Stupid range rules...


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leadcounsel
October 7, 2012, 05:16 PM
My range has some stupid range rules. I can live with them, but they are just dumb.

First, the dumbest. Silhouette targets cannot have ANY human features. No picturs of Osama Bin Laden for instance. Okay, I can *maybe* understand that. Then, no Zombie silhouettes?! Huh?? And finally, I was spoken to yesterday for taking large paper and drawing with a marker literally a silhouetted that had eyes and a mouth. I was told not to do that. Are you kidding me!?

Second, 8 rounds max in ANY gun. Supposedly it's either because of the M1 Garand or insurance reasons (in the event someones weapons goes full auto...). Both are really stupid reasons. How are you supposed to reliably test your high-cap mags to capacity?

I appreciate the range and it's close, convenient, and inexpensive... but these rules are just dumb.

Anyone else deal with absurd rules...?

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Shadow 7D
October 7, 2012, 05:21 PM
Um, get on the board, point out the difficulties, and who is trying to enforce these

tyeo098
October 7, 2012, 05:22 PM
The first range I went to said no exposed lead. (Soft points, LRN, etc)
I stood there all quizzical, and asked if they knew what happened to a bullet when it hit their steel backstop. They said it was the rules. Also said I couldn't pick up my own brass.

Being a reloader those were BOTH deal killers. Never went back.

Switched ranges after that. Now I can shoot whatever I want (inc. steel core surplus Nagant food) and pick up all the brass I want. (Provided I ask the person who is leaving it there if it is not mine).

I love my range <3

Kyle M.
October 7, 2012, 05:31 PM
I really like my local range even though it's only about 100 yards theres hardly anyone ever there and you can use whatever you want as a target, and shoot whatever you want. Theres surprisingly not even a posting of rules or anyone around to report any issues too. It's just there and you shoot.

Flashcube
October 7, 2012, 05:34 PM
The private range I'm a member with has a six round limit. I assume it is a holdover from when revolvers were the dominant handgun used in their pistol matches. No one will get on your case if you load a few more though so long as you're not just blasting away.

I go to the local outdoor range when I'm in the mood to just turn money into smoke and noise. :D

DNS
October 7, 2012, 05:44 PM
Really liked our local range but they've had some kids getting ignorant lately and I'm certain they sneak in and raise heck. Anyhow they decided to make all members this year go through a several hour safety course. :mad:

Pass.

I'm just gonna get some unincorporared land and set up my own.

bhhacker
October 7, 2012, 05:44 PM
Wow. a range that wont let you pick up your own brass? Its all about squeezing out all that profit isnt it?

In Austin, id pay 17/hr plus targets to shoot at an indoor range and they would run on by and sweep up my brass after firing.

I told them politely to knock that off. I was already getting had for paying that much for range time, then they wanted to steal all my brass too!

I much prefer the outside range up here in Juneau! Its free! (well, donations are accepted)

Inebriated
October 7, 2012, 05:52 PM
My range has some stupid range rules. I can live with them, but they are just dumb.

First, the dumbest. Silhouette targets cannot have ANY human features. No picturs of Osama Bin Laden for instance. Okay, I can *maybe* understand that. Then, no Zombie silhouettes?! Huh?? And finally, I was spoken to yesterday for taking large paper and drawing with a marker literally a silhouetted that had eyes and a mouth. I was told not to do that. Are you kidding me!?

You kind of knew better, though. Why do you need it to have a face? Put a small circle where the head would be, a small circle where the vitals would be, and call it a day. It's stupid, but that's the way it is.
Second, 8 rounds max in ANY gun. Supposedly it's either because of the M1 Garand or insurance reasons (in the event someones weapons goes full auto...). Both are really stupid reasons. How are you supposed to reliably test your high-cap mags to capacity?


Put a snap cap in after what would be the 8th shot, and show them that the gun won't cycle past that round.
I appreciate the range and it's close, convenient, and inexpensive... but these rules are just dumb.

Anyone else deal with absurd rules...?
No, and I wouldn't put up with them unless absolutely necessary.

Certaindeaf
October 7, 2012, 05:58 PM
I went shooting at a place not long ago and the nice young fellows next to me said I could have their brass. So after they leave, I'm coal shoveling it up when an adamant young female "rangemaster" tells me that I can't do that. I said that it was mine/given me.. had to do that a couple/three times. I got my brass.

JohnM
October 7, 2012, 06:04 PM
I'm so glad if I want to shoot I just walk out side.

Certaindeaf
October 7, 2012, 06:09 PM
I'm so glad if I want to shoot I just walk out side.
Anyone can do that. Elvis used to shoot his TV.

Blackstone
October 7, 2012, 06:27 PM
Sounds like you're slowly becoming like us Brits. Targets resembling humans are officially banned here. Pepper poppers are probably the most you can get away with.

Arkansas Paul
October 7, 2012, 06:29 PM
No stupid rules where I shoot. I just joined, but have been there several times as a guest.

The only one they're really strict about is that all shots fired must impact a berm. No shooting at cans and stuff on the ground. I can understand that here though. It's on the side of a mountain basically and the ground is extremely rocky. Ricochets would be an issue, no doubt.

I absolutely would not shoot at a range that wouldn't let people keep their own brass that they brought. I'd just drive out in the country until I found a suitable spot first. Of course I realize that everyone doesn't have that luxury.

essayons21
October 7, 2012, 06:30 PM
A range, which hosts IDPA matches, and does not allow "rapid fire" on the pistol range...

I got tired of the owner browbeating me and other members and took my money to the other side of town, where the primary rules are don't shoot anybody, and leave the range better than you found it.

wrs840
October 7, 2012, 06:37 PM
I'm in the same sorry boat as JohnM. I shoot Elvis' TV as fast as I want.

And no one bitches.

Jeez.

pintler
October 7, 2012, 06:42 PM
How are you supposed to reliably test your high-cap mags to capacity?

Let's call the position of top round #1 and the bottom one position #30.

Load and shoot 8 rounds until you're happy with the results. That checks position #1, #2, ..., #8.

Load 8 dummy rounds then 8 live ones. Shoot the 8 live ones, repeat until you're happy. That verifies function of positions #9, ..., #16.

Load 16 dummies and 8 live, that verifies position #17, ...,#24, and so on.

I think those rules, as well as the all too common '2 seconds between shots'(1) are intended to keep people from shooting up target holders and so on. A better rule, IMHO, is shoot as much/fast as you want, as long as you are keeping them all on the paper.

(1)That one bothers me more - you can practice defensive shooting w/ plain silhouettes and you can download mags, but there is no way around a 2 sec rule.

JohnM
October 7, 2012, 06:42 PM
Elvis used to shoot his TV

I've been tempted.

Certaindeaf
October 7, 2012, 06:43 PM
Sounds like you're slowly becoming like us Brits. Targets resembling humans are officially banned here. Pepper poppers are probably the most you can get away with."We" just make the odd "anti-" movie perhaps.. right. dang 1'st amendment.. can't have that!

22-rimfire
October 7, 2012, 06:55 PM
I would be looking for another range or at least look at my options.

I am a member of a private range within 20 minutes (probably more like 10 minutes) of where I live. But, I often drive about an hour to a public range just because I am usually the only person there shooting and I don't have to pay much attention to "range rules" other than to be safe.

dondavis3
October 7, 2012, 06:58 PM
The rules you've shown do seem silly to me.

Most ranges rules I heartily agree with.

:cool:

hso
October 7, 2012, 07:04 PM
The 8 round rule seems arbitrary and strange.

I can understand the no faces so drawing in the eyes and mouth would get you spanked.

I agree that if it is a club you should become involved by joining the board.

Kahr33556
October 7, 2012, 07:16 PM
My range sells Osama targets

dprice3844444
October 7, 2012, 07:28 PM
the no human form thing is a politically correct racial issue.my brass is my brass.have them arrested for petty theft.police training mostly uses blue Silhouette targets because somebody complained that it was training them to shoot blacks.so now everything is gender neutral

JRWhit
October 7, 2012, 07:38 PM
Sounds like you should take your money elsewhere.
I understand needs for them but, they are one size fits all rules due to the irresponsible few that warrant them. At the range I attend on occasion,when the weather sucks to much to shoot at the house, they go by ability. If the range master sees that you are capable and not just randomly spraying bullets, rapid fire is o.k. based on ability of the shooter. There is no capacity limit,it is just as simple as if you are not deemed safe in practice then you will be asked to leave. Policing your own brass is allowed. On another note they sell brass that is not picked up, usually about $20 for 250 pieces of a given caliber.
I can never understand why things can't be as simple. I'f somebody is doing something unsafe, make them stop or kick them out. Don't make new rules for everybody because of the few and far between.

checkmyswag
October 7, 2012, 07:45 PM
Again...thankful I have access to such a good gun range...now I just need to use it more!

Saakee
October 7, 2012, 07:55 PM
blue targets? that's just training them to shoot men! That's incredibly sexist! Make the targets a rainbow! then of course the LGBTs would complain. You can never win.

mf-dif
October 7, 2012, 07:55 PM
There is a pistol range that wont let you shoot any targets closer than 15yds. Another one around me magnet tests your ammo. Which I don't agree with because they sell tulammo and bear ammo. Buy it from them and you can shoot it. But if you bring your own nope.

danweasel
October 7, 2012, 08:05 PM
No shotshells of any kind, even at your own target stand (they have semi-permanent target boards at my range).

Supposedly my range is single load only too, but I was shooting 30rd mags through my AK, at an accurate pace of course, yesterday.

leadcounsel
October 7, 2012, 08:10 PM
Oh, there is another stupid rule I forgot about: NO rapid fire. So that means no double taps.

As far as the no "face" drawings, I wasn't aware of that when I did it. It just makes no sense at all. I mean, if it's a human silhoutte, then what's the difference if there's a face or not. All humans have faces, right? What if my training I want to shoot between the eyes, or in the eye or mouth? I can't very well if there's no eyes or mouth!

RustHunter87
October 7, 2012, 08:17 PM
right, humans have faces, silhouettes don't. yours did that's the problem with it you gave it personality, you added "human features"
i agree with the others you definitely need a new range

essayons21
October 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
What if my training I want to shoot between the eyes, or in the eye or mouth? I can't very well if there's no eyes or mouth!

Just do like Mel Gibson and shoot a face onto your silhouette. Problem solved!

Warp
October 7, 2012, 08:28 PM
Some of the rules that gun ranges have are more stupid than the anti gun laws our legislatures pass. It's sad, really.

JRWhit
October 7, 2012, 08:36 PM
Just do like Mel Gibson and shoot a face onto your silhouette. Problem solved!

Will it to me Riggs

jcwit
October 7, 2012, 08:51 PM
Their range, their rules, don't like it? Attend the membership meetings, try to get elected into a position, or move on.

What has been done here has done nothing or changed anything.

Owen Sparks
October 7, 2012, 09:04 PM
Contrairy to popular belief the rules are not made for everyone, they are made for fools and treat everyone else like a fool. They are set for the weakest link or lowest common denominator. I shoot at a local dirt pit with no supervision and no rules.

TrueTexan
October 7, 2012, 09:13 PM
A private range near me does not allow any human silhouette targets at all still allows animal silhouette.

The range I shoot at requires. 2 second period between shots, except on the defense range and you have to join that separately and pay a monthly and hourly fee.

The range charges a daily fee that you can shoot all day for $17 just no rapid fire.

coolluke01
October 7, 2012, 09:43 PM
The range I belong to has no rules besides basic safety rules. It's great. Nice and free. No need to buy targets or ammo and for $35 a year you can't go wrong.

Another local club that just started makes you buy their targets. If you bring your own you still have to pay $1 for each. Targets can't have a head at all. No silhouettes!

Warp
October 7, 2012, 09:50 PM
What I can't get over is how every single rifle range I have ever been to (no, I haven't been to a ton) lets you shoot from anywhere you want...as long as it is seated at the bench. So. Lame.

Almost have to go to an Appleseed just to shoot from an actual damn position.

TAKtical
October 7, 2012, 09:52 PM
Dont give them your hard earned cash. I drive 40 minutes past my local range to shoot at an outdoor club that doesnt have ridiculous rules. The local range will only let you shoot ammo you bought from them and they want $37.50 for 100 rounds of 9mm. Thats .45acp prices! Lol. I dont know how some people stay in business.

offroaddiver
October 7, 2012, 09:58 PM
there are several ranges near the house and unfortunately there are several rules that irritate me. I usually drive past the annoying ranges to the one I frequent, but that's life. Irritating rules include everything from no picking up brass to lever and bolt action guns must be single shot and must shoot seated with atleast one elbow touching the table. If you use a bolt action the action must be worked upside down to "keep people from shooting past the backstop"

checkmyswag
October 7, 2012, 10:04 PM
OP...is this on a military range?


In Austin, id pay 17/hr plus targets to shoot at an indoor range and they would run on by and sweep up my brass after firing.

I only go to Reds if I have to make it a short trip. Staff is nice enough but I do not like shooting indoors with a bunch of people I don't know.

Much prefer a couple of the outdoor ranges her in ATX.

saitek
October 7, 2012, 10:14 PM
man what is this world coming to ! my gun club is the better part of close to a 100 year's old we have rule's ,be a nra member,be safe , 1 hr aprxamate safety course .we used to be a coon hunters club .we have cmp high power military gun shoot's,iron sights ,military bolt gun shoot's junier cmp 22 shoots.pistol shoots ,trap shoot's ,black powder ,silouet matches. with over 700 member's we try foer camarady and a good time not so structured that it is a pain to get in whn ever you want,except for a sceduled meet . we all try to have a good time .
oak hill's gun club :D

EddieNFL
October 7, 2012, 10:15 PM
They are set for the weakest link or lowest common denominator.

Spot on.

Cluster Bomb
October 7, 2012, 10:31 PM
I have my own range. Common sense rules.

Id find another range that's more American aka supports freedom

jcwit
October 7, 2012, 11:44 PM
Id find another range that's more American aka supports freedom


I've seen some of those ranges that support freedom, scary, REAL SCARY.

Warp
October 7, 2012, 11:51 PM
I've seen some of those ranges that support freedom, scary, REAL SCARY.

It's really scary to allow more than 8 rounds in a magazine?

Or allow zombie targets?

rswartsell
October 7, 2012, 11:54 PM
Unfortunately if you invest your life savings in a range, and then open to the public (or even enough screened "members"), you will find that legislating rules is a "lowest common denominator" excercise. I have seen enough mall ninja, cowboy, I was a Navy Seal can't tell you where or I would have to kill you according to my CIA/Blackwater blacker ops contract, I saw it on youtube and read about it in Soldier of Fortune foolishness to give me some sympathy for where some of this comes from. Sadly we are not all reasonable responsible thinking adults. Firearms accidents are known for being cruelly unforgiving. The folks writing the rules are not guaranteed to be immune to foolishness either. Most are a mild irritant at worst, and if worse than that it is really on you to pack up for greener pastures.

P.S. The picture in the dictionary beside insurance underwriter is eerily similar to the one next to pencil neck dweeb.

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 12:11 AM
It's really scary to allow more than 8 rounds in a magazine?

Or allow zombie targets?


No, not really but I've seen ranges with freedom where the shooters place one of their kids at the top of the hill to signal when the farmer combining the field behind the hill comes in line of fire and then let the shooters know when the farmer is past so they may continue to shoot. This is while the kid stays at the top of said hill keeping look out.


Yup there times total freedom is scary.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:12 AM
No, not really but I've seen ranges with freedom where the shooters place one of their kids at the top of the hill to signal when the farmer combining the field behind the hill comes in line of fire and then let the shooters know when the farmer is past so they may continue to shoot. This is while the kid stays at the top of said hill keeping look out.


Yup there times total freedom is scary.

Clearly the rules brought up by the OP, and being complained about within this thread, are of an entirely different nature than that.

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 12:21 AM
Clearly the rules brought up by the OP, and being complained about within this thread, are of an entirely different nature than that.

Yes, but when one brings up freedom there are no restrictions, at least none that were brought up.

You seem to be thinking "common sense" would prevail, I've yet to see that happen often in my 69 years.

Furthermore the griping/complaining here about the range rules does nothing to correct the OP's problem, as I've already stated.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:28 AM
Yes, but when one brings up freedom there are no restrictions, at least none that were brought up.

You seem to be thinking "common sense" would prevail, I've yet to see that happen often in my 69 years.

Furthermore the griping/complaining here about the range rules does nothing to correct the OP's problem, as I've already stated.

Virtually nothing posted on an internet message forum does anything to correct any problems.

I don't see how a zombie target or 9 rounds in a magazine makes people safer, or prevents people from putting their kids downrange to signal to the shooters.

r1derbike
October 8, 2012, 12:32 AM
An LEO acquaintance said he was called on the carpet by his Lt. Commander about doing the mouth/eyes thing on a silhouette.

Lucy! You have some 'splainin' to do! :evil:

He carries Springfield Armory 9mm, .40, and .45.

I have a new XDs he would like to get his hands on.

The retirement village I live in has private pistol, rifle, and skeet ranges. You have to pay dues, then pick-up keys at the local golf club house, and 1.5 hr. max. checkout time, with a charge of 4 bucks for key rental.

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 12:33 AM
Virtually nothing posted on an internet message forum does anything to correct any problems.

I don't see how a zombie target or 9 rounds in a magazine makes people safer, or prevents people from putting their kids downrange to signal to the shooters.
__________________


Sorry you can't see it, but its called "rules" whether they make sense to everyone or not. You may have your opinion as to what's right and wrong, and the others may have there's. Don't like it? Work at getting it changed, or move on to the freedom range and their lack of rules or may hap their stricter rules.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:34 AM
Sorry you can't see it, but its called "rules" whether they make sense to everyone or not. You may have your opinion as to what's right and wrong, and the others may have there's. Don't like it? Work at getting it changed, or move on to the freedom range and their lack of rules or may hap their stricter rules.

I completely understand that. You seem to have a different opinion. You seemed to have the opinion that perhaps 8 rounds per mag and no zombie targets were "right", or made sense.

I was hoping you could shed some light onto the opposing viewpoint/opinion so that I could better understand it.

It appears I was mistaken.

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 12:48 AM
I could care less what type of target is shot at other than glass, because few people seem to like to clean it up, or in the case of the range where I shoot steel targets because of ricochets. Paper targets with whatever they have printed on them are OK with me, but other ranges may/and do obviously feel differently.

As far as an 8 round mag, have at it, again I could care less, but then I have never been to the range where they are banned and know not their reasons, whatever they may be. They may have good reasons, then again they may not, I have no idea. I can see none but I have not been there and know not their problems or circumstances.

It appears I was mistaken.

Sorta hard to make an intelligent judgment without knowing what the ranges problems/circumstances are

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 12:52 AM
I completely understand that. You seem to have a different opinion. You seemed to have the opinion that perhaps 8 rounds per mag and no zombie targets were "right", or made sense.


Very possible they are "right", or make sense at their range, I've never been there, have you?

Warp
October 8, 2012, 12:56 AM
Very possible they are "right", or make sense at their range, I've never been there, have you?

Can you think of something that would make them "right" or make it make sense?

I'm trying to, and I can't. Can you?

OP, can you find out/tell us what their reasoning is?

jcwit
October 8, 2012, 01:16 AM
Can you think of something that would make them "right" or make it make sense?

I'm trying to, and I can't. Can you?

From my post #55

Sorta hard to make an intelligent judgment without knowing what the ranges problems/circumstances are
__________________

RTR_RTR
October 8, 2012, 01:34 AM
Hollowpoints only on the rifle range.....................:cuss:

alienbogey
October 8, 2012, 02:02 AM
Similar rules at our range:

Instead of eight round magazine limit: SIX. (Supposedly due to rare-but-it's-happened semi autos going full auto and the resulting muzzle climb)

Rifles may only be shot from a seated position. (Due to clowns with AR's/AK's/SKS's playing Call of Duty and dumping their magazines down range and having little or no control or care over where they actually go.)

No human targets.

Paper targets only.

The first two rules above are actually (somewhat) understandable because our 80 year old range has had houses grow up all around it. If a round leaves the range the club will be instantly shut down and never open again.

Paper targets only because the RO's don't want to clean up the mess left by a**hats who want to shoot all kinds of garbage and then leave their mess behind.

The no human targets rule is just PC bull crap.

One good rule should be mentioned: There is no rapid fire rule per se. The rule is that each shooter MUST keep their rounds on target. If a shooter must rest a minute between shots to accomplish that, fine, but if he can put 6 rounds into the target in a second or less - that's fine, too.

Warp
October 8, 2012, 02:39 AM
Rifles may only be shot from a seated position. (Due to clowns with AR's/AK's/SKS's playing Call of Duty and dumping their magazines down range and having little or no control or care over where they actually go.)



...but prone is even more accurate/has even more control than seated

Kurt_D
October 8, 2012, 02:41 AM
Our's isn't too bad, being owned by LDWF. The only one that really p-ed me off was no FMJ when the range first reopened. Once word go out and with a little griping (a call or two may have been placed to our local state Reps) the rule was removed.

Printed "no" rules are:
1) no .50 BMG -waste anyway at 100yds
2) no tracer - fire hazard, lots of woods and now dry grass
3) no full auto - I don't like it but I understand why: wanting to keep rounds off the traget frames and into the berm and not worrying about if the NFA weapon is legit
4) no rapid fire - I don't agree with but again I understand why. Honestly they have been very good about it and not griping about double taps, etc as long as they are on paper, don't hit the frame and are into the berm. If you bump off a dozen or so they will ask you to stop though.
5) no frames under 25yds on the 100yds range, even if shooting pistols - this is from them getting burned by bullets skipping over the berm and causing them to have to rebuild. Good thing is they added a 50yd pistol range and added extra benchs, racks, etc.

Kurt_D
October 8, 2012, 02:51 AM
...but prone is even more accurate/has even more control than seated
Ours isn't so much the video game clowns but when they tried shooting prone after the range first reopened, it put the rounds at an upward angle and close to the top of the berm. This is despite the shooting platform being 4-5ft higher than the target area.

After having just been rebuilt due to rounds topping the berm, I can see the reason for this unwriten rule at our range. Now standing and sitting are ok. Kneeling depends, its probably ok if there are low enough stands available.

riceboy72
October 8, 2012, 02:57 AM
Sounds like you go to TSC on Canyon, Leadcounsel. Yes?

Certaindeaf
October 8, 2012, 04:14 AM
And we wonder why the youngun's go all nintendo/paintball/airsoft. ug

Twiki357
October 8, 2012, 04:18 AM
I don't know if I would call it a dumb rule, but the range that I go to has three separate sections. One for pistol only, one for rifle only, and one for 22 only. I can understand the 22 only so that a 22 shooter doesn't have a 44 mag or 300 win blasting away next to him. But the separate rifle and pistol sections are a nuisance since I usually shoot both. And it's not the distance because they are both only 100 yard ranges... Go figure.

Oh, actually, they do have a seemingly dumb rule. Only one paper target on the stand, which is large enough to hold 6 standard 10.5 x 12 pistol targets. But it's really not that dumb by their reasoning; It keeps the hits more centered so the frames don't get shot up as much.

peyton
October 8, 2012, 04:27 AM
Leadcounsel, come on over to Camp Salerno, Afghanistan. The 3/101 "Rakkasans" need your expert legal advise and I guarantee the target rich environment! Plus the range is unlimited and the targets shoot back!! I been deployed for 7 years now.

Certaindeaf
October 8, 2012, 04:29 AM
Once, a rangekeeper bonked his head while going for my empty beer can before it hit the ground (it was a windy day). true story

gfanikf
October 8, 2012, 08:22 AM
the no human form thing is a politically correct racial issue.my brass is my brass.have them arrested for petty theft.police training mostly uses blue Silhouette targets because somebody complained that it was training them to shoot blacks.so now everything is gender neutral
Eh I think it also is to prevent people from using a pic of someone they're pissed at, be it political or spousal.

buck460XVR
October 8, 2012, 08:23 AM
Their range, their rules, don't like it? Attend the membership meetings, try to get elected into a position, or move on.

What has been done here has done nothing or changed anything.


This ^^^. You go to someone's house, you follow their rules. Pretty simple. You don't like the rules, you don't go there. Whether they make sense to you or not has nuttin' to do with it. As jcwit said in later posts, without knowing the patrons, the range or previous problems the range has encountered, it's hard to support or criticize their rules. Open your own range and I'm sure someone will whine about your rules too.

parsimonious_instead
October 8, 2012, 09:04 AM
What did OP's post accomplish? Well, probably helped blow off some steam. Hey, we all need to rant every now and then, whether it accomplishes anything or not.
Here are some random thoughts:

Explaining rules increases compliance, imho. If a range is going to heavily restrict what people can or can't do, then they should explain why.
Certain things are understandable - "no headshots" rules make a certain amount of sense if the targets are suspended and the hanging system might be harmed by shots that go too high.
Here's an idea about the whole "human face" situation - I took a tactical class in which the instructor had custom made targets with a simple black rectangular black box around what he called the "ICOC" - intra cranial ocular cavity. The premise is that this is the part of the head where quickly stopping the assailant is most likely.
Here are my questions:

Are "bowling pin" shaped targets (vaguely humanoid) prohibited, too, or are they different enough to pass muster?

At ranges that disallow brass pick-up, how do the ROs handle cleanup? Do range staff pick up the shells, or do shooters that are merely being courteous about cleaning up after themselves risk being accused of theft?

CajunBass
October 8, 2012, 09:17 AM
Their range, their rules, don't like it? Attend the membership meetings, try to get elected into a position, or move on.

This about sums it up, IMHO.

You better believe if I started a range, I'd make the rules. You don't have to like them, you don't think they have to make sense, but you do have to obey them. Or you can mosey along. Your choice.

Carl N. Brown
October 8, 2012, 09:53 AM
Local club shooting ranges are outdoors.

When training classes for handgun carry permit (certification of eligibility to apply) shoot for qualification at the local range, police style human outline targets are required.

Some standard rules:

No full auto or simulated full auto.

No NFA firearms.

On the lower range, rounds cannot impact the ground before the 25 yard line, paper targets only: no clay pigeon targets on the lower range.

No .50 cal BMG on the lower range (there are buried pneumatic lines to the metallic shillouette targets).

No shotguns on the lower range (except during the club sponsored turkey shoots and then the wad littering the lawn is unsightly for a while; I think they clean it up).

Upper range has fewer rules, but you bring your own target stands and pick up after yourself. Guess where I usually shoot?

Pete D.
October 8, 2012, 10:38 AM
At the PA Game Commission range where I shoot, there is a six round limit for pistol shooters. There is a five round limit for rifles. No shotshells allowed. Slugs are OK. Paper targets only. Clean up your paper. Clean up your brass.
Personally, I have no problem with the rules. I have no need to load more than five rounds into any rifle that I shoot or six into any pistol or revolver.
Rapid fire - there is no posted restriction about time - for me means five rounds in ten seconds. Other people shoot faster...hit less, at least where I am. You fellas may be better shots.
The problem that I have is not so much with the range rules but with people who don't read them.
Pete

GEM
October 8, 2012, 01:06 PM
Some rampage shooters have gone to ranges to practice. The club might not want to have to deal with that PR when some nut is found to have been shooting up realistic targets to practice his massacre.

There are realistic training targets. Shooting Osama and Zombies might be an indication of immaturity. But the realistic targets should be allowed. So get on the board and argue for realistic training targets and not the kiddie ones.

Certaindeaf
October 8, 2012, 01:16 PM
Some rampage shooters have gone to ranges to practice..
True. That guy they just extradited from England (I think) is thought to be the alleged leader/"mastermind" of some kooks found practicing at a gravel pit here in Oregon. They got life.

Sam1911
October 8, 2012, 01:50 PM
At the PA Game Commission range where I shoot, there is a six round limit for pistol shooters. There is a five round limit for rifles. No shotshells allowed. Slugs are OK. Paper targets only. Clean up your paper. Clean up your brass.
Personally, I have no problem with the rules. I have no need to load more than five rounds into any rifle that I shoot or six into any pistol or revolver.
Rapid fire - there is no posted restriction about time - for me means five rounds in ten seconds. Other people shoot faster...hit less, at least where I am. You fellas may be better shots.
The problem that I have is not so much with the range rules but with people who don't read them.
Pete
Ahhh, the good ol' PA Game Commission ranges.

While most would consider their rules absurdly restrictive, as odd as it is to say so, they almost make sense if you watch the kind of stuff that often goes on there. Kind of like gun pre-kindergarten when the teacher's stepped out of the room!

Fortunately, PA is blessed with an amazing assortment of shooting clubs of many different kinds. Almost certainly there is one within driving distance of wherever you are which specializes in whatever kind of shooting you want to do, and has rules suitable to that discipline.

Saturday I spent the morning at one club shooting a Garand-only CMP match where "rapid fire" consists of 10 rounds fired in 70 seconds.

Sunday I ran my club's monthly IDPA match where shooters were expected to put accurate hits on target several rounds per second, while moving.

Different strokes for different folks! (And sometimes for the same folks, too! :))

It is needlessly frustrating to try and practice a skill set at a range not designed for that kind of practice and/or where it is discouraged.

Greybeard
October 8, 2012, 02:05 PM
Quote: "Certain things are understandable - "no headshots" rules make a certain amount of sense if the targets are suspended and the hanging system might be harmed by shots that go too high."

Our little association range has never had such a rule, nor a 2-seconds between shots policy. But, admittedly, it resulted in more damage to the target carriers than I care to think about. For 16 years, I fixed things for free, rationalizing "just a part of what people pay for with their annual memberships".

But, that was changed a few months ago with a letter to all of the members, notification on our web site and new signage on the firing line: "Shoot target carrier string: $75. Shoot steel cable: $175. Please don't."

dodge
October 8, 2012, 06:05 PM
At my range we had to modify the rules due to some people coming in before 7:00 a.m. and just shooting their ARs/AKs as fast as they could pull the trigger. Then they also shot up the target frames. We now ban the mag dumps and no shooting before 8:00 a.m. This range is located right on the boro limits in matter of fact we have a 99 year lease to the property from the boro. We also had to ban the larger calibers (i.e. 50 BMG and 416 Barrett) and the use of tannerite. We don't have any problems with double taps just people doing the 30 round mag dump. Just keep in mind that all it takes is a few bad apples to ruin it for everybody. When we reset the rules it was talked of putting a time limit between shots but I was able to keep that from happening. I must add that we only allow paper targets due to the fact of the junk (car parts, paint cans, plastic bottles, etc.)that has been left there by uncaring individuals

Black Butte
October 8, 2012, 06:11 PM
My range doesn't allow double-taps. You can only shoot paper and must wait a second between shoots. It's frustrating, but the next closest range is a significant distance away and charges $20 per shooter per hour. At least at the first range, I can stay a few hours for my 20 bucks.

captain awesome
October 8, 2012, 07:31 PM
the range I am (but soon won't be any longer) a member of has a some dumb rules. One in particular really pisses me off. Scenario;
I am walking into the range with my hands FULL. Carrying a bolt action rifle with a box mag in one hand by itself because I don't have a case it fits in. The bolt is open, it is obviously empty. One range officer physically blocked my entrance and told me I have to remove the magazine immediately, and made a bid deal out f the fact that I had it pointed straight up?!? There was no where to set my stuff down and no where to put the magazine. What difference does it make? What if it didn't have a removable magazine? Many rifles don't. That was just the last straw. I had to set it all down in the dirt, to appease that clown. There are a lot of less highroad words that I have called him, he has always been a pain in the butt; getting into peoples business and touching fire arms without permission. Most of them there seem to have that attitude, but he is the worst. They have always treated me like I am some kind of dangerous trouble maker, I assume because I am younger than most there, and it is insulting. I follow all their rules without question, just like everyone else. Every time I bring a new shooter there they leave with a bad taste in their mouth. I won't be renewing my membership there.

jmr40
October 8, 2012, 08:35 PM
Anytime you see a stupid rule you can bet there is a reason for it. Somebody, at some time did something stupid and they had to make up a special rule to cover it.

It may have been something that happened so long ago that no one can any longer remember why, but once written, rules are hard to change.

I'm fortunate. The range where I shoot has some pretty common sense rules. In fact it wouldn't hurt for things to be a little more strict. It is unmonitored. We police ourselves and have very few problems.

happygeek
October 8, 2012, 08:41 PM
Explaining rules increases compliance, imho. If a range is going to heavily restrict what people can or can't do, then they should explain why.
Certain things are understandable - "no headshots" rules make a certain amount of sense if the targets are suspended and the hanging system might be harmed by shots that go too high.
Here's an idea about the whole "human face" situation - I took a tactical class in which the instructor had custom made targets with a simple black rectangular black box around what he called the "ICOC" - intra cranial ocular cavity. The premise is that this is the part of the head where quickly stopping the assailant is most likely.
Here are my questions:

Are "bowling pin" shaped targets (vaguely humanoid) prohibited, too, or are they different enough to pass muster?


I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about the Paul Bunyan Sportsman Club in western WA. I seem to recall when I first joined there that the reason they specified 8 rounds was due to the M1. Presumably they would have set the limit lower if not for the M1's en bloc clip size, and the M1 was on their minds when they set the rules since they run CMP matches on a regular basis.

I'm sure the no rapid fire rule is due to idiots shooting completely over the targets. They put up baffles on their pistol range and the scary thing is the there are numerous holes in said baffles. They have a pretty big hill as a backstop, but if someone shoots high enough to hit their baffle then they're just about shooting high enough to clear the berm and hill ... and there's no impact area at Paul Bunyan like there is at Fort Lewis or YTC.

They've had an issue with idiots shooting things like Dracos on the pistol range because ... well, I guess because it's legally a pistol and some people don't stop to think. They don't allow .50 BMG for obvious reasons, ditto for tracer rounds. I've seen a good number of brush fires started by tracers at YTC, I don't fault them one bit for that rule.

I do wish they'd make an exception to their '1 round per second' rule for 22LRs, but that's really my only complaint. They only charge $90 a year for unlimited access from I think 09:00 - 22:00 7 days a week, and they have lighting so you can shoot after dark during the winter months here in WA.

They don't allow facial features but they have zero issue with blank silhouettes, Appleseed style targets, Army Alt C Qual targets, etc. They allow rifle shooting from positions, they allow 22LR rifle shooting on the pistol range, their booths on the pistol range are set up so you can open up the front and shoot prone out of them, it's a very nice range at a price you can't beat with a stick. I'm too busy being grateful they haven't sold the land to a developer to complain about their 8 round rule.

gfanikf
October 8, 2012, 09:25 PM
Anytime you see a stupid rule you can bet there is a reason for it. Somebody, at some time did something stupid and they had to make up a special rule to cover it.

It may have been something that happened so long ago that no one can any longer remember why, but once written, rules are hard to change.

I'm fortunate. The range where I shoot has some pretty common sense rules. In fact it wouldn't hurt for things to be a little more strict. It is unmonitored. We police ourselves and have very few problems.
Reminds me about a rule that popped up at my range one day. I would always joke about them having to deal with someone claiming slide fire wasn't rapid fire. Sure enough one day I randomly see a new sign up saying no bump or slide fire stocks. I asked if it finally had happened...to which they said it did.

checkmyswag
October 8, 2012, 10:19 PM
This thread makes me want to go out and appreciate my range. Appreciate via the shooting method.

moto_stevo
October 9, 2012, 12:22 AM
How about a range that won't let you shoot pistol any closer than 20 yards..... Right against the berm

splithoof
October 9, 2012, 12:38 AM
The range I frequent most often requires members to have a valid USFS campfire permit for fires when camping. Because the ground is very hard and rocky, shoes are recommended. Most members wear clothing in the summer to avoid sunburn, and must when using the club benchrests. Tannerite is prohibited, but full-auto, SBR's, and suppressors are all OK with proper paperwork. Alcohol is not permitted in any shooting areas. Your brass is your own, and you may scrounge as much as you can find. The facility is open 24-7, but you must supply your own lighting, etc. The 1,000 yard pad is to be reserved ahead of time, but the 600 yard range is open unless a club scheduled event is planned. There are some nice concrete benches under a metal roof, and an area for whatever else position you wish to assume. Some other range areas for practical, black powder, pistol, archery, etc.

Warp
October 9, 2012, 12:39 AM
The range I frequent most often requires members to have a valid USFS campfire permit for fires when camping. Because the ground is very hard and rocky, shoes are recommended. Most members wear clothing in the summer to avoid sunburn, and must when using the club benchrests. Tannerite is prohibited, but full-auto, SBR's, and suppressors are all OK with proper paperwork. Alcohol is not permitted in any shooting areas. Your brass is your own, and you may scrounge as much as you can find. The facility is open 24-7, but you must supply your own lighting, etc. The 1,000 yard pad is to be reserved ahead of time, but the 600 yard range is open unless a club scheduled event is planned. There are some nice concrete benches under a metal roof, and an area for whatever else position you wish to assume. Some other range areas for practical, black powder, pistol, archery, etc.

Why can't I have one of these nearby? :(

leadcounsel
October 9, 2012, 02:31 AM
At Peyton
Leadcounsel, come on over to Camp Salerno, Afghanistan. The 3/101 "Rakkasans" need your expert legal advise and I guarantee the target rich environment! Plus the range is unlimited and the targets shoot back!! I been deployed for 7 years now.

I believe we spent the day together at our 3/101 HQ in Iraq back in 08... :) Can't believe you've been deployed for 7 years! Stay safe!

As far as rules, I'm a rule-follower. However, rules for the sake of rules at the cost of common sense just drives me nuts!

warhwkbb
October 9, 2012, 03:44 AM
Leadcounsel,
I'm also a member at the Paul Bunyan range in Puyallup. During the orientation by "Bubba the groundskeeper", it was explained that the city demanded the 8 shot limit as part of their lease; yet later he said they owned the land outright:confused:

These rules don't bother me so much on the rifle range, but they really cut into the quality of defensive pistol practice.

BTW Leadcounsel, thanks for showing me the range. I really appreciated test driving a range before joining. I wish I could have done that with Black Diamond before forking over $240.

Pete D.
October 9, 2012, 08:06 AM
Sam:
While most would consider their rules absurdly restrictive, as odd as it is to say so, they almost make sense if you watch the kind of stuff that often goes on there. Kind of like gun pre-kindergarten when the teacher's stepped out of the room!

Fortunately, PA is blessed with an amazing assortment of shooting clubs of many different kinds. Almost certainly there is one within driving distance of wherever you are which specializes in whatever kind of shooting you want to do, and has rules suitable to that discipline.

The Game Commission range is a mile from my house as the crow flies. Very convenient to say the least. That is an astute comment about the teacher stepping out of the room. Interestingly, the PGC has stepped up enforcement of its policies recently. Two of the last four times that I have been shooting there, a team of officers has shown up to check on shooters.
I am, also, a member at North Mt. Sportsman's Club near Hughesville...a marvelous facility and much more cared for and about than the local range.

Pete

parsimonious_instead
October 9, 2012, 08:15 AM
Sam:


The Game Commission range is a mile from my house as the crow flies. Very convenient to say the least. That is an astute comment about the teacher stepping out of the room. Interestingly, the PGC has stepped up enforcement of its policies recently. Two of the last four times that I have been shooting there, a team of officers has shown up to check on shooters.
I am, also, a member at North Mt. Sportsman's Club near Hughesville...a marvelous facility and much more cared for and about than the local range.

Pete

It's my understanding that the PA State-run ranges limit rounds loaded to (hopefully) help extend the life of the target backers that they provide.
They've recently required an annual "shooting pass" to be able to use these facilities. Supposedly even this small fee has given the PA Game Commission the revenue to improve range maintenance and has deterred at least some of the riff-raff.

Trent
October 9, 2012, 09:44 AM
If you use a bolt action the action must be worked upside down to "keep people from shooting past the backstop"

This one has me scratching my head. You're supposed to turn the rifle over and work the bolt upside down somehow? How the hell does THAT work?

340PD
October 9, 2012, 10:01 AM
I am an RSO/instructor at a state of the art indoor range co-owned by four different police departments. Classrooms, free cleaning supplies, coffee in the lobby. We are open to the public on a limited basis. We do employ some rules that may not seen to make sense to a lot of people. No silhouette targets are among them. Mostly this is because we must avoid ceiling or floor hits. Tall targets change angles and we do not want to lose our shooting privileges because of unnecessary damage to a police range. Keeping the target parallel to the floor has really helped. A great side benefit to this rule is a very well mannered clientele. Lot's of couples, groups of women, and family's with new shooter kids. The place has become similar to a Friday night bowling alley without the beer. You want to save your brass? We will make sure you leave with more than you came in with. Most of our RSO's lend our customers our own personal guns if the customer wants to try one out. Many times I have seen a customer bring a locked gun with the key left at home and a RSO will hand them a gun to shoot to avoid a drive home for a key. Everyone leaves in a good mood. Easily, the best job I have ever had.

jmorris
October 9, 2012, 10:12 AM
My range has some stupid range rules. I can livewith them, but they are just dumb.

First, the dumbest. Silhouette targets cannot have ANY human features.... I was spoken to yesterday for taking large paper and drawing with a marker literally a silhouetted that had eyes and a mouth. I was told not to do that. Are you kidding me!?
Kidding you for being told to follow the owners rules? You said yourself "ANY human features" then you ignore them and draw eyes and mouth on your target.? If you don't like their rules play somewhere else but please don't tell the owner of a private business what rules he can have on his property.

Ryanxia
October 9, 2012, 12:18 PM
Aside from the safety rules and don't destroy the posts that they put free backboards on for us, my range doesn't have any. I wouldn't be a part of any of those stupid rules. Just my opinion.

SSN Vet
October 9, 2012, 12:45 PM
The Rod & Gun club I belong to put an RFID card activated gate in last year. All members had to pony up $10 as a one time fee for a photo i.d. RFID card.

They had a combo lock on the gate b4. And though they changed the combo every year, I suspect that a lot of members freely gave it out to their friends.

Now they have a record of who's card was used to swipe in and out, with a time record for each use. Can't tell if there's been fewer instances of foolish damage to the facilites or not.... but in general the idea was well received and the gate cards work slick as buttah.

I love this club.... never crowded... every one is courtious and friendly... facilities are safe... brass buckets are first come first serve... DIY range master system...

The few rules we do have make good sense and are there for a bonified safety purpose....

Only paper targets mounted on the fixed target boards (prevents ricochets and keeps shots hitting the burms). Yeah, I'd like to plug some bowling pins, but there's a condo complex next door and this restriction keeps all lead on the range.

No full auto. (doesn't affect me)

No gun handling of any kind during cease fires.

ErikO
October 9, 2012, 02:55 PM
Thankfully the worst I have to deal with is that at the indoor range I tend to go to they max out rifles at 5.56. Not such a big deal, but now they have a Deagle with an 8" barrel on the rental wall. I make the point that 300BLK out of a 10.5" barrel has a much lower impact on the backstop than that hand cannon.

Nothing but crickets...

At least they don't sell 7.62-rated suppressors or I'd be really scratching my head. ;)

Skribs
October 9, 2012, 04:49 PM
Oh I'm definitely waiting anxiously until I can afford to set up my own private range. Currently I have an indoor range nearby that lets me do whatever I want, as long as it's safe, in my lane, and the rounds are going <2000 FPS, and several outdoor ranges that have stupid rate-of-fire limits. I want to be able to shoot how I plan to in a defensive situation, without worry about other people on the range.

Esoxchaser
October 9, 2012, 06:46 PM
My 12 yr old son has literally 10's of thousands of rounds of handgun, long gun and shotgun under his belt. He has also been hunting since he was 9. The kid is exceptionally cognizant of not only his actions, but the actions of those around him. He is safer than most adults, and is welcomed by all my friends to hunt over their dogs. Yet we have a range nearby that won't let him shoot because they have a "must be 16 yrs old" rule. Which in particularly stupid given that one can hunt well before that.

Skribs
October 9, 2012, 06:50 PM
My 12 yr old son has literally 10's of thousands of rounds of handgun, long gun and shotgun under his belt. He has also been hunting since he was 9. The kid is exceptionally cognizant of not only his actions, but the actions of those around him. He is safer than most adults, and is welcomed by all my friends to hunt over their dogs. Yet we have a range nearby that won't let him shoot because they have a "must be 16 yrs old" rule. Which in particularly stupid given that one can hunt well before that.

That's one thing that's awesome about one of my local ranges. Kids shoot free.

Warp
October 9, 2012, 08:52 PM
Take the kid to an Appleseed. :)

-eaux-
October 9, 2012, 11:18 PM
Thankfully I was born and raised in God's country, where my shooting range refers to my back yard and/or how far I can see. And I make the rules. There are only five: THE FOUR RULES, and the fifth rule... I make the rules. ;)

JRWhit
October 10, 2012, 07:28 AM
I earlier referred to a lax rule facility, or my own dirt berm at the house, but after reading along here, I do kind of realize a specific place for the restrictive nature of the public range. Our conservation department has a shooting complex that has all of the fire rate rules, target rules, and so forth.
But, If I have a new rifle or an old one with a new scope, It's hands down the best place to sight in. Each booth has a spotting scope, and various styles of bench rest. There is little worry for cross wind as there is dirt barrier all the way around. Range goes out too 100 yds. And it usually costs me about $6

beatledog7
October 10, 2012, 11:02 AM
Does anyone else see patterns emerging here? There are exceptions, but:

1) Ranges with loose or non-existent membership restrictions generally have either very lax rules or very rigid rules. The rarely fall into the middle.

2) Ranges with moderate membership restrictions tend to have moderate rule sets.

3) Ranges with exclusive membership tend to have fewer and very well-reasoned rules.

jmr40 noted that in any environment rules get made to pay lip service to precluding recurrence of some idiotic behavior (I have paraphrased), and that is certainly true. But a few have been mentioned here that just make no sense at all to me: bolt actions upside down and one elbow on the bench come to mind.

Best I can figure:

1) Ranges who let pretty much anyone who has money shoot there either think they need tight rules (probably because they carry insurance that forces such rule sets upon them) or think rules are for sissies (and somehow get by without carrying insurance). Both extremes can make for a very unpleasant experience.

2) Ranges who are a bit more choosy about which shooters they'll allow on the range -- or at least ensure the shooters understand basic safety -- have sorted out a set of rules that make sense to most shooters who shoot there because these shooters have demonstrated a rational understanding of safety; they don't get hit with silly, arbitrary "safety" rules because they are safe without them. These ranges are often the ones with the most onerous "profit enhancement" rules.

3) Ranges with relatively exclusive membership know their membership, and in some cases have been very selective. Everyone who's coming there to shoot is independently safe and is capable of and bound to watch each other's backs. These ranges almost never suffer idiotic behavior because the membership won't tolerate it. Such ranges still have rules, but they are not arbitrary and they are most often arrived at by consensus.

Of course, rules set to appease politicians (no humanoid targets, etc.) may reach across membership-restriction boundaries.

But a few "rules" seem absent at the ranges that control membership: shoot only our ammo; we steal your brass, no rapid fire...people who join more exclusive "clubs" won't go for that sort of crap.

Skribs
October 10, 2012, 01:37 PM
Not necessarily, Beatledog. My local range, Bullseye, was under extreme scrutiny for the DC sniper stealing a gun from them, so much so they actually had to separate the store and the range. However, their rules are very basic, essentially wear ear and eye pro, stay in your lane, and specific rules on equipment (such as no rifle cartridges or birdshot). They make any new shooters take a five minute safety lecture, and that's that.

You'd think that a range under this much pressure would have very strict rules, but they don't.

CoRoMo
October 11, 2012, 06:48 PM
1) no .50 BMG
Our club banned those from the indoor pistol lanes. :banghead: What are a bunch of anti-2A twerps running a gun club for!!

;)

Skribs
October 11, 2012, 07:45 PM
Our club banned those from the indoor pistol lanes. What are a bunch of anti-2A twerps running a gun club for!!

Really bizarre, but my local indoor range (which bans rounds over 2000 FPS) actually sells .50 BMG rounds. You just can't use em.

PavePusher
October 13, 2012, 03:09 AM
splithoof wrote: Most members wear clothing in the summer to avoid sunburn, and must when using the club benchrests.

Damn, it sounded like a fun place until you got to the restrictive part there...

CZguy
October 13, 2012, 11:25 PM
Damn, it sounded like a fun place until you got to the restrictive part there...

Actually, if the people there look like my club, I'd rather they were fully dressed.

evan price
October 15, 2012, 06:29 AM
The ODNR runs supervised gun ranges here in Ohio and I have the good fortune to live real close to one.

The rules are pretty simple- No rapid fire but up to 3 round bursts are OK as long as you are on target. No mag dumps. No full auto. Paper targets only. No tracers (Had a couple fires from idiots sneaking them in). Have to buy a range pass, and an annual is $24 for unlimited use or $5 for a daily. Take as much brass as is left behind.

The RO of my range is a little less strict on regulars, he's got an unwritten rule that rapid fire is OK if you can prove to him you are in control. Standard test when people whine about mag dumps is he puts a standard NRA target at 100 yards and says if they put all 30 rounds on paper they can shoot as fast as they want. If they miss, they get ejected for the year. Been years, and nobody has taken him on that.

Rules are necessary, there's a lot of idiots out there. They tend to fill the benches quickly during busy season and then it's get in line and wait. One fella was so angry that he actually had to wait for a bench on a busy Saturday morning that he took his AK and started shooting at the clay pigeons on the ground in the skeet range. That got him a trip to jail.

I like shooting, I like my range, and if some ****** starts flying lead over the berm and people shut the range down I am gonna be torqued off. We already had one good range closed permanantly because of rounds overtopping the berm and hitting the Battelle research center.

45_auto
October 15, 2012, 09:19 AM
he took his AK and started shooting at the clay pigeons on the ground in the skeet range. That got him a trip to jail.

What did they charge him with?

jcwit
October 15, 2012, 09:55 AM
The ODNR runs supervised gun ranges here in Ohio and I have the good fortune to live real close to one.

The rules are pretty simple- No rapid fire but up to 3 round bursts are OK as long as you are on target. No mag dumps. No full auto. Paper targets only. No tracers (Had a couple fires from idiots sneaking them in). Have to buy a range pass, and an annual is $24 for unlimited use or $5 for a daily. Take as much brass as is left behind.

The RO of my range is a little less strict on regulars, he's got an unwritten rule that rapid fire is OK if you can prove to him you are in control. Standard test when people whine about mag dumps is he puts a standard NRA target at 100 yards and says if they put all 30 rounds on paper they can shoot as fast as they want. If they miss, they get ejected for the year. Been years, and nobody has taken him on that.

Rules are necessary, there's a lot of idiots out there. They tend to fill the benches quickly during busy season and then it's get in line and wait. One fella was so angry that he actually had to wait for a bench on a busy Saturday morning that he took his AK and started shooting at the clay pigeons on the ground in the skeet range. That got him a trip to jail.

I like shooting, I like my range, and if some ****** starts flying lead over the berm and people shut the range down I am gonna be torqued off. We already had one good range closed permanantly because of rounds overtopping the berm and hitting the Battelle research center.


Sounds like a good range with very reasonable rules.

plateshooter
October 17, 2012, 08:16 AM
"3) Ranges with relatively exclusive membership know their membership, and in some cases have been very selective. Everyone who's coming there to shoot is independently safe and is capable of and bound to watch each other's backs. These ranges almost never suffer idiotic behavior because the membership won't tolerate it. Such ranges still have rules, but they are not arbitrary and they are most often arrived at by consensus."

The above quote defines the ranges or clubs that I belong to. Our rules are voted on by the members and are enforced by the members. If a member does not like the rules, he can bring it up at a meeting. If there is enough interest by the members to change it, a vote will be taken.

We don't allow full auto or anything that sounds like full auto. No 50 cal or tracers. This is done out of respect for the neighboring homes churchs and farms in the area. We don't need any wanna be Rambo shooting over the berms while trying to bump fire his WASR 10.

We have a waiting list of people who would like to join our club. We have reached our cap for our number of members. and get calls almost every day inquiring about membership. Seems people like the rules we have that provide for a safe, and fun place to shoot.

My suggestion to those who don't like the rules at a particular place, is to find another range, or buy some land, buy some insurance, open your own range, and make your own rules.

ilbob
October 17, 2012, 08:22 AM
Wow. a range that wont let you pick up your own brass?

Don't be so sure this is about it being about money. There is a theory that some range consultants have come up with that suggests the brass is a hazardous substance due to the lead residue and that thus the range is responsible to see it is disposed of properly. The shooter is not likely to be licensed to handle hazardous materials.

Other range consultants claim the brass belongs to the shooter until it is abandoned and at that point becomes the responsibility of the range and thus allowing someone else to pick it up would be inappropriate.

Its a convoluted situation.

YFM700
October 17, 2012, 11:56 AM
I guess the range/club 1 mile from my house is number 3. Although I'm not sure how "exclusive" it is. It has common sense safety rules, and no shooting steel, but other than that it's all good. I would never actually PAY money to shoot at some of the places described above with range nazis and target/ammo/brass rules.

evan price
October 18, 2012, 06:19 AM
What did they charge him with?

4M disorderly conduct, as I recall. Up to 30 days in county lockup.

Nuclear
October 18, 2012, 06:28 AM
The closest outdoor range has a couple of what I consider strange rules. The first is no tracer ammo. It is in the middle of the desert, no vegetation back of the berm (just a small mountainside), yet no tracers. Not that I shoot at night, but tracers are cheap right now (probably because you can't shoot them most places). The second odd rule is that you can't pick up brass off the concrete shooting positions when the range is cold, only when it is hot.

Aaron1100us
October 18, 2012, 07:40 AM
Love the range I go to. No dumb rules, no one monitors it, you can shoot whatever you want. People even bring appliances out there to shoot.

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hardheart
October 18, 2012, 11:18 AM
RO told me not to shoot 357 out of my 3" barrel because it would cut his steel target frames. I did not know my soft points were so formidable.

David E
October 18, 2012, 12:41 PM
. There is a theory that some range consultants have come up with that suggests the brass is a hazardous substance due to the lead residue...The shooter is not likely to be licensed to handle hazardous materials.

No, but it's ok to buy lead bullets in bulk and handle each one barehanded, but the "lead residue" inside the brass is more hazardous?

Its a convoluted situation.

No, it's utterly nonsensical.

SpentCasing
October 18, 2012, 06:50 PM
A certain indoor range by me I choose not to go to due to some of these gems.

No "headshots" :scrutiny:

Any rifle will be shot using only 1 round in the gun at a time. My G18 mag and my buddy's Saiga 12 with a drum is good to go though.:banghead:

All staff shall be condescending to any and all patrons. :cuss:

-So I must drive twice the distance (20mi each way) to go to a proper indoor range with courteous staff and all the way to Amish country for a proper rifle range. Not sure why youd want to shoot a rifle at an indoor range anyways.

David E
October 18, 2012, 07:05 PM
No "headshots" :scrutiny:


I think the reason for that is they've had too many hits on the target carriers.

Put the target 10 yds down range, sit down or kneel and the angle of fire will hit something besides the backstop.

And/or, people can't hit much, so intended headshots go high, hitting the target carrier...

No clue about their other rules.

Warp
October 18, 2012, 09:34 PM
I think the reason for that is they've had too many hits on the target carriers.


I doubt it.

I've been to ranges that had that rule too. One was in Illinois. :rolleyes: They were extremely serious about it, to the tune of being immediately kicked out if you shot anything in the head. The basic silhouettes they sold didn't have heads, even. And you couldn't have anything that looked like a person, either, of course. "not even zombie targets'

Wouldn't want to be shooting and killing people, you know.

Ignition Override
October 18, 2012, 09:49 PM
If you own the brass, they can not take away your private property.

HEAVY METAL 1
October 18, 2012, 10:48 PM
The range I used to shoot at had the 'no human sillouhette' rule, yet when the cops shot there they could use them! Also 'no more than 1 round at a time in the gun'.

David E
October 19, 2012, 01:54 AM
I doubt it.

I've been to ranges that had that rule too. One was in Illinois. :rolleyes: They were extremely serious about it, to the tune of being immediately kicked out if you shot anything in the head.

That's another possibility!

Warp
October 19, 2012, 02:14 AM
That's another possibility!

What is?

David E
October 19, 2012, 10:36 AM
What is?

That they being WAAAAY "politically correct"

Seems to me, if they sold the exact same target as used by the PD, FBI, etc, it'd be an easy explanation to any anti-gun pantywaist who was offended by human silhouette targets.

"Those? They're the same target the FBI uses."

Of course, that's if they cared one whit about what an anti-gun pantywaist thinks.

Warp
October 19, 2012, 04:02 PM
That they being WAAAAY "politically correct"

Seems to me, if they sold the exact same target as used by the PD, FBI, etc, it'd be an easy explanation to any anti-gun pantywaist who was offended by human silhouette targets.

"Those? They're the same target the FBI uses."

Of course, that's if they cared one whit about what an anti-gun pantywaist thinks.

That would seem to be a pretty good action and response.

But this was Illinois. They just don't take kindly to firearms up there. :(

They wouldn't even let me touch any of their guns in the shop, either, because I didn't have a FOID. Nevermind that I wasn't an Illinois resident, and couldn't get a FOID, or that I could actually buy one of their guns and have them ship it to my FFL here in GA. Nope. Couldn't lay a finger on anything they had.

parsimonious_instead
October 19, 2012, 05:55 PM
A certain indoor range by me I choose not to go to due to some of these gems...

-So I must drive twice the distance (20mi each way) to go to a proper indoor range with courteous staff and all the way to Amish country for a proper rifle range. Not sure why youd want to shoot a rifle at an indoor range anyways.

Shot a pistol match last night at Parkchester in the Bronx... a six-port 50 *foot* facility.
One of the guys found 8mm Mauser rifle brass, and .300 Win Mag rifle brass in the dump bucket.
We speculated that either someone just tossed out their brass they shot elsewhere, or that it was either a hunter function-checking their rifles (50ft doesn't strike me as a good sighting-in distance ahead of a hunt), or in the case of the .300 Win Mag, perhaps an NYPD ESU sharpshooter function checking their rifle.

SpentCasing
October 20, 2012, 08:22 PM
Wouldnt dry firing accomplish the same thing then? Still doesnt make sense to me.

Warp
October 20, 2012, 10:05 PM
Wouldnt dry firing accomplish the same thing then? Still doesnt make sense to me.

A function check? Not exactly, no

tigeroldlone
October 20, 2012, 11:54 PM
The only range we have close is held by the State Conservation Department,no human silhouetts alowed. Otherwise they are great.

MilsurpShooter
October 21, 2012, 09:31 PM
Hmm, let's see

1 round at a time
nothing but the NRA high power targets allowed
no .50 caliber

To be honest though, it's a county run range in a almost violently anti-gun state, can't blame'em for trying to cover all the bases.

mopar92
October 22, 2012, 07:52 AM
Ever go to a public " shoot at own risk" rules? I've been to a few ranges that had no rules. That's not too much fun when the guy hands out his toys and his buddies who don't know guns are muzzle sweeping me. I went to one in Johnson City , Tn in the 90's and some Bucky had an ND into his truck dash. Pretty wild.

saitek
October 22, 2012, 10:39 AM
i went to one public range in princeton and that was the last time ,wanted to go down range to set up the target i had every body's eye contact ,verbal consent ,all wepons down and safe ,walked half way down and boom ! some flake let's one loose . thought i had to do as my ole man had to do in vietnam ,find out how thick his button's were .:eek:

Kyle M.
October 22, 2012, 10:45 AM
I shoot at a county owned and operated public range. The only rules are no full auto, and pick up after yourself. I've had alot of people give me useless and even moronic advice there, but I have yet to witness anything unsafe.

coolluke01
October 22, 2012, 11:38 AM
find out how thick his button's were

I'm not sure I get this statement. The only thing I can think of would be picking someone up by the front of the shirt.

Claude Clay
October 22, 2012, 12:14 PM
---------^--------

live fire test to find out if the button will stop a specific caliber....

done while the individual is wearing the garmet

cane
October 22, 2012, 02:20 PM
In the early days of VN, the buttons on the Marine utilities, and first generation of "jungle utilities" seemed to have thick buttons that kept you up too high in the prone position. The heavier the incoming the thicker they felt.

JRWhit
October 22, 2012, 09:29 PM
Ever go to a public " shoot at own risk" rules? I've been to a few ranges that had no rules. That's not too much fun when the guy hands out his toys and his buddies who don't know guns are muzzle sweeping me. I went to one in Johnson City , Tn in the 90's and some Bucky had an ND into his truck dash. Pretty wild.
At ours it's always been pretty safe with fairly responsible people. At least the times I've been there. There was that one time though,which I know is all it takes, that there was a guy who used one word for everything. If he wanted to check his target he'd yell out,"All Clear", and take off for his target. When he got back he'd yell out,"All Clear", and out came the lead. He never fired with anyone one down range but it still made you a little nervous when he called out cause you weren't sure what he meant and by the time you turned he was half way to his target and you sitting there with a live one in the chamber pointing down range.

CZguy
October 23, 2012, 01:32 AM
At ours it's always been pretty safe with fairly responsible people. At least the times I've been there. There was that one time though,which I know is all it takes, that there was a guy who used one word for everything. If he wanted to check his target he'd yell out,"All Clear", and take off for his target. When he got back he'd yell out,"All Clear", and out came the lead. He never fired with anyone one down range but it still made you a little nervous when he called out cause you weren't sure what he meant and by the time you turned he was half way to his target and you sitting there with a live one in the chamber pointing down range.

I've taught many young people to shoot, who started out with behavior similar to what is described above.............apparently this fellow never had anyone to teach him.

Andrew Leigh
October 23, 2012, 05:13 AM
Stupid range rules are often a function of stupid people, example.

At my range one may have only one firearm on the bench and ONLY the ammunition for that firearm.

Reason, youngster brings a Streyr .270 to the range with a pile of old ammo he inherited from grandad. Youngster loads the mag, we discover later, with an assortment of .308, 7X57 and .270, apparently unable to see the difference. First round chambered is a .270, the second a 7X57. The rifle falls apart, he is hurt and the incident requires reporting to the authorities.

Sam1911
October 23, 2012, 06:58 AM
At my range one may have only one firearm on the bench and ONLY the ammunition for that firearm.

Reason, youngster brings a Streyr .270 to the range with a pile of old ammo he inherited from grandad. Youngster loads the mag, we discover later, with an assortment of .308, 7X57 and .270, apparently unable to see the difference.

If he can't tell the difference, how is he going to successfully voluntarily follow that rule?

It's great to have a rule, but there are compelling interests which dictate that one would already want very much NOT to do that thing. If he couldn't figure it out just from a desire to save the rifle and avoid injury, perhaps a club rule isn't really going to increase his safety.

It seems like a short step from having a rule that it is a violation of club bylaws to accidentally shoot yourself in the leg. You could have 37 rules about that, or none, and my interest in not accidentally shooting myself in the leg will be no greater or less.

Sometimes adding more rules does nothing for anyone.

45_auto
October 23, 2012, 07:29 AM
Stupid range rules are often a function of stupid people, example.

At my range one may have only one firearm on the bench and ONLY the ammunition for that firearm.

Reason, youngster brings a Streyr .270 to the range with a pile of old ammo he inherited from grandad. Youngster loads the mag, we discover later, with an assortment of .308, 7X57 and .270, apparently unable to see the difference. First round chambered is a .270, the second a 7X57. The rifle falls apart, he is hurt and the incident requires reporting to the authorities.

Your range made this rule because of what the youngster did?

Your rule isn't going to prevent a repetition of the accident.

The youngster was under the impression that he had the correct ammo for his rifle. He didn't know any better.

I agree with you that stupid rules are a function of stupid people. The stupid people are the ones who made the rule thinking that it would solve the problem.

CZguy
October 23, 2012, 07:34 AM
Sometimes adding more rules does nothing for anyone.

You Sir, have obviously never worked for the government.

Andrew Leigh
October 23, 2012, 09:27 AM
Ranges here are controlled by range officers who are absolute law. Range ettiquette is very strict bordering on the militant type management style.

I think that the stupidity lays in having a rule and not enforcing it. There are many newbs on the range and enforcement of well thought out rules is a form of training.

The Range officers now do an inspection when you arrive at your bench. You will be asked to remove all calibre's save for the one you are using and the range officer will varify that your ammunition is for the calibre you want to shoot and that no other ammo is around. This is a rifle range by the way.

So gentlemen I must respectfully disagree, and unenforced rule is a bad rule. Now, when a newb get's to the bench there are a few processes that are gone through. Safety issues, the one in question etc. at this time the range officer will educate the individual if required.

Sam1911
October 23, 2012, 10:09 AM
Ah ha, see range procedures may indeed be helpful. If the range procedure is to check out each shooter and make sure they've got the right gear, ammo, and know what they're doing -- and that procedure is followed -- then that can help people a great deal.

It had seemed as if your club simply made a rule, on paper so to speak, that made it a club violation to blow your rifle up. That's redundant (no one wants to blow their rifle up in the first place) and practically useless.

The rule, in this case, is actually that each shooter will be checked out and his equipment will be deemed safe and suitable before shooting. That's different and could be very effective.

(Of course, it is also a lot of responsibility and could even present legal liabilities, at least over here, if you vet someone as good to go and they end up injured due to an oversight on your part.)

Jaxondog
October 23, 2012, 10:30 AM
I really feel sorry for those of you that have to go to a public Range and put up with some "Range Officer" that want let you pic up your own fired casing's. That is unheard of. You are all welcome to come to my house and shoot whatever, as long as it's not me or my Dog.lol

herkyguy
October 23, 2012, 01:54 PM
It's not the rules that bother me, it's range officers that interpret rules their own way. I've shot many times at a great range in Florida and had the first range officer tell us to shoot from one bench for the 500 yard line and then after we've set up, another range officer literally starts yelling at us to move farther down the line. You can make all the rules you want, just please sit down as a group and make sure the "leadership" understands them.

JRWhit
October 24, 2012, 07:48 AM
In light of the non-experienced shooters, I can't say that I would oppose a mandatory safety and comprehension class requirement for shooters before use of range. Or perhaps even a proof of hunters safety training with the obvious grandfathered acceptions. Perhaps the Range officer could have authority to deem unsafe shooters and require a training class before there return. It would stir a lot of pots but it could also cut down on a lot of stupid rules that are intended only for the noob shooter and if you are already a safe, experienced shooter it wouldn't effect you. Bottom line is, no one wants to be treated like an incompetent boob when at the range. It's insulting and unwarranted in many cases.

Andrew Leigh
October 24, 2012, 12:19 PM
Here before you can get a gun license you have to complete a Competancy Course in either; Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun.

The simple theory which includes;
1. The components of the weapon of choice, handling, safety, cleaning, range safety.
2. The law pertaining tho the use of firearm, storage etc.
3. The law regarding the carry of weapons, quantity of ammo etc.
4. Various other topics.

Unfortunately you cannot train for the idiot, they will always be off the wall.

Then you have to pass a practical examination which obviously includes handling and shooting. No can shoot, no Competancy.

When this is done then this is submitted to the Police who do a personal background check on you, a criminal check and decide if you are competent enough to own a weapon. If you beat your wife, drink excessively or have a criminal record you will not get your Competancy Certificate. Without a Competancy Certificate you will not get a gun license ... that simple. My wife was interviewed.

Once you have your Competancy then you buy your firearm (which stays at the dealer until you produce a valid license). You then submit an application with full motivation as to why you "need" that calibre (not want). If varmint hunting you will need as part of your application, letters from farmers appointing to you control varmints. If you want to hunt meat you need to justify that etc etc. You submission will then be considered and if all is OK you will be awarded a licence, but not before they inspect you home and establish that you have a regulation safe, bolted to the wall or floor.

You can have 4 firearms, most end up with 2 rifles, a shotgun and a handgun. If you want more you have to apply for dedicated shooter status ans justify this. Don't try buying 2 30-06's ...... if you have one why do you need another one would be the question.


For the new owner this process can take 4 months so no impulse buying here.

You want primers or powder, produce your licence or you cannot buy. Want to shoot on a range, produce your license or no shooting for you.

You boys are blessed, owning a firearm here is murder.

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