There are any over .400 cal African cartridge with good long range performance??


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saturno_v
October 6, 2012, 02:49 PM
We know that the 375 H&H is extremely popular in Africa as "do it all" cartridge" because it can also be used at reasonable long distances....in some bullet weight and style it can get close to the trajectory of a 30-06

Same could be said for the 378 Weatherby Magnum or the other 375 magnums.


Now, my question is there are any over .400 caliber African cartridges that can be reasonably used at long distances?? I stress "African cartridge" as meaning usable in rifles of acceptable size and weight.....so that means do not mention the 408 Chey Tac, 50 BMG and so on......

Even the 458 Lott or the 460 Weathery Magnum literally drop on the ground as you approach the 500 yards mark...they are 300 yards proposition at best....there are any spitzer hunting bullets that you can use on the Lott or the 460 to try to stretch their trajectory a little bit??

So the 375s are the ony "Big 5" cartridges for a "shoulerable" rifle that can also be used on long shots??

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jmr40
October 6, 2012, 03:13 PM
I will never need anything for Africa, so this is not an area I have much experience with. But looking at the ballistics the 416 Rem mag and some 416 Rigby loads look pretty good.

45crittergitter
October 6, 2012, 03:14 PM
A pointy 350 grain bullet in one of the .416s should do it.

Zak Smith
October 6, 2012, 05:01 PM
For what long-range shooters consider "long range" and "good performance" probably not. The reason is that the purposes of the cartridges are different. The objective of the typical African game cartridge is to put a lot of bullet mass on target at relatively close range. The objective of a long-range shooting cartridge is to shoot a high-BC bullet at high velocity.

saturno_v
October 6, 2012, 05:38 PM
For what long-range shooters consider "long range" and "good performance" probably not. The reason is that the purposes of the cartridges are different. The objective of the typical African game cartridge is to put a lot of bullet mass on target at relatively close range. The objective of a long-range shooting cartridge is to shoot a high-BC bullet at high velocity.


Yes I know obviously that an African cartridge will never be a long range shooter proposition....however some of the plian African game are taken at considerable distance...

56hawk
October 6, 2012, 06:43 PM
Barnes makes a spitzer 458 bullet with a balistic coeficient of 0.526. Out of a 460 Weatherby at 2600 fps it should be pretty close to a 30-06 trajectory.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/820040/barnes-triple-shock-x-bullets-458-caliber-458-diameter-500-grain-hollow-point-flat-base-lead-free-box-of-20

ApacheCoTodd
October 6, 2012, 11:06 PM
I had a 404 Jeffrey that I backed into as an incomplete custom "Safari" grade hunter.

By the time everything was done it was a med/heavy handy swinging hunter but I never really got to use it beyond setting the sights and testing some loads. What it did to iron at reasonable iron sight hunting range was truley epic. A friend who travels bi-annually to Africa on business borrowed it once and all but forced me to sell it to him by way of an offer that would have been irresponsible to refuse. He wasn't gonna give it up - loved the caliber.

Though the recoil was very manageable the thing hit like a flying hammer, was relatively flat shooting to 200 but I set up one of the blades for 300 for the hell of it 'cause my pal wanted a "dust-up" option. There was a bunch of arc at that but it was just to make a point anyhow.

So anyhow - there's a bit more than .400 for ya.

RevGeo
October 9, 2012, 08:18 AM
Gotta agree with 56hawk. A 500gr bullet from a .460 Wby. leaving the muzzle at 2600fps should have close to the same trajectory as a .308 shooting a 180gr spitzer. And the .308-180gr combo is commonly shot at 600 yards which is, to me at least, long range.
Of course the .460 requires over 100gr(!) of 4350 to get that 2600fps. I've never shot one, and I don't believe I want to.
I doubt that most of the 'over .40' Africa/India type of rifles were ever intended for long range shooting. But I'll bet the big Wby. and the .416s would do the job.

303tom
October 9, 2012, 09:50 AM
Why not the .400 H&H Magnum ?????????? That`s a .411 bullet.........

MCgunner
October 9, 2012, 10:15 AM
.50 BMG does pretty fair.

I thought the point of dangerous game rifles was penetration up danger close? I know when I see those vids of elephant charging, looks like a house with legs, I'd want the biggest, baddest weapon available, preferably a 120mm loaded with anti tank sabots from inside an M1 tank. :D I know that weapon can shoot a long ways, but I'm not so urgent if he's half a mile downrange. :D

Yeah, .50 BMG Barretts are a might heavy for a shoulder weapon, I admit, probably not in the cards. Does reach out there, though, and packs a mighty punch.

56hawk
October 9, 2012, 04:56 PM
Of course the .460 requires over 100gr(!) of 4350 to get that 2600fps. I've never shot one, and I don't believe I want to.

I use 124 grains of IMR 4350 to get 2600 fps. It's fun to shoot standing up, but off the bench really sucks. Don't think I would want to take the time to get it sighted in for 500 yards.

C-grunt
October 9, 2012, 06:43 PM
Look into the 404 Jeffrey. They run a 300 grn bullet at 2600 FPS MV which with a decent bullet should give some range.

MachIVshooter
October 10, 2012, 03:13 AM
Yes I know obviously that an African cartridge will never be a long range shooter proposition....however some of the plian African game are taken at considerable distance...

The obvious solution is one that guys who hunt Africa have been doing for decades:

2 rifles.

Lloyd Smale
October 10, 2012, 05:56 AM
only two i have experience with are the 416 rem and 416 weatherby. Both are plenty flat shoooting and hit like the hammer of thor.

H&Hhunter
October 17, 2012, 02:05 PM
Take a look at the .416 Weatherby if you want flat. I am not really 100% sure why you are worried about it though? If shooting 500 + yards is your thing there are far better rounds available for the job than African specific DG rounds.

Any of the various .458's such as the .450 Rigby, Dakota, .460 G&A, .458 Lott could be loaded with 400 gr 350 gr slippery bullets and pressed into service if you wanted. But just playing around with standard old round nosed stuff I've figured out hold over out to 600 yards with a .48 Lott and a .470 NE. If the Sharps crowd can do it with round nosed stuff @ 1500 fps and less you sure as heck can do it with comparable BC bullets at 500 to 1000 FPS more velocity.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
October 17, 2012, 02:13 PM
While I know you said that the 50 BMG and 408 are too heavy, but there are 50 bmg's that weigh well under 20lbs. Anzio makes a magazine fed bolt gun that is 14.5 lbs, Micor makes a nice bullpup that weighs 17lbs. Other than that I really like the ballistics of a 375 CheyTac. If it were me the 458 would be my choice of power, range and portability.

Kachok
October 17, 2012, 02:48 PM
460 Wby is a beast of a safari rifle, large caliber and high speed, but the recoil is beyond fierce, a friend of mine (RIP John) kept one as a practical joke, he would talk someone into trying it and it would often knock them off their feet. Nobody ever wanted to fire it a second time. I never dared shoot it, I knew better. In a 10lbs safari rifle you can expect free recoil in the 100lbs range about three times that of a 375 H&H.

H&Hhunter
October 17, 2012, 06:44 PM
IMHO there are only three good uses for a .460 Wthby.

1. Boat anchor/tomato stake.

2. Down load it and make it into a decent medium pressure African round.

3. Scrape the belt off off it and call it a .450 Rigby.

The .460 Weatherby when loaded to it's potential is just to much of a good thing and there are very few people who can use it effectively. Down loaded however it makes a fantastic lower pressure round that is never case capacity limited. If I wanted a high case capacity .458 however I would simply go with a .450 Rigby or a .460 G&A , load 500 gr bullets at about 2300 to 2400FPS and never look back. You simply never need any more than that as at that velocity with a good solid there have been many examples of full length penetration on elephant with a frontal brain shot.

Any more than that and you are simply "over scribbling the cat".

56hawk
October 17, 2012, 06:50 PM
IMHO there are only three good uses for a .460 Wthby.

I have two more good uses for mine.

1) Blowing stuff up.

2) Flamethrower.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173587&d=1350585265

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164151&d=1336490951

H&Hhunter
October 17, 2012, 07:10 PM
I have two more good uses for mine.

The old .460 is always good for a stupid human trick or two...;)

Kachok
October 17, 2012, 09:13 PM
I think the 460 is simply too much gun, by time you add enough weight and muzzle break to something like that to shoot effectively you would never want to carry it in the field much like a 50 BMG.

H&Hhunter
October 17, 2012, 10:47 PM
by time you add enough weight and muzzle break to something like that to shoot effectively you would never want to carry it in the field much like a 50 BMG.

None of the .460's built by Weatherby that I've ever played with were overly heavy. They all seemed to be in the 9 to 10 lb range. They come form the factory ported so they don't need an additional break.

They are ferociously loud and the recoil impulse is very sharp. I'll tell you what though. It looks like ol' 56hawk is very comfortable and in control with his, which says a lot about his skill as a riflemen! My hat is off to him as it takes time a practice to master a thumper of that magnitude. Good work!!:)

56hawk
October 18, 2012, 02:37 PM
It looks like ol' 56hawk is very comfortable and in control with his, which says a lot about his skill as a riflemen! My hat is off to him as it takes time a practice to master a thumper of that magnitude. Good work!!:)

Thanks, it took me a bit of practice to get accurate with the 460. Luckily I reload so I get it down to only $1.25 a round.

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