The AR can wait: CZ, Sako, Kimber...


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The_Next_Generation
October 7, 2012, 01:13 AM
Hey all,

Im in the market for a new bolt gun in .308 or 30-06 for general NA hunting (whichever I can get a better deal on/is available). I have narrowed it down to the following choices:

CZ 550
Kimber Montana/84 series
Sako A7 (stainless)
Tikka T3 (stainless)
and of course..
Winchester Model 70 (stainless/extreme weather)

In this case, quality, accuracy, and ruggedness come before cost. However, I would like to keep things around $1000 at the most (I am not opposed to buying used either).

Preferably, I want my rifle to have iron sights, just because I like shooting with them every now and then. I also prefer a CRF (mauser-type) action, but if other rifles without this are higher quality then I can forgo this.



Some other questions I have...

Do the Tikkas really feel that cheap? (shot a .223 hunter and DANG that was a smooooooth bolt :what:)

Is the Sako worth the extra $$ over the Tikka? (I've heard they shoot the same)

This gun needs to be able to take some abuse. It may get rained on and will may live in a humid environment for a few days. Is stainless necessary?

I checked some threads that talked about these rifles, but from what I've read the Winchester m70 may have surpassed the CZ 550 in quality. Is this true?

What does the Kimber bring to the table that the others do not?

An excellent trigger is essential to me. Is the CZ set trigger really that much better?


So..if ya'll were looking for a new bolt gun to be your go-to hunting rifle for the foreseeable future, would it be the Winchester, CZ, Kimber, Sako, or Tikka? I will be headed to the LGS to handle as many as possible soon.

Don't forget to answer the poll!

All input is appreciated,

- TNG

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Halal Pork
October 7, 2012, 01:36 AM
I am a fan of the CZ 550. It has its pros and cons of course.

What I like:

-Materials: Steel and walnut (or kevlar) and nothing else. Nothing is plastic I can find.
-Mauser action
-Trigger: It is easily adjustable.
-There won't be 10 other people at the range checking zeros on their CZ rifles.

What some may not like:

-Length of pull: Might be a bit long for some folks.
-Weight: People looking for ultra-light rifles are going to be disappointed.
-Using a large scope, it is impossible to use low-mount rings.

All things considered, I think the CZ 550 is one of the best production rifles out there for people who are interested in what is essentially a throw back to a past generation's rifle.

rspeters
October 7, 2012, 02:03 AM
I'll chime in on the CZ set trigger, yes it is that much better…IMO. I've tried several other rifles and still prefer it the most. I love the ability to set it to the weight of your preference, and then when you're ready to use it just click it forward, and pull the trigger. Also I like the fact that I don't have to use it if for some reason I want that heavier pull.

Inebriated
October 7, 2012, 02:14 AM
Savage guy, checking in. The Hog Hunter .308 would be a great choice. Irons, great trigger, very accurate out-of-box...

Robert
October 7, 2012, 09:38 AM
I went with Winchester for my hunting rifle and could not be happier.

Welding Rod
October 7, 2012, 02:24 PM
Tough choice, those are some nice rifles. If it were me I would take the T3 out of the mix. I had one and was not impressed with the accuracy or the scope mounting system.

New Winchester 70s and CZs are really nice! I would go to that HUGE gun shop in Portland area (Sorry, I can't think of the name - they have their warehouse across the street from their shop) and handle a few copies of each in order to decide.

Welding Rod
October 7, 2012, 02:29 PM
Ok, here it is: http://keithssporting.com/
When I was looking for CZ .22s I went down there and they a bunch. They would run across the street their warehouse and grab 2 or 3 so I could pick the one I wanted. They even had a TRG 42 and Barrett 98B on the shelf. Quite a shop.

stubbicatt
October 7, 2012, 02:43 PM
I voted for the CZ. I don't know so much about the others, but I sure like my CZ. It is a nicely finished piece of equipment and has been very accurate for me. It is easy to put a scope on, and generally well balanced with nice wood.

hardluk1
October 7, 2012, 03:25 PM
CZ 550 american. For the high quality composite stock for a hunting rifle. And a sightron s-11 scope

The_Next_Generation
October 7, 2012, 04:24 PM
Looks like I'll definitely have to check out the CZs! And Weldin Rod, unfortunately I am not currently living in the PNW (studying at Georgia Tech). Robert, what made you choose the Winchester over others?

Thanks again,

-TNG

jmr40
October 7, 2012, 06:57 PM
, quality, accuracy, and ruggedness come before cost.

If this is the case then the only 2 players you listed are CZ and Winchester. I like the other choices, but they are not in the same league when it comes to quality and ruggedness. Not CRF either. The Sako/Tikka have a reputation for accuacy,but won't beat my Winchester.

Winchester is my choice since the CZ is wood/blue. The stainless/synthetic doesn't look as classy, but will prove more durable in the long run. I have an EW in 308. It has become my goto rifle. I also have a Kimber Montana in 308. A great rifle too, but it is a very spcialized rifle in my opinion. Well made but almost too light for a general purpose gun. It is as accurate as the Winchester, but from field positions I shoot the Winchester a hair better.

If on a budget don't overlook Rugers All Weather gun. They are not as refined, but new versions shoot as well as anything and I doubt if you will find anything anymore rugged. About $300 cheaper than a Winchester or $500 less than a Kimber.

primalmu
October 7, 2012, 08:47 PM
I'll second the Hog Hunter. I am impressed with the quality of mine. I haven't shot it yet, but being a Savage I'm not worried about accuracy.

browningguy
October 7, 2012, 08:57 PM
It depends, a factory Savage will be as good as any in the accuracy department. But if you are looking for really fine workmanship then Sako or Kimber would be my choice out of the ones you listed.

Yes, if the gun may spend much of it's life wet then stainless would be helpful, if you don't like the shiny stainless then get it ceracoated to whatever color you want.

cpt-t
October 7, 2012, 09:10 PM
The Next Generation: I shoot a CZ 550 in a 30-06, and can`t think of any problems that I have had with it or any of our other CZ Rifles. The Single Set Trigger is just great, the action is smooth as glass, very strong action. The rifle is super accurate and any factory load I have tried will shoot and inch or less at a 100yd, and my reloads will shoot much better. I don`t have any complaints with any of our CZ Rifles, and My Son and I own several. If we were going to buy another rifle and had to choose from the ones you listed we would buy the CZ. Keep me posted on your choice. GOOD LUCK TO YOU: ken

HKGuns
October 7, 2012, 10:21 PM
Is the Sako worth the extra $$ over the Tikka? (I've heard they shoot the same)


Yes, I've owned both and the A-7 or one of the other Sako models are worth the extra $$ over the Tikka. If, however, all you can afford is a Tikka I would recommend it over the others on your list.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v18/p851816651-5.jpg

I6turbo
October 7, 2012, 10:42 PM
I think you would like a CZ 550 if you appreciate old-school style craftsmanship, blue steel and walnut, a great adjustable trigger which also includes a set function, and a gun that just simply feels like a hoss. I didn't vote in the poll because I haven't actually shot the other specific guns you mentioned, but I think you'd like a 550. Here's mine in .308.
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/550rightsideonbag_1.jpg
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/550leftsideonbag_1.jpg

The_Next_Generation
October 8, 2012, 09:32 AM
Its too bad they dont make a 550 in stainless! I really like the looks of those guns, but the Winchester and Sako arent too shabby either. I think I'm leaning towards the Winchester because of its ruggedness, but I'll keep reading as long as you guys keep posting!

By the way, keep the pics coming. Nothing like a little gun-porn to help motivate my decision-making process ;)

- TNG

Henry-Krinkle
October 8, 2012, 08:57 PM
.I think you would like a CZ 550 if you appreciate old-school style craftsmanship, blue steel and walnut, a great adjustable trigger which also includes a set function, and a gun that just simply feels like a hoss. I didn't vote in the poll because I haven't actually shot the other specific guns you mentioned, but I think you'd like a 550. Here's mine in .308.


Man I really love that mannlicher stock.. I'm looking to get the same one just in 9.3x62. Are you going to scope that rifle?

I6turbo
October 8, 2012, 09:12 PM
.

Man I really love that mannlicher stock.. I'm looking to get the same one just in 9.3x62. Are you going to scope that rifle?
Yes, if you like the full stocks, it's hard to pass them up in favor of a standard stock! I have three CZs and they're all full stocks. I do plan to scope this one, but not certain what I'll use. I am going to try a Redfield 3-9x40 that I have and see if that works well. If not, I'll look for something else. I was torn between a 6.5x55, .308, and even considered the 9.3x62 though it's a monster round for what I'll generally do with this gun (mostly plinking/informal target shooting). I got the 308 for a couple of reasons, mainly that I have a lot of 308 ammo with no other 308 in my possession, and that my sons (when they inherit the gun) should be able to find 308 ammo or reloading supplies long into the future without much difficulty. Those reasons, and that I found a great deal on this gun while keeping my eyes pealed for a 6.5 or a 308, I ended up with the 308 -- a great, capable, if mundane round. :)

SilentStalker
October 8, 2012, 09:18 PM
Sako is one of the finest rifles you can buy IMO, hands down.

wlewisiii
October 9, 2012, 12:18 AM
Toss up between the CZ & Winchester for me with the the CZ slightly winning. I've handled both and just liked the feel of the CZ better. Nothing objective but there isn't a stinker in that pile so if you got the money, that's all it ever comes down to. I like old school mausers and that's, basically, what the CZ is.

Halal Pork
October 9, 2012, 08:49 AM
Here's a photo.

MachIVshooter
October 9, 2012, 09:10 AM
I would like to keep things around $1000 at the most

Well, that pretty well takes Kimber off the list, even used. They occasionally turn up under a grand, but definitely not the Montana (a $2k rifle new).

I'd probably go for the CZ or Sako If I were you.

That said, were it my purchase, I'd be after an older 700. All of my hunting rifles are Remington (three 700 BDLs, a 700 VLSF and a 673)

I6turbo
October 9, 2012, 11:38 AM
Here's a photo.
Not to turn this into a CZ thread, but... Nice! :) What calibers, year models, and scopes are those? Are there any noticeable differences between the center gun and the two outer guns (anything that was changed at the same time they changed the checkering)?

WinThePennant
October 9, 2012, 12:01 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't vote for any of the above. I'm so glad I started building my ARs. The AR 15 platform provides more fun and usefulness than anything out there. If you don't want a 5.56, then get a .308. Practice in .22LR. Massively fun. Modular guns rock!

Halal Pork
October 9, 2012, 12:19 PM
Not to turn this into a CZ thread, but... Nice! :) What calibers, year models, and scopes are those? Are there any noticeable differences between the center gun and the two outer guns (anything that was changed at the same time they changed the checkering)?
Left to right: 6.5x55 with Swarovski 6x, 270 with Leupold FX-3 6x, 7x57 with Swarovski 3-9x. They're all basically the same rifle (CZ 550 American) but the middle one is marked "premium" and shows the older checker pattern. The only difference I can figure is the checkering and the stamp.

1858
October 9, 2012, 01:11 PM
Well, that pretty well takes Kimber off the list, even used. They occasionally turn up under a grand, but definitely not the Montana (a $2k rifle new).

I bought a NIB Montana a few months ago for $1,050 so they're in the OP's price range.

What does the Kimber bring to the table that the others do not?

I don't have any experience with CZ, Sako or Tikka but I bought a Winchester Extreme Weather when I bought the Montana and it's a good rifle but the Kimber is superior in every respect. There's more attention to detail on the Kimber with better fitting and better finishes on every part of the rifle. The Kimber safety is nicer both in how it functions and how it feels. Both have smooth actions, both have good triggers but the Montana is lighter and feels better in the hand. So far the Kimber has proven to be very accurate and I plan on adding another Montana in .308 Win and a Talkeetna in .375 H&H. I don't plan on adding any more Extreme Weather rifles although they're very good rifles.

Here's the Winchester Extreme Weather with the Kimber Montana.

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/montana/photos/kimber&winchester_02.jpg

I6turbo
October 9, 2012, 01:12 PM
Left to right: 6.5x55 with Swarovski 6x, 270 with Leupold FX-3 6x, 7x57 with Swarovski 3-9x. They're all basically the same rifle (CZ 550 American) but the middle one is marked "premium" and shows the older checker pattern. The only difference I can figure is the checkering and the stamp.
Wow. Nice optics to boot! I think they have now switched back to the checkering without the shadow lines (so the current ones look more like your middle gun). That's the deal on the FS, anyway. Nice set of siblings you have there in some great calibers. Do you have several other CZs?

Halal Pork
October 9, 2012, 01:53 PM
Wow. Nice optics to boot! I think they have now switched back to the checkering without the shadow lines (so the current ones look more like your middle gun). That's the deal on the FS, anyway. Nice set of siblings you have there in some great calibers. Do you have several other CZs?
I guess I have three other CZ rifles: a 527 Carbine in 7.62x39, a 22 "trainer" and a 550 Lux in 7x57. Honestly, I prefer the older checker pattern (as in the middle pic) but it's not a show stopper either way. They're all good rifles, as far as I can tell.

The_Next_Generation
October 9, 2012, 02:47 PM
1858, do you have any grouping info on those two guns? I'm really starting to lean towards the stainless-finish of the Kimber, Sako, and Winchester as it is more durable than the bluing on the CZ. Still..maybe the solution to my problem is to buy both a CZ and a Kimber :evil:

mainecoon
October 9, 2012, 07:43 PM
From what I've heard, the CZ 550 is meant to be used with iron sights, not a scope. Can you mount a scope on it and still get good eye alignment, given the way the stock curves?

MachIVshooter
October 9, 2012, 08:01 PM
I bought a NIB Montana a few months ago for $1,050 so they're in the OP's price range.

My bad, I was thinking of the Mountain Ascent when I said 2 grand.

It does seem there are quite a few Montanas out there between $1,040 and $1,200

1858
October 9, 2012, 08:50 PM
It does seem there are quite a few Montanas out there between $1,040 and $1,200


They're not easy to find though .... Kimber needs to increase their production schedule.


1858, do you have any grouping info on those two guns? I'm really starting to lean towards the stainless-finish of the Kimber, Sako, and Winchester as it is more durable than the bluing on the CZ. Still..maybe the solution to my problem is to buy both a CZ and a Kimber

I prefer stainless steel to blued but CZ makes excellent rifles so it's a tough choice unless as you say you buy a CZ and a stainless rifle. The Extreme Weather is a very good rifle too ... the Kimber is just better.

I started working up loads for the Kimber before it got really hot and it showed a lot of promise (see below). I only shot Remington green/yellow fodder through the Winchester and wasn't impressed. I plan to work up loads for both using 168gr and 180gr TSX bullets from Barnes now that it's cooler and deer season is coming up fast.

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/montana/range_targets/05_20_12/kimber_8400_300wsm_02.jpg

Cee Zee
October 9, 2012, 10:01 PM
If you aren't seriously considering a Savage you're making a mistake. They are the best bang for the buck and I defy anyone to show me a rifle that shoots better than my Savage 12 especially a right out of the box rifle. I would be very, very surprised to see one do better. It's all excellent quality too.

Just take a look at the results of the F Class and F/TR competitions over the past few years. Stock Savages are winning against custom built rifles. That's not something you're likely to ever see but there it is.

I have several Savages and they're all great shooters. I'm not saying a Sako isn't but the price is considerably higher and I can't see it shooting any better.

Just as an example I went to the range not to long ago and shot at a Shoot N See target someone had left hanging up at over 400 yards. I have a .223, Savage 12 I'm talking about here. I shot at that target 3 times. I put two shots dead center in the bull and I missed the other shot by about an inch.

No it won't shoot that way every time. But with the right ammo it will shoot close to that every time. 2" groups at 400 yards are the norm with that rifle.

1858
October 9, 2012, 10:10 PM
If you aren't seriously considering a Savage you're making a mistake.

I paid $700 for my Savage Weather Warrior and $850 for my Winchester Extreme Weather. That extra $150 gets you a rifle that is at least twice the quality of the Savage. You can't switch out the barrel as easily with the Winchester and the AccuTrigger is a quasi two-stage trigger which I prefer, but still, the Savage is crude by comparison. The AccuStock is a total POS whereas the stock on the Winchester is a really nice, high quality B&C which allows for a very positive cheekweld ... try that with the AccuStock. Also, with handloads the Winchester will shoot every bit as well as the Savage and if you pick the right chambering to start with the barrel swap is moot.

squarepants33889
October 9, 2012, 11:31 PM
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/squarepants33889/IMG_0065.jpg
Love my Tikka T3. Super smooth action, awesome trigger, positive locking magazine. The very light stock feels good, yet solid in my hands. I often wonder if its the light feel of this rifle that cause some to say it feels cheap.
If I had to criticize any point, it would be the magazine itself. It seems to operate fine, but is smacks of the aforementioned "cheapness".

I6turbo
October 9, 2012, 11:51 PM
From what I've heard, the CZ 550 is meant to be used with iron sights, not a scope. Can you mount a scope on it and still get good eye alignment, given the way the stock curves?
You've probably heard that about the FS and the Lux which have what is referred to as a hog-back stock. Other 550 models (like the Americans that Halal Pork posted) have regular straight stocks. I've fitted scopes to my three FS guns and they fit me fine, and I've seen a number of posts from others with the same no-problem experience. However, some people report that they can't plant their cheek as firmly on the stock as they'd like when scoped, so it appears to be an individual matter. To maximize the chances of a trouble-free fit it is important to use lower scope mounts with the hog-back stocks, but then that's generally a good practice anyway.

The_Next_Generation
October 10, 2012, 12:23 AM
Cee Zee, I understand that the Savages are very accurate rifles, and can hold more than their own in competition. Usually I want the absolute, most bang-for-buck. Normall, I would probably choose a Savage, Tikka, or R700. But this time around I'm looking for "the next level" in rifles. While the Savages are nice, I find they just don't feel the same Kimbers and CZs. The reason I'm deciding against Savage/Remmy/etc. is because I wan't something just a little nicer, a little more character. Maybe one-day I'll grab a Savage, but right now what I want is a quality rifle for the rest of my life. Its worth the extra couple hundred dollars to me.

Gtscotty
October 10, 2012, 06:52 AM
unfortunately I am not currently living in the PNW (studying at Georgia Tech).

Ah, a fellow Ramblin Wreck!

I have a Tikka T3 (and have had one other T3), while they are excellent $500 rifles, I think in your price range I would opt for a Winchester Extreme Weather. CZ makes nice rifles ( I love my switch-barrel 455), but every 550 I've held has been a bit on the porky side.

I think with the fluted stainless barrel, Bell and Carlson Stock and CRF the Extreme Weather would be the rifle to beat on your list. Also, the new FN made M70's have a great reputation for accuracy.

I've been keeping an eye out on M70 Extreme Weather deals, and have seen several good options turn up on Gunbroker. Since you are in Georgia, you might also check out "The Outdoors Trader", somebody is currently selling an extreme weather in .270 for $775.

Edit: Since you are looking for one "do-all" rifle, I think I would stick with stainless. I have had one of my Tikka's start to develop minor surface rust after a humid hunting weekend , albeit only where I bumped it against the stand and apparently removed a protective layer of grease. That said, I would be very surprised if I developed rust on any of my guns now that I've started using Eezox.

The_Next_Generation
October 10, 2012, 02:17 PM
Gtscotty, I agree, stainless is the best choice for the "do-all" kind of rifle. One thing I am confused about are the Georgia gun laws pertaining to sales. I called a gun store, and they told me that they could not sell me a long-gun because I am not a resident of the state. I tried looking online at the GA code, but their site is EXTREMELY difficult to navigate and I could not locate the code dealing with firearms. But, after checking the ATF law, it seems that state residency should not effect my ability to purchase long-guns.

What's the deal? Is there something I can reference/print out to show these guys?

Thanks in advance,
- TNG

snakeman
October 10, 2012, 02:29 PM
The kimber classic select is definitely the best looking of the bunch and would be my pick if money isn't a problem.

Savage99
October 10, 2012, 11:08 PM
The Kimber 84M Montana in .308 is a landmark rifle. I got one when they came out and it's a favorite hunting rifle of mine.

I have had M70's since 1957 and 99's since 1966. I have a complete battery of rifles in many calibers including a drilling, and match and schuetzen rifles.

The Kimber has control round feed, the best M70 type safety made and they are light with a state of the art stock. Made in the USA too!

Here are a few of my Kimbers. The .308 is the one in the middle with the Zeiss scope.

http://imageshack.us/a/img811/7905/dsc013142ll.jpg

Rob0321
October 11, 2012, 12:04 AM
I love my Kimber, here she is in .325 short mag (If I did it again, I'd have gone 25-06, .325 ammo has doubled in price since it came out)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Rupert999/DSC00109.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Rupert999/DSC00110.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Rupert999/DSC00112.jpg

Gtscotty
October 11, 2012, 02:21 AM
The Next Generation,

I'm not a lawyer or gun law expert, but I did read into this topic when considering a sale a couple months back. My understanding is that unless your state of residency expressly prohibits it, you should be able to buy a long gun from a dealer or individual in Georgia. This is not true for handguns, and some states (California) require rifles entering the state to process through a dealer in that state. Georgiacarry.org may have some info on the topic, and you should check your home states laws before making a purchase. Hope this helps.

Cee Zee
October 11, 2012, 07:05 AM
I paid $700 for my Savage Weather Warrior and $850 for my Winchester Extreme Weather. That extra $150 gets you a rifle that is at least twice the quality of the Savage.

Well I paid $950 for my Savage and you can't buy better quality anywhere. BTW that was the used price. It sells for around $1200 new. That buys a lot of rifle from a company known for giving consumers good deals.

From the HS-Precision stock (ok "maybe" a McMillan is better but not by that much and it costs a lot more) to the stainless barrel to the "target" AccuTrigger it is by far the better rifle compared to the rifles you mentioned. Do you really think a Bell And Carlson stock is better than an HS-Precision? I have a B&C on my Savage 110. They're nice but they aren't on the same level of quality as the HS-Precision. Not even close really. Don't a lot of people upgrade their B&C to a McMillan on that rifle? I know they do.

The quality of that Winchester is not in the same ballpark as the Savage I own. And I guarantee it won't shoot any better. You'll never find a stock rifle that shoots better than the 12 LRPV, single shot with the Target AccuTrigger and action. What I have is essentially the same rifle as the F Class and F/TR rifles except with a better stock and a shorter barrel which most people like because the balance is better.

You're seriously selling Savage short by comparing to that Winchester. And the same goes for the CZ. I have a CZ rifle. I have had all sorts of problems with it too from rust within the first 6 months I owned it (I bought it new) to a bolt that would stick so bad I like to never got it unstuck to wood that is way too soft for what it is and a set trigger that fails to function completely at times. So don't tell me that CZ's are better. I have one. It's nowhere near the quality of the upper level Savage rifles. BTW that set trigger can be a death trap too. I let my finger slip off of it when trying to set it the other day and it fired the gun when I did. Better be sure you keep those CZ's pointed down range when you go to set the trigger.

I'm not saying my CZ is a bad rifle. It isn't. But it has had a bunch of problems including rust for no reason whatsoever. I've solved most of the problems with the rifle by using a different protecting oil and working the burrs off the bolt but there's still that chance the set trigger will fire by accident. No gun should be that easy to have a ND. And the nicks in the walnut are going to be there forever. It should never have gotten those nicks. I have a 20 year old Savage walnut stock that doesn't have near the number of nicks in it. The wood is very clearly too soft.

So again don't tell me that CZ's are better than Savages. No sale here. And when I see a Winchester win competitions against custom built rifles then I'll believe they are as accurate as a Savage. But let's not forget that the new Winchester rifles are not the US made rifles they once were. Who makes that rifle really? FN? If that was an American made 70 I might be impressed. But the FN's are not the same.

Twice the quality of a Savage! Ha! It's exactly the opposite friend. Show me where any Winchester wins world championships using stock rifles shooting against custom built rifles. What exactly do you want in a rifle anyway? Mine has 3 action bolts, does yours? It's a single shot for more rigidity (which means more accuracy). Is yours? Yes I have a varmint rifle but Savage makes great hunting rifles in the same class. Oh yeah. I can adjust the trigger down to 6 oz. too. That's pretty low for a stock rifle.

Let's put it this way. I learned to shoot a quarter of a mile in about 10 trips to the range. I found the right ammo for my rifle, which is off the shelf Black Hills ammo, and I can now shoot 2" groups with that rifle. Again I'm actually pretty new to shooting that distance but the Savage makes it incredibly easy to do it.

I'll say it one more time. 2" at a quarter of a mile. If your rifle shoots better than that I'll believe it's "twice as good". But I've shot Winchester 70's at the range. They aren't nearly as accurate as my 12 LRPV. Of course maybe the guys who owned the rifles didn't know how to find the right load but then again maybe the rifles just aren't as accurate. I tend to look at the competition results and I've never seen any other stock rifle beat custom rifles consistently. That's why I bought a Savage in the first place and believe me I have not been disappointed.

1858
October 11, 2012, 10:47 AM
Cee Zee,
Take a look at the OP's list of rifles that he's considering. Do you see an 11lb single shot rifle in the list? The Savage Weather Warrior is the closest thing to a Winchester Extreme Weather so it's the obvious rifle to compare, and I have both. The Weather Warrior is a $700 rifle and 99% of that cost is in the action and barrel.

BoilerUP
October 11, 2012, 11:07 AM
"Quarter of a mile" sounds a lot better than 440 yards. That said, 2" groups at that range is handily sub-half MOA which is fantastic from a factory rifle.

I gotta ask though...how many shots in those groups?

Andrew Leigh
October 11, 2012, 01:59 PM
The Sako is without doubt the best finished of the lot and in my opinion the best rifle. The Tikka's are to Sako what the Redfields are to Leupolds. Both come from the same stable but the one is a lesser quality that the other.

I am 6'2" and 260lbs so the Tikka's feel like a boy's rifle to me, too light and too little substance, would want one for the wife. With the heavier calibre's recoil could be problem.

I have two CZ550's, one in 6.5X55mm and the other in 30-06. The former is 0.5MOA and the latter is 0.75MOA, both have been glass bedded. They have a controlled feed which is not required, they are heavy and not in the same league as the Sako. They appeal to different markets, in this country the Sako's are near dammit twice the price hence my choice on the CZ's.

If you can't get the CZ550 American then the cheek weld will be poor with the European CZ550, use with a scope will need the stock building up with aftermarket devices. I have two such devices and life is good. The CZ is a true workhorse so if you will be shooting lots she would be a good choice.

My experience on the others is non existant so I will not comment.

the count
October 11, 2012, 02:33 PM
:confused: Why you would put one of the all-time favorite rifle, the Rem700, into a 'other' category baffles me....

Cee Zee
October 11, 2012, 02:40 PM
I gotta ask though...how many shots in those groups?

5 shots. Actually I've put more shots than that into targets that size. The place I shoot isn't really an easy place to set up targets though. I have shot some but mostly I have shot small objects, like pieces of clays, in groups. But I have shot targets painted on thin rocks where the rock chips away where I hit it. I was able to knock the entire 4" target away in about 7 shots. I shot 3 shots at a Shoot N See target the last time I was there. I put two rounds dead center and missed about an inch on the third round.

The target area is about half way up a high wall leftover from a strip mine so just setting up any kind of a target is a real challenge. And just getting out to the spot to start climbing the hill, hoping not to fall back down the hill and break my neck, is not exactly easy. But I have shot there often and I have witnesses. When you can nail the leftover pieces of clays that someone else busted before you know you're getting good accuracy.

But the main reason I list 2" as the group size is that on separate occasions I have set up chalk targets on the side of that hill that are exactly 2" in diameter. They make a nice puffy cloud of dust when you hit one. I've hit as many as 7 in a row of those chalk targets.

BTW 1858 your opinion on what is closest to what the OP wants doesn't impress me a lot. And Savage certainly makes other rifles. And of course the great thing about Savage rifles is that you can build them the way you want them similar to how things work with a Ruger 10/22. You can certainly build a lighter rifle with the target action and trigger and whatever barrel you choose. Savage will build those rifles for you and you can build them yourself. I saw no requirement about the rifle being similar to a weather warrior.

Surely you realize that the CZ 550 is not an extreme weather type rifle. I would suggest you take a look at the 14/114 series rifles. They are a higher grade of rifle than the 11/111 series rifles that make up the Savage severe weather rifles. And if you have any reason to doubt that these rifles are every bit as accurate as mine then I would suggest looking at the quarterly centerfire competitions held on this board. I believe a guy there wins quite often with a Savage and it isn't a varmint model. But there again I didn't see any restrictions on weight in the OP's post. Maybe you should try thinking for yourself and let others do the same.

Look you said Winchesters were double the quality of Savages. I think that's preposterous. That's as far as I'm going with this. I haven't seen any attempt by you to even recognize that not all Savages are created equal or that not all Winchesters are better than all Savages. Let the OP make up his mind what features he wants or doesn't want. My guess is he knows what he wants more than you do. I'm still waiting for a response to my point about my Savage having a far better stock than your Winchester and the whole winning competitions against custom built rifles thing, etc. etc.. If you are just going to ignore the points I make I believe that leaves me talking to a brick wall and that's pretty much a useless thing to do. So I won't address any more of your posts until you address my points. And I'll let the OP tell us what he wants. He said he wanted a better rifle than the usual run of the mill rifle or something to that effect. If he finds ANY stock rifle that exceeds the ability of the Savages to hit their targets then good for him. I haven't found any rifles like that.

You know despite what you probably think I don't have a thing against Winchester products. I've used them for decades in fact. Their name was top notch for many years. But now that honor goes to Savage IMO. And I certainly like CZ products. I have one myself and I shoot it very often. And the rifle I would most like to get on that list is a Sako. But a top notch Savage is generally in the same league as Sako but for less money.

The_Next_Generation
October 11, 2012, 02:55 PM
the count: Because in my recent handling of several R700s alongside the other options on my list, there was a clear (and highly unfortunate, Remington was once a legendary manufacturer) shortcoming in quality on behalf of Remington.

Cee Zee: I understand that Savage rifles are very accurate, I do not doubt that for a second. However, the 14/114 rifle while accurate and of good quality, does not have the same appeal to me that the Kimber or CZ rifles have. To me, Savages are extremely utilitarian. They get the job done very well, but when it comes down to how they feel in your hands and against your shoulder, the other rifles surge ahead. Also, the MSRP of the 14/114 rifle is $995.

I'm looking for more than just accuracy.

Cee Zee
October 11, 2012, 03:38 PM
Well I'm trying to tell you that a top quality Savage has those things. And they generally do it for less money than other companies. I've handled Sako's and Tikkas and a ton of Winchesters and I've handled a lot of newer Savages. I believe you are judging Savage by facts that were true a decade ago but a lot has changed at Savage in that time period.

The 12 LRPV I own has one of the best stocks available, it has a 3 action screw design giving it far more strength and rigidity and it has an oversize bolt and a push feed design that works superbly. If you haven't seen those Savages you're missing out IMO. I have an older Savage and I would agree that it does seem utilitarian compared to other rifles. But that rifle is 20 years old. The new Savages are a far different creation.

Good luck finding what you're looking for. I'd still suggest that you at least look at a top notch Savage. I think you'll be surprised at the quality. It certainly isn't half the quality of a Winchester. That thinking is two decades out of date. I know you didn't say that. I'm just making the point.

1858
October 11, 2012, 04:03 PM
Look you said Winchesters were double the quality of Savages.

I was comparing my Savage Weather Warrior to my Winchester Extreme Weather and clearly wasn't making a statement about all Savages compared to all Winchesters. If you put a Kimber Montana, a Winchester Extreme Weather and a Savage Weather Warrior on a table and ask 100 people to choose their favorite based on fit, finish, feel, overall appearance and overall quality I doubt you'll have many that choose the Savage.

Savage rifles have some very desirable features but they are not refined by any stretch of the imagination. For some this isn't important, for others it is.

the count
October 11, 2012, 04:21 PM
the count: Because in my recent handling of several R700s alongside the other options on my list, there was a clear (and highly unfortunate, Remington was once a legendary manufacturer) shortcoming in quality on behalf of Remington.


I am not a Remington fan boy...just stating the facts, and my 700 Tactical with my best hand loads, shooting off the lands, and other than a Timney trigger factory configuration, consistently achieves 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with the best 3 shot groups being around .35". Something to think about.

You say "I'm looking for more than just accuracy." Which would be what? Less accuracy? That statement somehow does not compute.

The_Next_Generation
October 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
the count: What I mean is that there are plenty of accurate rifles on the market today. The R700, Tikka T3, Savage 12xxx, blah blah blah. However, there are only a handful of factory rifles that offer the old-world quality, durability, and charm that I am looking for.

There is just something about a well-built, well-finished gun that feels and looks fantastic. Sure, there are plenty of guns our there that shoot great, but I want a gun with some character and uniqueness. This is what I mean about wanting more than accuracy.

Does anybody else agree with me? Many of today's "tack-drivers" are downright bland IMHO...

Thanks again everybody for the input, I really enjoy the different viewpoints!
- TNG

1858
October 11, 2012, 05:20 PM
There is just something about a well-built, well-finished gun that feels and looks fantastic. Sure, there are plenty of guns our there that shoot great, but I want a gun with some character and uniqueness. This is what I mean about wanting more than accuracy.

That's why I rate the Kimber Montana so highly. It's simply built right with clean lines, superb fit/finish, an excellent trigger and safety, a really nice feeling stock and no more steel than is needed. On top of all that it's a great shooting rifle. Shooting sub moa groups with heavy rifles and powerful optics isn't all that hard to do. Shooting sub moa groups with rifles that weigh 6lb and low power optics is considerably more difficult, particularly when the rifle is chambered for cartridges that use high mass, high energy bullets.

Halal Pork
October 12, 2012, 12:26 PM
the count: What I mean is that there are plenty of accurate rifles on the market today. The R700, Tikka T3, Savage 12xxx, blah blah blah. However, there are only a handful of factory rifles that offer the old-world quality, durability, and charm that I am looking for.

There is just something about a well-built, well-finished gun that feels and looks fantastic. Sure, there are plenty of guns our there that shoot great, but I want a gun with some character and uniqueness. This is what I mean about wanting more than accuracy.

Does anybody else agree with me? Many of today's "tack-drivers" are downright bland IMHO...

Thanks again everybody for the input, I really enjoy the different viewpoints!
- TNG
I'm with you. I have an idea of what a classic rifle is (for me) and that's what I like. I'm not going to be invited to Camp Perry or the next Olympics for my shooting prowess. I like "old man" rifles and optics. If I ever start consistently out-shooting a favorite rifle, I'll consider getting it re-barreled, but I'm unlikely to change completely my preferences in style.

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