol, 1.490 col w/roll crimp

5.5 Grains Green Dot = Hi-750, Lo-713, and a 1.25 inch group inch low, clean
6.2 Grains HP-38 = .Hi-812, Lo-790, and a 1.35 inch group inch left, clean

the Black Spot
October 16, 2012, 01:10 AM
Waiting on use of a lee 240 gr tl mold. All I have is 200 gr and 310 gr molds. Wanna try something inhave between.
Anyone used this mold for a 44 special snub nose?

Float Pilot
October 21, 2012, 11:53 PM
Sunday Oct 21, 2012. Clear, 20 degrees light breeze. Target at 15 yards.
Taurus M-455 UL alloy frame with 2.1 inch bbl

207 Grain cast lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point with Gas Check .
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol Primers, 1.500 Col, roll crimp

6.2 grains IMR 700X = 880 fps and a 2.0 inch group
6.2 grains TiteGroup = 870 fps and a 0.75 inch group, very clean
10.4 grains Blue Dot = 810 fps and a 1.0 inch group, Unburnt Powder, dirty.

210 Grain Sierra Jacketed Hollow Point.
1.498 COL, roll crimp into cannelure. WW Brass, WW. Primer.

9.5 grains Blue Dot = 720 fps and a 1.5 inch group. Dirty Load

240 grain cast lead Keith style, semi-wadcutter.
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol, 1.490 col w/roll crimp

9.0 grains Blue Dot = 705 fps and a 3.0 inch group, dirty, unburnt powder.

joneb
October 22, 2012, 12:34 AM
Great work Float Pilot,
I hope you get a chance to try some AA#5, if it weren't for the haz mat crap I'd send you some.
I think 180-215gr is ideal for the short barreled 44spl

the Black Spot
October 22, 2012, 01:00 AM
Float thanks for posting again, I may try some of those blue dot loads. Finally got some 240 gr bullets cast today. Hope to load and test soon.

joneb
October 22, 2012, 02:01 AM
I may try some of those blue dot loads
10.4 grains Blue Dot = 810 fps and a 1.0 inch group, Unburnt Powder, dirty.
Buy the time you get Blue Dot to burn clean in a gun chambered in 44spl you will be well over the max loading.
You would be better served with Unique.

Float Pilot
October 22, 2012, 03:17 AM
Blue Dot was a disappointment in the short barrel.

BUT,,,, TiteGroup was a bit of a pleasent surprise. It would have been better but I pulled one.... That is waht happens when you start to get cocky when the first 4 shots go so well....

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173741&stc=1&d=1350886560

the Black Spot
October 22, 2012, 08:41 AM
Pulled or not that is still a good group!

6.8 gr of bluedot with a 310 gr cast bullet shot pretty good in Bridgeport model charter bulldog, under 2" at 15 yds . Shot high though, but burned cleaner with heavier bullet.

I don't have any titegroup. Bullseye is close to it and shows promise.

Float Pilot
October 29, 2012, 02:21 AM
Went out today and verified a few loads and tossed in a couple new ones.
One of my range compardre's has a 255 grain Keith mold and he gave me 10 255gr (on my digital scale) Keith style semi-wadcutters. He lubed them with some sort of yellow-gold looking lube... No smoke.....

Oct 28, 2012 tests: 15 yards at 32 degrees.

240 grain LSWC,
Star-Line Brass, WLP, 1.487 COL Roll Crimp

6.1 grains HP-38 = 785 fps with a 0.75 inch group with one flyer to 1.25
6.2 grains HP-38 = 800 fps and a 1.25 inch group
6.3 grains HP-38 = 793 fps with a 1.50 inch group
5.4 grains TiteGroup = 780 fps and a 4.0 inch group

255 grain Keith Semi wadcutter
Star-Line Brass, WLP, 1.586 COL, Roll Crimp

6.0 grains HP-38 = 732 fps and a 0.40 inch group with one flyer to 0.75 inch

200 grain Hornady XTP JHPStar-Line Brass, WLP, 1.487 COL Roll Crimp

7.1 grains HP-38 = 830 fps and a 1.25 inch group

207 grain Lead Semi-wadcutter hollow point w/ gas-checkStar-Line Brass, WLP, 1.497 COL Roll Crimp

6.2 grains TiteGroup = 870 fps and a 0.75 inch group, very clean
6.3 grains TiteGroup = 887 fps and a 4.0 inch group
7.0 grains HP-38 = 855 fps, and a 0.75 inch group,
7.1 grains HP-38 = 865 fps and a 1.5 inch group
7.2 grains HP-38 = 895 fps and a 2.0 inch group,
7.3 grains HP-38 = 910 fps and a 1.0 inch group

joneb
October 29, 2012, 02:35 AM
Where are you getting the 207gr lswc gc hp ?

Float Pilot
October 29, 2012, 02:56 AM
A fellow shooter from up in Anchorage (a 225 mile drive from here) sent me about 150 of them in a priority mail box.....

I have asked where he got them, but no answer. I will see if I can post a good photo of one....

I do not know if they are supposed to be 205 grains or 210.... They actually weigh 207

the Black Spot
October 29, 2012, 10:27 AM
Thanks again float for the updates. You using a rest or are these groups just freehand shooting?

Still waiting to get out and try some of my loads. Maybe today.

Float Pilot
October 30, 2012, 12:33 AM
Here are the bullets that seem to be fairly accurate so far.

Left to right.
200gr Hornady XTP, Sierra 210gr HP, Mystery 207gr Lead SWC-HP, HSM 240 grain cast, 255 Keith type via an old Lyman mould.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174014&d=1351567970

DOES ANYONE HAVE AN IDEA WHAT THE 207gr SWC-HP-GC MIGHT BE???
It looks swaged to me... maybe... I acnnot find them listed anyplace..

Black Spot:
I am leaning over a table so my arms are supported. This is only at 15 yards.
I am having a problem because my old eye-balls do not do so great with the front sights on short barrels.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174015&d=1351567970

And yes , the revolver is dirty. I am doing a grime torture test.

Eb1
October 30, 2012, 12:51 AM
My testing so far with my Rossi M720 has reveled to me that heavier bullets are preferred. I had horrible results with a Hornady 200 grain XTP. I just hope the .44 Mag likes the 200 grain XTP.
Maybe the muzzle loader will like the 200 grain XTP. I have a ton of them. My M720 liked the Remington 246 grain Lead. At 15 yards would shoot 5 shots into one hole touching. I might try the 255 grain Beartooth at a velocity close to 750 fps. Should make a good stopper. After all the meplate is .340 in caliber on that bullet, and they are gas checked.

the Black Spot
October 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
That is some great shooting and groups. I wonder now if I should have dropped some extra coin and got the Taurus instead of the Bridgeport model charter bulldog 44 special.

I am drooling over that five shot group.

Thanks for the taking the time to post all this info.

That 207 gr looks like an older lyman mold. #429215

Float Pilot
October 30, 2012, 01:30 AM
EB-1

If you have a set of calipers handy could you compare some measurements on your Rossi 720... I wish somebody here had a model 396 Night Guard S&W in 44 special.

You can see where I am going with this..

OUTSIDE DIAMETER OF CYLINDER
Taurus 445 = 1.530in Charter Bulldog = 1.450 inch

CYLINDER LENGTH
Taurus 445 = 1.579in Charter Bulldog = 1.582

MINIMUM THICKNESS BETWEEN CHAMBERS
Taurus 445 = 0.100 inch Charter Bulldog = 0.079 inch

BARREL LENGTH
Taurus 445 = 2.110 inch Charter Bulldog = 2.465 inch

Outside

Eb1
October 30, 2012, 03:31 PM
Sure. Gimme a day or so. We got sick kids, and I feel croopy, too.
I loaded the 200 FTP with 6.8 gr unique, man, it was shooting fireballs. I am going with 240 laws from mo. Cast bull lets and a 255 gr from bear tooth bullets that are gas checked. Will probably go with imr4227 or 2400 this go round, and will load trail boss as usual.

Float Pilot
October 30, 2012, 09:32 PM
I found a bullet maker called MATT's BULLETS. He has some very cool stuff on his web site.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/

Including the 180 Grain Full Wadcutters in 44 caliber and a 215 grain Wadcutter Hollow Base......

I have some on order......

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174053&d=1351643415

Eb1
October 30, 2012, 10:43 PM
Wow! Imagine loading those things backwards.

joneb
October 30, 2012, 10:55 PM
I would have concerns about pushing a HBWC to hard. If thinking of something other than light target loads I would go this rout.
http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=169
It's listed as a DEWC but I'm not seeing that in the picture.

Float Pilot
October 31, 2012, 12:32 AM
I will see how they do at around 800 fps loaded backwards....

If not, I'll bet that I can get the 180 grain double ended wadcutters going darn near 1,000 fps. Maybe..... based upon being able to push a 240 to 800fps and a 207gr to 900fps.

the Black Spot
October 31, 2012, 12:57 AM
I tested some lee 240 gr tumble lube bullets today loaded backwards, over 9 gr of bluedot. These were wheel weight alloy. Group from a rest ran 2.5" at 18 yds. This from a charter 44 special bulldog.

Some other favorite 44 special loads from a 7.5" barreled uberti cattleman include: 310 gr cast with 9.5 gr of 2400 or same bullet 7.2 gr of bluedot
200 gr cast with 5.5 gr of Bullseye was good also
255 gr cast with 4.7 gr of Bullseye was nice gallery load

Eb1
October 31, 2012, 01:09 AM
Hey all. Help me out with something, please. Handgun bullets do not have the hydro static shock of a high power rifle.
With that in mind wouldn't a .430 230-255 grain bulletin at say 750 to 850 fps be a food SD round? Wouldn't it penetrate deep, and cut a nice perm cavity with some temp cavity damage causing massive blood loss?

Wasn't it said that a 240 lswc @ 800 fps would fully penetrate a full size deer? I think it would probably so it end to end.
So pushing it past 800 to 1000 might be beat left to the .44 Magnum. This is just my opinion, and mostly because I own a .44 magnum. So I don't have to push the special hard. I just want an accurate, effective loading for my M720, and if it turns out to be the Rem factory loadin, which will shoot 5 in one hole at 15 yards off hand, then so be it.

What are you guys thoughts?

Float Pilot
October 31, 2012, 03:39 AM
I agree that 750 to 850 fps is just fine for a 200 to 255 grain bullet that is already as big starting out, as a 38 or 9mm bullet good ever hope to be after a perfect mushroom.

I will be conducting some bone breaking experiments in the next few weeks to see if big , heavy and slow will break a large diameter bone after going through 3 to 4 inches of meat.

In some cases with fixed sights, like my Taurus, you have to play with the weights and velocity to get the point of impact to be close to the sights.

the Black Spot
October 31, 2012, 10:44 AM
Eb1, you said self defense, you talking four leg or two? Personally, I wouldn't want penetration on two leg vermin(obvious pass throughs that hurt bystanders), but four leg critters definitely want penetration. Elmer Keith, shot through a muledeer at over 400 yds with a 44 mag and lead bullet. I would think at 700-800 fps you would still get good penetration. I have a load that I will test on wet phone books, 310 gr cast bullet of wheel weight alloy backed by 9.5 gr of 2400. This load runs about 700 fps from a 7. 5"barrel.

Float Pilot
November 2, 2012, 09:20 PM
Notice how when I find a load that seems to group fairly well at 15 yards, I always get one flyer. It makes me think that I have one chamber in the cylinder that is not lined up as well as the others.
Thoughts???

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174140&stc=1&d=1351901990

4895
November 2, 2012, 09:43 PM
Had the same problem with mine. I was working up loads as you have been until I couldn't pull the trigger any more. The extractor rod is bent causing the cylinder to contact the barrel. I shot about 1500 rounds through mine and now it sits until I can send it in to Taurus for repair. My loads were mostly mid range with about 200 rounds near the top end of the scales, but nothing that should have damaged the pistol.

Float Pilot
November 2, 2012, 09:51 PM
While they are better than the two or three Charter Bulldogs I looked at.... they are still not up to par with a Ruger, Colt or S&W. Although the new S&W stuff is looking pretty bad as well.

303 hunter
November 2, 2012, 10:23 PM
Forgot to mention, Speer makes a GOLD DOT bullet (200 grain) that is designed to open at .44 special velocities. I shot 3 different bullets through a gallon of water and captured in water soaked phone book. They all expanded well from start loads to finish loads with Unique. The top end load penetrated about 3" of the wet phone book. I was going to try a few loads with power pistol as it gives top velocity and those Unique loads needed a bit more speed for maximum expansion. Either way, the bullets gave picture perfect expansion and retained all of the original mass. They are kinda spendy, but if you are looking for an expansion round, I would look into those.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/291871/speer-gold-dot-bullets-44-caliber-429-diameter-200-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100
I have used this bullet in my 44spl Blackhawk with great results. It will expand at 700fps. Also,look at the 200gr XTP's. They work great as well.

the Black Spot
November 2, 2012, 10:52 PM
I have a 44 special uberti cattleman that gets one flier, I marked that cylinder and don't load it. I carry on empty chamber anyway. My bridgeport charter bulldog 44 special does the same, I put that cylinder under the hammer for the last shot.
It may not be cylinder alignment, it could also be a chamber is bigger(which is the case of my bulldog. The bigger cylinder gets the flier).

Wish ruger would make a five shot sp101 in 44 special.

Eb1
November 3, 2012, 12:15 AM
@ 303 Hunter,

I have also read that the 200 gr XTP is a great bullet for the 44 SPC, but it shot horrible in my M720.
I am finding tha heavier bullets shoot much, much better at 700-800 fps. Bullet weights ranging from 240 LSWC to 255 grian Beartooth bullets.
Could just be my gun

Float Pilot
November 3, 2012, 10:25 PM
The little target in the middle is 200 grain Hornady XTPs with 7.1 grains of HP-38. they were going 830 fps from m 2 inch bbl.

Float Pilot
November 8, 2012, 08:21 PM
I have some 180 grain XTPs to try this weekend as I wait for the new cast hollow base slugs.

I tried a CCI-300 primers with one load compared to the orignal test load using Winchester Large Pistol primers.

207 grain semi-wadcutter GC
6.3 grains TiteGroup
WW Brass, Roll crimp

Average of ten shots

Winchester Large Pistol = 885 fps

CCI-300 primer = 825 fps

the Black Spot
November 9, 2012, 01:48 AM
I have a few to test this weekend as well..going to try some Bullseye and 240 and 210 gr cast bullets, then further testing with same bullets and 2400.

Anyone used lilgun powder in the special?

Did u mean to skip your group size in last post?

joneb
November 9, 2012, 11:55 PM
Anyone used lilgun powder in the special?
No.
Black Spot, what gun are you shooting ?
In 44spl the slowest powder I have found favor with for 240gr jacketed is AA#7 I have had my eye out for True blue but no one carries it in my area :(

the Black Spot
November 10, 2012, 02:03 AM
I have a bridgeport model charter bulldog 44 special, and a uberti cattleman 44 special.

I tried 9 gr of bluedot with a 240 tl cast bullet in my bulldog. Group was under 3" at 15 yds. The last four bullets in the grouping went through the paper sideways. When I load these bullets backwards they shoot strait.
The 5 gr of Bullseye with the 240 gr did not shoot very tight groups, about 4" at 15 yds.

joneb
November 10, 2012, 03:40 AM
For 240gr cast bullets its hard to beat Unique.

Float Pilot
November 11, 2012, 01:33 AM
Did u mean to skip your group size in last post?

My notes are not so great but neither where the groups. It was the end of the day, the sun was not at a good angle and to make matters worse,, my neighbor from down the road managed to cut his hand wide open..... But he did not notice because his hands were freezing up...

The target was at 25 yards and I blasted 10 shots of each load and only wrote down the velocity average. I did managed to keep all 20 shots in the upper chest area of a IPSC target. But that was about as good as I could do at the time.

I just bought a can of POWER PISTOL..(on election night, along with a bunch of other stuff.).. That might not be too bad.... I was also thinking about Lil-Gun but there is not much data and I worry about the pressures in this alloy framed gun...

Float Pilot
November 11, 2012, 09:48 PM
Took a couple hours away from chores today... ( Attic re-insulation and new vapor barrier...yuck)

Decided to try a can of POWER PISTOL from the 2.1 inch barreld Taurus M-445

180gr Hornady XTP-HP, WW Brass, WLP, Roll crimp into cannelure.
9.2 grains POWER PISTOL = 920 fps and a 3 inch group (which was 6 inches low at 15 yards. ) Dirty,,,, Not impressed.

207gr Lead SWC-HP with gas check, WW Brass, WLP, Roll crimp into top groove.
8.6 grains POWER PISTOL = 915 fps and a 1.0 inch group near point of aim at 15 yards. clean,,, GOOD LOAD

240gr Keith Semi wadcutter. WW Brass, WLP, Roll crimp into top groove.
8.0 grains POWER PISTOL = 875 fps and a 3/4 inch group 1 inch to the left.
Stout recoil. Probably a little hot for an alloy gun. At elast for extended use. The primers look fine. Clean. Best velocity from a 2.1 inch barrel, for this bullet weight.
SUPER LOAD

In an effort to get the 180 grain XTPs going faster I tried Tite Group

180gr Hornady XTP-HP, WW Brass, WLP, Roll crimp into cannelure.
6.6 grains Tite Group... = 807 fps and a 3 inch group.
Only a 5 fps spread. no smoke, very clean..... I think that this gun just hates these jacketed bullets... not the powder.

the Black Spot
November 11, 2012, 10:31 PM
Brian pearce has high praise for that 8 gr power pistol load. He listed it in the under 15,500 psi category in a handloader mag article on 44 specials.

I hope to try some more loads with 200 gr cast bullets and 2400 and Bullseye.

I may try to trade my lilgun powder for some unique.

Float Pilot
November 11, 2012, 10:47 PM
It looks like POWER PISTOL (sounds like a 1970s porn movie) burns about like Unique...
It meters real well.

This 8.0 grain load pushing a 240 grains Keith at 875 fps gives it 408 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

3006mv
November 12, 2012, 02:32 AM
5.5 red dot w/ lee 240 tl out of new charter arms gets me under 810 fps; good groups offhand.

the non tl 214 gr swc w/ 4.5 trail boss or 5.5 unique or 7.5 hs6 also good.

Have not tired Hornady 225 FTX w/ 9.0 gr of hs6 but will when i get around to buying those bullets. may just shoot them out of my lever action rifle though.

Float Pilot
November 12, 2012, 03:07 AM
240 grain Keith Lead Semi-Wad-cutter, WW Brass, WLP,


Heavy Roll crimp 1.490 COL

5.3 grains GREEN DOT = 720 fps and a 0.60 inch group 1.5 inch low
5.3 grains RED DOT.= 790 fps and a 2.0 inch group POINT OF AIM
8.0 grains IMR-SR-4756= 715 fps and a 2.5 inch group

Maybe if I added a touch more Red Dot to that load, the group would tighten up...

the Black Spot
November 12, 2012, 04:04 PM
Float pilot, we are eagerly waiting results from those wadcutters from matts bullets. :D

Float Pilot
November 12, 2012, 05:18 PM
They are not here yet.... I am awash in antisipation,,,,,

James2
November 12, 2012, 08:38 PM
For 240gr cast bullets its hard to beat Unique.

I think its hard to beat Unique for the 44 Spl.

the Black Spot
November 14, 2012, 01:10 AM
Tried a few more loads today in the bulldog.
200 gr cast bullet of wheel weight alloy backed by 10 gr of 2400 and 4.7 gr of Bullseye. Neither load shot well at 15 yds.
260 gr bullet of wheel weight alloy backed by 10 gr of 2400 shot well at 15 yds. Under 2" at 15 yds.

I am trading some lilgun for some unique. Can't wait to try it out.

Float Pilot
November 18, 2012, 03:58 AM
I finally obtained a can of AA#5 , (via several un-natural acts)

It should work in the short barrel... ( I should dig out my old 6 1/2 inch S&W 44 special..)

Anyway, does anyone have any A# 5 loads???

I might get a couple hours of range time in the morning... It is 3 below zero right now...

the Black Spot
November 19, 2012, 10:07 AM
Well, I traded for some unique powder. Hope to get some more loads ready to test. With trapping going full tilt my time has dwindled down. I hope this powder does tons better with cast bullets.

Float Pilot
November 19, 2012, 01:07 PM
I was too sick on Sunday to head out to the range... Maybe on Wednesday...
getting old sucks

chriske
November 22, 2012, 06:04 AM
One of my favorite .44 Spl loads :
4.3 gr of VihtaVuori N-320 powder behind a 220 Gr. Hollowbase copperplated wadcutter.

Float Pilot
November 22, 2012, 04:42 PM
About how fast do you think that load is going, and what are you shooting it with....???

Float Pilot
November 25, 2012, 11:42 PM
OK, I made it out to the range today...

44 Special, 2.1 inch barreled Taurus M-445.
Temp 09 degrees F, fading light on snow.
Chronograph at 12 feet from muzzle. Target at 15 yards.

180 grain Hornady XTP HP
10.5gr AA#5
WW Brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel=900 fps and a 2 inch group 3.5 inches low

200 grain Hornady XTP HP
9.7gr AA#5
WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 830 fps and a 2.5 inch group 3 inches low

240 grain Keith style SWC
9.0gr AA#5
WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

240 grain Keith SWC
7.5gr POWER PISTOL
ww-WLP, roll crimp
Vel= 828 fps and a 3/4 inch group 0.5 inch to the left
Good Load

240 grain Keith SWC
7.7gr POWER PISTOL
WW-WLP, roll crimp
Vel= 840 fps and a 1.5 inch group

240 grain Keith SWC
8.0gr POWER PISTOL
WW-WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 870 fps and a 3/4 inch group. 1 inch left
Still a little warm for an alloy gun.

255 Grain KEITH SWC
7.0 grains Power Pistol
WW- WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 770 fps and a 1.0 inch group , 1 inch low.

Float Pilot
November 27, 2012, 01:48 AM
THEY ARE HERE !!!!!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=175361&stc=1&d=1353995256

the Black Spot
November 27, 2012, 10:39 AM
Sweet! Can't wait to hear the test results.

I got out the other day with the bulldog. Fed it 240 grain hard cast bullets with 6 grain of unique. @ a 6" group at 12 yds. Longer bullets seem to work better in this revolver.

Boxhead
November 27, 2012, 11:21 AM
This load, first time out with it, showed promise at 25 yards. If I could hold better I am sure it would be a sub 1 1/2" load. The bullet is the classic Keith via Lyman sized to just a finger push to get the through the throats. Starline brass was used.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/DSC00623_zps2d2d9a6c.jpg

Float Pilot
November 27, 2012, 01:27 PM
My old 38 WCF (38-40) Colts and Colt Clones (USFA) really like HS-6 as a powder as well. While this 44 Special snub nose does not seem to like it much, I will try your load with my old 6.5 inch model 24.

Float Pilot
November 27, 2012, 05:55 PM
Hmm.....
Trying to load some of the 215 grain Hollow base wadcutters backwards....
The edges of the huge cavity are hard to not mess up while seating....

Any ideas?

the Black Spot
November 28, 2012, 08:47 AM
U might try seating with some kind of expander plug or a bolt that fits the press threads, or put a washer over bullet and use bottom of die to push bullet down, then crimp in a separate step.

Float Pilot
November 29, 2012, 12:26 AM
OK,,, I managed to get some loaded before the sun went down too far for the chronograph to work. Which is about 1540 hours this time of year...

WARNING******* I goofed up because I was in a hurry***** and loaded these too hot without working my way up......
Never again...

THESE LOADS ARE TOO HOT FOR A LIGHTWEIGHT ALLOY GUN. Maybe in a 44 mag.... DO NOT USE THIS DATA.

EVEN THOUGH THE POWDER CHARGE IS THE SAME FOR ANOTHER TYPE OF LEAD BULLET WEIGHING THE SAME, THESE BULLETS HAVE MORE DRAG AND ARE SEATED DEEPER. SO THEY ARE GOING 100 FPS FASTER THAN THE OTHER BULLET AND HAVE LOTS OF PRESSURE SIGNS.

2.1 inch Taurus M-445 15 yards
Temp 15 degrees F, Chrono at 10 ft.

Matts Bullets:

180 gr Lead Full Wadcutter
8.2 grains HP-38
WW-WLP 1.220 COL Roll Crimp
Vel= 1,090 fps and a 1.25 inch group at point of aim
Little Too Hot, moving down to 990 or 1,000 fps would be a better load.

216 grain Lead Wad Cutter Hollow Base
7.3 grains HP-38
WW-WLP, 1.235 COL Roll Crimp
Vel= 1,005 fps 1. 25 inch group, at point of aim
Hard extraction, too hot

216 grain Lead Wad-Cutter hollow base, reversed as hollow nose
7.3 grains HP-38
WW-WLP, 1.235 col, roll crimp
Vel = 1,066 fps and a 2.0 inch group. 2 inches high
Fails to extract, far too hot.

joneb
November 29, 2012, 03:31 AM
Anyway, does anyone have any A# 5 loads???
I load 8.5gr of Accurate #5 with Nosler 200gr jhp WLP in WW cases for a S&W 696 the shell extraction is good and so is the accuracy.

Float Pilot
November 29, 2012, 01:10 PM
JIBJAB:

Did you happen to run that load over a chronograph????

I can't find a S&W 696, even though I have been looking for a year.


Can you take a set of calipers to yours and measure the metal thickness between the chambers and also the outside diameter of the cylinder?

I tried some AA # 5 a week ago from the 2 inch barrel;

180 grain Hornady XTP HP
10.5gr AA#5
WW Brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel=900 fps and a 2 inch group 3.5 inches low

200 grain Hornady XTP HP
9.7gr AA#5
WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 830 fps and a 2.5 inch group 3 inches low

240 grain Keith style SWC
9.0gr AA#5
WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

jfh
November 29, 2012, 01:55 PM
I have a whole set of the complete run of AA#5 loads like jibjab's, plus some True Blue, just waiting for next spring. They were to be run through the chrono this year, from a 396 (2.5") and a 624 (4")--plus some others of the Power Pistol loads out of handloader--but health issues (bad hip) kept me largely from shooting this year.

So, we may be able to get some temperature coefficients as well, since Float Pilot works so well in the cold. I don't set up the chrono until it's at least 60F--I've gotten soft in my old age.

Jim H.

Float Pilot
November 29, 2012, 02:27 PM
Now that I have used a punch to get the brass out of the chambers,,,I have some semi-rancid hog shoulders to use as a test medium for the reversed hollow base wad-cutters. I just need to thaw them out and keep them from re-freezing during the tests.
Of course I need to cut the powder charge way-----back....

This time of year we loose about 5 minutes a day in the sun-light dept. I always find December to be a very depressing month...

the Black Spot
November 30, 2012, 10:50 AM
I tested some blazer 44 special 200 gr jhp (speer gold dot), they perform well good mushrooming and decent accuracy. Still gonna find a plinker load and a load for hunting backup.

Float Pilot
November 30, 2012, 09:42 PM
I thought that it was interesting how much more pressure (and velocity) was produced by loading those hollow based wadcutters backwards.

I knocked out the brass with a punch and took the entire gun apart to inspect for damage. I could not find anything wrong, but I might wear a face shield and helmet for the first few rounds of my next range session.

Float Pilot
December 2, 2012, 10:24 PM
Well it was SIX DEGREES at the range today. The sun was fading fast and there was a light breeze coming from the ocean which made 6 degrees feel much worse.

I took two guns out today
The Taurus M-445 with the 2.1 inch barrel and an old S&W Model 24 with a 6.5 inch barrel
Target at 15 yards, Chronograph at 12 feet

185 grain full wad-cutter
7.5 grains Power Pistol
WW brass, WLP
1.219 col roll crimp
Taurus-903 fps 1.5 inch grp
S&W - 1003 fps and a one hole group

255 grain Keith SWC
7.5 grains Power Pistol
WW-WLP
1.594 COL Roll Crimp
Taurus=770 fps and a 3.0 inch group
S&W= 832 fps and a 0.75 inch group

240 grain Keith Stle SWC
7.5 grains Power Pistol
WW, WLP
1.483 col Roll Crimp
Taurus=820 fps and a 1.0 inch group
S&W = 905 fps and a one hole group less than half an inch

216 grain Hollow based Wad-Cutter
7.0 grains of Power Pistol
WW-WLP
1.296 col and a roll crimp
Taurus = WOULD NOT CHAMBER FULLY DUE TO FROZEN LUBE
S&W = 920 fps and a 0.50 inch group

216 grain Hollow Base Wad_cutter REVERSED
7.0 grains POWER PISTOL
WW, WLP
1.299 col. Roll Crimp
Taurus = Would not seat properly
S&W = 950 fps and a 1.0 inch group

216 grain Hollow Based Wadcutter
7.5 grains POWER PISTOL
WW-WLP
1.296 col and a roll crimp.
Taurus = Chambering problems. Plus hands freezing..
S&W = 985 fps and a ragged hole about 1/2 inch in diameter.

the Black Spot
December 4, 2012, 05:26 PM
Well that is some nice shooting with those revolvers, especially the m24

Float Pilot
December 4, 2012, 06:07 PM
Plus 60 to 100 fps velocity gain from the 2.1 inch barrel to the 6 1/2 inch barrel. Which is not as uniform as I was expecting.
This thread has a lot of hits on it...

the Black Spot
December 4, 2012, 09:53 PM
yep, looks like the most velocity gain was with lighter bullets. one of these days i hope to get some power pistol, it is close to unique in burn rate.
hope to get out and test some more loads with unique and my bulldog, but trapping is in full swing and time is short. i also want to test some blackpowder in the 44 special as well.

joneb
December 4, 2012, 11:54 PM
Can you take a set of calipers to yours and measure the metal thickness between the chambers and also the outside diameter of the cylinder?
.159" 1.56"

With the 696 here is the concern,
175760
The S&W 696 is a 686 bored for 44spl, as you can see the forcing cone lacks material, I do not push mine very hard.

Float Pilot
December 5, 2012, 12:30 AM
The Taurus is very thin around the forcing cone as well.
I was worried last Wednesday when my loads were overly hot....I had to beat the brass out one at a time with a punch.

It looks like the steel between the chambers on your 696 is a little thicker than the Taurus. The Taurus fits in a Python Holster. I always thought the L Frame series was the same size as a Python, but now I am guessing it is a little larger.

OUTSIDE DIAMETER OF CYLINDER
Taurus 445 = 1.530in
Charter Bulldog = 1.450 inch

CYLINDER LENGTH
Taurus 445 = 1.579in
Charter Bulldog = 1.582

MINIMUM THICKNESS BETWEEN CHAMBERS
Taurus 445 = 0.100 inch AT THE BASE OF THE CLYINDER.. It is 0.132 on the front end.
Charter Bulldog = 0.079 inch

BARREL LENGTH
Taurus 445 = 2.110 inch
Charter Bulldog = 2.465 inch

jfh
December 5, 2012, 12:56 AM
Hmmm--the last time I had to beat .357 Mag brass out, the heads separated on the 3rd-4th-5th removals.

IIRC, Jibjab helped come up with a PSI of perhaps 70,000 on all 5 rounds fired in the 640....

The gunsmith examined it and found stretchmarks at all five chambers. S&W rebuilt it for me.

Jim H.

joneb
December 5, 2012, 02:24 AM
IIRC, Jibjab helped come up with a PSI of perhaps 70,000 on all 5 rounds fired in the 640...
That wasn't me, but I did recommend having the gun checked out by a gunsmith.

Float Pilot
December 6, 2012, 11:32 PM
I looked over and re-measured the chambers in the Taurus. Plus I measured fired bras from the Taurus and my S&W. The fired brass from the old S&W is actually more bulged than the Taurus. .459-.460 for the S&W and .455 for the Taurus. So I think I dodged a bullet on that one...

Float Pilot
December 7, 2012, 03:22 AM
I fired a couple of reversed wad-cutters into some hog meat... But I managed to get myself sidetracked (wife came home and was wondering what I was doing)
So I left it outside a little too long at 5 below zero... So now it is in my shop re-thawing... before I can dig out the slugs...

the Black Spot
December 7, 2012, 10:26 AM
Can't wait to see those results!

Float Pilot
December 8, 2012, 04:30 AM
OK, I thawed out the meat and finally found most of the bullet pieces.

These two were at point blank range, with a 900 fps load. They really slapped the hog quarter and made the meat swell up around the entry holes. Like the size of a ceral bowl.

BUT, one only penetrated a little more than 4 inches. The other left most of the pieces at around 4 inches and the bullet base when another 3 inches.

And as you can see, the sides of the cavity pealed back so far that that broke loose. It might work at a lower velocity. You would not have an over-penetration problem.

216 grain hollow based wadcutters loaded in reverse at 900 fps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=175916&stc=1&d=1354955248

joneb
December 8, 2012, 10:42 PM
That whole upside down HBWC thing never made sense to me, not enough penetration.

Float Pilot
December 8, 2012, 11:25 PM
Probably only worth while if you were attacked by zombie anorexic super models.

My range buddy who runs a six-pax halibut fishing charter boat used to employ reversed 38 special hollow based wadcutters as his halibut shooting rounds. But like almost all halibut fisherman he eventually went to using a small shotgun to make them stop thrashing...

joneb
December 9, 2012, 03:01 AM
Probably only worth while if you were attacked by zombie anorexic super models.
At my age that doesn't sound that scary, I could get by with a air soft :D

Float Pilot
December 9, 2012, 10:43 PM
Sunday Dec 09,
Wet snow, and freezing rain. Temp 31-32 F. Wind 8 knots.
Fading light

Today was UNIQUE POWDER DAY. I even used a can of the new ALLIANT UNIQUE and not one of the several old cans I have from the 1970s.

I looked up loads in the recent Speer and Hornady books as well as loads from the Lyman book from a couple years ago.

GUNS: Taurus M-445UL with a 2.1 inch barrel and a S&W M-29 (44 mag) with a 6.55 inch barrel. (an old S-model)

Target at 15 yards, chronograph at 10 feet.

180 grain full wadcutter. (Matts Bullets) sized to .430
8.0 grains of Unique
WW brass, WLP
1.200 COl medium roll crimp
Vel- Taurus = 1,077 fps and a 2.5 inch group
Vel- S&W M29= 1,233 fps 3.0 inch group.
* This was much hotter than the book says it should be. Probably due to the .430 sizing, seating depth and small grease grooves on this bullet. Not very accurate and leads the barrel.

207 grain cast lead semi-wadcutter hollow point with gas check. (.429)
7.7 grain Unique
WW-WLP
1.500 col, roll crimp
Vel- Taurus = 900 fps and a 1.75 inch group
Vel- S&W M29= 965 fps and a 2.0 inch group.
* Perfect velocity, but does not group as well as other powders. I wish I could find more of these bullets.

216 grain Hollow base Wadcutter (Matts bullets sized to .430)
6.5 grains Unique
WW- WLP
1.200 col Roll Crimp
Vel- Taurus = 940 fps 1.5 inch group
Vel- S&WM29= 1,045 fps and a 1.0 inch group
* A little hot for this bullet weight. The .430 sizing, seating depth and small grease grooves seem to jack up the pressure. I am not in love with the hollow base idea.

240 grain Keith Style SWC
6.5 grains Unique
WW-WLP
1.475 col roll crimp
Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 inch group at point of aim.
Vel- S&WM29= 865 fps and a 0.50 inch group
Good Load

255 grain Keith Style SWC (from straight wheel weights, sized to .429)
6.5 grains Unique
WW-WLP
1.578 col, Roll Crimp (almost too long for 44 special)
Vel- Taurus = 730 fps and a 0.75 inch group
Vel- S&WM29 = 795 fps and a 0.50 inch group.
* not a bad load at all.

the Black Spot
December 10, 2012, 08:34 AM
Those last two loads should make a decent load for woods carry.

Float Pilot
December 12, 2012, 08:17 PM
The 240 grain Lead Semi-wadcutetrs seem to be a good all around bullet for the snubbie 44 Special. Here is a re-cap of the 240 grain keith Style SWC loads so far. At least some of the better loads.

240 grain Keith Style SWC
6.5 grains Unique
WW-WLP
1.475 col roll crimp
Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 inch group at point of aim.
Vel- S&WM29= 865 fps and a 0.50 inch group
Good Load

240 grain Keith Stle SWC
7.5 grains Power Pistol
WW, WLP
1.483 col Roll Crimp
Taurus=820 fps and a 1.0 inch group
S&W = 905 fps and a one hole group less than half an inch

240 grain Keith style SWC
9.0gr AA#5
WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

240 grain Keith SWC
7.5gr POWER PISTOL
ww-WLP, roll crimp
Vel= 828 fps and a 3/4 inch group 0.5 inch to the left
Good Load

240 grain Keith SWC
7.7gr POWER PISTOL
WW-WLP, roll crimp
Vel= 840 fps and a 1.5 inch group

240 grain Keith SWC
8.0gr POWER PISTOL
WW-WLP, Roll Crimp
Vel= 870 fps and a 3/4 inch group. 1 inch left
Still a little warm for an alloy gun.

240gr Keith Semi wadcutter. WW Brass, WLP, Roll crimp into top groove.
8.0 grains POWER PISTOL = 875 fps and a 3/4 inch group 1 inch to the left.
Stout recoil. Probably a little hot for an alloy gun. At least for extended use. The primers look fine. Clean. Best velocity from a 2.1 inch barrel, for this bullet weight.
SUPER LOAD 408 ft lbs of energy




240 grain LSWC,
Star-Line Brass, WLP, 1.487 COL Roll Crimp
6.1 grains HP-38 = 785 fps with a 0.75 inch group with one flyer to 1.25
6.2 grains HP-38 = 800 fps and a 1.25 inch group ME= 341 ft lbs
6.3 grains HP-38 = 793 fps with a 1.50 inch group
5.4 grains TiteGroup = 780 fps and a 4.0 inch group[/COLOR]YES POWDER DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE
240 grain cast lead Keith style, semi-wadcutter.
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol, 1.490 col w/roll crimp
9.0 grains Blue Dot = 705 fps and a 3.0 inch group, dirty, unburnt powder.

240 grain cast lead Keith style, semi-wadcutter.
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol, 1.490 col w/roll crimp
5.5 Grains Green Dot = Hi-750, Lo-713, and a 1.25 inch group inch low, clean
6.2 Grains HP-38 = ….Hi-812, Lo-790, and a 1.35 inch group inch left, clean

240 grain Keith Lead Semi-Wad-cutter, WW Brass, WLP,
Heavy Roll crimp 1.490 COL
[COLOR="red"]5.3 grains GREEN DOT = 720 fps and a 0.60 inch group 1.5 inch low
5.3 grains RED DOT….= 790 fps and a 2.0 inch group POINT OF AIM
8.0 grains IMR-SR-4756= 715 fps and a 2.5 inch group

the Black Spot
December 13, 2012, 08:43 AM
Thanks for keeping us posted. Your testing has been very helpful.

jfh
December 14, 2012, 07:27 AM
Since edit is still available to you, I suggest that you go in and add the temperatures at which your results were achieved in post 128. IIRC, you've noted that before--and since you have provided results derived at temperatures a bit different from many other reloaders, it might be a good idea for us to have that recorded with the result.

I know that AA#5 can vary noticably with just typical 'summertime' temperature swings--e.g., twenty-five degrees or so. And, I know that I simply don't try to do chrono work at freezing; I can't handle it. So, for the rest of us, this info is a valid expansion for our recipe knowledge.

Jim H.

jack44
December 14, 2012, 10:00 PM
I use 19grains of Alliant 2400 and a BTB 300 gr cast lead in my super blackhawk- good shooter!.

Float Pilot
December 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
I see a lot of warmer loads out there. But that is why I own a couple 44 mags. I have been trying to keep my loads low enough in pressure to work in small frame revolvers and older guns.
14 grain pushes a 250 grain SWC at 1,000 fps from my old Colt Peacemaker. So your load for a 300 grain bullet seems kinda hot....

Float Pilot
December 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
Out again today.....

Temp Neg 7 F.
Fading light on snow.
Target range 15 yards
Chronograph at 10 feet.

From Taurus M-445 UL 2.1 inch barrel.

Only one type of bullet today.

186 grain full wadcutter cast from Lyman mold 429348 sized to .430
Brass: virgin Winchester Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
1.210 inch COL, Roll Crimp

7.3 grains Unique = 998 fps and a 1.0 inch group, some soot in cases

6.0 grains Green Dot = 915 fps and a huge 5 inch group. with tumbling
very dark case interior.

8.0 grains Power Pistol = 941 fps and a 3 inch group with keyholes.
Rather sooty load

6.1 grains TiteGroup = 924 fps and a 2 inch long verticle string.
*** each shot was 25 fps faster than the one before as the gun warmed up.
So each shot was just above and touching the one before. This is Temp Sensitive powder.

7.2 grains HP-38 = 971 fps and a 1.0 inch group. Clean load

joneb
December 16, 2012, 11:25 PM
7.3 grains Unique = 998 fps and a 1.0 inch group, some soot in cases
Sounds like a bit more powder could be used ?

Any leading with the Unique or HP-38 loads ?

Float Pilot
December 17, 2012, 03:15 AM
Yes they leaded... I only fired 15 rounds of each load and ran a brush through the bore every five rounds. Until my hands froze...

I did not shoot any from the longer barrel today because I called it quits after the nine volt battery died from the cold.

8.0 grains of Unique pushed the same Bullet to 1,077 fps.
7.3gr to 998 fps...
Maybe the happy load is in between.
Remember this is only a 2.1 inch barrel.

I do not think this Taurus likes the shorter bullets much. Seeming to prefer the longer bear surface of the 240s and 255 grain cast SWCs.

Float Pilot
December 18, 2012, 04:05 PM
Wow over 4,300 reads on this thread. Maybe interest in the 44 Special is a little mor ethan the industry gurus think it should be.

If 5% of the readers here would hit like on my business facebook page, I wonder if it would help any...
I have not really figured that facebook stuff out when it comes to a mom and pop hobby business. (that acording t my wife costs more to run than I make with it)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dragonfly-Aero-Seaplane-Instruction/259466404063393?ref=ts&fref=ts

Since my daughter is bringing the new freshly out of the oven grand-kid to our house this weekend, I may not be able to go to the range.. Maybe I can head over on Wednesday during the day. It gets dark here pretty fast this time of year.

the Black Spot
December 18, 2012, 04:33 PM
Congrats on the new Grandchild!

One of the best threads ever! One if these days I will contribute some more info

the Black Spot
December 19, 2012, 10:22 AM
Would 5.5 gr of unique be too much with a 310 gr cast bullet in the special? Still be around saami specs?

Float Pilot
December 19, 2012, 03:59 PM
I just happen to have some 310 grain cast bullets.... They look like a lead torpedo.
Let me do some figuring...

jfh
December 19, 2012, 08:37 PM
On recipes for something like this, IMO it ought to be run through Quickload....

Jibjab, is it you that has it? Somebody around here does, and IIRC, they even are a .44 Special shooter and may be following this thread.

Jim H.

joneb
December 19, 2012, 10:38 PM
Jibjab, is it you that has it?
Nope it's not me.
I just happen to have some 310 grain cast bullets
I doubt enough velocity could be achieved from a 2" barrel to stabilize the bullet. But I guess we'll see :D

Float Pilot
December 20, 2012, 12:26 AM
It might work in my 6 1/2 inch M-24 just fine. But based upon the velocity loss I am having so far with other bullets as the weight increases. The 310s sure won't be going very fast, if I keep the pressures low.

the Black Spot
December 20, 2012, 10:24 AM
I wanna run the 310 gr out of my uberti cattleman with a 7.5" barrel.
I get under 3" at 25 yds in this gun shooting 9.5 gr of 2400 with a 310 gr cast bullet. But unique might get me tighter groups so hoping to find a load within saami specs.

the Black Spot
December 23, 2012, 07:01 PM
Well hopefully tomorrow will test some black powder loads with my 44 special. 20 gr of 2f black under a 255 gr cast bullet.
Gotta get some cases prepped for more unique powder testing.
Think I will start with 5 gr of unique with the 310 gr cast bullet and see how they shoot.

Float Pilot
December 23, 2012, 07:29 PM
I am interested how that will turn out.... I can go to the range today....
Busy hauling grand-kid around and spoiling him so he will not be fit to go home

the Black Spot
December 24, 2012, 05:39 PM
Got out today and checked my traps and while in the woods checked out my black powder loads, 20 gr of 2f under a 255 hard cast bullet lubed with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil mix. Resting my hands on a fallen log I shot at 15 yds and was rewarded with a neat 2" group for five shots. The group printed 2" above point of aim. I think I am hooked! May try some BP with my 310 gr cast bullets as well. Clean up was no different than when using smokeless, with the exception of cleaning fluids.
Have no idea of velocity would guess around 650 fps.
Firearm was a 7.5" barreled uberti cattleman.

Float Pilot
December 24, 2012, 07:38 PM
Any grease cookie or just the bullet lube?
Any powder compression?

the Black Spot
December 24, 2012, 08:12 PM
No grease cookie just lube.
About 1/8" compression
I loaded one round with a 200 gr cast. On this one round I loaded 17 gr of 2f black thick paper cookie 8 gr of cream of wheat then seated bullet with about 1/16" compression(roughly compares to old 44 Russian load). This one round shot to point of aim.

Float Pilot
December 24, 2012, 09:09 PM
It would interesting to see what type of velocity you are managing to obtain. I have always been amazed at my 38WFC (38-40) Black Powder loads.

the Black Spot
December 25, 2012, 03:04 PM
Wish I had a chrono

the Black Spot
December 28, 2012, 02:41 PM
Did some checking and best I can figure they are running about 650 fps. If I jump to 3f I might get 675-700 fps. I am waiting on a .429 sizer then I can seat bullets out a little farther and get another 5 gr of powder which should boost velocity over 700 fps for sure.

Float Pilot
December 28, 2012, 03:31 PM
Driving up the hwy today on PRIMER QUEST... (150 mile round trip)
For some reason the Winchester standard primers give me about 50 fps more velocity than the CCI standard primers. The Remington's loose even more...

the Black Spot
December 28, 2012, 04:12 PM
For some reason I have always stuck with cci, but have used federal in the past

Eb1
December 28, 2012, 04:17 PM
I always find that Winchester primers seem to work better for me. I did a test with my .25-06 same powder load, brass, bullet, and OAL.

It was between CCI, CCI Mag, and Win. It was very eye opening how the primer affected accuracy.
I have done this with the .44 SPC and .44 Mag. Same results.

the Black Spot
December 28, 2012, 08:59 PM
More searching revealed a post on the high road where someone referenced the Lyman black powder manual which listed 23.5 gr of 2f with a 240 gr cast bullet at 829 fps.
Sound reasonable?

Fatelvis
December 28, 2012, 09:27 PM
7 grns Unique under any 240 grn lead bullet. Mild and accurate!

the Black Spot
December 29, 2012, 12:14 AM
Found this in a "shoot!" Magazine article

44 special w-w cases cci 350 primers
240 gr RN bullet
25 gr of elephant 2f - 660 fps
21.4 gr of goex 2f - 700 fps
24.4 gr of Swiss 2f - 840 fps
Charge determined by volume. Weight shown for reference only.

Same mag different article

Lyman 429383 250 gr RN 7.5" barrel
26 gr goex 2f - 770 fps
26 gr of goex 3f - 823 fps

Float Pilot
December 29, 2012, 02:12 AM
Early .44 Special Black Powder Factory Loads article

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/44special.htm


I am back... the road was water on ice, dark on the way home with a couple moose here and there...

Most of the primers were gone but I found a few hundred by driving around to various places. I could not find any more 44 special brass....
My neighbor from down the road went up with me... He wanted a couple AR-15 magazines and a couple Glock magazines... Boy was he in for a rude surprise....

the Black Spot
December 29, 2012, 10:32 AM
Glad u made it back safe

Thanks for the link

Float Pilot
December 30, 2012, 02:04 AM
I had a couple e-mails and a pm ABOUT THE AA#5 loads.

I double checked and yes it was 9.0 grains of AA#5 for the 240 grain SWC, for 803 fps from the 2.1 inch Taurus.

On page 936 of the Speer #14, they show 8.4 to 9.3 grains of AA#5 for a 250 grain semi wadcutter.

In the Hornady 7th edition (page 877) they show 8.9 grains of AA#5 for a 240 grain semi-wadcutter.

I too was rather surprised because I thought it would be faster burning than Unique...

I am thinking about trying some HERCO tomorrow if it stop with the freezing rain or wet snow...

joneb
December 30, 2012, 04:52 AM
I too was rather surprised because I thought it would be faster burning than Unique...
You can't assume a powders burn rate based on weight.
http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf
AA#5 is dense compared to Unique and occupies less volume at the same weight.

Float Pilot
December 30, 2012, 05:05 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of the burn rate charts... All of which show it being a little faster than Unique... But in this case it is slower...
I have not played with AA#5 enough to see how it acts in a smaller or narrower case...

Float Pilot
December 30, 2012, 11:42 PM
Horrible day for a range session.....
Rain & sleet on top of flooded ice, winds around 35 knots....

I only managed to get a few loads tested before the Chronograph filled up with water...

I tried some book loads to see if they were anywhere near as good as listed.
Groups at 15 yards, Chronograph at 10 feet


Bullet: 240 grain Keith SWC
Brass: Winchester
Primer: Winchester large pistol
Roll crimp, 1.480 inch col

13.8 grains IMR 4227
Taurus 2.1in = 667 fps and 1.5 inch group
S&W 6.5 in = 765 fps and a 1.0 inch group
Very DIRTY LOAD

8.5 grain HS-6
Taurus 2.1in = 737 fps and a 2.0 inch group
S&W 6.5 in = 828 fps and a 1.5 inch group
Clean cases

6.7 grains HERCO
Taurus 2.1in = 738 fps and a 2.5 inch group
S&W 6.5 inch = 815 fps and a 0.50 inch group... Good load for longer barrel
dirty cases

ArkieVol
January 1, 2013, 03:36 AM
Just discovered this thread yesterday and hope yall keep it going. Im a .44 Spl fan, a relatively new reloader, and very interested in learning more. Reviewing old posts now.

Bought my first chrono last year but havent even used it yet. Im southern born and bred and no way Im going to go shooting when its freezing. (I dont think Id last long in AK Float Pilot. :))

In response to FPs request for specs on the S&W 396 Night Guard:
Outside diameter of cylinder
1.560 in.
Cylinder length
1.62 in.
Min. thickness between chambers
Front, .170 in. - back, .130 in.
Barrel length
2.50 in.
(my measurements and subject to review)

Powders in inventory:
Bullseye, Unique, 2400, HS-6, HP 38, Tite-Group, IMR 4227 & Trail Boss

Looking forward to reading more and will contribute what I can when I can.
JJ

Float Pilot
January 1, 2013, 04:28 AM
Bought my first chrono last year but haven’t even used it yet. I’m southern born and bred and no way I’m going to go shooting when it’s freezing. (I don’t think I’d last long in AK Float Pilot

When I was a kid, the majority of folks in my area of Alaska ( the site of the last battles of the war of northern aggression with the Confederate States Cruiser CSS Shenandoah ) were of direct southern heritage. I am on both sides of the family...
Although now that we have made some of Alaska safe for city folks, the carpet-baggers have been arriving in force.

Sounds like Unique and HP38 will be first up on your dance card..

Are you measuring the barrel from where it starts at the forcing cone by the cylinder?

ironhead7544
January 1, 2013, 08:43 AM
The Skeeter Skelton load with a 250 gr Keith gave 845 fps from a 3 inch S&W 696. Should go about 800 fps in you 2 incher. For practice, I used a 200 gr lead bullet with a light charge of AA#2. Saves the gun and your hand.

I was told by a Hornady rep that the 180 gr XTP 44 bullet was designed for the 44 Special velocities. It will begin to expand at 750 fps. Might be one to look at for a defense load.

The Speer 200 gr Gold dot is also for the 44 Special. Factory 44 Special load went 820 fps from a 3 inch. There is also a 44 Magnum load for short barreled revolvers that goes about 1000 fps but I havent chroned that load yet.

ArkieVol
January 1, 2013, 11:50 AM
Are you measuring the barrel from where it starts at the forcing cone by the cylinder?

S&W 396 NG

Yes, measured with the cylinder open from the face of the forcing cone to the muzzle...Cabela's calipers.

Without benefit of a chrono, the following are a few log notes on the 396:

Missouri Bullets RNFP 200g

Trail Boss 5.3g - med/heavy recoil in 396, med in 21 4"
Bullseye 5.5g - good round
HP-38 4.6g - accurate, med recoil, shoots low in 24 6.5"
Tite-Group 5.0g - snappy in 396, good carry
HS-6 9.0 - NO in 396, very stout

Missouri Bullets SWC 240g

HP 38 4.6g - snappy in 396, med in 624 4"
Tite-Group 4.7g - med/heavy recoil

Penn Bullets DEWC 185g (Will not reorder)

Trail Boss 5.7g - stout, good carry 396
Trail Boss 3.2g - Charter Bulldog (sold) ok
JJ

3006mv
January 1, 2013, 01:34 PM
I loaded up a few Lee 429-214-SWC w/ HS6, lubed w/ Rooster Jacket (no longer being produced); but forgot to run them through the LFC die (I don't crimp with it, I just try to smooth out the brass) {When I first loaded for my only .44 special, a Charter Arms bulldog circa current 2012, I ran them through the Lee sizer and used the Lee FCD, this caused a leaded barrel} so I usually just tumble lube then load and run through the sizer part of the FCD just so they chamber in my cylinders, I think they may be kinda tight. So at my last range session I only got to shoot about half of my loads. They were hitting low, I may adjust my charge, I may look for a TL design too in another weight possibly before I go filing down my front sight.

the Black Spot
January 1, 2013, 02:46 PM
Hey another Arkansan!

Float Pilot
January 1, 2013, 03:33 PM
told by a Hornady rep that the 180 gr XTP 44 bullet was designed for the 44 Special velocities. It will begin to expand at 750 fps. Might be one to look at for a defense load.

The Speer 200 gr Gold dot is also for the 44 Special.

I have a couple boxes of both, but my snubbie does not like them. The old 6.5 inch M-24 likes them fine... Too bad that is not the other way around...

the Black Spot
January 6, 2013, 12:21 AM
Checked out more blackpowder rounds today. Shot these from my 7.5" uberti.
255 gr wheel weight cast bullet - cci 300 primer- win case
Bullet sized .429 lubed with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil
Compressed load
15 yds two hand hold kneeling - both loads shot to point of aim
25 gr of 2f - @730 fps - 4" group
25 gr of 3f - @800 fps - 3" group

Float Pilot
January 6, 2013, 01:29 AM
I wonder how pistol Pyrodex would work... ??
I have a can or Clean Shot or Clear shot around here someplace... The stuff they made for short while before the factory burned down...I tried it in the past in my old 38 WCF (38-40) and it really worked well.

I had planned on loading tonight, but the wife made me come into the house to act civilized... Maybe I can toss together some more loads in the morning...

The problem is that I am out of a couple powders that I wanted to try... HS-7 and 2400

the Black Spot
January 6, 2013, 10:31 AM
Pyodex is a little cleaner but works well sometimes more accurate than bp.
The clean shot or (American pioneer powder) is good, supposedly don't even have to use lube with it.

My CA bulldog did well with 2400 and 200 gr cast bullets.
My bulldog is next up for black powder rounds.

Float Pilot
January 7, 2013, 12:20 AM
WENT OUT AGAIN TODAY...

Today was jacketed Hollow Point 180 grain Hornady XTP day....

My snub nose generally hates them. All shot 5 to 7 inches low from the Taurus. But some loads made nice groups.

Temp 25 degree, light snow. Target 15 yards, chronograph at 10 feet.

Bullet: 180 grain Hornady XTP
Brass: Winchester, 3rd firing
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
COAL: 1.485, Heavy Roll Crimp into cannelure.
average of ten shots each gun
Taurus M-445 2.1 inch barrel and S&W M-29 6.5 inch barrel

10.6 grains AA#5 = 887 fps for Taurus 2 inch group. 959 fps for S&W, 1.0 in grp. Clean Load

7.0 grains TiteGroup= 880 fps from Taurus (0.75in grp): 930 fps S&W (0.50in grp) Clean load.

7.3gr TiteGroup= 896fps from Taurus (0.50in grp) 975fps from S&W (0.40 one hole) Very Clean

6.5gr Green Dot = 830 fps (1.0 in grp) Taurus: 886fps S&W (0.75 in grp)
Clean Load

6.7 gr Green Dot = 886 fps (1.5 inch grp Taurus); 930 fps and 1.0 inch S&W.

8.0gr Hodgdon Universal= 850fps (1.5in grp Taurus): 960fps and a 0.50in grp S&W. Some soot.

Float Pilot
January 10, 2013, 01:46 PM
Has anyone tried some of the Vihtavouri powders in the 44 SPECIAL ???

I have never been able to figure out how to pronounce the name....

The way things are going, the 44 Special might make another come-back in 5 and 6 shot coat pocket thumpers...

the Black Spot
January 10, 2013, 06:39 PM
Never tried veetavooree powder. Has a bad taste In that name, lol.

Oh, for a 5 shot ruger!

zeke
January 10, 2013, 09:02 PM
200 gn gdhp, 8.8 grains vv-n350, fed 150 primer , starline brass = 870 fps from taurus stainless snubbie. clean, accurate and suitable. shoots to poa. Lot tougher to use the sights on the ul version.

Float Pilot
January 16, 2013, 01:35 AM
Went out in the rain again,,,, Very unusual for Alaska in January.
This time trying to find a good load for the 215 grain (really 216) Hollow Base Wadcutters .


Range 15 yards
Chronograph 10 feet, covered with clear plastic because of rain.
Temp 35 degrees, heavy rain over snow and ice.


Bullet: 216 grain Hollow Base Wadcutter sized to .430
Brass: Winchester 4th reload
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
COL: 1.199 inch, Roll Crimp

Guns: Taurus M-445 UL 2.1 inch bbl. and S&W M-29 6.5 inch bbl.

6.0 grains UNIQUE = 925 fps (Taurus) & 995 fps (S&W) 1.0 inch group both guns.

6.3 grains UNIQUE = 955 fps (Taurus) 1,080 fps (S&W) 1.5 inch group both guns.

5.4 grains RED DOT = 926 fps (Taurus) 1,000 fps (S&W) (1.5 in grp Taurus) (0.50 in grp S&W) Showed high pressure in Taurus snubbie even though the velocity was not any higher than other loads.

6.2 grains HP-38 = 944 fps (Taurus) 1,008 fps (S&W). (1.5in grp Taurus) (2.0 in grp S&W)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177773&stc=1&d=1358314493

joneb
January 16, 2013, 03:42 AM
Float Pilot, of the loads you have tried so far which do you feel is best for self defense in your Taurus UL ?

Float Pilot
January 16, 2013, 01:31 PM
Float Pilot, of the loads you have tried so far which do you feel is best for self defense in your Taurus UL ?

A few loads seem like a good defensive load for the Taurus M-445 UL...
SO FAR...
I stopped worrying about hollow points since the 44 SWC slugs are already larger in diameter starting out than a 38 special HP would be after full mushroom. Plus up here in Alaska you need the ability to punch through several layers of tough clothing.

The loads in red are what I am using for everyday carry.


207 Grain cast lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point with Gas Check .
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol Primers, 1.500 Col, roll crimp

6.2 grains TiteGroup = 870 fps and a 0.75 inch group, very clean

7.3 grains HP-38 = 910 fps and a 1.0 inch group ME= 381 ft lbs

8.6 grains POWER PISTOL = 915 fps and a 1.0 inch group near point of aim at 15 yards. clean,,, GOOD LOAD


240 Grain Keith Style Semi Wadcutter:
Winchester brass, Winchester LP, 1.475 col roll crimp

6.5 grains Unique = Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 in grp at point of aim.

7.5 grains Power Pistol = Taurus=820 fps and a 1.0 inch group POA.
This seems to be the best all around load, not max in pressure and shoots the same no matter what the temperature might be...

9.0gr AA#5 = Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

6.1 grains HP-38 = 785 fps with a 0.75 inch group

the Black Spot
January 31, 2013, 08:34 AM
Hope to get a few more loads tested in a few weeks. Want to try blackpowder rounds in my bulldog.

Walkalong
January 31, 2013, 08:37 AM
700X and lead in .44 Spl is good stuff.

Float Pilot
February 17, 2013, 10:56 PM
Looking for a lower powered target load so I can use the 215 grain Hollow Base Full WADCUTTERS from MATTS BULLETS.



Today:
Temp 25f , blowing snow

Bullet: 215gr HBWC .430
Powder: 5.0 grains RED DOT
Brass: Winchester
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
Taper crimp with blunt lead just past the case mouth.

Vel=

2.1 inch Taurus = 885 fps and a 1.5 inch group at 15 yards.

6.5 inch S&W... = 940 fps and a 1.0 inch group at 15 yards.

J.R.W.
February 17, 2013, 11:18 PM
Float,

Sorry I have been slow to get back here lately. I'll have to post the whole spreadsheet, but the Skeeter load is something worth a look. I used a Missouri Kieth 240gr LSWC, Starline Brass, CCI 300 Primer, and 7.5gr Unique. From the 445UL @ 10ft I averaged 855.8ft/sec with a SD of 33ft/sec. I'm sold on it. I have some of the rubber speed loaders back ordered from Midway. Seemingly you bought the last of them.

3006mv
February 18, 2013, 12:24 AM
i've gone as high as 5.3 Red Dot w/ the Lee http://www.midwayusa.com/product/927283/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-429-214-swc-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-429-diameter-214-grain-semi-wadcutter

but will probably try your 5.0 soon

Float Pilot
February 18, 2013, 12:41 AM
These Hollow base wadcutters from Matts Bullets really jacket up the pressure because they are seated so deep, AND because the hollow skirt is being forced against the sides of the barrel.

the other day I loaded some in 44 mag brass with a light load of Lil Gun and the darn things were still going almost 1,300 fps from a 6.5 inch model 29...

They really lead the bore fast...

joneb
February 18, 2013, 02:08 AM
These Hollow base wadcutters from Matts Bullets really jacket up the pressure because they are seated so deep, AND because the hollow skirt is being forced against the sides of the barrel.
Pushing a HBWC to hard can leave the skirt in the barrel. If you want to push a WC I would use these,
https://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=169&zenid=84d12057d3d1d27c6b5036ef11ca3081

Float Pilot
February 18, 2013, 05:56 PM
I am not trying to push them hard, it just so happens that I have not had enough time to work up a low-powered load.

They have been surprising me with how fast they are going , no doubt due to the fact that they take up so much case space...

I have 200 of them laying around...Along with a couple hundred 185 grain double ended wadcutters... Which is like shooting a throat lozenge.

What I really liked were the 207 grain semi-wadcutter hollow points with a gas check. They did not lead and they were very accurate. I have not been able to find anything like them,,,, at least so far.

chriske
February 19, 2013, 10:39 AM
Float pilot,: I use VV powders.
Let me check my notes, I'll get back to you.


P.S. It's pronounced "veeta- v -yore- ee".

chriske
February 19, 2013, 10:56 AM
Float Pilot : here are some of my pet .44 Spl loads with VivhtaVuori powders:

Please note these loads are not as fully documented as yours, as I don't have access to a chronograph.
But I know they work great from my 4" S&W 624 :

180 Gr. JHP : 8.8 gr. of N-340

200 Gr SWC : 8.5 to 8.7 gr. of N-340 (depending on lead or plated)

220 Gr HBWC (plated) : 4.1 gr. of N-320 or 5.3 gr. of N-340

the Black Spot
March 8, 2013, 10:29 AM
Thought i would add this:
Older CA bulldog
255 gr wheel weight cast bullet crimped in first lube groove (not the crimp groove)
25 gr of 3f blackpowder, slight compression
(Note: powder measured in volume spout then put on a scale to weigh it)
2.5" group at 12 yds (5 shots) freehand

Man was it fun to shoot! Sure turned the heads!

This gun shoots really well with 240 gr xtp and 5 gr of bullseye.

JC676
March 29, 2013, 11:39 PM
Float Pilot,

Boy, I'm sure enjoying this thread and all the information you and the other guys are providing.

I, too, am a huge .44 Special fan and own a Lipsey's Ruger Bisley Blackhawk (Flattop) with a 4 5/8" barrel, a Smith and Wesson M24-3 with a 4" barrel and a Taurus M445 UL with the 2" tube.

I have found Unique to be a very good powder in the .44 Special but it just burns so dang dirty. I've been working on developing loads with other powders for both 240 gr SWC and 200 gr RNFP (both from Missouri Bullet Company), with mixed results. The powder that I find most intriguing at this point is Accurate #5 (although I hope to find a pound of Accurate #7 sometime soon) as it gives outstanding standard deviations and extreme spread numbers. Not to mention that it burns extremely clean. My main complaint is that I'm just not getting anywhere near the advertised muzzle velocities.

My carry load for the little Taurus is the CCI Blazer 200 gr GDHP that chronographs 776 fps from the Taurus. The only numbers I could find for the 200 gr RNFP and #5 came from the latest edition of the Lee manual which lists 6.4 gr and 876 fps as the start load and 7.4 gr and 959 fps as the max load. I worked my way up to 7.2 gr of #5 but it only chronographed at 649 fps. Do you by chance have any data that is different that what comes from the Lee manual?

I ran into the same problem with both my Ruger and Smith. Accurate loading data says 6.8 gr of #5 and a 240 gr SWC should yield 860 fps while in actuality it is only running in the 690 fps range here in the dry climate of southern New Mexico. That is out of both guns.

I see where you will use the load data of a 250 gr SWC for use with a 240 gr SWC. That makes perfect sense to me, but ever since I read (can't remember where) that it is not a safe practice because the larger bullet has a larger bearing surface... or something of that nature... I've been shy about doing so. Can I take it that you have had no high pressure signs in doing that? I'd sure like to try that 8.5 gr load (and work up from there) if it will be safe to do so. I'm just looking to get that 240 gr slug to run over my chronograph at 800 fps or so without beating up my revolvers. Not so much a worry with the Ruger but I don't want to damage my beloved Smith... or my little Taurus for that matter.

Excuse the long-windiness of this post and sure hope you (or some of the other guys here) have time to respond. Y'all sure have a lot more experience than I do and I appreciate any help at all.

Regards,
Jon

Float Pilot
March 30, 2013, 12:33 AM
44 Special, 2.1 inch barreled Taurus M-445UL.
Temp 09 degrees F, fading light on snow. Chronograph at 12 feet from muzzle. Target at 15 yards.

180 grain Hornady XTP HP. 10.5gr AA#5, WW Brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel=900 fps and a 2 inch group 3.5 inches low

200 grain Hornady XTP HP.. 9.7gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 830 fps and a 2.5 inch group 3 inches low

240 grain Keith style SWC. 9.0gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

I need to try AA #5 with the 216gr hollow based wad-cutters and the 185 grain full wad-cutters.

A couple other projects ( accurizing a shorty M-1A ) came up and I have not been playing with any good 44 special loads. I have been trying a few other loads, but the results were so crappy that I did not want to embarrass myself by posting them here...

Eb1
March 30, 2013, 01:07 AM
Hey, Everyone. Great thread.
I think the reason you can shoot heavier bullets out of the .44 SPC is because most are lead, and lead doesn't have the pressures that a jacketed bullet does.

I am using a Rossi M720 Double Action only 3" .44 SPC. I have tried Unique with heavy and light bullets. I cannot get it to shoot correctly with any weight bullet. It shoots best with a 250 grain LSWC.

I have tried the factory Remington 246 grain Lead RN, and they shoot okay, but still shoot right. I think maybe my front sight is off. Very well might be.

I just recieved 6#s of Ramshot True Blue, and I am looking forward to trying this powder in .44 SPC, .44 MAG, and 9mm.
I will be sure to come back here, and give a report of how the powder did, and what I used for components.

Float Pilot
March 30, 2013, 01:22 AM
True Blue is close in burn rate to Green Dot and AA#5
It should work just fine....

Eb1
March 30, 2013, 04:51 AM
The Ramshot load data calls for Federal 150. Which is a magnum primer. I have a bunch of those. We'll see how it goes. I am going to load both Federal LP and Federal LPM primers. I will also load Winchester LP primers to see which give the best accuracy for a given powder charge.

I can't wait to shoot the True Blue. Looks like graphite almost.

Float Pilot
March 31, 2013, 10:51 PM
I went out today and tried some more AA#5 for FJC676

Sunny, on new snow, 36 degrees

15 yards from over my tool box. chronograph at 10 feet.

TAURUS M-445 UL
2.1 inch barrel.

185 grain Wadcutter
8.0 grains AA#5
WW brass / WLP
1.200 col roll crimp
Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group

207 grain SWC-HP- w/gas check
9.2 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.520 col roll crimp
Vel=800 fps average 1.0 inch group
I love this bullet but can't find any more of them.

216 grains HOLLOW BASE wad-cutter
7.0 grains AA#5
1.210 col, roll crimp
Vel= 805 fps average and a 3 inch vertical group (weird )

255 grain Keith SWC
9.0 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.585 col and roll crimp
vel=790 fps average and a 1.0 inch group. (point of aim )

JC676
April 3, 2013, 05:20 PM
Float Pilot,

Thanks for more data to consider. I really like AA #5 and hope I can get a load with it and a 200 gr RNFP to duplicate my carry load. The 9.5 gr load you used with the 207 gr SWCHP looks like it could be the answer for me. Is it safe to assume that you found no high pressure signs with it? All the published load data seems to be so dang conservative now days.

Thanks again for your efforts. All the testing you've done with a myriad of powders and bullets sure has been a huge help to the rest of us .44 Special shooters.

Best Regards,
Jon

Float Pilot
April 3, 2013, 06:00 PM
There were no high pressure signs with the above tested AA#5 loads and they all ejected very easily. AA#5 does leave some black soot in the cases but nothing horrible.

Even though AA#5 is listed as being only slightly slower than GREEN DOT, ( which really burns clean ) it is obviously quite a bit slower per weight.


185 grain full wadcutter cast from Lyman mold 429348 sized to .430
All shots from a Taurus M-445UL 2.1 inch barrel WW Brass / WLP

7.3 grains Unique = 998 fps and a 1.0 inch group, some soot in cases
8.0 grains Unique =Vel- Taurus = 1,077 fps and a 2.5 inch group TOO HOT
6.0 grains Green Dot = 915 fps and a huge 5 inch group. with tumbling
7.5 grains Power Pistol =Taurus-903 fps 1.5 inch grp
8.0 grains Power Pistol = 941 fps and a 3 inch group with keyholes
6.1 grains TiteGroup = 924 fps and a 2 inch long vertical string.
7.2 grains HP-38 = 971 fps and a 1.0 inch group. Clean load
8.2 grains HP-38 = Vel= 1,090 fps and a 1.25 inch group at point of aim TOO HOT
8.0 grains AA#5 =Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group

Taroman
April 3, 2013, 10:16 PM
Been playing with the Lyman 429348 wadcutters from Western Bullet.
Hit on 4.0 grains of Bullseye as a pure target load.
From my 624, I was able to hold the 10 ring on a B-8 target offhand at 25 yards.
So, had Western make me a 1000 of these.
They just arrived in a wooden crate, so off to the reloading bench.

Float Pilot
April 3, 2013, 11:23 PM
Some guys on the castboolits site think that my 207 grain hollow points are from a Lyman mould 429215 which was originally a 210-215 grain semi-wadcutter,,, and somebody managed to get the mould with a hollow point option.

I am not all that nuts about the 180-185 grain full wadcutter. the grease grooves seem too small and I get a lot of leading. Plus they are about as wide as they are long...

Float Pilot
April 14, 2013, 11:41 PM
.430 sized 216 grain Hollow base wadcutter.
4.0 grains Trail boss
ww brass / WLP primer
1.200 col roll crimp
vel = 700 fps from 2.1 inch Taurus
Vel= 735 fps from 6.5 inch S&W M-29 ( 1.0 inch group at 15 yards.) CLEAN

JC676
April 19, 2013, 11:52 PM
OK, here we go... I used the Speer #14 manual for these loads. Speer lists a start charge of 8.4 gr #5 under a hardcast 250 gr Keith bullet for 868 fps. The max charge listed is 9.3 gr for 936 fps with the same bullet. I loaded 8.4 gr, 8.6 gr, 8.9 gr, 9.1 gr and 9.3 gr. under a Missouri Bullet Company 240 gr SWC with a BHN of 12. None of the loads showed even the tiniest sign of high pressure. All cases extracted (just fell out) easily and there were no flattened or pierced primers. Recoil was about that of a .45 ACP with factory hardball.

I should note that I did not fire these loads for accuracy and I'm really kicking myself for that but it was cold and windy (blowing left to right). I will get a couple of these loads on paper ASAP but with my upcoming knee replacement surgery, it may be down the road a bit.

Pertinent Info: Location- Carlsbad, NM Elevation- 3,110 ft above sea level, Temp- 47 degrees.

Weapon: Ruger Bisley Blackhawk (Flattop on the .357 frame) with a 4 5/8" barrel

Brass: Starline .44 Special, once fired
Primer: CCI #300 Large Pistol
Chrono: Shooting Chrony Master F-1

RUGER BISLEY BLACKHAWK:

8.4 gr #5: Avg. Vel.- 838.6 fps, Ext. Spread- 9.2, Avg. Deviation- 3.4, Stand. Deviation- 3.8 WOW!!!!
8.6 gr #5 848.5 105.0 17.2 30.8
8.9 gr #5 865.3 45.1 15.9 18.2
9.1 gr #5 886.3 33.9 8.1 11.7
9.3 gr #5 883.6 37.0 12.0 14.4

I had very similar results when I ran these same loads through my S&W 24-3, just with velocity reduced some because of the 4" barrel. I have never had a handload with the standard deviation being in the single digits!

Float Pilot
April 20, 2013, 12:56 AM
Nice SD for sure.... It sure look like 9.1 grains is the max since it drops off after that...But the extra 50 fps is not worth chasing when your SD is only 3.8 fps... DANG...

JC676
April 20, 2013, 02:06 PM
Nope, not going to be chasing anything! I still can't believe how that load chrono'd out. Three of the other 4 loads were pretty good themselves but 8.4 gr of AA #5 under a Missouri Bullet Co. 240 gr SWC will be THE load for my .44's. Accurate powders have been impressing me...and this load has completely sold me, although I do want to try AA #7 to attempt and duplicate the Skeeter load of 7.5 grs of Unique. What for, I'm not sure except it is fun to work up different loads.

joneb
June 3, 2013, 01:20 AM
I just received some Penn 205gr tcpb sized .429(measured .4295") target grade. I tried a few loads in my S&W 696 ND
Temp 65 f

Penn 205gr
Case, Win. trim 1.150"
WLP
8.6gr Accurate #5
average FPS 846
ES 29.9
SD 11.61
E= 325 ft/lb
Comments, very accurate shells extracted easily no leading, try F-150, work up.

Penn 205gr
Case, Win. trim 1.150"
WLP
8.7gr VV N340
average FPS 1,066
ES 13.16
SD5.91
E= 517 ft/lb
Comments, accuracy ok work down try F-150 minor leading, shells extracted with some resistance, Penn 205 target grade rated to 1,000 fps

Float Pilot
June 3, 2013, 01:08 PM
Almost had some free 44 special brass at the range yesterday but it was swollen beyond use.
The local PD (the worst in the State) hired some guy from another PD and he was carrying (shooting) factory 44 Special loads in a 45 colt / 410 chambered Taurus Judge.

He was puzzled by the poor accuracy...and the smoke coming out the back of the cylinder. What a ding-dong...

The brass looked like a blunderbuss muzzle. I am amazed it did not split.

JC676
June 8, 2013, 02:09 PM
I tell you, I am so impressed with Accurate #5 in .44 Special. Your results with it were outstanding too! Personally, I have found my powder of choice for this caliber and now it's just about loading and shooting!!

Regards,
Jon

joneb
June 10, 2013, 12:52 AM
well I down loaded those 205gr Penn TCPB.
Case Win. trim 1.150"
primer WLP
Bullet Penn 205gr LTCPB
Charge 7.8gr VV N340
average velocity 991 fps
ES 40.5
SD 15.09
E @ 15' 446.7 ft/lbs
comments, accuracy ok, shells extracted easily, no leading.
I would suffer the 25fps and go with Accurate # 5 with this bullet for better accuracy.

Float Pilot
June 10, 2013, 02:26 AM
Can you post a photo of that bullet?

joneb
June 10, 2013, 02:31 AM
https://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html

3006mv
June 10, 2013, 03:43 PM
Almost had some free 44 special brass at the range yesterday but it was swollen beyond use.
The local PD (the worst in the State) hired some guy from another PD and he was carrying (shooting) factory 44 Special loads in a 45 colt / 410 chambered Taurus Judge.

He was puzzled by the poor accuracy...and the smoke coming out the back of the cylinder. What a ding-dong...

The brass looked like a blunderbuss muzzle. I am amazed it did not split.


Got me thinking (wont comment on the PD though) I got some brass from a friend she got at ayard sale, I loaded them up and they were a tight fit in my CA Bulldog cylinders. Never had an issue before w/ my own once fired brass. Using Lee dies, including fcd. Even stuck some recently loaded .44 mag just to see; no prob w/ those ( used same dies).
Do you think if I fire the unknown source brass, they would be okay ( bounce back down to size) and reusable? I'll give me a try; if they are still tight, do you think my cylinders are out of spec a tad large? I hope not, and wouldn't think so as my other once fired brass seems okay, it was mixed brass but mostly FC headstamp.


edit, nevermind, reset my dies and crimped better, now all fit better. thanks to Tony from Charter Arms for the assistance.

joneb
June 11, 2013, 01:35 AM
I should add, if someone was considering these Penn 205gr tcpb bullets and wishing to push them at 20 k psi I would opt for the premium grade.
My S&W 696 throats measure .429" so I ordered .429" sized target grade, with spring back they measure .4295".
I will likely run these bullets at 850 fps using W-231 or Accurate #5.

joneb
August 12, 2013, 01:45 AM
I ran another batch of Penn 205gr TCPB though the 696 using WLP and 8.6gr of Accurate #5
The average velocity was 850fps, the ES was 13.93 and the SD was 5.65
The accuracy was very good, that's why I did the chrono check.
I had poor results with F-150 primers with this load :confused:

Float Pilot
November 10, 2013, 11:00 PM
It was cold and rainy today, which is very odd since we should be butt deep in snow...

So I took some more 44 Special loads to the range.

One thing I noted was that AA#5 is pretty sensitive. Just look how much difference two tenths of a grain makes.

Both these were shot from the 2 inch Taurus at 15 yards.

240 grain Keith style SWC9.0gr AA#5WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low

240 grain Keith style SWC9.2gr AA#5WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 825 fps and a 0.60 inch group ragged hole point of aim
Very good load.

While HP-38 can get the same velocity, it has more recoil and more brass expansion.


So far my two favorite loads are 7.5 grains of Power Pistol or 9.2 grains of AA#5. Both are very accurate and give exactly the same velocity. Both have acceptable pressure for a lightweight alloy gun. Power Pistol works better in longer barrels than AA#5.

greyhaven
November 11, 2013, 12:53 PM
I have a mini-Sharps that Bobby Hoyt rechambered for .44 Mag. Shoots great with 20.1 g IMR 4227 under a 240g LSWC; 3/4" group @ 50 yds. The gun was chambered for .45 Colt originally, but had a bore like a railroad track, and shot dinner plate-size groups @ 50 yds.

I haven't done so well with Special loads, and I want to shoot long range silhouette, which requires that I use the Special instead of magnum loads, since original black powder cartridges must be used, even though smokeless powder is okay.

My question is, can I load Special cases up to magnum pressures with low volume powders, such as Titegroup or Unique, for use in a rifle chambered for magnums? How high can I go safely? I need to reach out to 200 yards and knock down a silhouette.

Any suggestions?

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