Let's Make These C&R Eligible


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geolemer
October 7, 2012, 01:44 PM
I was thinking, we should make a list and submit it to the ATF, requesting A few select firearms be made C&R. It has been done before and has worked. I would Start the list with a Polish P-83.To me these seem more like a "conversation piece". I doubt we will read in the paper about a crazed man with a pair of P-83's. Also I would suggest the Croatian PHP VM 17 And 9 pistols. I don't see the harm in trying, but if it's a bad idea I'm sure you'll let me know.

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wojownik
October 7, 2012, 02:16 PM
Quoting from To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:


Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.


So, a starting point would be to explain why the P-83 Wanad pistol has historical interest (that is, define why they may be "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons").

The P-83 isn't 50 years old yet. Can you get a curator to write to the ATF explaining why it may be of museum interest? And they are not really novel, rare or bizarre (though one could maybe make a weak argument that they are associated with the Cold War, but a hundred other firearms fall under that argument too, so it might be a challenge grounding an argument that a substantial part of the P-83s monetary value lay in it's association with a historical period or figure).

Not being argumentative ... bureaucracies follow rules and regulations ... to make an argument, you'd need to figure out how the firearm clearly and unambiguously fits any of those criteria. (Bureaucracies also can have their own logic - what is on the C&R list is an interesting read).

harmon rabb
October 7, 2012, 02:31 PM
Quoting from To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:


Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.


So, a starting point would be to explain why the P-83 Wanad pistol has historical interest (that is, define why they may be "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons").

The P-83 isn't 50 years old yet. Can you get a curator to write to the ATF explaining why it may be of museum interest? And they are not really novel, rare or bizarre (though one could maybe make a weak argument that they are associated with the Cold War, but a hundred other firearms fall under that argument too, so it might be a challenge grounding an argument that a substantial part of the P-83s monetary value lay in it's association with a historical period or figure).

Not being argumentative ... bureaucracies follow rules and regulations ... to make an argument, you'd need to figure out how the firearm clearly and unambiguously fits any of those criteria. (Bureaucracies also can have their own logic - what is on the C&R list is an interesting read).

Hey they got the Cz82 in there somehow.

SaxonPig
October 7, 2012, 02:42 PM
This revolver was done up as a presentation piece and derives nearly all of its value from being novel. I submitted it for inclusion on the C&R list and it was rejected. Good luck. If the ATF had its way there be no C&R qualified guns. Note how they look for any excuse to exclude guns.


http://www.fototime.com/B787D1D0E475793/standard.jpg

deadin
October 7, 2012, 02:44 PM
The vz. 82 was added to the US government's "Curio and Relic" list with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) in February 2007, after an individual wrote a letter to the ATF attaching a letter from a federal museum curator who stated that the vz. 82 had "museum interest" as a curio and relic.[1]

Find that Federal Museum Curator!!! :neener:

Saakee
October 7, 2012, 02:52 PM
The Croatian PHPs seem like they'd have some museum interest since they were created during/for the Croatian struggle for independence, right?

AethelstanAegen
October 7, 2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
The vz. 82 was added to the US government's "Curio and Relic" list with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) in February 2007, after an individual wrote a letter to the ATF attaching a letter from a federal museum curator who stated that the vz. 82 had "museum interest" as a curio and relic.[1]
Find that Federal Museum Curator!!!

It helps that the CZ 82 was used by a military of a country that no longer exists (ie Czechoslovakia). This is similar to many of the Yugoslavian arms (for example my C&R M57 Tokarev is only 48 years old).

gfanikf
October 8, 2012, 07:17 AM
Find that Federal Museum Curator!!! :neener:
Seriously we need to do a Kickstarter form bribi....educational sessions with these people to get them to write letters.

IIRC it was the head of the West Point Military Museum.

BSA1
October 8, 2012, 08:45 AM
I would start the list with a Polish P-83.

What are the differences between the CZ82 and CZ83?

This revolver was done up as a presentation piece and derives nearly all of its value from being novel. I submitted it for inclusion on the C&R list and it was rejected. Good luck. If the ATF had its way there be no C&R qualified guns. Note how they look for any excuse to exclude guns.

What am I missing here? Your picture is of an engraved S&W Model 10 that is 43 years old and apparently fully functional. The value of the engraving is debatable. As such it is only a fancy looking shooter.

wojownik
October 8, 2012, 10:07 AM
The Czech CZ82 was a sidearm issued by a now non-existent country (Czechoslovakia dissolved into the separate Czech and Slovak nations)

The CZ83 is a commercial firearm that is still produced in the current Czech Republic.

The P83 Wanad was a standard issue firearm from the People's Republic of Poland and its current democratic successor. The Polish nation remained, though governments changed.

So for the CZ 82 the argument seems to be that it was from a Czechoslovak nation ceased to be entirely.

gfanikf
October 8, 2012, 10:27 AM
The Czech CZ82 was a sidearm issued by a now non-existent country (Czechoslovakia dissolved into the separate Czech and Slovak nations)

The CZ83 Is a commercial firearm that was produced also in the current Czech Republic.

The P83 Wanad was a standard issue firearmfrom the People's Republic of Poland and its current democratic successor. The Polish nation remained, though governments changed.

So for the CZ 82 the argument seems to be that it was from a Czechoslovak nation ceased to be entirely.
So basically we need to destroy some countries....sigh...Monday's are never easy.

Trebor
October 9, 2012, 12:57 PM
I remember someone had a proposal to add all "pinned and recessed" Smith and Wesson revolvers to the C&R list. I never heard anymore about it and don't know if he ever actually submitted it.

SaxonPig
October 9, 2012, 01:18 PM
BSA1- I am missing what you are missing. A functional gun can't be C&R? What?

The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

Have a nice day.

ErikO
October 9, 2012, 01:57 PM
Aren't some early M-16's eligeable now? lol

gfanikf
October 9, 2012, 02:29 PM
Aren't some early M-16's eligeable now? lol
Yes, MGs get added all the time to the list by date or by novelty.

It means you still have to do the normal legwork, but you can get your MG mailed to your with no need for an SOT.

wojownik
October 9, 2012, 05:21 PM
BSA1- I am missing what you are missing. A functional gun can't be C&R? What?

The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

Have a nice day.

I think the issue is that the C&R status applies to the overall model, not a specific singular firearm. Yes, while that Model 10 may be unique and have its "premium" value derived from its uniqueness, all its other non-engraved Model 10 bretheren do not. So, as a class, the Model 10s do not fit into the C&R list (until they hit 50 years old). Offhand, I recall that the pre-Model 10s are C&R.

Nice Model 10, BTW... :D

dogtown tom
October 9, 2012, 05:59 PM
wojownik Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig
BSA1- I am missing what you are missing. A functional gun can't be C&R? What?

The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

Have a nice day.
I think the issue is that the C&R status applies to the overall model, not a specific singular firearm. Yes, while that Model 10 may be unique and have its "premium" value derived from its uniqueness, all its other non-engraved Model 10 bretheren do not. So, as a class, the Model 10s do not fit into the C&R list (until they hit 50 years old). Offhand, I recall that the pre-Model 10s are C&R.
There are numerous examples of singular firearms in the ATF curio list......many listed by their serial number. If SaxonPig's Model 10 had been owned by Ronald Reagan, AND he has provenance then it might qualify as a "curio". Although beautiful, unless the engraving was done by Leo da Vinci there is little liklihood that his Model 10 would be classified any differently than any other engraved Model 10. Engraved guns are a world to themselves, the most prized being factory engraved, the least (even if beautiful) are those done by Leo da Anonymous.

BSA1
October 9, 2012, 10:43 PM
The regs say a gun that derives most of its value from being novel may qualify as C&R. That Model 10 is pretty unique and nearly all of its value (even if YOU don't think it's much value) is derived from its uniqueness. The ATF didn't see it that way. But at least they didn't insult the piece.

I'm sorry I hit a raw nerve with you about your gun.

fatcat4620
October 10, 2012, 08:48 AM
This revolver was done up as a presentation piece and derives nearly all of its value from being novel. I submitted it for inclusion on the C&R list and it was rejected. Good luck. If the ATF had its way there be no C&R qualified guns. Note how they look for any excuse to exclude guns.


http://www.fototime.com/B787D1D0E475793/standard.jpg
How much value do you think it adds? I don't see more than 50 bucks extra. Was it engraved by some now dead world master?

CZguy
October 10, 2012, 11:00 AM
How much value do you think it adds? I don't see more than 50 bucks extra. Was it engraved by some now dead world master?

Did that need to be said? :scrutiny:

You're entitled to you opinion, but I can't see any reason for saying that, other than to insult the owner.

fatcat4620
October 10, 2012, 11:56 AM
Did that need to be said? :scrutiny:

You're entitled to you opinion, but I can't see any reason for saying that, other than to insult the owner.
His argument is that his gun should have C&R status because the majority of his guns value was derived from its uniqueness. Truth hurts sometimes.

CZguy
October 10, 2012, 12:45 PM
His argument is that his gun should have C&R status because the majority of his guns value was derived from its uniqueness. Truth hurts sometimes.

Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.

fatcat4620
October 10, 2012, 01:30 PM
He seemed to not understand why the ATF would not make his gun C&R. I expanded on that and how it may not have been that the ATF does not want to make any guns C&R. Its like a parent getting mad at the teacher because their kid did not get straight As.

happygeek
October 10, 2012, 11:53 PM
Personally I don't see any logical reason why all Title I firearms shouldn't be considered C&Rs, but then that'd put at least one guy at the ATF out of a job. Ditto if all Title I firearms were considered sporting.

Shadow 7D
October 11, 2012, 05:23 AM
I Enjoy reading the single examples listed on the C&R list, and then followed by "presented to senator XXX on XXXX)

BSA1
October 11, 2012, 08:29 AM
Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.

What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount..

wojownik
October 11, 2012, 10:16 AM
It's a gorgeous snubby, which might indeed derive a premium value from the custom work, but that in and of itself does not seem to meet the ATF's threshold of being novel, rare or bizarre. It's artistic, but the ATF apparently did not see it as novel, rare or bizarre, or associated with a historical figure.

Why does the poster have to justify why he thinks why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is "so important"? Frankly that's his business, and not unreasonable at least to inquire whether it could have been included in the C&R list. Maybe he just thought it would be neat. Doesn't matter. He asked, and the ATF declined.

fatcat4620
October 11, 2012, 01:21 PM
Which was precisely my point. You are more than entitled to your opinion. but what did you accomplish by posting that?

I'm suggesting that you made a guy feel bad about a gun that he obviously likes. I just don't see the value in that.

What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount..
Ok, I'm sorry. Lets all hug and sing songs about love and sharing around the campfire.

CZguy
October 11, 2012, 01:57 PM
Ok, I'm sorry. Lets all hug and sing songs about love and sharing around the campfire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0kwuO0_qc :D

happygeek
October 11, 2012, 03:50 PM
What the O.P. has failed to state is why having the gun reclassified as a C&R is so important. Transferring a gun through a FFL dealer is not difficult and only costs a small amount.


Maybe a small amount compared to a $1,000 Colt AR, but $30 extra on a $200 CZ82 is a considerable mark up, and for what? What logical reason is there that I can't have a CZ83, or any other Title I firearm, shipped directly to me on a 03 FFL? Because it'd make it harder for the police to trace since the paper trail would go straight to me from the distributor?

I'm a little lost as to why I should be required to pay a 01 FFL to write it in his bound book instead of just writing it in my bound book. It's not that $30, or whatever the going transfer rate is in your local, is an ungodly amount of money, it's more the waste of it.

dogtown tom
October 11, 2012, 05:56 PM
happygeek What logical reason is there that I can't have a CZ83, or any other Title I firearm, shipped directly to me on a 03 FFL? Because it'd make it harder for the police to trace since the paper trail would go straight to me from the distributor?
Because your 03FFL is for COLLECTING curios and relics.......not just any firearm.

I regularly receive C&R eligible handguns for quite a few customers who hold 03FFL's......it saves them $$$$ for me to receive a USPS mailed handgin vs a handgun shipped Overnight FedEx.

happygeek
October 11, 2012, 06:30 PM
Why shouldn't it be good for any Title I firearm? People collect all sorts of guns, not just what the all knowing ATF thinks is collectable. I still don't see the logic.

While we're on that topic, where's the logic in requiring air shipment for handguns?

Saakee
October 11, 2012, 06:38 PM
lessen theft potential by those sticky fingered employees.

dogtown tom
October 11, 2012, 07:12 PM
happygeek Why shouldn't it be good for any Title I firearm? People collect all sorts of guns, not just what the all knowing ATF thinks is collectable. I still don't see the logic.
Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.


While we're on that topic, where's the logic in requiring air shipment for handguns?
No Federal law requires handguns to go air.

happygeek
October 11, 2012, 07:48 PM
Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.


Which still doesn't make any logical sense. People collect all sorts of firearms, not just ones the ATF thinks are collectable. I still don't see any good reason why 03 FFL holders shouldn't be allowed to have any Title I firearm shipped directly to them. Throwing an extra step in there, i.e. shipping it to someone else so he can write it in his bound book, rather than just writing it in my bound book makes no sense to me. From a post crime let's trace the serial # perspective it still doesn't make sense.


No Federal law requires handguns to go air.


Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?

Rail Driver
October 11, 2012, 07:51 PM
Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?

Because the CARRIERS POLICIES require overnight shipment for handguns. Handguns are easily concealed, and thus easily stolen by employees (I know for a fact that UPS does NOT require background checks for individuals working in their ground shipping depots). It's a liability issue, not a legal issue.

dogtown tom
October 11, 2012, 08:23 PM
happygeek Quote:
Because ATF created the 03FFL specifically for those that collect curios and relics.......the criteria intentionally excluded firearms newer than fifty years old.

Which still doesn't make any logical sense. People collect all sorts of firearms, not just ones the ATF thinks are collectable.
It doesn't have to make sense.....it's government regulation.:D

"Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

Don't like the fact that Glocks aren't C&R?...........write your Congressman.





Then why do the distributors insist on shipping handguns via 2 day air when I order them but rifles ship via ground?
Because USPS regulations only allow dealers and manufacturers to mail or receive by mail, firearms other than rifles or shotguns. Ordinary mortals have to ship handguns via common carrier and the carrier sets its own policies. As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

Rail Driver
October 11, 2012, 08:26 PM
As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

Are you an 03FFL? I believe this statement is incorrect - I will have to research it to confirm, but I'm about 80% certain.

"regular mortals" CAN *RECEIVE* handguns via USPS in certain instances such as when they are shipped by the manufacturer as in warranty work, so that part of the statement is at least partly incorrect.

happygeek
October 11, 2012, 08:27 PM
It doesn't have to make sense.....it's government regulation.


Sadly true. I'll put that in my next letter to my Senator, as the current system makes less than no sense.

Thanks for the clarification on UPS/Fed Ex shipping policies.

dogtown tom
October 11, 2012, 09:30 PM
Rail Driver Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
As 03FFL's are not licensed dealers, they cannot legally receive handguns via USPS. Thats why the distributor who ships you a C&R handgun uses UPS or FedEx.

Are you an 03FFL? I believe this statement is incorrect - I will have to research it to confirm, but I'm about 80% certain.
I hold an 01FFL (Dealer) but several years ago I had my C&R.

Stay with me 'cause USPS regs are more of a maze than ATF regs could ever hope to be. I'll highlight in red the good stuff.

Regs regarding the mailing of firearmsare found at this link:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527

12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.


So.........the parties in 12.1.3? Licensed dealers, manufacturers, importers and authorized agents of federal and state governments can ship handguns to military and police officers for official duties. 12.1.5 covers shipments between dealers, manufacturers and importers to each other.


So.....the handguns that collectors can mail under 12.1.h? Antique firearms.
"12.1.h (in part) Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof........."




"regular mortals" CAN *RECEIVE* handguns via USPS in certain instances such as when they are shipped by the manufacturer as in warranty work, so that part of the statement is at least partly incorrect.
Nope. The manufacturer CAN return a repaired or replaced firearm via common carrier to the owner, but as 12.1.5 & 12.1.6 says they can only MAIL to other dealers, manufacturers or importers.
12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers
A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer or importer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 12.1.2d, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers or importers of firearms.

SaxonPig
October 11, 2012, 09:38 PM
Good Lord.

1. I didn't expect the ATF to approve my request. I did it for fun. I was pretty sure it would be denied, but I thought "What the Hell?" I was not crushed by the rejection. As noted many individual guns are listed.

2. All things are subjective. Some people don't like engraved guns. Some people don't like my engraved guns specifically. I don't give a rat's ass. I don't need their approval for anything I do or own. But the $50 comment was fairly offensive. But, some people are like that. I have suffered worse boors.

This revolver was engraved and fitted with ivory stocks by my wife as a 50th birthday present to me. I believe the value is much more than $50 over a standard Model 10 and in reality the monetary value is just as irrelevant to me as are the opinions of oafs. I like it... and that's all that matters.


http://www.fototime.com/EB89C32F7D30AAA/standard.jpg

SaxonPig
October 11, 2012, 09:42 PM
PS: Anyone who dislikes my engraved S&W will probably also show disdain for my engraved Colt. The engraving was a present from my mother who died five days later. This is another one with value that transcends mere money.


http://www.fototime.com/2F5585341B1996A/standard.jpg

fatcat4620
October 11, 2012, 09:55 PM
Good Lord.

1. I didn't expect the ATF to approve my request. I did it for fun. I was pretty sure it would be denied, but I thought "What the Hell?" I was not crushed by the rejection. As noted many individual guns are listed.

2. All things are subjective. Some people don't like engraved guns. Some people don't like my engraved guns specifically. I don't give a rat's ass. I don't need their approval for anything I do or own. But the $50 comment was fairly offensive. But, some people are like that. I have suffered worse boors.

This revolver was engraved and fitted with ivory stocks by my wife as a 50th birthday present to me. I believe the value is much more than $50 over a standard Model 10 and in reality the monetary value is just as irrelevant to me as are the opinions of oafs. I like it... and that's all that matters.


http://www.fototime.com/EB89C32F7D30AAA/standard.jpg
Good wife you got there.

Rail Driver
October 12, 2012, 12:15 AM
Stay with me 'cause USPS regs are more of a maze than ATF regs could ever hope to be. I'll highlight in red the good stuff.

Regs regarding the mailing of firearmsare found at this link:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527

Nope. The manufacturer CAN return a repaired or replaced firearm via common carrier to the owner, but as 12.1.5 & 12.1.6 says they can only MAIL to other dealers, manufacturers or importers.

No kidding. Well, when I'm wrong and it's proven, I'm not too proud to admit it.

To be fair, though, I never dug through the postal regulations, only the ATF regulations - Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations either, though, because (and this is the primary reason I thought that it was legal) both have returned handguns (a Rossi .357 and a Kel-Tec P11) directly to me via U.S. Postal mail. I guess manufacturers are just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us.

SaxonPig
October 12, 2012, 08:28 AM
Yes, ONLY FFL dealers and manufacturers can send pistols via US Mail. This allows Fed-Ex and UPS to gouge us with $100 charges to ship a handgun.

dogtown tom
October 12, 2012, 08:49 AM
Rail Driver ....Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations....

KelTec is the worst at advising customers to violate USPS regs or common carrier tariffs.....they regularly tell customers to label the box "machine parts" or just drop it in the mail.

I think they know the regulations.

BSA1
October 12, 2012, 09:01 AM
No kidding. Well, when I'm wrong and it's proven, I'm not too proud to admit it.

To be fair, though, I never dug through the postal regulations, only the ATF regulations - Apparently Rossi and Kel-Tec have never studied the postal regulations either, though, because (and this is the primary reason I thought that it was legal) both have returned handguns (a Rossi .357 and a Kel-Tec P11) directly to me via U.S. Postal mail. I guess manufacturers are just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us.


Just two weeks ago I had a S&W Customer Service Representative tell me I could return a revolver to them for repair via USPS. So it not just Rossi and Kel-Tec that don't know the law.

I did send the gun to them through USPS. Only I went through a FFL dealer and because it was cheaper than UPS and Fed-Ex.

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