FIE question


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TomADC
October 8, 2012, 12:40 AM
If you have one in 1851 .36 cal I need to know the over all length of the cylinder.
Thanks Tom

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Jim, West PA
October 8, 2012, 11:17 AM
Here ya go Tom
Cylinder is 1.705 - 1.707
Cylinder including pawl cogs is 1.820 - 1.823.

TomADC
October 8, 2012, 11:30 AM
Thanks Jim, I'm not sure what this frame is, but it locks up with Pietta parts that are to long for it.

kBob
October 8, 2012, 12:24 PM
Not marked FIE but that COM marked gun of mine has a cylinder that mics 1.828 on my cheap elctronic measuring device.

You might also want to check the arbor diameter as the arbor on my COM gun is thicker than Piettas even thought the cylinder is shorter and thinner.

Good luck.

-kBob

TomADC
October 8, 2012, 12:38 PM
Arbor and cylinder on the Pietta is .030 longer then on the unknown frame. The Pietta barrel will fit and the arbor on both is the same dia. Beats me I'm just going to strip it and use what I can get out if it for spare parts.
I bought this as a skeleton and it came with a round Pietta barrel, had a 1860 trigger guard but was missing cylinder, back strap and grips.
I picked up a 1851 trigger guard and backstrap. These fit right into place all the screw holes lined up great, But no matter what we do it won't cock when everything is in place but loosen the wedge move the cylinder a tick forward and everything functions as it should?

Rojelio
October 8, 2012, 01:27 PM
Tom, maybe you could face the cylinder off a few thousands. What have you got to loose. It would be no big deal in a lathe.

Jim, West PA
October 8, 2012, 03:42 PM
Sounds like yer pawl is a bit too long Tom.
Take it out,reasemble whole gun and see iffin yer hammer and trigger function proper.

TomADC
October 8, 2012, 03:51 PM
Jim I've had it apart dozens of times, even swapped out the bolts and hands gave up sent it to a friend that knows way more then I do he didn't have any luck either. Tuned and tweaked until he gave up.

Jim, West PA
October 8, 2012, 04:02 PM
The only culprit(s) that it can be Tom, ( in my limited knowledge of these) is the length/shape of the pawl and or the cogs on the cylinder
Lemme check my book this evening and see if it has anything to offer.

arcticap
October 8, 2012, 09:49 PM
Would shimming the arbor work?

TomADC
October 9, 2012, 09:45 AM
Would shimming the arbor work?

If it would I won't have a clue how to do it, I have a FIE cylinder coming for a fit check.
I'm wondering also if the bolt notches in different brands cylinders are located to match their frames for timing? Does that make sense?

arcticap
October 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
Shimming the arbor can be done in different ways. One way is to cut some small discs from a thin material such as a soda can that will fit into the hole for the arbor in the barrel lug. This can open up the barrel/cylinder gap instead of removing metal from the barrel face.

Jim, West PA
October 9, 2012, 11:36 AM
Steve, the problem, as Tom has indicated here..........

But no matter what we do it won't cock when everything is in place but loosen the wedge move the cylinder a tick forward and everything functions as it should?

Is that the cylinder needs to move forward and not back.
This is what leads me to think it is the length/shape/angle of the pawl creating the issue.

Or, as Rojelio has indicated, the is no cylinder gap causing the cylinder itself to bind up.

Tom, are all the parts original to the gun.

TomADC
October 9, 2012, 12:52 PM
Jim I bought this as a skeleton, had frame, 1860 trigger guard, Pietta round G&G barrel frame had the hammer, trigger, hand, bolt. I bought a cylinder from Cabelas, a 1851 trigger guard and back strap was given a set of grips.
So its a Hienz 57 of revolvers.

arcticap
October 9, 2012, 01:17 PM
Is that the cylinder needs to move forward and not back.

My thought was that if the arbor was shimmed, it would increase the cylinder gap so that the cylinder would have more room to move forward when it's cocked.
The frame could then also be shimmed where the barrel lug mates with the alignment pins.
It was only suggested as something to possibly try without needing to permanently alter any parts.
But if the gun needs parts then the parts will need to be properly fitted. :)

Jim, West PA
October 9, 2012, 01:31 PM
Well,then with the hammer and pawl bein native to the frame that rules out my theory.
Is there any excessive metal or burrs on the cylinder cogs (or star) ?
How much cylinder gap do you have when the gun is assembled ?

When you say loosen the wedge move the cylinder a tick forward , what you are actualy doing is moving the Bbl forward a "tick".
This tells me that since the Bbl is not native to the gun that it's forcing cone could be too long. If this is the case, i would not face the cylinder. I would stone a .001 or more off the forcing cone.Do this in .001 increments.

Oh, i checked my book last night and it ofered nothing on this subject.

Jim, West PA
October 9, 2012, 01:33 PM
My thought was that if the arbor was shimmed, it would increase the cylinder gap so that the cylinder would have more room to move forward when it's cocked.
The frame could then also be shimmed where the barrel lug mates with the alignment pins.
It was only suggested as something to possibly try without needing to permanently alter any parts.
But if the gun needs parts then the parts will need to be properly fitted.

Now i follow ya Steve.
(my apollogies for misunderstanding)
Great idea.
Simply shim the mating surfaces first and if that fixes it then i would face the forcing cone.

SleazyRider
October 9, 2012, 01:51 PM
I faced my cylinder .003 and it made a world of difference. Before facing, The cylinder was out-of-square by over .002, which caused it to bind in the high spot. If I had to do the forcing cone, I'd consider doing it on a mandrel or even a milling machine to ensure a perpendicular cut.

TomADC
October 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
So being bored I tried shimming the arbor by adding shim stock inside the hole for the arbor and that does work. I'll have to clean them up so they aren't so Mickey Mouse and see how it shoots.

BHP FAN
October 16, 2012, 02:16 AM
I have a couple of old cylinders that are for an unknown brand of 1851 clone that are too short for Piettas.

TomADC
October 16, 2012, 11:33 PM
I'm confused as to what is wrong with this thing. When I shim the arbor, I can get it to cock and cycle a few times, but I'm a tick off on the shim or something else is out of whack.
Not sure a shorter cylinder is the answer, hate to buy one (I have one already) and it doesn't fit the recoil shield. Have a member on another board that wants to play with it.

zimmerstutzen
October 17, 2012, 08:27 AM
I know that some Italian revolvers over the years were made by at least a dozen different companies and individual parts at one time were manufacturred in garages and sheds on a "home/cottage industry" basis.

Some companies just folded, some merged and some went out of business but their tooling and machinery was picked up and continued by other manufacturers. For instance, I heard that Palmetto sold some of it's rifle machinery to pedersoli and that some Palmetto parts fit some Pedersoli guns. It would be immensely helpful if somebody could start a sticky thread for dimensions of cylinders, arbors etc. There are a lot of orphaned junk drawer guns out there which could be serviceable again with minor parts.

TomADC
October 18, 2012, 12:44 PM
This problem has been put to rest, somebody bought it..

Jim, West PA
October 18, 2012, 01:01 PM
Hey Tom, let us know what his findings are when he's done with it. ?

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