Striker Convert


PDA






morgaj1
October 6, 2012, 03:42 PM
I have successfully ignored the striker-fired handguns for many years. I have always thought of myself as a SA/DA and 1911 man. Well, all that changed a few weeks ago when I shot my friend's XD9. It felt good in my hand, had a clean trigger and was very accurate. I also shot his Glock 26, but did not care for it. Glocks have never fit my hands very well, so that is probably why I did not like it.

Well, I broke down and bought an XD9 subcompact this week. After shooting a few hundred rounds through it today, I absolutely love it. It is much more accurate than any 3" subcompact has a right to be. It was stone cold reliable. I mainly shot Fiocchi and Remington UMC's through it. But, I bought a box of el-cheapo 9mm FMJ to see what it would do. It shot all 50 of these without a single misfire.

For those of you who have been ignoring the striker-fired handguns, try one. You may surprise yourself and actually like it.

If you enjoyed reading about "Striker Convert" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
WinThePennant
October 6, 2012, 10:43 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty much sold on striker-fired pistols. Sold my P226, and have pretty much nothing but Glocks.

I'm glad you LOVE your XD!

56hawk
October 6, 2012, 10:47 PM
I have always thought of myself as a SA/DA and 1911 man.

You could always get a DA/SA striker fired pistol. I really like my Walther P99.

wgp
October 6, 2012, 10:56 PM
Always been a 1911/HiPower person, bad- mouthed Glocks a lot. One day I thought I ought to own a Glock, given that it has become such a fixture of modern pistols. Oops -- now that I have adapted to the grip shape I own three Glocks (a 19 and two 23s) and carry them almost exclusively. They're light, durable, the triggers are good enough, have magazines that show how many shells are there and compared to my older guns they are relatively cheap, have twice the ammo and so far have been 100& reliable. They're not as pretty as my Colts -- but a pistol with the qualities mentioned becomes "pretty" in its own way.

browningguy
October 6, 2012, 11:02 PM
I've got a couple of XDm's in 9mm and XD9 Tactical, although I really like them I still carry a BHP when I'm getting all dressed up.

tarosean
October 6, 2012, 11:06 PM
Ehhhhhh.. Bought a M&P45C, it goes bang.. Bought a G17 it didn't.

I carry the M&P occasionally. However, could care less if lost or stolen or broken..

WinThePennant
October 6, 2012, 11:06 PM
One of the great things about MOST striker-fired guns is that the trigger pull is always the same. I always forget about the DA/SA P99. And, for good reason. I don't care for all those different trigger pulls.

My Glocks are all around 5 lbs. Perfect for me. Love my Glocks. Love 'em!

MistWolf
October 7, 2012, 02:47 PM
I have always been a 1911 man when it comes to self-loaders and there was no striker fired pistol worthy of my consideration- until I tried the Walther PPQ. The PPQ is what the self loading pistol would have evolved into if handgun development hadn't been sidetracked by all that "SA/DA" and "Safe Action" nonsense

morgaj1
October 7, 2012, 07:23 PM
I tried my best to find a PPQ before buying the Springfield. My local LGS said that they sell them as soon as they get them. I'm just not patient enough to put a deposit down and wait.

MistWolf
October 7, 2012, 07:43 PM
PPQs seem to be pretty hard to find at the moment. I'm glad I got mine when I did!

Plan2Live
October 7, 2012, 08:22 PM
I like and own both platforms. XDm for Striker and S&W and Sig for the DA/SA. I choose the tool based on that day's requirements. If it's going in the holster and staying there then I lean towards the Striker. If it's coming in and out of the holster and in and out of the console then the DA/SA gets to ride along. I had a lengthy and passionate "discussion" about this yesterday with a very opinionated NRA Instructor and had to end that discussion with this is what I am comfortable with.

Bushpilot
October 7, 2012, 10:04 PM
I'll be the dissenter here. I don't care for striker fired guns. I've shot most of them, repeatedly, some of them quite a lot. Some are better than others but none feels right to me. Try as I might to be open minded on the subject I don't see what others seem to see in them... I fully understand the safety aspects of striker guns but as far as their shooting qualities are concerned, no thanks. I suppose if I "grew up" shooting them I might feel differently. I shoot them reasonably well but when I shoot one I’m usually thinking to myself "if this pistol had a good SA trigger I'd be shooting it even better..." To me most striker fired trigger pulls feel like something from the toy aisle at Walmart. It's mostly the long trigger travel/creep and to a lesser extent the weight. Even a poor SA trigger feels good by comparison.

Bozwell
October 8, 2012, 02:01 AM
I recently picked up a G34 with all the aftermarket bells and whistles. The trigger is light and the reset is fantastic (the reset is the best part about this gun if you ask me). That said, the pull isn't nearly as "nice" as a tuned hammer-fired gun's trigger. Sure, you can make the trigger light, but you can't duplicate that crisp "glass rod" type break you get with a tuned hammer-fired gun. All in all, I like the Glock, but aside from the reset, I can't say it really wins out over my hammer-fired guns.

That said, my hammer guns cost 2-3X as much as my tuned G34, so it's not really apples to apples. The best thing about striker guns, in my opinion, is what you get for the price. I'd take a Glock or a PPQ over a cheap 1911 any day. On the other hand, open the budget up to 2-3k, and suddenly the striker-fired line-up isn't nearly as attractive to me.

tipoc
October 8, 2012, 03:13 AM
When was it that folks began to speak of this as a hammer fired vs. striker fired controversy?

Two years ago, maybe less, no one spoke of this that I noticed. Before that it was not mentioned at all. When did this start? What marketing department started this one up?

The discussion that was held was on operating systems, meaning did a person prefer a single action gun vs. a da/sa type or a dao type or the Glock "safe action" type that fell "in between" the dao and single action. Folks debated whether they preferred an external safety, or a decocker, or nothing at all.

But striker vs. hammer? Seems like the wrong question. When did folks start counterposing them that way.

tipoc

Bushpilot
October 8, 2012, 07:47 AM
I see your point tipoc. However, with some notable exceptions, it seems that striker fired guns are the current fad or wave of the future, depending on one's point of view. They certainly seem to have replaced DAO, exposed hammer guns. I personally am fine with either DA/SA or SA hammer guns. I just want to have the SA option available to me when I want it.

Fishbed77
October 8, 2012, 09:29 AM
You could always get a DA/SA striker fired pistol. I really like my Walther P99.

My thoughts exactly. It's worth keeping in my that the P99 has what may be the best trigger feel of any DA/SA pistol out there. The single-action trigger feel rivals many 1911s.

Bozwell
October 8, 2012, 01:31 PM
When was it that folks began to speak of this as a hammer fired vs. striker fired controversy?

Two years ago, maybe less, no one spoke of this that I noticed. Before that it was not mentioned at all. When did this start? What marketing department started this one up?

The discussion that was held was on operating systems, meaning did a person prefer a single action gun vs. a da/sa type or a dao type or the Glock "safe action" type that fell "in between" the dao and single action. Folks debated whether they preferred an external safety, or a decocker, or nothing at all.

But striker vs. hammer? Seems like the wrong question. When did folks start counterposing them that way.

tipoc
It's got nothing to do with marketing or really suggesting that you buy one gun over the other. I'm talking only in terms of trigger pull (or the potential for a great trigger pull), and really more for a target gun than anything else. Trigger pull should only be one thing you consider in selecting a gun, and just because I personally feel hammer-fired guns have better triggers (when done right), it doesn't mean they're across the board "better guns."

The feel of a crisp-breaking hammer-fired trigger can be analogized to snapping a thin glass rod. I just don't think you will get that same feeling with a striker-fired gun, or at least I haven't seen it. My G34 has a very light trigger (~3 lb on the gauge) and a fantastic reset, but the feeling when it breaks just isn't as "nice" as some of my tuned hammer guns. It's just a different feeling, and largely comes from how the weight is distributed throughout the trigger pull.

If we're talking about a gun for a particular task, the trigger pull is just one factor, and many other factors come into play (decocker, manual safety, etc.). But just talking in terms of trigger pull, particularly for a range gun, I tend to consider the hammer-fired guns as having the best potential for a quality trigger. I'm not suggesting you replace your Glock with a Nighthawk Custom, and please don't read more into my post than is there.

GLOOB
October 8, 2012, 04:16 PM
I was in the same boat! But I broke down and rented the funny looking plastic gun early on, just to see how bad it was. My preconceived notions and initial impression of the ergos didn't jive with the holes on paper. My targets convinced me to adjust my attitude.

MistWolf
October 8, 2012, 08:08 PM
I'll be the dissenter here. I don't care for striker fired guns. I've shot most of them, repeatedly, some of them quite a lot. Some are better than others but none feels right to me. Try as I might to be open minded on the subject I don't see what others seem to see in them... I fully understand the safety aspects of striker guns but as far as their shooting qualities are concerned, no thanks. I suppose if I "grew up" shooting them I might feel differently. I shoot them reasonably well but when I shoot one Iím usually thinking to myself "if this pistol had a good SA trigger I'd be shooting it even better..." To me most striker fired trigger pulls feel like something from the toy aisle at Walmart. It's mostly the long trigger travel/creep and to a lesser extent the weight. Even a poor SA trigger feels good by comparison.

Try a PPQ. Trigger is a 2 stage single action and is smooth and fairly crisp when lubed properly. I'd love to see how a PPQ would feel after a good tuning

siglite
October 8, 2012, 08:34 PM
The feel of a crisp-breaking hammer-fired trigger can be analogized to snapping a thin glass rod. I just don't think you will get that same feeling with a striker-fired gun, or at least I haven't seen it.

You can, and reliably. It's called Apex Tactical. I've been a sig guy for... oh... 20 years now. DA/SA. Love my 226s. But a while back a friend let me shoot his apex equipped M&P. Now, my sig is sitting in a box and it's an M&P on my hip. It's nearly a 1911 trigger in a hammerless polymer gun. The trigger reset (with Apex's RAM) is as good as Glock's. Also, the reduced mass of the pistol (loaded) is worth a couple of tents of a second out of the holster for me.

Jaymo
October 8, 2012, 08:47 PM
I prefer hammer guns. I prefer SA, but also like a good DA/SA.
I don't dislike striker fired guns, as long as they have a good (for a striker) trigger.
I like the P99. I like the XD. I like the SR9. In fact, I like them a LOT.

The Glock grip just doesn't fit me very well. The Gen 3 and 4 (the ones I'd really want) don't fit my hands at all, due to the finger grooves. I'd have to file and sand them off and then stipple where they'd been, with my plastic welder.
Problem with that is, I can get an XD or SR9 that fits my hand much better and has a much better factory trigger pull for considerably less money and I don't have to mod them to get them to fit my hands.
I hate how godawful ugly the Glock is, but I could live with it, IF they did away with those silly finger grooves. My favorite Glock grip was on a .45 that had that really rough, grippy texture. It's the same texture as my Matco urethane dead blow hammers. Even with slick hands, it's not going to slip.
Problem with that, is that the .45/10mm Glock grip is a little too big for my hands. (finger length)
I've also been told by the guys who owned them, that they're uncomfortable to carry concealed, because that rough texture chews up you clothes and your hide, if carried IWB.

The S&W M&P feels great in my hand, but it's trigger just doesn't turn my crank.

Guess I'll have to get an XD and/or SR9.

Bozwell
October 8, 2012, 08:58 PM
You can, and reliably. It's called Apex Tactical. I've been a sig guy for... oh... 20 years now. DA/SA. Love my 226s. But a while back a friend let me shoot his apex equipped M&P. Now, my sig is sitting in a box and it's an M&P on my hip. It's nearly a 1911 trigger in a hammerless polymer gun. The trigger reset (with Apex's RAM) is as good as Glock's. Also, the reduced mass of the pistol (loaded) is worth a couple of tents of a second out of the holster for me.
I'll check it out if I can find one. My only experience with aftermarket trigger kits for striker-fired guns is with a Glock (Zev Tech Fulcrum Ultimate on a G34) and while it definitely makes for a nice trigger, it's still a different feeling trigger with a different weight distribution throughout the pull when compared to a hammer-fired gun. If nothing else, I'd be interested to try it.

tarosean
October 8, 2012, 09:22 PM
I'll check it out if I can find one. My only experience with aftermarket trigger kits for striker-fired guns is with a Glock (Zev Tech Fulcrum Ultimate on a G34) and while it definitely makes for a nice trigger, it's still a different feeling trigger with a different weight distribution throughout the pull when compared to a hammer-fired gun. If nothing else, I'd be interested to try it.

I can tell you definitively IMHO. even with a Apex AEK w/fw sear, the M&P is still no where close to as good as a good 1911, as mentioned above..

Bozwell
October 8, 2012, 09:36 PM
I'll admit I was skeptical, but I'll try anything once. :)

siglite
October 8, 2012, 09:37 PM
"definitively" and "IMHO" ("opinion" being operative) are oxymorons.

In my opinion, the Apex, even the duty/carry are nearly as good as just about any stock 1911 trigger I've ever shot. Please note that I am qualifying that with "nearly." I know, 1911 fanfolks will just absolutely lose their minds at that statement. It's to be expected, as the stereotype (not singling you out) is that 1911 folks are nearly ridiculously defensive of their platform of choice.

Anyway, that is *my* opinion, and it is not "definitive," since, it is.... an opinion.

Further, a really good, tuned 1911 trigger is a different animal.

As for the rest of us, beware of anything stated as "definitive" on a gun forum. ;)

tarosean
October 8, 2012, 09:49 PM
It's to be expected, as the stereotype (not singling you out) is that 1911 folks are nearly ridiculously defensive of their platform of choice.

Not offended or defensive at all. I own both the aforementioned M&P and 1911's from Colt and Brown. It is definitive :) to say they are nothing a like, nor will ever be a like. Apples and Oranges.

siglite
October 8, 2012, 09:52 PM
Please explain. Break weight? (The Apex D/C is right around 4lbs, IIRC, and the comp trigger is lower, but I'd have to search the specs).

Creep? Takeup? If it's "definitive" and in no way subjective, please supply the supporting information beyond how it "feels" to you. Because, how it "feels" to you is subjective, and thus cannot be "definitive."

I'm truly very interested in your numbers.

siglite
October 8, 2012, 09:56 PM
I'll admit I was skeptical, but I'll try anything once. :)
Around here, we have a shop that keeps several M&Ps with the apex competition and duty/carry triggers installed. He'll let you dry-fire them over the counter. I'd recommend you try one with live fire, but in a pinch, maybe find someone who'll let you dryfire the triggers.

IMO, the competition trigger is too light for EDC, but it is very nice. Were it not for Apex tactical, I'd still be in DA/SA land with my sigs. If I were running the games on a regular basis, I'd almost certainly buy another and equip it with the competition trigger.

Bozwell
October 8, 2012, 10:07 PM
One can form a definitive opinion. As he used the words, there's no contradiction. It's still an opinion, and tarosean never suggested otherwise. But enough with parsing each others posts and distracting from the discussion...

There's more to trigger pull than a number. A lot of it has to do with the distribution of the weight throughout the trigger pull, the smoothness, the break, etc. Which is "best" is subjective, but there are still mechanical differences that can be measured. It's certainly be interested (at least to me :P) to see a graph of trigger pull to trigger weight for various guns, and I imagine such a graph would really highlight a lot of the differences. It's just more trouble than it's worth to really measure those things and so you see people typically rely on break weight and subjective statements describing the pull.

I don't really mean to put anyone on the defensive. I have striker fired guns too and enjoy them. Their triggers can be quite nice, especially when tuned properly. Personally, I love the uber-fast reset on my G34 with the Zev ultimate kit. I just think that, speaking solely in the trigger pull department, tuned hammer-fired guns are going to beat out their striker-fired counterparts, at least in my experience (which admittedly doesn't encompass every striker-fired gun on the planet :)).

I'll definitely check out the M&P though the next time I run into someone shooting one.

siglite
October 8, 2012, 10:19 PM
Well, it's tough to beat Glock reset. (admission. I'm a vocal glock-hater. :p)

It's tough to beat 1911 break.

IMO, the Apex equals glock reset, and gets close to 1911 break.

When the M&Ps and XDs hit the market, I dry fired them at the counters, and borrowed them from buddies on the range. My reaction was, "these triggers feel like wet sponges soaked in sand," and decided to stick with my sigs in the face of the trend towards newfangled plastic. I wouldn't carry/use 1911s for other reasons, so Sigs, HK's etc... were pretty much all that were left to me. The Apex changed that.

There was some sentiment earlier in this thread about focus on mechanics versus function. "Hammer v. striker" etc... why does it matter?

In the end, it all comes down to putting the lead/copper flying thingy in the place you want it to go. And honestly, things like sights, ergonomics, manual of arms, and the damn near 100% subjective measure of "how well you shoot the darned thing" is probably more important than any mechanical feature unless it impacts reliability.

For me, the Apex greatly impacts "how well I shoot the darned thing," by bringing that admittedly subjective quality right down next to the 1911.

Nothing I'm saying is definitive. :)

tarosean
October 8, 2012, 10:25 PM
Break weight?

Creep? Takeup?


With the FSS its around 5lbs. Still too much pre/over-travel IMO. Granted it got rid of the wet noodle/spongy feel of the hinged trigger, and reset is an afterthought now.

CZ57
October 9, 2012, 01:04 AM
In my experience, the closest I have come to a good 1911 trigger has been with the addition of the Powder River Precision "Match Easy Fit" trigger kit to my XDm 4.5 in .45 ACP. Better than the M&P with Apex (which my shooting partner has) and better than a tuned Glock. I have no pretravel to speak of, a 4 Lb. break and no overtravel with a very short reset. ;)

siglite
October 9, 2012, 09:25 AM
CZ, I've never heard of that trigger for the XDm. Thanks for the info. I'll keep my eye out for one, as I like the XD platform fine with the exception of the trigger. Just like the M&P.

History.Doc
October 9, 2012, 11:41 AM
I'm happy to read this thread. I've been thinking of taking the plunge and trying a striker fired pistol.

56hawk
October 9, 2012, 05:01 PM
The feel of a crisp-breaking hammer-fired trigger can be analogized to snapping a thin glass rod.

Have you tried a HK P7M8? They are right up there with the best hammer fired triggers.

Bushpilot
October 10, 2012, 09:40 PM
MistWolf, I did check out a PPQ today and it did have the best trigger pull of any striker fire gun that I ever found....

MistWolf
October 13, 2012, 02:28 AM
I have been very happy with the PPQ. No magazine safety, loaded chamber indicator does not weaken support of the case, one simple trigger pull that is crisp, no safe action trigger to finish cocking the striker, no thumb safety, easy to use mag release, ambidextrous controls. Only downside I can find is the slide release is a little too large and the stock sights are a bit fragile

johnnydollar
October 14, 2012, 10:00 PM
Striker fired, with a great single action trigger, accurate and reliable to boot: HK P7.
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc422/johnnydollar1949/hk%20p7%20%20psp/SANY0002.jpg

If you enjoyed reading about "Striker Convert" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!