[fireside44]

I can't figure out which way to go. I really wanted a particular rifle but it's simply out of my price range at $1200 or thereabouts. I'm not doing right by me and mine spending that kind of money so selfishly. So I'm looking for something I can have in my hand for no more than $850 including tax and/or shipping and transfer fee.

So I was fixing to settle on an M4 type I had found for a real good price that had all the features I wanted in one. Problem is, I don't really want an M4 or AR all that bad. I think I would rather have an AK but I don't really want to shell out the kind of money they want for an Arsenal. It seems Arsenal is pretty proud of their stuff. I'm unfamiliar with other AK makes and definitely don't need a potential headache from Century even though I was eyeballing the Galil's they ceased production on. I'm about a week away from having enough to pull the trigger on something and I'm at a loss all of the sudden.

Should I get the M4 I was looking at? Are there quality AK's out there for less than the Arsenals? I want something more or less turnkey ready to go. Is there something else I should consider? I know it's horrible, having to buy a new gun and all. Maybe I'll just upgrade what I have.:confused:

[mshootnit]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411537957
this will help you save a little money for you and yours:)

[fireside44]

Yeah looks good but I found a similar deal on one with all the features I would want on an AR. I just have to convince myself that's what I want most. Just not sure I want to play barbie all that much. Kinda leaning towards an AK but whose got good ones at my price range? I wanna know all my options here.

[mshootnit]

about 2 years ago now the SGL-21 (arsenal) was going for 699. There's an outside chance you could find one used in good shape with some online searching. Other than that I have had good luck with Saiga 308's and 5.45 rifles (1.75 to 2.5 moa). Ammo is less expensive. The thing I like about an AR type is the solid top mounting surface for optics.

[Noah]

A WASR-10 or similar AK is just fine for a battle rifle, though not a "sniper". They can be had for under $500. Another great option is converting a Saiga sporter yourself. You can get it in 5.45, 7.62x39, 5.56/.223, or .308 as well. $400 for the gun, under $150 for all needed parts. My brother converted his in just 2 days, a few hours.

For an AR, you can get a S&W M&P-15 Sport for $650 or so. Good basic AR.

Other lower cost options include the Ruger Mini-14 $650-750, or Kel-Tec Su-16 for $500-$600. Check 'em out!

[mshootnit]

interesting find:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=309445901

[Sheepdog1968]

There's always the mini-14 and 30's in your price range. Not sure what CMP has the Garand's going for these days but that's another option. Also, might find a good used M1 carbine.

[Girodin]

Are there quality AK's out there for less than the Arsenals?

Sure, a number of them, if buy quality you mean reliable and reasonably accurate. There are a few options. I will say AK prices seem to be up across the board. Its not really tghe best time to be buying an AK. I also think one can get more value per dollar in the AR world right now. If I were looking for a non arsenal I'd give at least the following guns a look.

First Saigas

Many of the arsenal models are just saigas they have done a pistol grip conversion on and put traditional AK furniture and muzzle devices on. The important parts of the gun, at least in terms of how it functions and shoots, are the same Russian parts as a saiga. Even if one is after a traditional looking AK one can get a saiga with a traditional front end and do the back half on his or her own. That gun is like $450 and will take maybe another $150 give or tack to finish it.

The M110s are Romanian guns that seem to get good reviews. My experience with Romanian guns is they are not as nice as saigas but they are still AK reliable and reasonably accurate.

AMD-65s: These are the cheapest AKs I see out right now. They are around $450. They are good guns. The have a different style handguard and a wire folder stock. I'm not a fan of wire folders, as they offer no cheek weld. One can get a piece added to help with that issue but it's still not my favorite stock. The other thing about the AMD is the shorter barrel with the permanently attached brake. This makes them loud, with a fair amount of flash and blast.

My personal choice is saigas that I work on my self. However, I don't want a traditional looking AK I want one built to best suit my uses. For that I think the saiga is the best platform. I also bought mine well before they were $400 or even $300 dollar guns.

When buying an AK I think there are a few questions to answer:

Do I want a traditional looking AK? Do you have a preference for a particular variant?

Realistically how are you going to use it?

What features do you want?

What are you willing to spend?

[theblakester]

Look into the FNAR. Shoots a .308 and FNH guarantees sub MOA out of the box. You'll need a scope for it though. You can find one used for about 850$173118

Also, for a good AK in your price range, look at the Zastava Pap m70. They're made in Serbia (very good build) and sent to century arms in America where they widen the mag well to fit 30 round magazines. Century doesn't build the AK itself, so it is quality and quite accurate for an AK.

[Lucifer_Sam]

I'm in the Saiga camp. I think you'll be getting the best bang for your buck... literally. As mentioned, when you convert yourself you can customize the rifle somewhat, and drop a bit on some nice extras, like hogue grips, or something I tried and liked, a JTE mainspring. Conversion parts will add about 100-150$ to the cost of the rifle, but you'll still have some extra cash from your budget you can spend on stuff like a side rail and a decent red dot, or just mags and ammo.

You can also do the AR assembly thing if you change your mind about what you're interested in-- put together a lower and buy yourself an upper. It'll probably cost a little more, but you should still be well within the budget you set for yourself. The good thing about that option is that you can get other uppers in other calibers down the line if you want.

[fireside44]

Many of the arsenal models are just saigas they have done a pistol grip conversion on and put traditional AK furniture and muzzle devices on. The important parts of the gun, at least in terms of how it functions and shoots, are the same Russian parts as a saiga. Even if one is after a traditional looking AK one can get a saiga with a traditional front end and do the back half on his or her own. That gun is like $450 and will take maybe another $150 give or tack to finish it.

This is good information. I'm gonna take some time later tonight and look into it. Is the conversion very difficult? What is involved? I don't want to get into what amounts to a rifle build, I've done that already. If it's merely adding and subtracting parts that's cool but I don't need a big project.

Do I want a traditional looking AK? Do you have a preference for a particular variant?

Realistically how are you going to use it?


If I went this route, traditional, sort of. I kind of want the 5.45. I would like to be able to put a rail up front for a red dot so I don't really want the funny looking Saiga handguards but rather something standard so I can do that. Or can you with the saiga handguards? I guess I don't even know all my options here. I have not spent much time looking into AK stuff.

The gun will be a truck gun, a gun my son and wife can shoot, and something I don't have to reload for if possible. I'd like to just shoot steel cased. I reload other calibers and to be honest I don't want the expense and hassle of reloading one more.

I just know if I go the AR route I'll have a million bucks into it before it's over with all the fine accessories and such available. In a way, it's tempting. I have a week or so to think it over I guess.

I also found a company called Waffen Werks that makes an AK that is within my range. Are they any good? Any other companies I can get a turnkey rifle from?

Look into the FNAR. Shoots a .308 and FNH guarantees sub MOA out of the box. You'll need a scope for it though. You can find one used for about 850$

Nice gun. 'Cept I already got a FAL and by the looks of the youtube video that thing is a royal pain to take down and mags are crazy priced. Whatever I get will have ten mags to go with it so this is out of the question.

[Lucifer_Sam]

Conversion is easy, hardest part is drilling out a couple rivets. Carolina shooters supply and youtube have videos on it. Well, you do need to drill and tap a hole if you want to use AK mags. Not a huge deal as long as you're careful.

They sell replacement handguards with rails. Saigas also come with standard AK side rail mounts. They do put the scopes kind of high, though.

Actually, you might or might not have to drill and tap a hole for the bullet guide, if I remember right. Standard ak-74 mags sometimes work fine in 5.45 Saigas. I think its hit or miss, though.

[DeMilled]

Another vote for buying a SAIGA and converting it yourself.

It'll allow you to spread the expenses out over a few paychecks too; buy gun and wait a bit, pick up conversion parts, convert, start buying magazines and ammo as your budget allows.

If you're not all hung up on 1MOA accuracy I think you should also consider the FN FAL.

[Neo-Luddite]

Like my WASR's (on in 5.45, one in 7.62). Less than 500 from AIM Surplus in Ohio. Made by the most productive AK factory on Earth, rough finished, but super reliable and good to 200 yards with ease.

[Axel Larson]

What are the veprs going for nowa days? if it is in your price range that would be another option.

[Sky]

Well just an idea on my part; "What is the range of your intended shooting"?

" How old are you and do you wear glasses"?

AKs have jumped almost $200 (or more) around here even for the cheap ones.

Kinda like you I was never yearning for the AR or AK until I actually went out and bought one. Both are great and have many useful purposes. No one rifle will do everything so my recommendation is make a list of what you want to do with the weapon (s) and see which one covers the most bases. Centerfire systems has ARs for $659 and AKs for $478.99 VZ2008 and others. I hunt and 99% of the time I grab an AR due to optics and accuracy at range but part of that is due to ammo used. Good luck on whatever you decide both are great rifles.

[NWcityguy2]

On the subject of M4s... If a company came out with a reliable, durable, piston driven M4 that was battlefield accurate beyond 300 yards, could be bought in a dozen places without waiting and comes from the factory setup for both iron sights and optics... all for $700... people would go nuts over it. If you told them it was made by Ruger, has a different action and is called a Mini 14 they would form an angry mob to kill you. Once they learned that it takes a different kind of magazine, well...

I joke of course but Minis are good rifles, can be bought anywhere, and have a company with a service department to stand behind them.

[Girodin]

Is the conversion very difficult?

This depends on what one means by "conversion." I take that term to mean pistol grip conversion, or doing the work on the rear end of the rifle, i.e. moving the fire control group, adding a pistol grip, adding an AK Stock, painting some bare metal, and most often for 7.62x39 making the gun work with standard magazines.

That part is, IMHO, very easy. I work in an office, I don't consider my self particularly handy. However, I can read and watch videos and often figure things out. If you can drill a straight hole and turn a screw driver the above work should be well with in you means. Certain tools, such as a drill press and a dremel will make the work easier. However, it certainly can be done without those.

If you plan to thread the barrel that is not a difficult task either in my estimation. It does require the right tools which cost about 50 dollars (CNC warrior carries them).

If you want to change things on the front end of the gun it can be slightly more difficult. Things like the sight and gas block need to be pressed off. It can be done without a press.

You can do a lot of things that require more or less skill when working on a saiga. However, getting the gun in a very serviceable configuration is within the means of the vast majority of people. You'd almost have to try to screw up most of the work.

I would like to be able to put a rail up front for a red dot so I don't really want the funny looking Saiga handguards but rather something standard so I can do that. Or can you with the saiga handguards? I guess I don't even know all my options here. I have not spent much time looking into AK stuff.

I'll write some more on this and try to detail some of the options and whats involved. I just don't have time right now to do it justice.

What are the veprs going for nowa days? if it is in your price range that would be another option.

Veprs have actually dropped, a lot. They can be had for about $100 more than saigas if you look in the right places. Centerfire systems had them at $499. Many models have sold out since that price decrease. A vepr would be a very good basis for outfitting a gun to your requirements. Like a saiga there are 922r concerns and you need to modify it to work with standard mags. Depending on what one is going to do I could argue for either the Vepr or the Saiga as a more sensical starting point. Veprs are nice guns, now that prices have dropped on many models (at the same time so many other AKs are going up) they are an attractive option.

Personally I would be very interest in a 16" barrel type II vepr with the front sight integrated into the gas block. People pay big bucks to retrofit guns with that. A stock adapter for the slant cut receiver and a stock I like. Swap the hand guard to something more conducive to my uses, add a muzzle device, and mount an aimpoint micro. Swap in a US made FCG and mod the gun to take standard AK mags. That would be an AK that I'd be very happy to own.

[Cee Zee]

I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS. They are exceptionally reliable rifles with better accuracy than AK's. The only thing you might want for is a large detachable mag but the truth is that stripper clips are a much better way to carry extra ammo. You don't have to carry the weight of the extra mags, just the ammo. The clips load very quickly with some practice and losing one is no big deal. Losing a mag is a big deal.

I've owned AK's and I shot them side by side with my SKS and in almost every way the SKS was a better rifle. I'm talking more reliable, more accurate and more durable. I'll never go back to AK's. In particular the Norinco SKS is a great rifle. The Russian models are also great. Yugos shoot great but have the extra weight of the grenade launchers.

And the best part is the price. I bought a Yugo for right at $250 about 18 months ago. It was still packed in cosmoline meaning it had been stored since the Yugoslavian military got done using them. It had barely been fired at all in fact. That's a whole lot less money than even an AK.

I won't say that the Saiga's etc. aren't great rifles. They are. But they aren't as cheap as the SKS and IMO the SKS is every bit as good if not better. I've had a Norinco for 20 years and other than some problems with bad ammo I've almost never had a problem. In fact I don't think I've ever had a problem that wasn't caused by bad ammo. That's an incredible record for a semi-auto. I even converted my Norinco (the old one I have) to box mags the first day I bought it. They have always worked perfectly for me. My Yugo is still in stock format because people convinced me that stripper clips were a better way to go.

[adelbridge]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=310245727

This is another FNAR or Browning BAR variant. They are tack drivers with good triggers. AKs are no where near as accurate and their trigger are an abomination.

[meanmrmustard]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=310245727

This is another FNAR or Browning BAR variant. They are tack drivers with good triggers. AKs are no where near as accurate and their trigger are an abomination.
Pish Posh. G2 triggers are great, and adding Tech sights to the receiver to lengthen the sight radius makes for an AK (Saiga most likely) that will keep pace with chrome lined ARs.

[Sky]

I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS. They are exceptionally reliable rifles with better accuracy than AK's. The only thing you might want for is a large detachable mag but the truth is that stripper clips are a much better way to carry extra ammo. You don't have to carry the weight of the extra mags, just the ammo. The clips load very quickly with some practice and losing one is no big deal. Losing a mag is a big deal.

I've owned AK's and I shot them side by side with my SKS and in almost every way the SKS was a better rifle. I'm talking more reliable, more accurate and more durable. I'll never go back to AK's. In particular the Norinco SKS is a great rifle. The Russian models are also great. Yugos shoot great but have the extra weight of the grenade launchers.

And the best part is the price. I bought a Yugo for right at $250 about 18 months ago. It was still packed in cosmoline meaning it had been stored since the Yugoslavian military got done using them. It had barely been fired at all in fact. That's a whole lot less money than even an AK.

I won't say that the Saiga's etc. aren't great rifles. They are. But they aren't as cheap as the SKS and IMO the SKS is every bit as good if not better. I've had a Norinco for 20 years and other than some problems with bad ammo I've almost never had a problem. In fact I don't think I've ever had a problem that wasn't caused by bad ammo. That's an incredible record for a semi-auto. I even converted my Norinco (the old one I have) to box mags the first day I bought it. They have always worked perfectly for me. My Yugo is still in stock format because people convinced me that stripper clips were a better way to go.

I started to bring that up myself....If he is old and wants glass I would do the AR no questions asked, but, it is a personal kinda thing.

[Cee Zee]

If he is old and wants glass I would do the AR no questions asked

+1 on that. There's no mounting a scope on a AK or an SKS. Some of the other stuff around might be different I guess.

[fireside44]

"What is the range of your intended shooting"?

300 yards absolute maximum.

How old are you and do you wear glasses

30's. No glasses. I don't really have a desire for a scope. Irons and a red dot will suffice me just fine for this particular gun. On an AR maybe a red dot with a magnifier.

I'll write some more on this and try to detail some of the options and whats involved. I just don't have time right now to do it justice.

I really appreciate the info Girodin. It was nice of you to type it all out but I think I'll pass on the Saiga. I went the DIY route last time around, building from a kit and I just don't want to spend the time to do it I don't think. It sounded kind of interesting but when you mentioned a $50 tool to thread the barrel for a FH I just started thinking I would pass. I'm fairly handy, I just don't want to get into it that far and on top of it I'd need to deal with the handguards situation cause I'd like a little rail up front.

I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS.

I thought about those too on account of the low cost, they would make a good truck gun. I'm pretty set on using a detachable magazine fed weapon though. I'll have at least ten or fifteen mags for whatever I get. I can't explain exactly why, I'd just like an AK or AR more than an SKS.

As for the VEPR suggestions other people made I'm not interested due to the proprietary mags.

If you're not all hung up on 1MOA accuracy I think you should also consider the FN FAL.

I have a nice Para here at home. It will always be my favorite autoloader, hands down. I just can't afford another one. I just want to find a rifle I can get as excited about as that one.

[TrickyDick]

Just go with an M70AB2, you can't go wrong.

[TCBPATRIOT]

I have a smith here in town that's does conversions for 40 bucks as long as you bring the parts yourself. Maybe you could look into having it done. If not an AR or AK(saiga) Id look into a maybe an older mini or have you considered a pistol caliber carbine?

[meanmrmustard]

+1 on that. There's no mounting a scope on a AK or an SKS. Some of the other stuff around might be different I guess.
False. Both can and have been scoped quite successfully.

[Sky]

Well the 300 yard thing to me screams AR. Being a hunter I actually took a pig around dusk at 327 yards; it was a double pop from a steady rest and the pig was DRT.

Now, I would not have taken the shot with my AK due to the ammo I use in it for pig popping which is 154sp; even my Eotech sighted AR that uses the same ammo I would not have taken the shot.

To me my AK is great out to 125 or 150 yards for hunting (prefer 75 to 100) if I want to hit close to the spot I am aiming for and my AK is pretty darn accurate for an AK.

The AR (again my personal experience) provides a very comfortable 200+ range weapon for pigs. Again part of the reason is ammo and optics. Now I do have different 7.62x39 ammo that is much more consistent and accurate than the 154gr SP but even so out past 200 yards and wanting to be hunting accurate then for me the AR is first choice.

Would be great if you can go to a range that rent both weapons and do your own test and maybe one of them will call your name.

[Girodin]

So this isn't the detailed write up I wanted to do on the various options for RDS on an AK. In fact it is very spartan. I don't have time to discuss each and compare them much. It basically just shows whats available.

There are five main ways to put a red dot sight (RDS) on an AK. There are other possibilities beyond what I will describe, but these are the common ones. Some work better with certain RDSs.

Side rail like these: You said you wanted a forward mount but I thought I'd at least mention this option

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/406390_307589385944786_151408161562910_762619_1293389587_n.jpg

http://thecurt.com/rj74_new2.jpg

An ultimak gas tube rail: This is one of the most proven set ups. With an aimpoint micro it allows for cowitness. An ultimak is about $90. One nice thing about this it also allows you to mount a light.

http://www.acmfs.com/photos/firearms/saiga762finalvlad4.JPG

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/uploads/gallery/album_21671/gallery_62410_21671_123631.jpg

MI rail with optic specific top cover. They make top covers for a variety of RDS. I like that there is a longer handguard. I don't like the short hand guards of an AK. MI offers both legnths. They offer railed and smooth with the ability to add sections of rail. THe latter is my preference.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wqnOMXc__lg/TK37DaD8_BI/AAAAAAAAA5g/4z2EqSB2fXE/s400/midwestindustries_akhg.gif

TWS handguard. I have no experience with this handguard but I like it on paper. I like that I can shoot thumb over bore with out burning it. I like the idea of micro flip up sight on the rail matched with a TWS top cover. The big draw back is the thing is $260-300 (although an ultimak gas tube coupled with an ultimak handguard is about the same price and heavier and doesn't shield the gas tube). The other problem is it seems to be out of stock where I've seen it listed.

Another option is to just use the the TWS top cover and mount the RDS on it. I'd have to check the price but I think it is around $125. The picture below shows both products.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/TexWeapSys/PIC_0619.jpg

Another option for some RDS is this from Midwest industries. The MI mini dot mount. I have no experience with it but am think I may use it on a Mini draco SBR. It allows cowitness and doesn't ad much size or weight which is why I want it for the mini.

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/akmdm.gif

[Girodin]

adding Tech sights to the receiver to lengthen the sight radius makes for an AK (Saiga most likely) that will keep pace with chrome lined ARs.

I don't want to get to into this too much but I think it may be helpful to unpack that statement a little bit.

First are we talking mechanical accuracy or practical accuracy (i.e. what one can shoot with irons from field positions. Also what ammo are we talking about? Ammo is often a limiting factors. In terms of practical accuracy with irons and from field positions most folks are not as accurate as a saiga or an AR.

If we are talking purely mechanical accuracy it is too broad a statement to say an AK will be as accurate and a chrome lined AR. First of all, not all AKs and all ARs are made the same. There are chrome lined ARs that are still VERY accurate. John Noveske said this about his chrome lined barrels: "here is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels."

This is part of why these barrels are very consistent and legit sub MOA guns. I have never encountered a legit and consistent sub MOA AK. I've seen groups, mostly three shot groups that are. However, these are invariably, best of the day groups, not what the gun will consistently print on demand.

Shooting from field positions with irons or a red dot make it very hard to make use of all that accuracy. Further, shooting cheapo ammo likely will not get you the best results either.

In sum, my experience has been that saigas are MUCH more accurate than most think and the gun is rarely the limiting factor in the accuracy equation. On the flip side not all ARs are the super accurate guns of internet lore. Even chrome lined guns that are very accurate probably cannot show that accuracy with most shooters in the real world. Shooting an AR with a 4 or even 2 MOA red dot sight or irons from field positions, particularly with cheap ammo most shooters (I know I'm one) cannot hold the sub MOA accuracy some of these guns are capable off.




really appreciate the info Girodin. It was nice of you to type it all out but I think I'll pass on the Saiga. I went the DIY route last time around, building from a kit and I just don't want to spend the time to do it I don't think. It sounded kind of interesting but when you mentioned a $50 tool to thread the barrel for a FH I just started thinking I would pass. I'm fairly handy, I just don't want to get into it that far and on top of it I'd need to deal with the handguards situation cause I'd like a little rail up front.

I'm not trying to push you one way or another. I'm just trying to help you make an informed decision. In that vein I think there are a few things worth mentioning.

First there are a number of railed hand guard options that will work with a Saiga without retro fitting it to also work with standard AK handguards (*edited for some reason I wrote mags before instead of handguards). In fact, a number of railed options actually require removing the handguard retainer from an AK, effectively making it like a saiga. Options that work with a saiga include. MI universal hand guard, the MI extended and SS extended, Chaos hand guards, ultimak, Surefire gun mags handguard, TWS and more.

If what you are after is a rail for the red dot, say an ultimak that is slightly different. THe stock longer saiga handguard will not work. Certain other hand guards will not work either. However some of these can be modified to work. Rather than try to list everything that will and wont work and what it takes to make them work I'll leave it at that unless there is a specific inquiry.

Now if you really want standard AK handguards, this gun is an option. It also addresses the issue of the threaded barrel. It is threaded under the big muzzle nut which you see. This gun runs about $450 last I checked, compared to $400 for a regular saiga.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m79xmafm2E1qdrno0o1_500.jpg

As for the VEPR suggestions other people made I'm not interested due to the proprietary mags.

7.62x39 Veprs can be made to work with standard mags. Thus if magazines are the only impediment I wouldn't let it stop you.

[justice06rr]

With your 300yard shooting, I would probably suggest going with the AR. You would probably struggle with iron sights past 150yards on the AK; not so much with the AR. Of course you can add optics to both, but you mentioned Irons only. the irons on an AK are not very friendly for longer distances IMO, and harder to use past 100yards. thats just my observations concerning the 2.

I like both rifles but the AR gives you better accuracy and controllability overall. For your budget of $850 there are a few good options you can go with. Maybe a BCM complete upper with a PSA complete Lower. Or if you just want a complete AR, then you can go with Smith&Wesson, Stag, RRA, Spikes, and PSA (among others).

[303tom]

Maybe you should consider one of these.......

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=310294494

I have two of them, one in 7.62 NATO & one in 7.5 French, I think they are the cats meow as far as AR`s go..........

[fireside44]

Now if you really want standard AK handguards, this gun is an option. It also addresses the issue of the threaded barrel. It is threaded under the big muzzle nut which you see. This gun runs about $450 last I checked, compared to $400 for a regular saiga.

Once again, thanks for all the good info Girodin. Should I go the AK route I will likely reference your posts again. Nice of you to take the time and post it.

Who is carrying those particular Saigas with the standard HG's and FH? I could see myself doing a bit of work putting in the standard stock if the front end was already how I wanted it. I just don't want something that is gonna take too much time to get into final form.

With your 300yard shooting, I would probably suggest going with the AR. You would probably struggle with iron sights past 150yards on the AK; not so much with the AR. Of course you can add optics to both, but you mentioned Irons only. the irons on an AK are not very friendly for longer distances IMO, and harder to use past 100yards. thats just my observations concerning the 2.

I posted 300 yards as the absolute maximum. My local range has a 200 yard max unless I drive to a high power range a couple hours away. My area has quite a bit of salt cedar coverage so much of my shooting would be sub-100 yards. I mostly threw 300 out there as the maximum I would ever attempt to shoot the rifle unless I went with an AR and could go have some fun stretching it's legs.

I also had a look at the CZ58's which are kind of interesting. Milled receivers, real nice fit and finish, about my price range. Anyone with experience there? Anyone tried Waffen Werks AKs? Just trying to get as much feedback as possible before I decide.

[Girodin]

They can be found here. I'm not saying this is the best deal. It often pays to shop around. However this is a place that has them. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=104&Itemid=762

I just don't want something that is gonna take too much time to get into final form.

The back half takes maybe 3 hours of work if you are going REALLY slow, being really careful, and consulting instructions frequently. After doing it a couple times, I would guess the last one took me 45 minutes.

The time for hand guards and other front end stuff really depends on what exactly you want to do.

I will say I think the gun I posted a pic of above would make for a good AK. You could do all of the following in an afternoon. Pistol grip conversion/ move the FCG, modify it to take standard AK mags (this requires drilling and tapping a hole and a little filing on the mag latch), cut the thin weld and remove the muzzle nut and screw on the device of your choice (options range form $10 to nearly $200), and install an Ultimak gas tube. The ulimak would give you a place to mount a RDS and anything else one might need, say a light.

This would be a solid AK that will in all likelihood outlast you and has everything one could need and at a price less than an arsenal and with, to my mind at least, a more functional configuration.

With the Waffen Works gun I'd be looking real hard at what barrel they used. I'm not real up on what they are doing today, however, it was my understanding WW guns are kit builds with US barrels. From reviews I've seen they seem to be assembled well and have a nice finish, one that is nice than Arsenal's and various factory guns. However, personally, in as much as my guns are shooters, I'm MUCH more concerned about the barrel (and other key parts) of my gun than the finish. Personally, I'd rather spend my money building a saiga or vepr to a configuration to match my needs and desires. That's just me though.

[fanchisimo]

Atlantic has been out of Saigas for a while. If you want to avoid doing all the extra work to the front half you're looking for a Saiga 332 (7.62x39) or the 240 (5.45x39). These two have most of the front work done minus taking the thread protector off. I have been looking for a 332 for a while and haven't had much luck. Another AK is the newer WASR 10/63 which can be had for around $500 right now at Classic Firearms. If you look around online the 10/63's have been getting better much reviews than the old WASR 10. The reviews on it has me considering trying a 10/63.

Edit: It's a Saiga 340 for the 5.45x39 with the front work done. The 240 is the model with the standard Saiga Sporter front end.

[Girodin]

Atlantic has been out of Saigas for a while.

I just saw they list them. You have to try and add it to your cart to be told they don't have it I guess. It's so annoying when companies cannot simply list whether items are in stock or not.

I'd check around at the usual AK places. I don't know off the top of my head what places do or don't have them. Saigas tend to be cyclic. A shipment comes in and everyone has them and then they seem to dry up and you have to wait a bit for the next batch.

[meanmrmustard]

Atlantic does indeed have Saigas.

[fanchisimo]

meanmrmustard, it's like Girodin said, they have them listed, but as soon as you try to add them to your cart, they are out of stock. I share your annoyance Girodin, ever since I started looking for an AK/Saiga to convert, I have run into several websites not accurately listing their wares. It's like seeing a big wrapped present and when you go to open it, a spring-propelled boxing glove is waiting for you. Lol. This link has a company selling 7.62 Saigas for 359 + S&H but I can't find their website.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_122/1049734_SAIGA_7_62x39__LIMITED_SUPPLY_at__359___SandH.html