Which loading manual shows charge weight by fps?


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GLOOB
October 7, 2012, 04:13 PM
So I was scouring the web for reduced load info for 7mm-08, particularly with Win 748.

I swear I found a manufacturer's loading manual/pdf which showed charge weight of various powders divided into several columns by fps.

For 7mm-08 with a 139 gr jacketed bullet, it showed a variety of powders and charge weights for:

2400fps/2500fps/2600fps/2700fps/2800fps/2900fps/3000fps, or something like that.

(Many of the powders maxed out well before the 3000fps, but most had listed charge weights starting at 2400.)

This was great, because 2400fps charge weights were considerably lower than the start charges I can find from any other source. For Win 748, the 2400fps start charge was only 35.8 gr, IIRC.

Well, I loaded up 50rds at 36.5gr. The load was accurate enough. Recoil was mild. No funny sounds. I have shot them all. Brass was fine. And I can't find the manual, anymore! I am out of W 748, and I didn't plan to buy anymore; I have a lot of H335, and they seem fairly similar.

Anyone know what I was looking at? IIRC, it was from one of the major manufacturers (can't recall if ammo, components, powder, or equipment manufacturer. But it was a recognizable name.) IIRC, it listed powders from manufacturers including Winchester, Alliant, and IMR, among others.

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rcmodel
October 7, 2012, 04:21 PM
Hornady manuals are set up by velocity columns.

Little light on really reduced loads though.

However your best & safest bet would be this using H-4895:
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

rc

GLOOB
October 7, 2012, 04:28 PM
Thanks. I don't find anything from a google search. From what I recall, Hornady's online info is limited to very few powders for specific bullets. I'm pretty sure that wasn't what I was looking at.

This manual had colored columns in yellow and green (I think?) and listed a large selection of powders.

As for H4985, I belive that was one of the powders listed. Or perhaps it was IMR4985. If only I could find this manual, again. Not that I would trust any one source, completely. But it was nice to have as a reference.

Hodgdon's manual is my go-to. And they list a 37.5gr charge for H335 for a 138 gr bullet. So that's good. I was just curious to find this chart, again, to perhaps get a better idea of other powders that might be the most versatile to include reduced recoil loads.

helotaxi
October 7, 2012, 04:29 PM
The Sierra manual is divided into columns as you describe.

GLOOB
October 7, 2012, 04:33 PM
OK, thanks. I was looking at this online, for free. I don't see Sierra's manual.

blarby
October 7, 2012, 04:36 PM
The speer manual lists FPS with each load.

jmr40
October 8, 2012, 07:46 PM
I've never seen a manual that didn't give an expected velocity with minimum loads and maximum loads. Bear in mind that this is just an approximate speed. Many, many other variables apply and you could see very different numbers with different guns.

dragon813gt
October 8, 2012, 08:02 PM
OK, thanks. I was looking at this online, for free. I don't see Sierra's manual.

That's because you have to pay for it. The only ones that give it out for free are the powder manufacturers.


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Jasper1573
October 8, 2012, 10:48 PM
OK, thanks. I was looking at this online, for free. I don't see Sierra's manual.

Take a look at the link(s) below...first one is general info and second one is 7-08 load data from Sierra.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/7mm/#7mm08

http://accurateshooter.net/pix/sierra708.pdf

StretchNM
October 8, 2012, 11:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Lee lists the fastest down to the slowest. My Lee manual is elsewhere right now, or I would double-check that, but I remain relatively certain that's the case.

ON EDIT: I just scrolled up and re-read your initial post. Hmmm. I really am not sure if my answer is what you were asking about.

SSN Vet
October 9, 2012, 03:15 PM
Lee lists a start load and max load for each powder and lists the powder by max. load velocity.

They do not list multiple velocities for each powder by charge wt.

GLOOB
October 9, 2012, 04:36 PM
Jasper, thanks. That was what I was looking at.

Yeah, most load manuals list the expected velocity of a start charge and a max charge. And some manuals might list a few loads in between.

The really striking thing about the Sierra manual that Jasper linked to, is that they list a range of velocites, then they list the charge weight for each velocity. The really weird thing is that this results in a 2400 fps start charge for all powders listed* for a 140gr bullet in 7mm-08. With a typical manual, you get a range of starting velocities. With Hodgdon Reloading Center, for example, there's a range of start load velocities from 2500-2660 (and then Trailboss at 1250).

Weird, right? When you look at a typical load manual and it warns you not to go below the start charge, it's scary. Each start charge appears to have been chosen for some good reason. When you look at Sierra's info, which already starts lower than Hodgdon's, you wonder how 2400 fps is the exact velocity for every safe starting charge. It can't be. So either some of their start charges are dangerously low, or there's a bit of room to experiment in with at least some of those powders.

*Now if you look at some of the other bullets weights, some powders don't have a load listed at the minimum FPS. But makes you wonder how low the others could potentially go.

For now, I'm sticking to the books, but revelations like this are enough to make me start thinking that load manuals are somewhat arbitrary, particularly when it comes to minimum load. Perhaps due to the ill-understood and difficult (impossible?) to reproduce nature of the SEE/detonation phenomenon.

Jasper1573
October 9, 2012, 08:00 PM
Take note that in the Sierra manual for the 7-08, I believe they use a 26 inch barrel. If your barrel is shorter/longer your velocity will vary somewhat. Additionally, I contacted Sierra a couple of years ago and asked why their loads seemed so conservative. They simply replied "Yes, they are," and it was basically for safety reasons.

It seems that the powder mfr's loads are more aggressive.

helotaxi
October 9, 2012, 10:13 PM
Weird, right? When you look at a typical load manual and it warns you not to go below the start charge, it's scary. Each start charge appears to have been chosen for some good reason. When you look at Sierra's info, which already starts lower than Hodgdon's, you wonder how 2400 fps is the exact velocity for every safe starting charge. It can't be. So either some of their start charges are dangerously low, or there's a bit of room to experiment in with at least some of those powders.

Other than a few powder/cartridge combinations, I've yet to see anything saying that it's "unsafe" to go below listed start charges. The reality is that with most load data, they reduce the maximum by a certain percentage to arrive at the start charge. It does nothing but ensure a load that will be safe in all firearms as a place to start working up.

There are a few handgun recipes that I've seen annotations stating "DO NOT REDUCE" but they pretty much are all with H110/W296. Funny things happen with that powder when it doesn't fill the case and build enough pressure to begin with.

Something that you'll also notice with Sierra's loads are that their accuracy loads are almost always a "max" load in their table. Tells me that they're working up loads looking for consistency of burn and not max pressure.

GLOOB
October 10, 2012, 02:47 PM
Other than a few powder/cartridge combinations, I've yet to see anything saying that it's "unsafe" to go below listed start charges.
If you look at the bottom of the page on the Sierra manual link, you see the warning to not go below minimum load.

If you google "SEE detonation reloading" you will find some info about the dangers of reduced loads. This is most often associated with rifle loads with highly reduced charges of slow powders. There are some debatable cases in handguns, which might be attributable to double charges with fast powders.

There are a few handgun recipes that I've seen annotations stating "DO NOT REDUCE" but they pretty much are all with H110/W296.
H110/W296 is a relatively slow ball powders for magnum handgun cartridges with relatively large case capacity. There are lots of much slower ball powders for rifles with much larger case capacities. Something to think about, maybe.

helotaxi
October 10, 2012, 09:13 PM
Sierra places their standard "Loads less than minimum charges shown are not recommended" on the bottom of every page of load data in their reloading manual. That isn't the same as saying "DO NOT REDUCE" and is placed there because reduced loads beyond that simply haven't been tested. They might be erratic in ignition, they might be perfectly reliable. In any case they're likely perfectly safe.

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