Which of these three in 308 for a post disaster rifle?


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C0untZer0
October 7, 2012, 01:50 PM
Limited to 7.62x51 NATO. And a semi-auto rifle – no bolt action. I carried, qualified with, and cleaned the M16 for 11 years, and I never liked it, so I’m not looking for an AR chambered in 7.62 I know there are other long range cartridges like the 338 Lapua, but I want to stick with 7.62 NATO. If someone wanted a rifle in this caliber to potentially engage targets out to 800 - 900 meters in a post disaster situation, which would be your choice:

Springfield Armory M21 tactical
FN FNAR w/20" barrel
Browning Safari in .308

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Inebriated
October 7, 2012, 01:58 PM
I'd go with a Saiga .308 or FNAR, but that's just me.

Would lean more towards the FNAR if long range was a concern.

56hawk
October 7, 2012, 02:38 PM
The FN FAL would be a good choice. They have heavy barrel versions that should be accurate enough.

C0untZer0
October 7, 2012, 03:02 PM
Yes - long range is a concern.

The Saiga IMO is a little bit light and shaky / rattlely and doesn't have what I would consider a good trigger. I think even with modifying, it would be a challenge to pick off targets at 900 meters with a Saiga.

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 03:16 PM
The FN FAL would be a good choice. They have heavy barrel versions that should be accurate enough.

I own a few FALs, two of them Israeli Heavy Barrels, and I have to respectfully disagree that they meet the accuracy requirement.

Inside of 600M the FAL is probably the best rifle you can reach for but trying to hit a target with certainty out to 900M with it is asking a bit too much of the rifle.
I will allow that there are exceptions but 2MOA is a good shooting FAL, many are not able to achieve that much accuracy...

Having said all that; I wouldn't trade my FALs for any other rifle available.

If it weren't for the 800-900M requirement, I think a FAL would suite the OP just fine.

stubbicatt
October 7, 2012, 03:23 PM
900 meters is a very long distance. Your handicap even with a great rifle is finding suitable ammunition. I guess the question is more of, what is your target at 900 meters? A coyote? A prairie dog? A house?

Perhaps stalk a little bit closer to be more assured of a positive end result.

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 03:26 PM
Just to throw this little nugget out there; would you be OK with 600M as point target and 800-900M area target accuracy?

That's how I look at my "Poor Man's M240B".

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/desertford/230.jpg

Luger_carbine
October 7, 2012, 03:29 PM
Left out a really excellent HK rifle.

Here is an article on "20 Versatile Semi-Automatice Rifles"

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting?photo=19#node-1001350874

Two of the rifles you have listed are listed in the article. The M1A & variants was left out.

The Safari is a big rifle designed for bigger bullets than the 308, but IMO it is a super accurate rifle and I do think it can take game or hit targets out to 900 meters.

Of the three you have listed here, only two are capable of decent accuracy out to 900 meters - the Safari and the M21 - which as I'm sure you know, is a sniper rifle.

snakeman
October 7, 2012, 03:35 PM
I would opt for the fnar. It's sleek, refined, accurate and easily accepts optics with a close optic:bore ratio.

the count
October 7, 2012, 03:37 PM
The listed choices are not representative of common 308 semi autos.

fireside44
October 7, 2012, 04:44 PM
Since you don't have the FAL as a selection I would go with the Springfield Armory. You said "post disaster" which to me means a military type 7.62/308 that is easy to field strip and maintain. The FNAR does not meet that standard by any means.

Robert
October 7, 2012, 05:31 PM
If we want to talk about long range 308 rifles that is fine but let's leave the fantasy SHTF stuff out of it.

stsimons
October 7, 2012, 06:05 PM
800-1000 meters is a long way out. No bolt action? I know that is how you are qualifying this topic, but why? I would certainly WANT a bolt action over 600M. Its hard enough (for most) to hit a 24 inch gong at 600M from a solid rest with a 7.62 (or .308) at 600m.

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 06:22 PM
If we want to talk about long range 308 rifles that is fine but let's leave the fantasy SHTF stuff out of it.

I thought we had done a pretty good job of doing that.

What's got your dander up?

Girodin
October 7, 2012, 06:25 PM
I'd go with a Saiga .308 or FNAR, but that's just me.

For shooting to 900 meters? I own a S308 and I think it is a very good gun (after being modified). However, it would not be my go to for 900 meters.

The FN FAL would be a good choice. They have heavy barrel versions that should be accurate enough.

Same as above FAL's tend to be 2 MOA or worse guns. That doesn't really cut it for 900 meter shooting

I'm not sure how 900 meter shooting applies to post disaster situations. However if I wanted a semi auto for that distance, an AR-10 rifles were off the table, I would probably lean towards the FN AR with a 20" barrel. They tend to be legit sub MOA guns. The FNAR is just a modified BAR so the Safari might not be a bad choice either and the 22" barrel would tend to offer more a bit more velocity, velocity being a real advantage at 900 meters.

A SCAR has the accuracy and is a very versatile gun and a more rugged one than the BAR/ FNAR, more of a battle rifle. With a longer barrel it would be a good choice. A skilled shooter could make hits out to 1000 meters, however for a gun just for that purpose I would want a longer barrel. If there is ever product support for the Scar that includes barrels to take advantage of the quick change barrels I would like to own one with a short barrel and a 24" or so match barrel (preferably in 260 Rem).

I'd pick something you like and will want to shoot a lot. Shooting even COM sized targets at 800-900 meters is usually much more difficult for the shooter than the gun.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:25 PM
Yes - long range is a concern.

...it would be a challenge to pick off targets at 900 meters with a Saiga.

Whoa. It's a challenge to pick off targets at that range with anything!

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:30 PM
If we want to talk about long range 308 rifles that is fine but let's leave the fantasy SHTF stuff out of it.
Right. Because no country was ever invaded, had a civil war, a war for independence, had been attacked by foreign religious zealots, or put its nose in the affairs of other nations. So, why would we ever need to be concerned?

Wait a minute...

earplug
October 7, 2012, 06:32 PM
The US Military is using AR based 7.62 rifles because they work and hold up better then other options.
I know you don't like that option, but sometimes its better to get what works best instead of what you like.

allaroundhunter
October 7, 2012, 06:36 PM
The US Military is using AR based 7.62 rifles because they work and hold up better then other options.
I know you don't like that option, but sometimes its better to get what works best instead of what you like.

They are also using M14s/M21s.

Sent from my HTC One X

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 06:38 PM
Right. Because no country was ever invaded, had a civil war, a war for independence, had been attacked by foreign religious zealots, or put its nose in the affairs of other nations. So, why would we ever need to be concerned?

Wait a minute...

To be fair here; The High Road does not engage in those topics of discussion.

This thread is pretty close to some of the topics you mentioned, but we have not, nor will we go there.

Let's keep this thread focused on the topic.

7.62/308 auto loader that is good for 800-900M.

Group hug?
Common guys....

Derek Zeanah
October 7, 2012, 06:47 PM
7.62/308 auto loader that is good for 800-900M.

Group hug?
Common guys....
My long range experience is limited, but I tend to think of 900m as bolt-action territory.

If we're talking about a .308 Semi that might be used at long range in a pinch, I still like the SCAR even though I only own the 5.56mm version. It just seems right to me, especially if mounting an optic.

meanmrmustard
October 7, 2012, 06:50 PM
My long range experience is limited, but I tend to think of 900m as bolt-action territory.

If we're talking about a .308 Semi that might be used at long range in a pinch, I still like the SCAR even though I only own the 5.56mm version. It just seems right to me, especially if mounting an optic.
Ok then, on topic. I agree with this statement.

If it HAS to be a semi, then I wouldn't feel undergunned with an LR308.

danweasel
October 7, 2012, 06:53 PM
Not many semis, other than an AR (not a fan either) that hit at 900. And the ones that can, aren't spectacularly rugged. An R5 maybe?

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 06:54 PM
My long range experience is limited, but I tend to think of 900m as bolt-action territory.



This was my first thought too.

If I need to be on target at 900M I need a bolt action.

The FN AR is the best rifle, in my opinion, mentioned soo far.

Does anyone know how many round you can put through that thing before it needs a cleaning?

JRWhit
October 7, 2012, 07:03 PM
Doesn't matter, you can have any 800-900 meter gun you want. How many people have the ability to pull those shots off? You may or may not, but I'm just saying. In a post disaster situation I would think it wise not to possibly waste ammo on such far out shots or even give away your position if a threat or food source is that far out. You might need that ammo.
But really, come on, lets get down off that ledge.:neener:

DeMilled
October 7, 2012, 07:11 PM
Not many semis, other than an AR (not a fan either) that hit at 900. And the ones that can, aren't spectacularly rugged. An R5 maybe?

Very good point!

C0untZer0, you know what field life is like.
Have you considered the rifle's field service reputation?

FAL For The Win!
(Sorry, just had to say it:))

Mot45acp
October 7, 2012, 07:17 PM
None have iron sights, so none of those. You loose your scope, you loose your gun.

BearGriz
October 7, 2012, 07:25 PM
Doesn't matter, you can have any 800-900 meter gun you want. How many people have the ability to pull those shots off? You may or may not, but I'm just saying. In a post disaster situation I would think it wise not to possibly waste ammo on such far out shots or even give away your position if a threat or food source is that far out. You might need that ammo.
But really, come on, lets get down off that ledge.:neener:

Yeah.

Two thoughts:

1) I've been reading these forums for a while, and while I get that we shouldn't engage in too much fantasy/speculation, I think knowing the situation the OP is anticipating does help.

2) I want to echo/add to the statements above (do you really think you can/want to shoot that far?):

Isn't target awareness/identification like, paramount? At 800-900 yards are you sure you are aiming at a real threat? It could be your cousin coming back from a hunt and he forgot to tell everyone that he was going out that morning. If it is a deer we're talking about, you might want to get closer*.

If it is a person you are targeting, at that distance it sounds like you are talking about shooting first and asking questions later.

*Also, I ain't no outdoor enthusiast or expert, but wouldn't you be more likely to find fish in the mountains than large game? I know guns/hunting are more pertinent to this forum, but I've wondered recently if in that scenario we'd all really find large game just waiting to become dinner.

And if you bagged a deer, could you use/preserve the meat before it went bad? Where is your supply of salt to preserve it? Fish just seems like a better plan.

Edited for clarity.

Girodin
October 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
If I need to be on target at 900M I need a bolt action.

I would prefer a bolt gun for serious long range shooting, but there are semis that can reach out that far very reasonably. The ones I would look at have been ruled out by the OP. The limit is more likely the shooter than the gun. Ability to read and correct for wind is much more limiting that the accuracy of good AR-10s.

eastbank
October 7, 2012, 08:24 PM
i know this is old school,but it was the first battle rifle i ever fired and i loved it,when i went to VN i was issued a m-16 and i missed my m-14. i bought this m1a and it is as good as the first one i fired. out to 500yds you had better be hid or moving pretty fast if you don,t want a extra hole in your body. eastbank.

lobo9er
October 7, 2012, 08:31 PM
hows about a DSA FAL or did that come up already?

http://vpgunwerks.com/pictures/gallery/DSA%20FAL%20SA58%20Congo.jpg

lobo9er
October 7, 2012, 08:32 PM
not mine wish it was, but I would go for a longer barrel than that one. looks like a 16.

C0untZer0
October 7, 2012, 08:37 PM
I've always heard good things about the Browning Safari, but just the rifle itself - not specifically as a 308.

Reading the Outdoor Life article it says:

Many say the Safari shoots as accurately as Browning's ultra-accurate A Bolt and X Bolt rifles.

gunnutery
October 7, 2012, 09:50 PM
Of the three you listed, I chose the m21, but for the cost it seems very impractical. Probably a PTR or FAL or even the standard M1A would be better in my opinion.

Luger_carbine
October 7, 2012, 10:20 PM
I think the only FN rifle that fits what you seem to be looking for is the Fabrique Nationale FN Special Police Rilfe - probably the one that had all the McMillan stuff added and was chosed by the FBI as their Tactical Precision Rifle. I think it's the SPR A3 G...

TexAg
October 7, 2012, 10:30 PM
I have an SX-AR, basically same as the FNAR and it is MOA. In 100 rounds I've only put a boresnake through it and so far that's all I think it needs.

fireside44
October 7, 2012, 10:32 PM
Isn't target awareness/identification like, paramount? At 800-900 yards are you sure you are aiming at a real threat?

I'd have to agree with this. Not many places around my area and most other areas I've lived where a 800 yard shot is possible without having staked out the location prior and setting yourself up in a sort of sniping position. I'm more worried about threats inside 300 or less yards, my property and so forth. I guess I could understand if you were on a large ranch though.

justice06rr
October 7, 2012, 10:47 PM
The Scar17 would be my suggestion.

C0untZer0
October 7, 2012, 10:52 PM
I read that they started issuing Border Patrol agents M14s. An M14 is probably going to give a Border Patrol agent greater range and accuracy than most of the stuff that the smugglers would be employing.

The thought just bugs me that if I had an average semi-auto in 308, where hitting targets past 750 meters gets iffy, I'd hate to be in a situation where if I got into a confrontation with someone else with a rifle that all they had to do was backup a hundred meters or so creating a situation where they can light me up while I can only put bullets in the dirt...

black_powder_Rob
October 7, 2012, 11:39 PM
how would you get into a confrontation with someone over 750 meters?
Just curious. Just wondering what your situation would be.

As with others above I would think a good bolt gun with a high quality glass would be able to handle your conundrum.

Girodin
October 7, 2012, 11:51 PM
The OP could go over to warrior talk, convicted criminal, Gabe Suarez, and his sheep are all about discussing "guerrilla sniper" topics for and other Red Dawn-esque fantasy. Gabe will also be happy to steer you to the perfect rifle for the job (at a higher price than you'd find else where), sale you accessories for it, and then in several months convince you it is a no longer a viable option despite all his previous praise and sell you a new latest and greatest rifle.

The number of people talking about FALs, PTR-91s, etc make me think that these folks either haven't shot those guns much or haven't shot out to 900 yards much. Guns like that are often 2-3 MOA guns. That type of a gun one likely cannot reliably make first round COM hits much past 600 yards.

C0untZer0
October 8, 2012, 12:22 AM
I guess my research on the FN FNAR was off...

henschman
October 8, 2012, 12:44 AM
There seems to be a trend of threads with novices who ask for opinions on rifles for a certain role, but rule out the best choice for that role.

I'm not sure why you would rule out the only .308 semi auto that is actually winning sniper/long range precision competitions at those ranges, and which is proving highly effective in that role in real life. I know it's your buying decision and you can put whatever conditions you want on it, but you are really doing yourself a disservice by excluding the .308 AR. The fact that you would consider the Safari and FNAR for that role yet would exclude the .308 AR tells me that you don't have much experience in this type of shooting. I would suggest listening to the opinions of those with more experience before limiting your choices like that.

Ask your question on any serious forum that is dedicated to sniping, like sniper's hide, and you will overwhelmingly get recommendations for .308 AR variants, like the LaRue OBR and the GA Precision GAP-10.

Driftertank
October 8, 2012, 02:02 AM
Personal experience: my PTR and a friend's M1A have both printed in the 1.5 MOA range with the right ammo.

With a bit of load tweaking 1 MOA is likely do-able given favorable weather conditions and a touch of luck. We're both building our rifles in the same vein as the OP's concept, sortof general purpose DMR's; hunt out to 500, target shoot out to 800.

Every platform has it's pros and cons, but for a field-intended rough use gun, rifles adopted, or at least designed for, military use tend to be reliable and easier to maintain.

Of the options listed by the OP, i'd pick the "M-21"

Just my opinion and experience. Nothing more.

Flfiremedic
October 8, 2012, 04:27 AM
If you want a semi-auto, and are looking at 900 meters, go with the Browning in 300 Win Mag.

rhinoh
October 8, 2012, 04:50 AM
*Also, I ain't no outdoor enthusiast or expert, but wouldn't you be more likely to find fish in the mountains than large game? I know guns/hunting are more pertinent to this forum, but I've wondered recently if in that scenario we'd all really find large game just waiting to become dinner.



The mountains of NC where I have a camp and my "go to" place in a "post disaster" is over run with deer and turkey. There isn't a fish within a couple of miles.
I'm not a hunter but I am prepared to hunt if hunger dictated, .308 for the deer and 12 gauge for the turkey, or if game laws need to be broken to survive, .22 for turkey farther out than shotgun range. There are even a few black bear and coyotes if times got bad enough.

For .308 I have a LR308, a Ruger American and a Remington 700 ADL Varmint. Right now the Ruger is the most accurate, the DPMS next and sadly my new 700 isn't so great, but certainly minute of deer out to some huge distance I'd never likely have in dense forest in my camp area.
Bang for the buck for hunting the Ruger is the best deal of the 3, the DPMS would be my choice if I only had one.

Girodin
October 8, 2012, 05:01 AM
Personal experience: my PTR and a friend's M1A have both printed in the 1.5 MOA range with the right ammo.

What was the measure of that? Three shot groups? Five shot groups? Ten shot groups? Is this consistent or is that a measure of select groups? Also how far out have you shot it. It is not always the case that 1.5" at 100 yards means 4.5" at 300 or 13.5" at 900 yards (which BTW might be enough to put you off target). I'm not doubting, I'm just curious and want to be sure we are comparing apples to apples. Also even a consistent 1.5 MOA gun for 10 shot groups isn't anything close to the sub MOA groups of the best AR10 guns

eastbank
October 8, 2012, 07:01 AM
for every shot taken at 800-900 yds,you will most likely take 10 shots at 300yds or closer. and having a good set of irons on your rifle is just as important as a good scope. and it must be relieable and be maintained with minium fuss,while keeping the weight down. if the poster did not want a semi-auto rifle i would say a bolt action may be the answer. i have a rem 700 syn stocked pillar bedded in 308 with a 20 inch medium weight barrel that is super accurate(2-3 "groups at 300yds) with 165gr-180gr nosler BT bullets with varget powder and a 6.5x20 target leupold. eastbank.

eastbank
October 8, 2012, 07:13 AM
sorry double post

allaroundhunter
October 8, 2012, 08:57 AM
I read that they started issuing Border Patrol agents M14s. An M14 is probably going to give a Border Patrol agent greater range and accuracy than most of the stuff that the smugglers would be employing.

While I wouldn't doubt it, I have never seen a border patrol agent with one. The only rifles that I see in the hands of BP are M4/AR15s with eotech sights. If they have to fire in the line of duty, it is still typically close range, or well within the range that an AR is a better choice over an M14.

303tom
October 8, 2012, 09:18 AM
Limited to 7.62x51 NATO. And a semi-auto rifle – no bolt action. I carried, qualified with, and cleaned the M16 for 11 years, and I never liked it, so I’m not looking for an AR chambered in 7.62 I know there are other long range cartridges like the 338 Lapua, but I want to stick with 7.62 NATO. If someone wanted a rifle in this caliber to potentially engage targets out to 800 - 900 meters in a post disaster situation, which would be your choice:

Springfield Armory M21 tactical
FN FNAR w/20" barrel
Browning Safari in .308
308 for a post disaster, I voted (other) because, NO semi-auto, bolt action only, less to go wrong.................

Driftertank
October 8, 2012, 10:40 AM
What was the measure of that? (...) Also how far out have you shot it. It is not always the case that 1.5" at 100 yards means 4.5" at 300 or 13.5" at 900 yards (which BTW might be enough to put you off target). I'm not doubting, I'm just curious and want to be sure we are comparing apples to apples. Also even a consistent 1.5 MOA gun for 10 shot groups isn't anything close to the sub MOA groups of the best AR10 guns

5 shot groups at 100. Seen both rifles do groups like that fairly consistently. To be honest we don't get near as much range time as we'd like, we've been working on load development so we can fix that. We have a 900yd range to work on, and the goal is to be able to place first-round hits on a B-27 silhouette at 800. One more round of testing should finalize a decent load, then we'll start stretching out.

I won't deny that a quality AR-type has more inherent accuracy, anecdotally, but like the OP, as a matter of personal preference neither of us particularly care for AR-types.

Kahr33556
October 8, 2012, 10:42 AM
I voted other because I'm not worried about a disaster or Zommbies

Neo-Luddite
October 8, 2012, 10:50 AM
Get an M-1 Garand in .06 and buy tons of m2 from the CMP. THEN get a little chamber insert and a can of permatex to addapt the M-1 to eat .308 if needed. Round this out with a modern varriable gas screw (like 60 bucks), and you've got one bad a$$ .30 battle rifle that will reach out and touch in 2 calibers, can be moved lawfully across Canadian borders, and is NYC and Cali legal. And as a bonus, can pump lawful and exempt as sportin per ATF real deal M2 AP in .30/06.

And the CMP still has some to sell. Legally and parcatically, the M-1 is still a versitile and formidible weapon. Just my .02. At TEOTWAWKI I'll have that, my AK, and my 500A handy.

d2wing
October 8, 2012, 10:18 PM
Way back in 1967 several of us were able to hit man size targets at 600 meters
With issue m-14's. that said I 'd consider a AR first. A New style BAR by FN is a possibility as is the Remington 750. Don't laugh, I've seen Remington 742 and 7400's that under 1.5 MOA in 30-06 hand loads. They are lighter, easier to handle, and more accurate than most military rifles. Not as rugged though.
I don't know much about the FNAR but I have looked at them. To heavy for me too hunt with but maybe just the ticket for the OP.

Coop45
October 8, 2012, 11:40 PM
Have you considered Naval gunfire? I am sure if there is a breakdown of society and we can no longer get Bud Light to drink while watching the NFL on television, the New Jersey will immediately put back to sea to provide protection for the Army-Navy game. Your fears have me thinking, I might lay in an extra pack of Fig Newtons......just in case.:D

Robert
October 8, 2012, 11:48 PM
It was a simple request to keep this focused on firearms and not fantasy. The chances of a Mad Max or Book of Eli style event taking place is pretty slim and none. The US is facing many problems right now. Pretty much all of them fall outside of the scope of the mission of THR. And playing cowboys and <insert flavor of the moment fad bad guy or event> is not the mission of THR.

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