The inexpensive firearm for defence line of reasoning....


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saturno_v
October 9, 2012, 02:34 AM
I actually subscribe to that, let's say "school of thought".

Before you say it....yes any firearm that I trust my life to it has to be dead reliable and accurate and you have to be comfortable in shooting it that is a given, I know.

Many people carry very expensive pieces or such pieces are placed for "defence duty" inside the house (nightstands, drawers, etc...)

Often the usual question on forums pops out: "Can the whizbang semi-auto military style rifle (take your pick) modified this way be used for home defense??" Other than just the consideration about the danger of losing a potentially precious and hard to replace semi-auto military style (thinking about the current candidates in the upcoming election) who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

As you probably already figured out, the "inexpensive firearm for defence" argument is that in the unfortunate event of actually discharing your gun, there is a very good probability that you may lose your weapon or at minimum it could go though some rough handling before being returned to you.....I know in case of legal expenses, that is the least of your problems but why adding up to the ordeal the loss of that Les Baer you spent almost a month of salary to buy?? (yes I know a range master that uses a Les Baer as a concealed carry weapon)

In my case, the 3 pieces that are up for defence duty (carry or home) are among the least expensive firearms of my collection.....a Mossberg 500 shotgun, a Kel Tec P-11 and a Bersa Thunder 40 full size

Again, they are hyper reliable and accurate anI love them but I can afford to lose them without a second thought if the manure hit the proverbial fan....

What is your take on this??

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The Lone Haranguer
October 9, 2012, 02:40 AM
The price of a firearm is largely irrelevant, as long as it is reliable.

ZGunner
October 9, 2012, 02:44 AM
I think I can see where you're coming from on this.

But honestly if someone breaks into my home and I need to use deadly force to protect myself and everything in my house, I don't think I'll worry or care too much about what happens to my firearm afterwards. If the police confiscate it, so be it. At least I'll be around to complain about how long it take to get back.

But no it doesn't take a $2000 custom pistol to defend a house. It could be a $80 shotgun or even a $20 Maglite. Either way my main concern would be my own safety and the safety of innocent bystanders.

saturno_v
October 9, 2012, 03:10 AM
think I can see where you're coming from on this.

But honestly if someone breaks into my home and I need to use deadly force to protect myself and everything in my house, I don't think I'll worry or care too much about what happens to my firearm afterwards. If the police confiscate it, so be it. At least I'll be around to complain about how long it take to get back.

But no it doesn't take a $2000 custom pistol to defend a house. It could be a $80 shotgun or even a $20 Maglite. Either way my main concern would be my own safety and the safety of innocent bystanders.

Obviously safety and having the right tool for the job is the most paramount concern...however, you have to decide which are the guns to keep at ready (meaning out of the safe and in the right places or on you) for the task.....make that choice

12131
October 9, 2012, 05:20 AM
The price of a firearm is largely irrelevant, as long as it is reliable.
Yup, as far as I'm concerned, also.

Surf
October 9, 2012, 05:43 AM
Before you say it....yes any firearm that I trust my life to it has to be dead reliable and accurate and you have to be comfortable in shooting it that is a given, I know.This is your answer PERIOD, cost be damned. And it is not your business in how much someone spends on defending themselves. You are placing a certain amount of importance on cost of the weapon. Cost be damned. So what if someone happens to be more comfortable with a weapon that costs more money than another weapon. Cost is not the factor, comfort and proficiency level is what matters. The rest of your questions are answered already. What kind of a price do you place on your life? So what if the weapon costs a bit more. If it served its purpose in the hand of the user, be damned the cost. It isn't gone forever, if you used it justly. If it wasn't justified cost of the weapon is the least of your worries. I will continue to humor you.

Often the usual question on forums pops out: "Can the whizbang semi-auto military style rifle (take your pick) modified this way be used for home defense??" Other than just the consideration about the danger of losing a potentially precious and hard to replace semi-auto military style (thinking about the current candidates in the upcoming election) who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need.... I didn't know that this was a usual question that "pops out". Maybe it does to the less informed, but if I am going to use a weapon for home defense, why should I not give myself the greatest advantage possible? Are you saying that my life or the lives of my family are not worth enough to gain the advantage of what modern technology available to the civilian market has to offer, even if it is similar to what is being issued to the military? What is this semi auto, military style, BS comment? Us ordinary people? Really?

As you probably already figured out, the "inexpensive firearm for defence" argument is that in the unfortunate event of actually discharing your gun, there is a very good probability that you may lose your weapon or at minimum it could go though some rough handling before being returned to you.....I know in case of legal expenses, that is the least of your problems but why adding up to the ordeal the loss of that Les Baer you spent almost a month of salary to buy?? (yes I know a range master that uses a Les Baer as a concealed carry weapon) This is about the most ignorant statement that people wish to bring up. Who the eff cares, if I used my Les Baer to save my life. I am alive and that is what matters.

In my case, the 3 pieces that are up for defence duty (carry or home) are among the least expensive firearms of my collection.....a Mossberg 500 shotgun, a Kel Tec P-11 and a Bersa Thunder 40 full size

Again, they are hyper reliable and accurate anI love them but I can afford to lose them without a second thought if the manure hit the proverbial fan....

What is your take on this?? Good for you. The problem with people presenting your argument is, who are you to tell anyone what they should chose to defend themselves and what it costs? What is your creds to suggest or question what others chose to do? Shouldn't you be more happy that people are at the least taking up the responsibility of their own personal protection and not how much they are deciding to spend on it? I know people that waste a lot more money every single day on things that are of far less importance than tools that may actually save your life.

rduchateau2954
October 9, 2012, 06:19 AM
I have a used Mossberg 500. Not worth much and no sentimental value.

For one, it lives in random places in the house with no protection. It's gonna get nicks and scratches, collect dust, etc.

The other thought is that if god forbid I ever have to use it for what it's intended it will be taken by the police and be a long time, if ever before I get it back. While it is in their care who knows how it will be treated.

As far as accuracy goes, I am not sure how that is important for home defense. I can tell you that in the heat of the moment I won't be accurate. That's why I have a shotgun with an OC choke and 00 buck. The furthest shot in my house is under 10 yards. I am pretty sure I am not going to be looking for the sights.

I know it will go bang when I pull the trigger. I plan on getting a mounted light for it. Put the bad guy in the light, pull the trigger, rack and repeat.

45_auto
October 9, 2012, 08:47 AM
who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?

Who really need a fire extinguisher in their kitchen to handle most cooking situation?

Who really need seatbelts or airbags in their car to handle most driving situation?

I guess that call is up to you ..........

hso
October 9, 2012, 08:59 AM
A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

That's a slippery slope and can be taken as an elitist view. Look at your use of "ordinary people". What's not ordinary about about the fact that not everyone is capable or able to operate a lever action rifle. What about those that aren't able or capable of doing it effectively? Semi auto pistol? Plenty of folks are challenged by the slide. Then there are the caliber choices.

A light semiauto carbine is easer to operate than your examples and when loaded with light 5.56 ammunition has been proven over and over again to have less risk of injury to people in other rooms. Lever action rifles with pistol ammunition have more wall thickness penetration as do the handguns you use.

I'll concede that you don't have to hang tons of accessories off of any reliable firearm to make it effective for a homeowner, but the out of hand rejection of 5.56 carbines flies in the face of test after test and thread after thread.

Arkansas Paul
October 9, 2012, 09:22 AM
I know in case of legal expenses, that is the least of your problems but why adding up to the ordeal the loss of that Les Baer you spent almost a month of salary to buy?

I think you answered your own question here. Bottom line, it's your money, do whatever you feel like is best.

who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

I wouldn't expect to hear from a member on this site. That's dangerous talk for our cause.

Husker_Fan
October 9, 2012, 09:51 AM
I've always been fond of my cosmetically challenged K-Frame S&W .38s. They were "cheap," both $250 a four years ago. Both are incredibly reliable, accurate, and easy to use.

I have a more expensive HD Shotgun, but it does tripple duty on turkey and waterfowl with a barrel swap.

mljdeckard
October 9, 2012, 10:15 AM
If the cost of the gun is what I give up in exchange for my life, I'll call it the best bargain I ever heard of. A few hundred, a few thousand really fades into the background when you factor everything into the actual cost of a defensive shooting.

AND, I'll bet you a buck, if you ever DO use a gun in a defensive shooting, you can call that gun maker, and they will at least work with you on the cost of replacement. Their product saved a life. Good PR.

beatledog7
October 9, 2012, 10:40 AM
"Cost be damned" when it comes to safety sounds good, but for the vast majority of people, cost will always be a factor. If it weren't, everyone would be driving around in late model bank-vault Mercedes Benz cars with a couple dozen airbags and multiple camera blind spot monitoring (if they went out at all) and would be living in a fortress with high walls, Dobermans, fancy electronic security rigs, a machine gun nest or two, and a couple of drones in the air keeping watch over it all, 24-7.

Have you ever met a guy who's got a "cost be damned" array of home defense set-ups, tricked out firearms included, who says it's all to "keep my family safe" but who loads his children up unbelted in the cab of his pick-up, or in the back, and drives them all to the wherever they're going? I know people like that. Are they really focused on family safety?

The point is, home defense is far more about mindset than about technology, and includes firearm technology. Use the firearms that you feel are best, but don't neglect layered defense, and--most importantly--pay attention to your way of looking at "defending your home." Most people who would break in have no wish to hurt anyone--they're just petty thieves and will probably flee when confronted. At any rate, it'll be way more expensive to defend your decision to shoot a person over some stuff than to file an insurance claim for new stuff.

Regarding the use of high-dollar guns in SD/HD roles: If you decide to shoot another person, regardless of circumstances, the price of the selected firearm is the least of your worries. So spend your money how you see fit. Own whatever firearms you want to own and can legally own, and keep on pushing for RKBA to be protected so the rest of us can own the firearms we want to own. Don't ever fall into the "who really needs an AR?" trap. Whoever wants one has the right to own one, or a hundred, and that's all the reason he requires.

If absolute reliability is a criteria for a defensive firearm--well, good luck with that. Always remember: Firearms are mechanical devices designed and built by people; no matter how expensive or highly rated, and no matter how many failure-free rounds they have fired to date, they are always liable to fail. That includes every gun in your safe. Period. End of argument.

JohnBT
October 9, 2012, 10:47 AM
"What is your take on this??"

I carry insurance deductibles between $1k and $5k, so I tend to think that losing a gun after a shooting would be just like paying an insurance deductible. It's a possible future expense to be budgeted and just part of the cost of living.

I asked my homeowner's policy rep if I could raise the deductible from $5k to $10k, but she said it would take the vote of some board or other to have my request approved. High deductible = much lower premium. (Then she said, "Can you afford that much?")

Speaking of Les Baers. I had to look; a Les Baer Premier II lists for $1905. If that's "almost a month's salary" then that person certainly should watch their expenditures.

In conclusion, I guess it all depends on what you can afford and want to afford.

waterhouse
October 9, 2012, 10:50 AM
I use what I shoot best and am most comfortable with. I would not describe any of my defensive firearms as cheap. I am not concerned about their cost if I have to use one and it gets taken.

If it took a month's salary to pay for, and I use it to defend my family, I will gladly save up for another one.

This is not to say I believe an expensive gun is necessary. I used to carry a les Baer as well, but found a less expensive gun I shot better, so that us what I use.

Rob0321
October 9, 2012, 10:55 AM
If only there was an insurance plan that covered this type of event...


Going "cheap" on a defensive weapon because you might lose it is like getting a car without airbags because it is expensive to get them fixed after they deploy.

MedWheeler
October 9, 2012, 11:01 AM
Beatledog7 writes:

"Cost be damned" when it comes to safety sounds good, but for the vast majority of people, cost will always be a factor. If it weren't, everyone would be driving around in late model bank-vault Mercedes Benz cars with a couple dozen airbags and multiple camera blind spot monitoring (if they went out at all) and would be living in a fortress with high walls, Dobermans, fancy electronic security rigs, a machine gun nest or two, and a couple of drones in the air keeping watch over it all, 24-7.

Have you ever met a guy who's got a "cost be damned" array of home defense set-ups, tricked out firearms included, who says it's all to "keep my family safe" but who loads his children up unbelted in the cab of his pick-up, or in the back, and drives them all to the wherever they're going? I know people like that. Are they really focused on family safety?

I have used these exact same analogies and point previously. I have never yet seen the algorythm that is so often used in the "what's your life worth?" argument by people who say that, regardless of all other factors, a gun has to exceed a certain price point to be suitable for defense of life and limb. Many a bad guy has been driven off, captured, or put in the ground by "Granny's little .22" or other "lesser" guns.

nulook45
October 9, 2012, 11:03 AM
The wifes gun is a .38 special smith and wesson we got for less the 1/4 of what a new one cost , my pocket gun is a .22 rg model23 i got at a yard sale for 20 dollars one high quality one not so high quality , but when shtf both will do the job asked of them . as for using an AR inside the house wouldnt hesatate one second . because if that has to come out it really has hit the fan and its all out war. so while id use a 5.56 inside its mostly regulted to both inside and outside threats. the ..38 and .22s take care of the rest .

hardheart
October 9, 2012, 11:09 AM
I would say firstly that it is the business of anyone with internet access as to what you own and what you paid if you are going to inform the entire planet by posting about it. Righteous indignation has little weight when the only way for someone to know what you do is by you blasting it out to the web on public websites.

People who pay little justify frugality by pointing to intelligence in spending only what it necessary and having the transferable skills to make up for the limitations created by equipment choice. People who pay a lot justify the expense by pointing to intelligence in buying the best available and pointing out the superiority of the tools and the warranties/reliability. This is nothing specific to firearms, but very common in discussions of what we accumulate - firearms, automobiles, cell phones, pens, watches, anything.

The value of your life in no way equates directly to the value of your firearms. As mentioned by beatledog, the firearm choice is one of many, and a very small part of our efforts to stay alive day to day. Your life must not be worth much if you have an old or poorly maintained vehicle, or if you live in an area with frequent natural disasters and harsh inclement weather. You must not value your life in you live in an urban area with lots of crime, or if you are in a rural location with limited access to emergency services. Whatever your choice, it obviously is not as good as mine, because I spent more and got better, or spent less and am more skillful than you. This is sometimes how the arguments go, in more or less respectful tones.

But mentioned in some replies is not about the need for defense, or the most appropriate type of implement, but that by even questioning the utility or appropriateness, access to it can be questioned and thereby threatened. Of course, perceptions, tastes and preferences are what control costs to begin with. Some guns cost more than others because people are willing to pay more. We know what elections do to supplies and prices, along with inflation and currency exchange. The firearms might actually be cheaper if they weren't threatened or perceived to be threatened (ammo costs are going up next year, lead will be banned, buy our inventory now!) to begin with, or available to more people under less oppressive laws.

But then we'd have less to argue about.

saturno_v
October 9, 2012, 11:28 AM
I think some of you guys took my post in the wrong way....

First of all I love military style rifles and I do own many of them so I'm not advocating not owning them. As a matter of fact, I'm scared that given the current crop of candidates, the days of buying a military style semi-automatic weapon may draw to a close.....

Maybe there are situation where for someone are very appropriate, depending on the environment.

Where I live, my CCW instructor told me, "if you take a shot longer than 5 yards, in general, you are going to have a lot of explaining to do"

When I did advocate use of relatively inexpensive firearms, that included a Glock or a used Beretta and similar....I'm not advocating a Hi-Point to be sure....and it is not only a matter of cost....I meant also easy to replace...

Finally, reliability and accuracy is the most important aspect, I cannot stress this point enough...

MistWolf
October 9, 2012, 11:39 AM
...who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need...

First- This is America. Tyrants use the argument of need to limit our liberties. It is wrong.

Second- The AR, which I'm assuming you consider a "military style" rifle, is well suited to home defense. In carbine configuration, it has advantages the handgun and shotgun do not. There is good reason why the AR for many is their first choice. Less over penetration than a handgun or shotgun, greater weapon retention, less recoil than a shotgun and greater control of shot placement

Third- Folks should practice with their self defense weapons. I saw first hand three Keltecs break. Two were the Keltec compact pistols, one was the folding carbine in 223. The folding carbine broke at the receiver and Keltec had to replace it.

An AR and a PPQ was shot right along side those three Keltecs with nary a bobble. Total cost for the AR & PPQ including Aimpoint, sling, weapon light, holster, spare mags and plenty of ammo came out to just under $3k. Maybe not cheap, but certainly not expensive

RBid
October 9, 2012, 12:07 PM
My view:

There is no better application for money spent than preserving lives. If I had to use a $3000 firearm to save my life, then had it taken, I would think, "Well, THAT certainly did its job."

Ryanxia
October 9, 2012, 12:13 PM
Yep, cheapest piece that is reliable and I trust.

Redlg155
October 9, 2012, 12:53 PM
Some prudence should be expected when you choose a weapon for defense. Sure I can use a $100,000 Parker to defend myself, but do I really want to have it returned to me with some evidence number scrawled in electropencil?

At the same time I shouldn't be constrained to using a Makarov (Not East German of course!) to defend myself.

Current flavor? Glock 34. Good, reliable and middle of the road, however, there was a time where I was a dirt poor private with a family and only had a Davis. 380.

WinThePennant
October 9, 2012, 01:06 PM
One of the reasons why Glocks are such a value. They go bang every time, and you can get a used one for around $400.

Vern Humphrey
October 9, 2012, 01:55 PM
I personally tend to be a minimalist when it comes to firearms -- I like guns that are reliable, accurate, and powerful and have never been attracted to things like light rails, laser sights and so on.

On the other hand, I would never skimp on a defensive firearm -- that's like the designers of the Titanic who saved money by skimping on life boats.

X-Rap
October 9, 2012, 03:10 PM
Duplication is the answer for me, cost is of some concern but if so far as I know any gun taken as evidence in my location is returned if there is no conviction of wrong doing related to a shooting so the gun coming back or I would be forbidden to own it are the two outcomes.
If I were to loose my EDC today due to some evidentiary confiscation I could pick up any of a 1/2 dozen or so others and not even need a different holster. Same can be said of what amounts to my everyday long gun.

tarosean
October 9, 2012, 04:30 PM
There is no better application for money spent than preserving lives. If I had to use a $3000 firearm to save my life, then had it taken, I would think, "Well, THAT certainly did its job."

This.
Besides getting a gun refinished is not too costly if it came down to it.

Old Dog
October 9, 2012, 05:48 PM
Carrying an inexpensive firearm or keeping an inexpensive firearm for home defense because that's all one can afford (without taking food off the family table, clothes off the kids' backs, or raiding the kids' college fund) is one thing ...

... but carrying an inexpensive firearm or keeping that inexpensive gun as the primary HD gun SOLELY because one is worried about the gun being taken away by authorities for however long a period, after it's been used for its intended defensive purpose is just plain ludicrous.

Carry/keep the gun that you shoot the best, the most accurately, the fastest, and with which you feel the most comfortable. For me, yeah, it probably is a $2800 Ed Brown 1911 ... I won't ridicule you if your choice is a Kel-Tec ... But I still think we owe it to our families to use the best tools we can afford ... My family's safety is the most important thing to me; that's why I want them riding around in a Volvo rather than a Ford Focus.

EddieNFL
October 9, 2012, 07:33 PM
Well, I'm glad you said inexpensive as the cheapest often proves more expensive in the end.

Also, the definition of inexpensive differs from person to person.

buckhorn_cortez
October 9, 2012, 10:31 PM
One of the reasons why Glocks are such a value. They go bang every time...

Yeah, up until Glock, no other gun in the history of guns has ever done that....

As to the other contentions, the whole argument is inane. Use whatever you want.

You only need to have confidence in the gun working when required, and have no attachment to as anything more than a tool that can be replaced. Cost is immaterial if your choice meets the working criteria.

gym
October 9, 2012, 10:41 PM
The main idea is to still be alive, after it's over with. Whatever gets you there is what you should use. There have been hundreds of these types of posts and seldom does anyone agree on which is the better choice.
one thing I will tell you is having been shot at, the last thing I cared about was how much the gun cost, only that it better work. It might be worth a months salary to be alive if that 45 works best for you. And unless you are a pro with a pump, I would not recommend one. Get a good auto shotgun, and you have less to think about.

Sharps-shooter
October 9, 2012, 11:31 PM
Shotguns are versatile and can be had for cheap, if that's what you're going for.

saturno_v
October 9, 2012, 11:36 PM
Carry/keep the gun that you shoot the best, the most accurately, the fastest, and with which you feel the most comfortable. For me, yeah, it probably is a $2800 Ed Brown 1911 ... I won't ridicule you if your choice is a Kel-Tec ... But I still think we owe it to our families to use the best tools we can afford ... My family's safety is the most important thing to me; that's why I want them riding around in a Volvo rather than a Ford Focus.


The Kel Tec is my pocket gun because of its small size si I should have specified it is not my main HD piece (but I still carry in my pocket around the house)

My "get to business" pistol (HD and carry) is my Bersa Thunder 40 which price wise, accuracy and reliability wise is in the Glock/Beretta/SIG ballpark.

I shoot my as new S&W 1006 and my Berettas and my tuned and engraved nickeled S&W 29 as well.....so I choose to use my least expensive and easier to replace firearms which I shoot as well and are as good as accurate and reliable

If you think your $2800 custom 1911 is more effective than a Glock or similar, you are entitled to your opinion.....

Old Fuff
October 9, 2012, 11:45 PM
Perhaps the Old Fuff can answer a question by asking one...

Who among us is most likely to get into a shooting situation? (Exclude the military).

I would think the obvious answer would be "law enforcement officers who must seek out and arrest dangerous felons and others."

So do they carry customized, extra-expensive handguns? With very few exceptions, I'd say no.

Over the years I have examined literally hundred's of police handguns, mostly ordinary pistols and revolvers, that were unmodified, finish worn, and far from fancy. However without exception they got the job done when it needed to be done, and all were in sound mechanical shape unless they had been turned in because they weren't.

So most of my favorite carry guns meet the same description, with the occasional exception of custom stocks on a revolver. On more then one occasion someone has showed up at a shooting range with what I call a "bragging gun," and been left in the dust by someone shooting what by all appearences would seem to be a total piece of junk. It ain't what it looks like that's important. It's the skill and experience of the person who's shooting it that matters. ;)

Old Dog
October 10, 2012, 12:25 AM
Gosh, Mr saturno_v, I wasn't trying to come across as a gun snob. Yep, I think I shoot great with custom 1911s, and if I knew in advance I was going into a situation where I knew I was gonna have to fire say, exactly TWO shots -- and make them count, I'd for sure take the Ed Brown. As an aside, however, I do go to work everyday with a box-stock S&W M&P pistol, and I'm good with that.

By the way, I'm curious as to where you live that you can pick up SIGs and Berettas that are "in the ballpark" price-wise as a Bersa ... I'm always in the market for more SIGs and Berettas ...

And yes, I most definitely believe that my $2800 custom 1911 is more effective than any Glock or similiar ... in my hands. I do appreciate your affirmation that I am entitled to an opinion (I do believe that you, as the OP, were asking for our takes on the question).

Old Fuff, of course, is spot on. I merely pointed out that it was my opinion that one should avail one's self of the best tool one can afford, and that to put a price point on one's family's safety -- and being worried about having one's firearm locked away for a while for evidence, postulating that for that reason one should use inexpensive firearms -- is simply preposterous.

I'd hate to think that anyone would be asking opinions in an effort to try to rationalize using only inexpensive guns, though ...

saturno_v
October 10, 2012, 05:35 AM
By the way, I'm curious as to where you live that you can pick up SIGs and Berettas that are "in the ballpark" price-wise as a Bersa ... I'm always in the market for more SIGs and Berettas ...


Well I meant to say in the same ballpark as accuracy and reliability, price wise they are getting close especially with Berettas, the basic blued Bersa Thunder full size around here (western WA) retail for well north of $400 (I would say $450 on average), you can buy a basic Beretta 92 for $550 and not unheard of getting a basic blued SIG in service caliber for $650-700.

Bersas are not longer the bargain basement they used to be, people are finally recognizing them (deservely so in my opinion)

I'd hate to think that anyone would be asking opinions in an effort to try to rationalize using only inexpensive guns, though ...


No that was not the point of my post and I apologize I I did come across a bit strongly.....for me accuracy, reliability and my ability to shoot well come first....then I take in consideration what that pistol is worth to me if the 3 factors I mentioned are the same....

I trust my life to my Bersa as much I would trust to my more expensive handguns...and I trust my Bersa more than some high price pieces I saw in my friend's hands....there are cheap guns and there are inexpensive guns, very different concept...

45_auto
October 10, 2012, 07:58 AM
for me accuracy, reliability and my ability to shoot well come first

If you're really serious about those concepts, I'd be willing to bet that you would change your carry gun after running through something like a Gunsite 250 course with your Bersa, then your S&W 1006, then one of your Berettas.

It wouldn't be the Bersa.

bikerdoc
October 10, 2012, 08:51 AM
beatledog7 said
The point is, home defense is far more about mindset than about technology, and includes firearm technology. Use the firearms that you feel are best, but don't neglect layered defense, and--most importantly--pay attention to your way of looking at "defending your home."
Very insightful post.
Mindset, skill set, tool set. in that order. Notice tool set, i.e. firearm selection is last.
Layered defense, properly thought out. (mindset) along with situational awareness is and should be focus one.

As for skill set. How good are you with your chosen weapons? Do you train? Or better yet, how handy are you with tools and installing inexpensive lights, motion sensors, feeding the dog,and hardening doors and windows?
Tool selection.
Inexpensive is relative to individual finances or luck.
I got top end and low cost weapons. The cheapest was my Ruger 357 Police Service Six I was allowed to buy for One Dollar when I retired from the PD. (luck)
People make choices, choices have consequences.
Think, plan, act, refine as you get more education.

So to answer the question, choose what fits you budget, and circumstances, with the thought : what can I do to better prepare to avoid defaulting to gun.

(apologies to all for the rambling on a subject that is important to me, ymmv.)

JustinJ
October 10, 2012, 10:06 AM
If a cheaper gun provides the same level of reliability and effectiveness then sure, there is no problem with using it. But that is only if that is the case.

Realistically i think a more important consideration in a home defense weapon is how it may portray the user's mentality. An AR or AK may be a great home defense weapon but I think one would be better off if a prosecutor were waving around a pistol in front of a jury rather than a military style rifle.

DFM914
October 10, 2012, 10:56 AM
I don't get the whole point of this thread. "Many people carry very expensive firearms" Uh not that I have seen. I don't see hardly anyone carrying around $3000 guns for self defense. I see many people with guns with the avg value of between $400 - $600 price range. I would trust my life with about any of these guns. Sorry, just don't get your point.

saturno_v
October 10, 2012, 01:40 PM
If you're really serious about those concepts, I'd be willing to bet that you would change your carry gun after running through something like a Gunsite 250 course with your Bersa, then your S&W 1006, then one of your Berettas.

It wouldn't be the Bersa.

Do you have any specific personal specific experience where the Bersas are falling apart, unreliable or not accurate?? Do you know that the Thunder full size is actually the service firearms of many Police departments??

saturno_v
October 10, 2012, 01:45 PM
If a cheaper gun provides the same level of reliability and effectiveness then sure, there is no problem with using it. But that is only if that is the case.


Infact that was the premise of my argument


Realistically i think a more important consideration in a home defense weapon is how it may portray the user's mentality. An AR or AK may be a great home defense weapon but I think one would be better off if a prosecutor were waving around a pistol in front of a jury rather than a military style rifle.


That is an EXCELLENT point...nowadays you need to think this issues from many angles.....yes, a jury may see the case in a different light if they see a fancy tactical AR-15 rather than your run the mill Mossberg 500 or Remington 870....sad but that is the reality....

Sharps-shooter
October 10, 2012, 02:39 PM
As far as the jury thing, does that really happen? I have a hard time imagining that they would think deadly force was justified but then take issue with the means of delivering it (sure you had to kill the guy, but tou didnt have to kill him that roughly!) maybe im just being naive.

saturno_v
October 10, 2012, 02:51 PM
As far as the jury thing, does that really happen? I have a hard time imagining that they would think deadly force was justified but then take issue with the means of delivering it (sure you had to kill the guy, but tou didnt have to kill him that roughly!) maybe im just being naive.


It may matter...human nature...too many variables involved.....and you may end up in court anyway not just for the worst case scenario (the perp is dead).....

It may influence their decision if deadly force was necessary in the first place....

Depending even from where you live...for example, in AK it may not matter, in a less gun friendly state it may.....

gym
October 11, 2012, 11:54 PM
Well considering that most 1911's have several non stock parts, unless it was an unmodified colt or Springfield, anyone with a skeletonized hammer or custom trigger, different springs, grips sights, etc, could be accused of altering their gun to make it more deadlly, I think that is a lot of bunk, since many guns being sold now are coming equipped with parts that used to be added on by a gunsmith. Even a 1911 taurus gives you a list of a dozen parts that have been pre modified for you.
IMO that time has past. Unless you are sporting an sbr in full auto mode with a supressor, I really don't see what type of handgun that you have as being a problem, as long as it is legal to own and you are in the right when using it.
I would also argue that changing a sloppy trigger or faulty recoil spring is a necessity to fully take advantage of the safe and reliability of such a weapon should you find yourself in the position of having to save your life or the life of someone else.
Thus having a 5 thousand dollar wilson supergrade, does not make a person more lethal or aggressive only able to afford the luxory of buying a more expensive weapon.
It's kind of like getting run over, does it matter if it was a pick up truck or a ferrari. They will both have the same outcome.
You should make sure your firearms are in the best condition possible, especially if you use that gun for self defense.
My trigger was crap in my lc9 so I changed it, should I leave it sloppy and unsafe, of make it the best it can be? And then we have guns like Glocks and M&P's that have a very good record of functioning out of the box. So perhaps that is the gun to carry if your expensive pistol is a bit finiky or one is afraid to shoot it for fear it will be taken in as evidence.

Renegade Ziggy
October 12, 2012, 03:24 AM
Often the usual question on forums pops out: "Can the whizbang semi-auto military style rifle (take your pick) modified this way be used for home defense??" Other than just the consideration about the danger of losing a potentially precious and hard to replace semi-auto military style (thinking about the current candidates in the upcoming election) who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

Gosh where do I begin..?

Often the usual question on forums pops out: "Can the whizbang semi-auto military style rifle (take your pick) modified this way be used for home defense??"

Really? I don't recall ever hearing that question. Why couldn't it be used for home defense? If it's decked out mall ninja style, who cares, last time I checked it was still a rifle that went bang. I'm sure those gadgets would only serve a purpose for seasoned vets in a full on attack but once again, who cares? If it makes the owner feel comfortable then deck it out. Besides, who are you to say that those gadgets and whizbang guns don't come in handy for people? For me, there's not a price on the safety of my family, with that being said my under a grand hd weapons (dpms, rem 870, glock 40) work fine for me, but If I had the cash to buy a 2 or 3 grand firearm and deck it out for hd, I would in a heartbeat, if it's taken from me and not returned or returned in a beat up way, so be it. At least me and my family are alive and kicking.

who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need

Idk..maybe LEO, Veterans, people who are actually trained with these kinds of firearms. Most hd scenarios involve 2-3 people, I'd rather have my ar any day for that situation, and considering me and the missus don't have children, it makes it all the more easier to use one. And just what is your definition of ordinary people? People who aren't what I mentioned at the top? I believe one of our mods covered this but a lot of those ordinary people aren't able to effectively operate a lever rifle, some may not be able to operate a shotgun, who are you to say that's all they need? Stop trying to lay down guidelines you think people should follow and realize it doesn't matter what the weapon is, as long as it makes the user comfortable and it's effective.

mnrivrat
October 12, 2012, 06:49 AM
The cost of my gun when it comes to the possible loss, after I used it in self defense, is just something I give no thought to.

I would not leave an expensive gun at home and carry a cheaper one for such a reason. Just would not be an issue for me.

gunnutery
October 12, 2012, 07:50 AM
I don't want to lose any of my guns, especially not the most expensive one I have. However, I don't want to lose my life either, more so. If I use a $2000 gun (I don't have one yet) and do my part with it and save my life and that of my family, I would consider the loss of the gun as a fee.

BSA1
October 12, 2012, 09:34 AM
"What is your take on this??"

I try to buy the best quality product my budget will allow, whether it be a vehicle, TV, or firearm.

One of my vehicles is a Chevy 2500HD with the biggest engine Chevy makes. In addition I have added a large heavy duty steel bumper with a brush guard. My wife's favorite vehicle is a full size Dodge Durango. Why? Simple, survivabilty in a accident. It is a proven fact that a bigger vehicle almost always wins when in a accident with a smaller vehicle.

Of course we could both drive smaller cars and play the odds we will never be in a serious accident. Same line of thought for S.D. firearm. Odds are I will never be in a situation requiring use of a firearm so why spend any more money than necessary on a gun?

I think my life and the life of my wife and children is worth more than ANY firearm.

45_auto
October 12, 2012, 09:44 AM
One of my vehicles is a Chevy 2500HD with the biggest engine Chevy makes.

That would be cool. A 2500HD with over 600HP should really move! Did the stock engine die or did you just swap it for something with more performance?

http://www.chevroletperformance.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=ZZ572620&engine=ZZ%20572/620&sku=12498793&engCat=bb

mikefor
October 12, 2012, 10:06 AM
Im certainly no expert, but i would say, use what you think is best. dont forget to think about your surroundings. for example if you live in a duplex,a high powered rifle such as a FN FAL may not be a good idea. if you have kids you may want a shotgun or judge with shot. if you live on a farm and have no kids why not go with a beast of a weapon such as an AK,AR, styer aug or .338 lapua (just kidding about the lapua)

76shuvlinoff
October 12, 2012, 11:47 PM
I gotta be honest here. I have often thought: What if I use it and lose it?

However in the heat of the moment I am quite certain depending on where I am located I won't care if it's the $100 beater Taurus revolver, the $1000 1911 or the $1200 AR. All that should matter at that point is I know they all work and I can run em.

saturno_v
October 13, 2012, 12:50 AM
Really? I don't recall ever hearing that question.

Next time before typing, use the forum search function for 30 seconds...menu green bar, third from the right, labeled as "Search"...

Just the first bunch of them popping out..



http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=680377


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676616&highlight=ar+hd

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646022&highlight=defense

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=633828&highlight=hd

Stop trying to lay down guidelines

I do not lay down any "guidelines", just conversation...for some people maybe it does make sense an AR for defense...

mf-dif
October 13, 2012, 01:20 AM
An old worn surplus hi power is what I use. Goes boom everytime.

Renegade Ziggy
October 13, 2012, 02:08 AM
I do not lay down any "guidelines", just conversation...for some people maybe it does make sense an AR for defense...

That's not what you originally said, you originally said this..

who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

Sounds like guidelines to me..especially considering you don't define ordinary people.

Next time before typing, use the forum search function for 30 seconds...menu green bar, third from the right, labeled as "Search"...

Just the first bunch of them popping out..

You said forums, not THR. Next time be more specific. Not trying to have an E-fight, good thread. Got a lot of people talking.

PT92
October 15, 2012, 01:03 AM
I actually subscribe to that, let's say "school of thought".

Before you say it....yes any firearm that I trust my life to it has to be dead reliable and accurate and you have to be comfortable in shooting it that is a given, I know.

Many people carry very expensive pieces or such pieces are placed for "defence duty" inside the house (nightstands, drawers, etc...)

Often the usual question on forums pops out: "Can the whizbang semi-auto military style rifle (take your pick) modified this way be used for home defense??" Other than just the consideration about the danger of losing a potentially precious and hard to replace semi-auto military style (thinking about the current candidates in the upcoming election) who really need a military rifle to handle most defense situation?? A good shotgun or a handy lever action rifle is all us ordinary people really need....

As you probably already figured out, the "inexpensive firearm for defence" argument is that in the unfortunate event of actually discharing your gun, there is a very good probability that you may lose your weapon or at minimum it could go though some rough handling before being returned to you.....I know in case of legal expenses, that is the least of your problems but why adding up to the ordeal the loss of that Les Baer you spent almost a month of salary to buy?? (yes I know a range master that uses a Les Baer as a concealed carry weapon)

In my case, the 3 pieces that are up for defence duty (carry or home) are among the least expensive firearms of my collection.....a Mossberg 500 shotgun, a Kel Tec P-11 and a Bersa Thunder 40 full size

Again, they are hyper reliable and accurate anI love them but I can afford to lose them without a second thought if the manure hit the proverbial fan....

What is your take on this??

Honestly I do not let this factor into my decision. I figure that if I do (fingers crossed hopefully not) have to use my weapon in a self defense situation resulting in confiscation until such case is resolved, so be it. I figure and believe that my training has been such that my shooting will be "condoned" upon by "The State" thereby resulting "eventually" in the return of MY Gun. So I do have a backup gun just to be sure.

That being said, all of the guns you listed as SD candidates are IMO rock-solid candidates I would indeed stake my life with as well.

-Cheers

Fishslayer
October 15, 2012, 01:09 AM
All three of my bedside guns are out of production but losing one isn't a real worry. The Win 1300 Defender would just get replaced with a Mossberg and I might have an extra handgun around here someplace.;)

If no charges are filed do they still take your weapon?

PT92
October 15, 2012, 01:18 AM
All three of my bedside guns are out of production but losing one isn't a real worry. The Win 1300 Defender would just get replaced with a Mossberg and I might have an extra handgun around here someplace.;)

If no charges are filed do they still take your weapon?

I researched this in my State so I would suggest that you do likewise as perhaps my answer will not apply to you.

Here in MO. (they take your gun by policy if there is a shooting of a perp regardless of circumstances) once the case has been litigated and decided upon rendering you the victim shooter innocent, your gun is returned to you at that point. Problem is, of course, like anything that becomes part of a government "red tape" process one can in no uncertain terms be certain about the time frame of said weapon--hence the critical nature of the BUG.

-Cheers

Rail Driver
October 15, 2012, 01:27 AM
I don't really pay any attention to what my firearms cost when it comes to deciding whether or not to use them for home defense (or self defense for that matter). During the day I carry my S&W 36 (vintage no dash model in factory nickel), and at night I sleep next to my AR15. I'm in the smith for more than I probably should be, and I've got right around $2000 in my rifle. If I ever need to use either for self defense, I'm MOST LIKELY going to get it back if the authorities even take it. I don't intend on shooting someone in a situation where it wouldn't be justified, and I doubt most of you do either - So why worry about the authorities seizing your weapon if you're involved in a "good shoot" ? Seems to me like a pointless thought exercise.

SSN Vet
October 15, 2012, 05:06 PM
Maybe some folks want to defend themselves with style :p

Kind of like some people making sure the house is picked up b4 they go on a trip, because if their plane crashes, they don't want anybody to come into the house and say "oh what a poor housekeeper she was"

Old Fuff
October 15, 2012, 06:36 PM
So why worry about the authorities seizing your weapon if you're involved in a "good shoot" ? Seems to me like a pointless thought exercise.


If you're right, well then you're probably right. But on the other hand "the authorities" may not see things the same way you do. Then if you end up in a court room (criminal or civil) an attorney may point out to the jury that you were not satisfied with an ordinary evil black rifle, but had one enhanced to make it an exceptionally extra-good killing machine - that you couldn't wait to try out. Now if the jury was made up of fine upstanding members of this forum, and the judge was like minded you'd come out fine. But if their mindset had been formed by reading or watching TV talking heads in the mainstream media you could end up in a world of hurt. Personally, I think you might be able to make a better choice, and depending on where you live it might be that the .223 cartridge offers more penetration then might be advisable. :uhoh:

akodo
October 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
My view:

Own what you want to own.

If you happen to use the gun in self defense, be prepared to lose that gun forever, even if it is a $2000 gun. HOWEVER realize that the cost of replacing the gun is going to be the least of your financial worries. Plan on spending $20,000 on a lawyer if you discharge your gun in self-defense. That kind of puts the price of a new Les Baer in perspective.

ADDITIONALLY you should be practicing with whatever gun you choose. Going bi-monthly to the range, in less than a year you'd probably spend as much on ammo, range time and other similar costs as the purchase price of the inexpensive guns listed. Over 10 years the cost of an 'expensive' gun when compared to regular outings to the range becomes a lot less significant as a part of overall gun ownership and preparation.

Old Fuff
October 16, 2012, 06:35 PM
If you happen to use the gun in self defense, be prepared to lose that gun forever, even if it is a $2000 gun. HOWEVER realize that the cost of replacing the gun is going to be the least of your financial worries. Plan on spending $20,000 on a lawyer if you discharge your gun in self-defense. That kind of puts the price of a new Les Baer in perspective.

Not really. You are confused between "inexpensive" vs. "cheap" or "low quality." While the (expensive) example - a Les Baer custom 1911 pistol - will shoot tighter groups at longer ranges then a less expensive pistol of the same kind, it doesn't necessarily give one an advantage in a gunfight or home defense situation. Polymer frame pistols, such as the Glock or S&W M&P line have proven to be reliable during tests using amounts of ammunition few average home owners could afford.

A used but not abused Smith & Wesson model 10, 13, 15, or 19 (including stainless versions of the same models) cost a fraction of what the high-end custom 1911 pistols go for, but they're reliability is well proven over decades of use. Inexpensive they often are, but they are neither cheap nor low quality.

akodo
October 16, 2012, 07:28 PM
Not really. You are confused between "inexpensive" vs. "cheap" or "low quality." While the (expensive) example - a Les Baer custom 1911 pistol - will shoot tighter groups at longer ranges then a less expensive pistol of the same kind, it doesn't necessarily give one an advantage in a gunfight or home defense situation. Polymer frame pistols, such as the Glock or S&W M&P line have proven to be reliable during tests using amounts of ammunition few average home owners could afford.

A used but not abused Smith & Wesson model 10, 13, 15, or 19 (including stainless versions of the same models) cost a fraction of what the high-end custom 1911 pistols go for, but they're reliability is well proven over decades of use. Inexpensive they often are, but they are neither cheap nor low quality.

No, I am not. Re-read my post.

I am saying that if a gun is used in self defense, and the gun gets seized, the legal bills will dwarf the cost of the gun, be it at the high end or the low end of the spectrum, thereby making any price worries totally misplaced. Any poster trying to save money in case of a shooting should spend more time on getting insurance and/or finding the the least expensive competent attorney than worry about replacement costs of firearms held in evidence.

Aside from a gun whose value is extreme due to it's historic significance (If you were the one who won Clyde Barrow's 1911, don't CCW with it) the price-tag of the gun is inconsequential.

I also point out that over a 10 or 20 year period, the cost of having a gun for self defense is more than just the initial purchase point of the gun. Ammo, range fees, cleaning supplies, etc. add up over time. This means the financial difference between a $1000 handgun and a $500 handgun becomes a lot less pronounced when you look at it as part of your self defense system. The expensive gun has a 10 year system cost of $8000 and the cheaper gun has a system cost of $7500.

Also note that cheap = low quality is only one of many definitions of the word. Clearly when people talk of expensive vs cheap they are talking about two ends of the price spectrum. You can get low quality products at all price levels, including firearms.

r1derbike
October 16, 2012, 09:59 PM
Hmmm. Never thought about the jury negative bias with carbines. Guess I'll just have to use my little ol' XDs in times of duress.

Petty thieves breaking into homes are usually dealt with the same as raging homicidal maniacs, provided you get the home court advantage, here in AR.

What you really need to watch-out for, is the knock at the door, with the "I just broke-down a few miles down the road...could I use your phone", or dozens of other meet you at the door scenarios.

Nothing like a CC (my XDs) in a sticky holster somewhere on me, just in case, when I open the door.

In fact, tonight, my wife answered the door to a lady who offered to clean the carpets for free, as she and her workers were doing some market research, and she still would get paid for her work by the company. I already had my comfort by my side, while the blowoff was delivered.

Take care out there.

wgaynor
October 16, 2012, 10:44 PM
As long as it works, I don't care about the price.

I'd rather wear Goodwill clothing than go naked. I'd rather drive my 1995 toyota pickup that has been wrecked 4 times than have to walk to work. I'd rather carry a hi-point c9 or a kel-tec pf9 than to have to defend myself with my cane.

There is a difference between cheap and poor quality.

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