AR15: Purchasing a new rifle, but which and why?


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meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'm going to be getting a new AR in the neighborhood of early to mid December. I'm trying to keep it at a strict budget, in the area of $1K. This isn't my first rodeo, I've owned too many ARs, but I'm wanting to get another purely for a HD/farm rifle. This bugger won't likely see high round counts, not that it matters.

I've made a poll. Vote, state your case, and I'd like purely objective reasoning as to why I should choose one over another. Thanks in advance.

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henschman
October 6, 2012, 06:13 PM
I don't see the poll.

For a lower, I would go with the cheapest stripped lower you can find... brand doesn't matter. There are Surplus Ammo & Arms lowers for $80 online (plus shipping and FFL fee), or at least around here you can find them at a LGS for around $100 or not too much more.

For the upper, I would go with PSA because they have great prices, and meet or exceed the mil specs on everything. While that isn't strictly necessary, especially since you said it isn't going to see a high round count, the extra quality assurance is a good thing. HD is a pretty serious role, after all. Their chrome lined barrels in particular are very nice, being made by FN.

I would go with one of their "fall madness" uppers while they're on sale. I would go with a 16" barrel for your stated role, since you mentioned home defense, and you didn't mention a need for any longer range work. I would go with a mid-length gas system since they have the optimal dwell time for a 16" barrel, give you a little more sight radius and handguard length, and are easier on recoil and on the internal parts. For barrel profile, I would go with the lightest you can get, for ease of handling in tight quarters and for being nice to carry around the farm. I would prefer the pencil profile, but as of right now it looks like they aren't in stock. The mid-length light profile premium madness looks nice too, and is a great price at $279.99. I actually just ordered one of those myself for my Dad's AR build.

Get one of their discounted premium classic lower build kits to finish off the lower, one of their M-16 BCGs, and their discounted mil spec charging handles, and a Magpul MBUS rear sight and you are in business. Spend the rest of your budget on a good red dot sight, a flashlight + mount, and maybe some different handguards to mount the light on.

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 06:14 PM
The poll is up. Mid length is my goal, in any case. The one I want from PSA (if I go that route) is $279, stripped minus BCG and charging handle. If I build the frankengun, I'm going FA BCG by BCM.

I don't do flashlights on my rifles, and I'm loyal to the TRS-25 on ARs.

Thanks for your information.

Inebriated
October 6, 2012, 06:16 PM
I'm no AR expert, but it's my understanding that for the $1k market, the Colt 6920 is about as good as it gets for a new rifle.


/unhelpfulness

Warp
October 6, 2012, 06:20 PM
He has something against Colt and is not considering them, for some reason.

I voted for the only option with parts from what I consider to be a Top Tier manufacturer. (PSA mid with BCM BCG)

Get the Del Ton off the list/poll.

If you get a Smith and Wesson, get the M&P, maybe even the MOE edition. Not the sport. (since you list HD as a use, you cut fewer corners vs the Sport)

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 06:26 PM
He has something against Colt and is not considering them, for some reason.

I voted for the only option with parts from what I consider to be a Top Tier manufacturer. (PSA mid with BCM BCG)

Get the Del Ton off the list/poll.

If you get a Smith and Wesson, get the M&P, maybe even the MOE edition. Not the sport. (since you list HD as a use, you cut fewer corners vs the Sport)
We've had the Colt discussion.

I trust Sports, no reason not too. But, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want something different.

What's wrong with Del Ton? Lots of good reviews from those who own one!

Lastly, what lower should I purchase if I piece a rifle together. I'd buy that locally, and I'm surrounded by gun shops.

Inebriated
October 6, 2012, 06:49 PM
Drinking that hateraid? lol


I've heard no complaints about DT, though. Handled a few at the store when I was about to get one, and they were nice little rifles from what I can tell.

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 07:00 PM
Drinking that hateraid? lol


I've heard no complaints about DT, though. Handled a few at the store when I was about to get one, and they were nice little rifles from what I can tell.
Hateraid? Haven't heard that one in years! I don't hate Colt rifles, I don't like how Colt conducts business. I'm sure that seems petty, but it is what it is.

Yeah, I read a lot of good things about DT. Actually, nothing negative thus far.

Quentin
October 6, 2012, 07:13 PM
... For a lower, I would go with the cheapest stripped lower you can find... brand doesn't matter. There are Surplus Ammo & Arms lowers for $80 online (plus shipping and FFL fee), or at least around here you can find them at a LGS for around $100 or not too much more.

For the upper, I would go with PSA because they have great prices, and meet or exceed the mil specs on everything. While that isn't strictly necessary, especially since you said it isn't going to see a high round count, the extra quality assurance is a good thing. HD is a pretty serious role, after all. Their chrome lined barrels in particular are very nice, being made by FN.

I would go with one of their "fall madness" uppers while they're on sale. I would go with a 16" barrel for your stated role, since you mentioned home defense, and you didn't mention a need for any longer range work. I would go with a mid-length gas system since they have the optimal dwell time for a 16" barrel, give you a little more sight radius and handguard length, and are easier on recoil and on the internal parts. For barrel profile, I would go with the lightest you can get, for ease of handling in tight quarters and for being nice to carry around the farm. I would prefer the pencil profile, but as of right now it looks like they aren't in stock. The mid-length light profile premium madness looks nice too, and is a great price at $279.99. I actually just ordered one of those myself for my Dad's AR build.

Get one of their discounted premium classic lower build kits to finish off the lower, one of their M-16 BCGs, and their discounted mil spec charging handles, and a Magpul MBUS rear sight and you are in business. Spend the rest of your budget on a good red dot sight, a flashlight + mount, and maybe some different handguards to mount the light on.

I have to agree with everything Henschman said. I ordered a PSA 16" midlength upper during their Labor Day madness sale and they have another sale now. $280 for that good of an upper really is madness! If their $140 milspec BCG is in stock it should be fine, they do have an AR-15 BCG for about $10 less but I'd go with their M16 version instead. You'd save $20 + $10 shipping over BCM and it should be as good. (I did go with BCM's BCG because the PSA was out of stock.) The PSA charging handle is a good deal at only $15 or you could splurge for a BCM Gunfighter Mod 4 (I have two). The M4 handguards are pretty fat and a MOE handguard is a good upgrade.

The MBUS2 rear sight is indestructable and weighs only 1.3 oz I believe. I also use the 5.9 oz Bushnell TRS-25 (have two) and they work fine. Daniel Defense used to put them on a value M4 package sold to law enforcement!

If the pencil barrel is out of stock (like it was when I ordered) their midlength light profile premium madness government profile barrel only weighs a couple ounces more than my BCM pencil. (That surprised me since I expected more like 4-5 oz.) I have a picture of that upper naked in another thread if you want to see under the handguards.

As far as the stripped lower, I'd buy that locally and look at as much inventory nearby as you have time. Any 7075-T6 lower should be fine but I tend to kick in a little more to get a rollmark I like. I figure an extra $25-50 is a drop in the bucket considering the price of entire rifle, say $1000, so why not get something you're proud of! I just couldn't put a DPMS or BM rollmark on one of my builds but of course it shouldn't make a bit of difference. Locally I've bought S&W M&P-15, Valkyrie, Charles Daly and ArmaLite lowers. The first three are great and have flared magwells, the ArmaLite was rougher cosmetically but no functional issues (but I wish the magwell was flared better). I did order a Quentin Defense US Army Edition billet lower which is amazing but never built it up.

As Henschman said the PSA lower build kits are great, all milspec. The BCM receiver extension is a bit smoother but both are 7075 alloy and proper dimensions so you might as well save $25-35 here. Get their H-buffer, it works fine with midlength gas. And BTW he's right on the advantages of a 16" middy, it has the same dwell time as the 14.5" M4 and 20" M16 (about 7" from gas port to muzzle).

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 07:40 PM
^thanks for chiming in! I've got my mind set on the BCM BCG, if I piece a rifle together.

Spikes has a bunch of custom lowers, nifty roll marks and such.

Quentin
October 6, 2012, 07:53 PM
Spikes lowers have a lot of fans. No doubt they're good but I've never seen one first hand.

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 07:59 PM
Spikes lowers have a lot of fans. No doubt they're good but I've never seen one first hand.
Just looked. Back ordered like a mofo.

wally
October 6, 2012, 08:00 PM
S&W for the warranty and customer support.

LeonCarr
October 6, 2012, 08:11 PM
I have a BCM upper with a BCM BCG on a PSA lower. Everything that is supposed to be staked is staked, everything that is supposed to be torqued is torqued, and everything that is supposed to be HP/MPI is HP/MPI.

Lots of rounds through it with no problems at all.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

meanmrmustard
October 6, 2012, 08:13 PM
S&W for the warranty and customer support.
I do enjoy their service. They're very friendly, helpful, and knowledgable.

If I could muster the strength to turn the other cheek, I'd get another 6920.

Quentin
October 6, 2012, 10:24 PM
Y'know one other thing I really like about my S&W lower, it proudly says Made In USA (in addition to city/state). None of my other lowers have that.

One thing odd about it, the S&W lower doesn't have the caliber marked. And when I originally had an ArmaLite upper on it I actually had a rifle where the caliber wasn't marked anywhere! Now it has a Daniel Defense upper which is marked 5.56.

Walkalong
October 6, 2012, 11:05 PM
Buy a BCM middy upper decked out to suit your taste/needs, and install it on the lower of your choice, or just buy the Sport and use the savings from the $1000 bill to buy ammo.

Warp
October 6, 2012, 11:20 PM
I know a guy, on another forum, who put a BCM upper on a lower of his choice. It failed first time out. Hammer spring.

Fremmer
October 6, 2012, 11:27 PM
You know you like the s&w sport, it'll be less expensive, and it'll do what you want it for really well.

68wj
October 6, 2012, 11:37 PM
Not sure I would look at a gutted upper. Carriers are starting to be hard to come by as parts.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 12:09 AM
You know you like the s&w sport, it'll be less expensive, and it'll do what you want it for really well.
That I do, yes it would, and that it does.

I was trying to be different, inventive.

As a side not, my fiancé is trying to talk me into buying his/her Glocks...

WinThePennant
October 7, 2012, 12:13 AM
A PSA middy upper, BCM BCG, lower to be named "franken rifle"

I voted for this one because that's what I did with my first AR build. :)

My lower was from Spike's Tactical.

WinThePennant
October 7, 2012, 12:18 AM
I know a guy, on another forum, who put a BCM upper on a lower of his choice. It failed first time out. Hammer spring.
Isn't the hammer spring in the lower?

Warp
October 7, 2012, 12:20 AM
Isn't the hammer spring in the lower?

Bingo.

You know the theory...the upper is what really matters, the upper has all the important parts, the upper is where you should spend your money...just get a lower from some 'other' manufacturer and save some money.

Well, I believe that you get what you pay for, and trying to cut corners and go cheap absolutely increases your chances of having something like that happen.

I still can't get him to admit who made the lower, so sorry, but I don't know that.

WinThePennant
October 7, 2012, 12:27 AM
Oh, I see your point now.

Yes, I agree. Always buy quality parts for your lower. I love Stag's LPK. Also, use KNS Anti-Rotation pins. Great combination.

savanahsdad
October 7, 2012, 12:36 AM
no one has said olympic yet so I will OLYMPIC :cool:

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 12:41 AM
no one has said olympic yet so I will OLYMPIC :cool:
Ummmm....not interested. No Bushy, DPMS (although I do like the Prairie Panthers), Olympics or ASA. I'm really on the fence over those listed. Thanks for chiming in though.

savanahsdad
October 7, 2012, 01:00 AM
Ummmm....not interested. No Bushy, DPMS (although I do like the Prairie Panthers), Olympics or ASA. I'm really on the fence over those listed. Thanks for chiming in though.
ok ,, I love my K8mag , good luck , lots to pick from ,

back40
October 7, 2012, 01:00 AM
not much experience with del-ton other than small parts. customer service was great however. your other choices are fine. i'd probably go with the franken rifle. i would NOT, buy the cheapest lower you can find though. buy a lower with a good following and reviews. an out of spec lower ruins your build.

Inebriated
October 7, 2012, 01:36 AM
Hateraid? Haven't heard that one in years! I don't hate Colt rifles, I don't like how Colt conducts business. I'm sure that seems petty, but it is what it is.

Yeah, I read a lot of good things about DT. Actually, nothing negative thus far.
Not at all. Business practices are the reasons I'll not own SEVERAL brands (PSA included).

And same here. I'm probably going to end up with a DT myself.

DesertFox
October 7, 2012, 02:06 AM
I've been happier with those which I build vs. those which I purchased. Like being able to put in the exact parts I deem to be acceptable/proper for the build.

Girodin
October 7, 2012, 03:07 AM
What are you going to use the gun for?

You just missed out on PSA having 16" carbines with an aimpoint pro for $999. That was probably the best deal going.

Of your choices I would either get the PSA rifle or the PSA upper with BCM BCG. For under $1k you could also go with a BCM upper. What I would do would be based on A) what I was going to use it for B) what else I knew I for sure wanted. If one is going to add a different trigger, grip, hand guards, etc from what comes on a built rifle then getting an upper and assembling a lower with what you want might put you money ahead.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 08:27 AM
What are you going to use the gun for?

You just missed out on PSA having 16" carbines with an aimpoint pro for $999. That was probably the best deal going.

Of your choices I would either get the PSA rifle or the PSA upper with BCM BCG. For under $1k you could also go with a BCM upper. What I would do would be based on A) what I was going to use it for B) what else I knew I for sure wanted. If one is going to add a different trigger, grip, hand guards, etc from what comes on a built rifle then getting an upper and assembling a lower with what you want might put you money ahead.
Just a plinker/farm rifle. I'm thinking a build is going to be best, based soley on what I'm getting for what I'm paying.

I'm probably going to get a lower locally. My LGS has RRA, S&W, and New Frontier. Prolly going Smith on that.

I'm seeing a lot of happy Sig fans too, mainly with the Enhanced MOE. Many good reviews thus far, however, no one seems to know what barrel steel is used.

Infidel4life11
October 7, 2012, 01:17 PM
My vote is on the Build rifle, the PSA I put together is amazing. Still no CMMG lol.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 01:45 PM
My vote is on the Build rifle, the PSA I put together is amazing. Still no CMMG lol.
Could I drive there to see their rifles, or do they purely sell to dealers?

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 02:19 PM
Well, it seems my mind has been made up for me. My fiancé has gotten involved, obviously a wee bit pissed that I'm putting the effort into another rifle and the research I'm doing (think its because I've taken over the iPad :rolleyes:).

After having priced literally every configuration that I can think of and I want to buy once, cry once. So, that being said I've thought hard to swallow my pride a bit. She wants a Ruger SR22/Railmaster combo like I have, so that's got me stretched. I try to keep her happy if possible.:barf:

So, boys n girls, I've decided to buy the rifle locally so that I can inspect it and know what I'm getting. I prefer it this way. I wanted to do the build, but I'll be buying the rifle and pistol simultaneously, so I might as well buy locally and have it done in one fell swoop. What rifle, you ask? Drumroll please...

6920.

I'm going to give them another chance, but this time I'm inspecting everything prior to purchase. Why that one? Purely because of barrel steel, nothing more. LMT is uber expensive, BCM isn't bad, but I can check the Colt out and have piece of mind that the GK is staked right this time. Maybe that way ill never have to use their crappy CS. They get my money, I get a platform standard. I looked at DD as well, but I'm keeping it as close to $1000 as humanly possible. I'm not adding any crap, no optics, rails, nothing. I'll be using the KIS principle, firing with irons and keeping it as light as possible. I thank you all for your input, comments, and experiences. In the end, I'd be trying to build to the reliability standards I have for an AK, without buying another AK:)
The Colt, while not a Krebs Custom or SGL 101, is as close to a reliability as an AR is gonna get. This time, I'm making sure its right the first time.

Warp
October 7, 2012, 02:26 PM
Just a plinker/farm rifle.

In the OP you also listed HD (home defense).

Is that no longer a use of the rifle?

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 02:40 PM
In the OP you also listed HD (home defense).

Is that no longer a use of the rifle?
Yeah, it is. I incorporate that into the "farm use" category, but nobody would know that, so there that is. But, it doesn't matter. I'm getting a rifle that, after having been inspected to make sure it's all kosher, I won't have to sweat when it comes to a multi use, simple carbine. Truck gun is an AK. Plinker is an AK. I have SD pistols. I'm really just wanting a do-all carbine in 556. That being said, after checking to make sure it's built properly this time around, it's going to be a Colt.

Inebriated
October 7, 2012, 02:44 PM
6920

Boom, called it.

Not really... but sort of.

MachIVshooter
October 7, 2012, 02:45 PM
Well, if I were in the market for a new middy with a $1k budget, I'd buy an Armalite. Good gun, lifetime warranty.

But these days, I'd rather save some money, so I'd build with a DTI middy rifle kit on a decent lower and get 'er done for under $600.

Warp
October 7, 2012, 03:27 PM
Yeah, it is. I incorporate that into the "farm use" category, but nobody would know that, so there that is. But, it doesn't matter. I'm getting a rifle that, after having been inspected to make sure it's all kosher, I won't have to sweat when it comes to a multi use, simple carbine. Truck gun is an AK. Plinker is an AK. I have SD pistols. I'm really just wanting a do-all carbine in 556. That being said, after checking to make sure it's built properly this time around, it's going to be a Colt.

I think a lot of people might recommend differently knowing that you intend to use the rifle in a potential life/death role rather than just plinking or varminting around the farm.

In other words...I think it does matter.

Unless you believe that any and every AR you could buy will have an identical reliability, durability, and consistency. Or unless you don't care if you buy a less-reliable HD gun to save a few bucks.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 03:28 PM
Boom, called it.

Not really... but sort of.
Not without some soul searching did I make this decision. It's not on my poll, wasn't even a consideration until this morning. But, like I said, I don't trust them. If the rifle is manufactured correctly (this time) ill buy it. I'll never need to call them, hopefully.

Warp
October 7, 2012, 03:31 PM
6920.


A most excellent rifle!

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 03:34 PM
I think a lot of people might recommend differently knowing that you intend to use the rifle in a potential life/death role rather than just plinking or varminting around the farm.

In other words...I think it does matter.

Unless you believe that any and every AR you could buy will have an identical reliability, durability, and consistency. Or unless you don't care if you buy a less-reliable HD gun to save a few bucks.
Well, I see your point. But, you must understand that my farm IS my home. So, making things easier on myself, and ponying up a few hundred more overall, I'm going to buy the fiancées pistol and my new AR at the same time. I'd like another Sport, but they're getting harder to find locally. Colts round these parts are dime a dozen. So, barring a positive check for proper build quality, I'll be owning another 6920 in early Dec.

It's nice that you show concern. You really DO love me!!!:D

Aiko492
October 7, 2012, 03:40 PM
buy a bcm middy upper decked out to suit your taste/needs, and install it on the lower of your choice, or just buy the sport and use the savings from the $1000 bill to buy ammo.
+1, agreed

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 03:41 PM
A most excellent rifle!
But crappy CS. That being said, I'm buying this rifle FTF so I can make sure it's copacetic. If so, it's coming home. I'll never need CS, and that doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

I know Colts are fine rifles, when properly built. I'm excited, but not without my wariness. I'm going to make this my last AR, might as well be THE AR. I will not be changing a thing; it will be box stock and sitting next to dozens of loaded Pmags. Other than sighting, practice, and humps on the back 40, it's going to be at the ready.

Girodin
October 7, 2012, 04:24 PM
I think you are definitely taking the right approach with a "buy once cry once" philosophy. In the AR world there is a huge range of quality and price. The colt is a very good rifle and think is a good balance of price and quality. Its not the best one can get (or even necessarily the very best value), however it is better than a lot of other options and a good rifle. I'm excited for you and your new AR. I have one (not a colt though) that is coming to me in a couple weeks so I share the excitement.

I'm not adding any crap, no optics, rails, nothing. I'll be using the KIS principle,

I do think that keeping a gun as simple and as light as possible is a very good guiding principle. That stuff is only "crap" if A) it doesn't enhance what one is doing with the rifle B) the user doesn't know how to use it.

A QUAILITY optic like an aimpoint is almost always a good addition. A micro adds very little weight. For any kind of defensive use a light is, IMHO, a necessity. However, for most folks point B) above applies. My personal guiding principle, that informs my effort to keep a weapon simple and light, is "does this truly make the weapon better for its intended uses and am I proficient in its use."

The Colt, while not a Krebs Custom or SGL 101, is as close to a reliability as an AR is gonna get.

The colt should serve you very well. I'm not sure I'd agree that one couldn't do a bit better on the AR front. However, for 99+% of users it probably wouldn't matter one bit. People that have been exposed to lots of different ARs (typically people teaching carbine course who fire tens of thousands of rounds a year and see hundreds of thousands of rounds a year go through many many different rifles) will tell you that you start to see the differences when guns are used in a way most folks don't use them, shooting high round counts quickly and doing so for a while, getting the guns hot and dirty. One thing that really separates guns out is doing the above but with a suppressor. Off a dealers shelf I doubt you can really do better than a colt at your price range.

BCM isn't bad

BCM not only isn't bad, they are very good, and very well proven rifles. They have won the support of a lot of very knowledgeable and discerning users. I'd just as happily take a BCM as a Colt for a hard use gun. Personally I prefer a Noveske over all of them simply because one is unlikely to find another gun that is as accurate while still retaining the extreme reliability the Noveske exhibits even when run hard and/or run hard suppressed. Noveske barrels are built and the chambers cut in a manner and with QC the others simply cannot match, hence their price. Although if one is a savy shopper a N4 uppered gun can be had for around $1k. I have no reservations buying a Noveske sight unseen. The QC is top notch.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 04:35 PM
^maybe not "crap" but rather useless items on my rifle. They will not be used. I'm an optic friendly user, proficient in use specifically with red dots. I tend to stick to magnified optics on my hunting rifles. I shoot faster, more accurate at short to medium ranges, and more consistently so with good irons over a red dot. If this rifle ever gets an optic, which I'm doubtful, will be an Eotech 512.

Most I've put through an AR annually has been 3,000+ through a Sport. No hiccups. Why a Colt? Because I can. I'll probably never even see close to as many rounds through the Colt as I did the Sport, so I'm sure it'll do fine. I do train and practice, but I don't compete, only run n gun on the farm. With 6,000 acres to play on, my rifles get dirty.:)

I'm only buying the Colt over BCM due to availability within driving distance. I'm impressed with BCM. I'll let you buy me a Noveske.;)

Infidel4life11
October 7, 2012, 04:40 PM
Could I drive there to see their rifles, or do they purely sell to dealers?
I'm not 100% if they sell out of the store or not. I'm suppose to go down there later this month and take a tour (since our shop in waynesville is one of their dealers) The 6920 is a great gun, CHF CMMG barrels are made the same......just saying lol jk. I think you'll be happy with it, I've carried one (basically) for the last 8years and it hasn't let me down yet. My current units M4s are made by FN.

Warp
October 7, 2012, 05:09 PM
^maybe not "crap" but rather useless items on my rifle. They will not be used.

How can you be certain you wouldn't use a light on an HD/farm rifle??

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 05:44 PM
How can you be certain you wouldn't use a light on an HD/farm rifle??
Well, I guess that's true. I usually have a hat light that clips to my bill. But, I don't know. Never needed one before, better to have it and not need it and all that.

I am an avid Surefire user.

DNS
October 7, 2012, 05:49 PM
The Sport with the 5R rifling.

Only accurate rifles are interesting and it'll be the most accurate of all on your list.:)

Warp
October 7, 2012, 05:54 PM
Well, I guess that's true. I usually have a hat light that clips to my bill. But, I don't know. Never needed one before, better to have it and not need it and all that.

I am an avid Surefire user.

If you don't mind having a light on your head that is either on at all times (talk about making your a target), off at all times (not useful), or requires you to take your hand completely off your rifle in order to use it.

An "affordable" Surefire weapon light.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/lightsmounts_surefirel4.html

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:38 PM
The Sport with the 5R rifling.

Only accurate rifles are interesting and it'll be the most accurate of all on your list.:)
This I know. I've had many a paper punching joy with one.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:39 PM
If you don't mind having a light on your head that is either on at all times (talk about making your a target), off at all times (not useful), or requires you to take your hand completely off your rifle in order to use it.

An "affordable" Surefire weapon light.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/lightsmounts_surefirel4.html
Well, on my head or on my rifle, a target is a target. But, I will check out the link. Thank you.

Have you been using your rifle as of late?

jim243
October 7, 2012, 06:44 PM
Not to be argumentitive, but if you have a Cabela's around you may want to look at the Windham rifles, they are built as good as any Colt (even better) and have a Lifetime Warranty (not your life time but the rifles) and are transferable with the rilfe.

Jim

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:49 PM
Not to be argumentitive, but if you have a Cabela's around you may want to look at the Windham rifles, they are built as good as any Colt (even better) and have a Lifetime Warranty (not your life time but the rifles) and are transferable with the rilfe.

Jim
Why, exactly is the Windham better? It uses the same barrel steel as the Sport, but is chrome lined. Therefore, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the Sport shames the WW accuracy wise, and at a cheaper price point.

The Colt uses machine gun barrel steel, rigid and resilient. If I'm going all out, I'm getting the Colt for the same price. If I'm going budget, PSA build or the Sport which I've owned before. I'm sure they are nice, but why get less for more?

Why is it better?

jim243
October 7, 2012, 06:55 PM
Why is it better?

Because, I trust these people, I don't trust Colt or S&W to the same degree.


Jim

Warp
October 7, 2012, 06:57 PM
Well, on my head or on my rifle, a target is a target. But, I will check out the link. Thank you.

Have you been using your rifle as of late?

The difference, and the point, is that you can control, immediately, whether the light is on or off, without removing your hand from the rifle. Hopefully you wouldn't just turn the rifle mounted light on and leave it on for the entirety in a situation where somebody might be targeting you.

Haven't shot it for weeks. Will have it at another Appleseed two weeks from today. Will probably go o the range once before then to get my zero back to 25 yards, and verify. I only have about 675 rounds through it so far. I'll get hundreds more by next month.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:58 PM
Because, I trust these people, I don't trust Colt or S&W to the same degree.


Jim
I'm in that boat, but I'm willing to give Colt another try.

Smith has my loyalty.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 07:03 PM
The difference, and the point, is that you can control, immediately, whether the light is on or off, without removing your hand from the rifle. Hopefully you wouldn't just turn the rifle mounted light on and leave it on for the entirety in a situation where somebody might be targeting you.

Haven't shot it for weeks. Will have it at another Appleseed two weeks from today. Will probably go o the range once before then to get my zero back to 25 yards, and verify. I only have about 675 rounds through it so far. I'll get hundreds more by next month.
Sweet deal.

As far as the light goes, I'm not so much worried about who is targeting me as much as "what" is targeting me. We have bold coyote packs, many stray dogs.

Cougar sightings in my county, those to the north, and bears are pushing northward from Arkansas. Mustn't forget increasing hog populations. I'm more likely to encounter a rabid coyote or quite possibly a mountain lion, than I am an assailant on my property.

jim243
October 7, 2012, 07:05 PM
I'd trust S&W over Colt. But I'd trust Ruger over S&W. The only rifle company I would trust more is Savage, but I don't think they make an AR. (LOL)

Good Luck, it is never easy when spending hard earn cash, I know.
Jim

Warp
October 7, 2012, 07:07 PM
I'd trust S&W over Colt. But I'd trust Ruger over S&W. The only rifle company I would trust more is Savage, but I don't think they make an AR. (LOL)

Good Luck, it is never easy when spending hard earn cash, I know.
Jim

I wasn't aware that Ruger made high quality, reputable AR15s...

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 07:18 PM
I wasn't aware that Ruger made high quality, reputable AR15s...
Reputable, maybe not. High quality, not certain. High priced, absolutely. They're not on my list of possibles.

justice06rr
October 8, 2012, 12:14 AM
Spikes is an excellent company, if you get lucky and find a complete lower from them. Thankfully they are local to me and I have a couple of they're lowers. Nothing but high quality and good things to say about them.

If you wanted to build your own rifle (or just the lower) I'd highly recommend Spikes. There's a good reason they are always back-ordered, because of the high demand for their quality products. Your best bet in finding one is at a local gun show or a private sale.

Out of your poll I would suggest the SigM400. Price is about right. I also have a thing about buying a complete AR vs building one: you get the warranty from the manufacturer in case anything is amiss. When you build one from parts, if anything goes wrong you have to fix/replace parts on your own dime. I kinda hate that when things wear out or break on my M4geries, but its the nature of the animal.

Anyway good luck with your choice. You can't really go wrong with any of them, Although I'll put Delton on the bottom of my list.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:17 AM
Spikes is an excellent company, if you get lucky and find a complete lower from them. Thankfully they are local to me and I have a couple of they're lowers. Nothing but high quality and good things to say about them.

If you wanted to build your own rifle (or just the lower) I'd highly recommend Spikes. There's a good reason they are always back-ordered, because of the high demand for their quality products. Your best bet in finding one is at a local gun show or a private sale.

Out of your poll I would suggest the SigM400. Price is about right. I also have a thing about buying a complete AR vs building one: you get the warranty from the manufacturer in case anything is amiss. When you build one from parts, if anything goes wrong you have to fix/replace parts on your own dime. I kinda hate that when things wear out or break on my M4geries, but its the nature of the animal.

Anyway good luck with your choice. You can't really go wrong with any of them, Although I'll put Delton on the bottom of my list.

He decided on a Colt 6920

meanmrmustard
October 8, 2012, 12:22 AM
Spikes is an excellent company, if you get lucky and find a complete lower from them. Thankfully they are local to me and I have a couple of they're lowers. Nothing but high quality and good things to say about them.

If you wanted to build your own rifle (or just the lower) I'd highly recommend Spikes. There's a good reason they are always back-ordered, because of the high demand for their quality products. Your best bet in finding one is at a local gun show or a private sale.

Out of your poll I would suggest the SigM400. Price is about right. I also have a thing about buying a complete AR vs building one: you get the warranty from the manufacturer in case anything is amiss. When you build one from parts, if anything goes wrong you have to fix/replace parts on your own dime. I kinda hate that when things wear out or break on my M4geries, but its the nature of the animal.

Anyway good luck with your choice. You can't really go wrong with any of them, Although I'll put Delton on the bottom of my list.
I'm getting a 6920. Thanks for the input though.

justice06rr
October 8, 2012, 12:23 AM
Oops a bit late on this I guess, but he made a good choice! Hopefully Colt treats him good this time.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:29 AM
Oops a bit late on this I guess, but he made a good choice! Hopefully Colt treats him good this time.

I like to check what has been posted over the 2+ pages before posting a reply. ;)

Girodin
October 8, 2012, 12:57 AM
Spikes is an excellent company

I've been turned off by the representatives' online behavior. I've seen them make open and unprovoked as well as unsubstantiated attacks on competitors among other behavior. Not what I'd call an "excellent" company.

Thankfully they are local to me and I have a couple of they're (sic) lowers. Nothing but high quality and good things to say about them.


They make stuff that is comparable to PSA in quality, but simply more expensive. Which is probably why they show so much open disdain for PSA, who I can only guess has seriously cut into their market share over the past couple years.

I'd rather have the Colt the OP is buying than a comparable spikes gun.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:58 AM
I've been turned off by the representatives' online behavior. I've seen them make open and unprovoked as well as unsubstantiated attacks on competitors among other behavior. Not what I'd call an "excellent" company.

You are FAAAR from the only one to have observed this and come to this opinion/conclusion.

Infidel4life11
October 8, 2012, 01:11 AM
Just to add to the convo, I've been to a few courses with this same topic about lights being a target. I don't know when the last time you tried to shoot with an LED light in your eyes. I fine it next to impossible to hit anything with that light in my eyes. I've had my Soldiers and instructors try it many times just to prove a point. Not being mean just sharing some experience.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 02:41 AM
Just to add to the convo, I've been to a few courses with this same topic about lights being a target. I don't know when the last time you tried to shoot with an LED light in your eyes. I fine it next to impossible to hit anything with that light in my eyes. I've had my Soldiers and instructors try it many times just to prove a point. Not being mean just sharing some experience.

Because you are guaranteed to hit every adversary in the eyes with your light at all times when it is activated.

MachIVshooter
October 8, 2012, 03:02 AM
An "affordable" Surefire weapon light.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/lightsm...urefirel4.html

I have a not-so-affordable ($350) Surefire on my AR-10 carbine, and it's slated to be replaced by the less expensive and vastly superior US-made Streamlight TLR-1HP. I have a standard TLR-1 on my nightstand gun and a TLR-1HP on my Armalite M15A2 Carbine. They're not the cheapest or most expensive lights on the market, and I have not found anything better

Surefire is just making you pay an awful lot for a name these days, IMO.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 03:15 AM
I have a not-so-affordable ($350) Surefire on my AR-10 carbine, and it's slated to be replaced by the less expensive and vastly superior US-made Streamlight TLR-1HP. I have a standard TLR-1 on my nightstand gun and a TLR-1HP on my Armalite M15A2 Carbine. They're not the cheapest or most expensive lights on the market, and I have not found anything better

Surefire is just making you pay an awful lot for a name these days, IMO.

Which is why I was happy to find this one for $175. The head and tailcap are from the Scout weaponlight and the body is from an E2D-L

Girodin
October 8, 2012, 03:21 AM
I'm only buying the Colt over BCM due to availability within driving distance. I'm impressed with BCM. I'll let you buy me a Noveske.

I just thought I'd note that you can get a Noveske uppered gun for about $1K, or roughly the price of the colt, if you shop smart and don't have to have it tomorrow. Their N4 light upper which is the configuration you want runs about $800. If you wait for Midway to have a $100 off on orders over $xxx sale it becomes about $700. That gives you nearly 300 to do a lower. I'd also note the Noveske comes with a Vortex flash hider which is probably $50 more than the A2 birdcage on the colt (and is much more effective in my experience shooting in low light).

Honestly though, it sounds as if for your uses you likely wouldn't see any real difference between the colt you are getting and the gun described above (or a PSA or BCM for that matter). If you are going to shoot irons from field positions you will never notice the difference in accuracy. It sounds as if the gun wont be shot suppressed and not run real real hard. I doubt you'll ever feel bad about your Colt.

Most of the critiques I see about light use clearly come from folks that have no training in using a light and don't really understand the how and why of using a light.

don't know when the last time you tried to shoot with an LED light in your eyes. I fine it next to impossible to hit anything with that light in my eyes.

Did that involve shooting right into the light? Try that force on force with an airsoft. I think it is probably true that a very bright light in the eyes will daze some people. Also I doubt that all bad guys in all situations are walking around gun out ready to instantly engage a light source. That said to act as if a light couldn't ever draw fire is naive.

There is a lot more to using lights, and a lot more issues to consider, than most people think.

meanmrmustard
October 8, 2012, 08:39 AM
I'm sure that I'll be happy with the Colt, assuming as I've said, it's correctly built this time.

Trained or not, a weapon light on this rifle isn't practical for me.

SW40
October 8, 2012, 01:26 PM
He has something against Colt and is not considering them, for some reason.

I voted for the only option with parts from what I consider to be a Top Tier manufacturer. (PSA mid with BCM BCG)

Get the Del Ton off the list/poll.

If you get a Smith and Wesson, get the M&P, maybe even the MOE edition. Not the sport. (since you list HD as a use, you cut fewer corners vs the Sport)
Whats wrong with Del-Ton these days? I have the Del-Ton Extreme Duty 316 that has everything the Colt 6920 has with plenty of rounds through it and no issues at all. I know a few years ago Del Ton BCGs had issues.

PSA isnt top tier. DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske are and you pay top tier prices. Del Ton after they changed their manufacturing process and PSA I would put in second tier. (Old Del-Ton from 2010 and earlier I would put at bottom tier.)

Smith and Wesson is probably between second and top tier. Kinda weird.

That is if you believe in all this "tier nonsense". A gun is either reliable or not reliable. Anyways, I dont know much about that Del Ton Dissipator. But the others are solid choices I know.

But as for whats on the list, Id go with the M&P Sport. Unless you will be using for HD in the desert you wont need a DC. Ive never had to use the charging handle on my ARs....just saying. Plus the cost savings would be great. Not sure what corners are being "cut" on the sport. But unless you are taking the AR into a war zone the Sport will serve you well.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 02:17 PM
Whats wrong with Del-Ton these days? I have the Del-Ton Extreme Duty 316 that has everything the Colt 6920 has with plenty of rounds through it and no issues at all. I know a few years ago Del Ton BCGs had issues.

PSA isnt top tier. DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske are and you pay top tier prices. Del Ton after they changed their manufacturing process and PSA I would put in second tier. (Old Del-Ton from 2010 and earlier I would put at bottom tier.)

Smith and Wesson is probably between second and top tier. Kinda weird.

That is if you believe in all this "tier nonsense". A gun is either reliable or not reliable. Anyways, I dont know much about that Del Ton Dissipator. But the others are solid choices I know.

But as for whats on the list, Id go with the M&P Sport. Unless you will be using for HD in the desert you wont need a DC. Ive never had to use the charging handle on my ARs....just saying. Plus the cost savings would be great. Not sure what corners are being "cut" on the sport. But unless you are taking the AR into a war zone the Sport will serve you well.

He decided on Colt 6920, believe it or not.

If you go with "a gun is either reliable or not reliable", you still may want to quantify your chances of getting the gun that is reliable when you purchase a particular model from a particular manufacturer. Some seem to have a higher percentage of "reliable" than others. That's a simple way of explaining why we talk about rifles in tiers. It's only logical. There are a crap ton of AR manufacturers and as we all know they are not all created equal. Yet, it would be silly and basically impossible to attempt to rank every single manufacturer (or model) from best to worst. Much easier to grab similar quality manufacturers/rifles and lump them together with their nearest kin.

I don't disagree with any of your opinions or rankings.

I do disagree with the theory of buying a DelTon because they moved up in quality in the last couple of years. For such a substantial purchase (for me, and seemingly for the OP as well) I want as much confidence as I can get, and I just can not be confident in a company that was making a sub-par product just a couple of years ago. There are too many options that have been making great stuff for too long. I'd rather go with one of them.

If I were to step down from "Tier 1" I would probably do as you suggest and get a Smith and Wesson. I don't know that it would be a Sport, maybe I'd shop around for a well priced M&P. Or maybe it would be a Sport.

I'd go PSA over DelTon as well. But Smith and Wesson over both.

henschman
October 8, 2012, 03:20 PM
FYI the excellent barrels that Noveske uses, with the double thick chrome lining, are made for them by FN. PSA sells mil-spec uppers with the exact same barrels for significantly less money.

I know the OP already decided on a Colt, but several members were raving about the quality of Noveske barrels and talking about how they are higher tier than PSA and whatnot.

Mr. Mustard, I hope you find an acceptable Colt, and enjoy! I would definitely re-consider on the rifle mounted light though. I hate needless accessories as much as the next guy, but a good light is far from needless. Quite the opposite actually. There are some very sleek ones like the aforementioned Surefire and Streamlight TLR that don't add much weight at all to a KISS rifle. Check out some training videos online about night firing and light use, and hopefully you will see how helpful it could really be in a night time gunfight (which is of course when most of them go down).

Warp
October 8, 2012, 04:16 PM
FYI the excellent barrels that Noveske uses, with the double thick chrome lining, are made for them by FN. PSA sells mil-spec uppers with the exact same barrels for significantly less money.

Do you have a verifiable source indicating that those barrels are exactly the same?

BTW: I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that PSA no longer meets the "mil-spec" designation on their uppers as they no longer MPI the bolts.

WinThePennant
October 8, 2012, 04:38 PM
Do you have a verifiable source indicating that those barrels are exactly the same?

BTW: I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that PSA no longer meets the "mil-spec" designation on their uppers as they no longer MPI the bolts.
Do what I did and buy a BCM BCG and install it in a PSA barrelled upper assembly.

Honestly, I don't know if FN makes PSA or if PSA uses FN's steel blend. Either way, I really like PSA's barrelled uppers. And, I love the price.

FitGunner
October 8, 2012, 05:08 PM
I did a low cost build for my AR. All total came in at $600 and it could have been less by choosing a cheaper bcg and charging handle. Now PSA has their complete uppers for even less than I paid a few months ago. It does everything I want (plinking/HD) without costing $1k. BCM makes some great stuff.
PSA mid-length light profile 16"
BCM bolt carrier group
BCM gunfighter charging handle
New Frontier Armory complete lower (yes it is polymer but I trust it after seeing the amount of abuse it can take)
Magpul back up rear sight

henschman
October 8, 2012, 06:39 PM
The M-16 bolt carrier groups that PSA sells on their website for $139.99 are HPT and MPI. I called and spoke to one of their reps to verify this before ordering.

As for the barrels being the same as Noveske, well, Noveske states that these barrels are made for them by FN. Palmetto also sells AR barrels made by FN that have the exact same description (double thick chrome lining, machine gun steel, HPT/MPI). It makes a lot more sense that these are the same barrels than it does to think that FN has 2 different production lines for this type of barrel, one that makes them with excellent quality to sell to Noveske, and one that makes them with less quality to sell to everybody else. So I guess my question to you would be, do you have a verifiable source saying that they are not the same as other FN barrels of this type?

Warp
October 8, 2012, 06:52 PM
The M-16 bolt carrier groups that PSA sells on their website for $139.99 are HPT and MPI. I called and spoke to one of their reps to verify this before ordering.

As for the barrels being the same as Noveske, well, Noveske states that these barrels are made for them by FN. Palmetto also sells AR barrels made by FN that have the exact same description (double thick chrome lining, machine gun steel, HPT/MPI). It makes a lot more sense that these are the same barrels than it does to think that FN has 2 different production lines for this type of barrel, one that makes them with excellent quality to sell to Noveske, and one that makes them with less quality to sell to everybody else. So I guess my question to you would be, do you have a verifiable source saying that they are not the same as other FN barrels of this type?

No, I don't have a verifiable source saying they are not the same. However, I don't like to make assumptions and then tell people it's a fact.

You flat out stated that "PSA sells mil-spec uppers with the exact same barrels for significantly less money.". But you do not know this. There is already far too much misinformation being spread to just make an assumption and start telling people that it is fact.

Also, even if they were all made on the same line that still doesn't necessarily mean they are equal. Consider this: Wolf Match Extra and Wolf Match Target (.22lr ammunition) are exactly the same. But not. They are all made the same, but when each lot is tested for accuracy the ones that perform better become Match Extra, the ones that perform acceptably (but not to the higher standard) become Match Target. Production and testing/QC methods like this are not uncommon. So, even if your assumption about those barrels by FN is true, and they are all made to the same specs on the same line, that STILL doesn't necessarily mean that they are "the exact same", as even then Noveske could be getting the "cream of the crop". Which they would surely be paying for, thus explaining the cost difference to the end consumer.

I seriously think that it is a bad idea to just make assumptions and then go around telling people that it is fact.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 06:56 PM
The M-16 bolt carrier groups that PSA sells on their website for $139.99 are HPT and MPI.

Do you have a link to this product?

I am fairly certain that things have changed.

Example: I see this product (out of stock)

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/upper-parts/bolt-carrier-groups/m16-bolt-carrier-group.html

Read carefully. Nothing about HPT or MPI. I have asked about products like this, of PSA directly, on another forum. They beat around the bush and never actually answered the question directly. Given the listing + their refusal to clarify I can come to no conclusion other than them not being HPT or MPI.

This would explain why they don't just call it a mil-spec item, but instead hand select which aspect of the item meet the mil-spec and tell us about those.


Edit: For any body interested, here is the thread over on M4C where I (and at least one other poster) tried to get a straight answer out of PSA (or anybody) about whether or not their bolts were HPT/MPI. PSA never did respond directly to such a simple inquiry.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=108867

Look for posts by myself and "Pork Chop", if you are so inclined to look further into this issue.

meanmrmustard
October 8, 2012, 09:12 PM
On a side not from the PSA info being batted back and forth, took an extended lunch with my buddy whom I talked into buying the Sport.

We decided to make a range trip, but all he had (against my advice) was a dry case of Herters. One must do what one must do, plus, it's his gun not mine.

It ate, fired, and spit out 200 rounds of steel like it was mad at it!!!:evil:

Infidel4life11
October 8, 2012, 10:09 PM
On a side not from the PSA info being batted back and forth, took an extended lunch with my buddy whom I talked into buying the Sport.

We decided to make a range trip, but all he had (against my advice) was a dry case of Herters. One must do what one must do, plus, it's his gun not mine.

It ate, fired, and spit out 200 rounds of steel like it was mad at it!!!:evil:
Thats a good deal. The only reason I don't shoot steel out of my CMMG is because it voids the warrenty. My Sport and RRA M4gery chew it like no one's business.

marine 97-03
October 8, 2012, 11:48 PM
M&p sport ......

meanmrmustard
October 9, 2012, 12:03 AM
M&p sport ......
May be a possibility if I keep bugging out over another Glock.

Okiegunner
October 9, 2012, 12:52 AM
MM,

You and I have corresponded a couple of times. I am sure the Colt will serve you well.

You know...you always here that a lower is a lower is a lower. Yet try and find a BCM or LMT, etc., lower in stock. They do not exist!! A quality lower must count for something. (which I am sure the 6920 has)

I have been very happy these past few weeks with my Del-ton Echo H barrel carbine. Fits together very tightly and shoots just fine. Sorry, I digress a little bit.

Just to let you know...Riflegear has a DD made upper with a 1 in 7 CHF, CL, made by FN, with a YHM gas block, for $379.00. I am going to a BCM FA BCG and the BCM (Vltor) "Gunfighter" CH. Some YHM Diamond Series quad rails along with a DD vertical grip. Should be about $580.00.

Now...what I need is a good quality lower to add this upper to (and some premium optics)

Anyhow, without the optics...should be able to field this for less than 1K. Of course, you are probably able to field the 6920 for no more than what I am doing, AND, receive a complete rifle from the beginning!!

Just two different routes for the same purpose I suppose.

Anyway...I am still searching for that quality lower, any suggestions?

Gunner

kyletx1911
October 9, 2012, 05:04 PM
He has something against Colt and is not considering them, for some reason.

I voted for the only option with parts from what I consider to be a Top Tier manufacturer. (PSA mid with BCM BCG)

Get the Del Ton off the list/poll.

If you get a Smith and Wesson, get the M&P, maybe even the MOE edition. Not the sport. (since you list HD as a use, you cut fewer corners vs the Sport)
so sir tell me whats wrong with delton? i own one and after 3k rds nary a problem
i get that most think that del-ton is a pos but i will put it up against anything else, fit and finish compared to others no.chromed lined no. tac fan lovers special no. but for 800.00
mag-pul all round in .556 it does the job!!!! target pics are from 50-75 yards with a 20mph wind open sights just scoped it out with a redfield 3x9 400 should close the groups up.

powder
October 9, 2012, 06:26 PM
$800 for the SIG M400 shipped, no CC fees or sales tax on GunBroker.

Middy, quality, excellent company for warranty work. Get some!

meanmrmustard
October 9, 2012, 07:25 PM
$800 for the SIG M400 shipped, no CC fees or sales tax on GunBroker.

Middy, quality, excellent company for warranty work. Get some!
The 16-BC?

Warp
October 9, 2012, 08:50 PM
so sir tell me whats wrong with delton?

I view things the opposite way. If hundreds and hundreds of hard earned dollars to be spent on an item, it needs to prove to me that it is worth that expense.

So, you tell me...why does the Delton deserve $800 of somebody's hard earned money?

kyletx1911
October 9, 2012, 08:54 PM
its proven it self to me no problems runs every thing i feed it does everything i want it
to what more proof do we need?

Warp
October 9, 2012, 09:04 PM
its proven it self to me no problems runs every thing i feed it does everything i want it
to what more proof do we need?


The specs must really suck if there isn't a single thing you can point out to justify spending $800 on it.

And I'm sorry if this offends you, but one random person on the internet claiming to have a few thousands rounds without problems through one single rifle is nowhere near proof enough to justify me recommending somebody spend $800 on one.

When you say it does everything you want it to...what is that?

kyletx1911
October 9, 2012, 09:14 PM
you win still learning about specs etc so you have proven that you are smarter than i.
sleep well what i want it to do is hit what i aim at

Warp
October 9, 2012, 09:16 PM
you win still learning about specs etc so you have proven that you are smarter than i.
sleep well what i want it to do is hit what i aim at

Why did you choose to purchase it?

Can you quantify "hit what I aim at"?

MachIVshooter
October 9, 2012, 09:21 PM
Why did you choose to purchase it?

Can you quantify "hit what I aim at"?

Leave him be, man.

We know the DTI is no DD or Noveske, but they're decent rifles with affordable price tags. Unless you're going down the mil-spec list and valuing the rifles based on this (relatively unimportant) criteria, whatever rifle performs with a level of accuracy and reliability that you deem OK is a good rifle for you.

Personally, I have yet to see a DTI that didn't run just fine. I'd say they're worth what they go for. For an assembled rifle, I'd rather spend a little more for another Armalite, but if building one, it's hard to beat the value DTI represents; You can assemble a complete, no-frills M-4gery or middy for $600.

meanmrmustard
October 9, 2012, 09:31 PM
you win still learning about specs etc so you have proven that you are smarter than i.
sleep well what i want it to do is hit what i aim at
Nobody wins. It's not a competition. You bought what you wanted, and that's most important. My purchasing guidelines at this time have steered me towards the Colt 6920 (used to be LE, not SP) and what that rifle offers.

For guns at or under $800 that I've no qualms going to Hell with, it'd be something in line with what the 6920 can offer, or the dad gum Sport. I honestly put Del Ton on the poll in order to have users give me objective reasoning for purchasing from them. Not thus far, has that happened.

Why the Sport? It's lightweight, mil spec feed ramps, Melonite coating that allows for excellent corrosion resistance beyond the surface of the metal., and is more uniform than chrome. It has 5r rifling, making it accurate in such a way that no two opposing lands have excess surface pressure on the bullet. It is 1:8 twist, a nice middle ground for bullet weight and size stabilization. It comes in a package that comes in under $800, more often than not, a hundred or so less than that.

These are things I'm looking for. Not just that it hits what you aim at.

back40
October 9, 2012, 09:49 PM
i see you've decided to go with the colt. i think you'll be plenty satisfied.

as for the weapon light, i use a tlr-1 that i like quite well. it can be found for ~$100

meanmrmustard
October 9, 2012, 09:54 PM
i see you've decided to go with the colt. i think you'll be plenty satisfied.

as for the weapon light, i use a tlr-1 that i like quite well. it can be found for ~$100
Not sure ill be buying one, a light I mean. I have two on handguns, and those are on my hip at night if I'm out on the property. Although, I might be a victim of the Heisenberg principle.

back40
October 9, 2012, 10:23 PM
adding a light is purely based on how you intend to use the rifle. just wanted to let you know about the tlr series. affrodable, and they work great.

WinThePennant
October 9, 2012, 10:25 PM
I put a TLR-3 on my ARs. Love that little light. Plenty bright enough and adds practically no weight to the gun.

MachIVshooter
October 10, 2012, 12:02 AM
I put a TLR-3 on my ARs. Love that little light. Plenty bright enough and adds practically no weight to the gun.

The TLR-3 is an excellent compact light, but it's a handgun light. The TLR-1HP is designed to complement a rifle's range capability. Not the best choice for indoor use with it's narrower beam, but they cast that illumination a looooooong way. Like HID car headlight long.

WinThePennant
October 10, 2012, 12:08 AM
The TLR-3 is an excellent compact light, but it's a handgun light. The TLR-1HP is designed to complement a rifle's range capability. Not the best choice for indoor use with it's narrower beam, but they cast that illumination a looooooong way. Like HID car headlight long.
It is a "handgun" light, but it throws up to 25 yards easy.

If I ever need an AR in the dark, it will be for 'social work' (ie, self defense) inside the house. For me, the TLR-3 is perfect.

Now, that said, I will most likely upgrade the TLR-3 to another lightweight and compact light. I'm thinking about the INFORCE WML. Heck, the ELZETTA mount looks interesting.

MachIVshooter
October 10, 2012, 12:27 AM
It is a "handgun" light, but it throws up to 25 yards easy.

And further. I didn't mean to imply that it's not an excellent light. That said, on a full size handgun or rifle, I prefer the brighter, wider beam of the TLR-1 for the extra 1.5 ounces it weighs.

If I ever need an AR in the dark, it will be for 'social work' (ie, self defense) inside the house. For me, the TLR-3 is perfect.

And indoors, the TLR-1, 2, 3 or 4 are better choices than the HP. The HP has a narrower and far more intense beam. I live in the sticks, and the AR is at the ready if a contingent of coyotes shows up to be a nuisance. Yeah, I've got night vision, but the TLR-equipped AR gives a wider FOV, and is faster for target acquisition and follow-up shots.

meanmrmustard
October 10, 2012, 12:37 AM
I'm probably not putting a light on the rifle. If you shut it off for any reason, you've lost your night vision acuity. In the home, probably not an issue. If I'm a quarter mile from home, walking back to the truck with the light recently turned off, I have to wait for the cones and rods in my eyes to adjust. If I leave it on, I'm a walking beacon. I have them on my handguns, but rarely use them, if ever. What I'd really like to have is thermal imaging...just kidding.:rolleyes:

Warp
October 10, 2012, 12:39 AM
I'm probably not putting a light on the rifle. If you shut it off for any reason, you've lost your night vision acuity. In the home, probably not an issue. If I'm a quarter mile from home, walking back to the truck with the light recently turned off, I have to wait for the cones and rods in my eyes to adjust. If I leave it on, I'm a walking beacon. I have them on my handguns, but rarely use them, if ever. What I'd really like to have is thermal imaging...just kidding.:rolleyes:

Leave it off, unless you really need to identify a target, then turn it on. Worry about night vision later. Kind of like you wouldn't hold your fire for fear of hurting your hearing when faced with an attacker

meanmrmustard
October 10, 2012, 12:46 AM
Leave it off, unless you really need to identify a target, then turn it on. Worry about night vision later. Kind of like you wouldn't hold your fire for fear of hurting your hearing when faced with an attacker
I can spotlight coyotes, just not in tandem with calls. Other than that, I'm not usually out and about at night. I'm not buying excuses to not equip a light, I'm just not sold on a good reason to.

Fremmer
October 10, 2012, 09:04 PM
Lol, do the smart thing and skip the ar. Buy the glocks instead and make her happy. :cool:

meanmrmustard
October 10, 2012, 09:31 PM
Lol, do the smart thing and skip the ar. Buy the glocks instead and make her happy. :cool:
Heh. She's talking G26 with Railmaster. I'm thinking, Xmas bonus and my raise...Colt 6920 and FN 5.7. I don't really have use for the FN other than I don't own one. IDK, I've always wanted a G20 too.

Either way, she'll be happy.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 04:00 PM
Heh. She's talking G26 with Railmaster. I'm thinking, Xmas bonus and my raise...Colt 6920 and FN 5.7. I don't really have use for the FN other than I don't own one. IDK, I've always wanted a G20 too.

Either way, she'll be happy.

So I assume that waiting for Christmas bonus to buy an AR probably didn't work out too well?

:(

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