[Balrog]

As proposed by Jeff Cooper?

A light short barreled close range high volume magazine fed carbine seems like it would be nice for home defense. Why has no one ever developed such a weapon commercially?

[meanmrmustard]

As proposed by Jeff Cooper?

A light short barreled close range high volume magazine fed carbine seems like it would be nice for home defense. Why has no one ever developed such a weapon commercially?
They did. KT Sub2K in .40s&w with hi cap Glock mags.

[Balrog]

Yea I have a 9mm sub2K. It sort of is in that niche, but feels more like a survival rifle than a main weapon.

[meanmrmustard]

Ok, sounds like I'm a fanboy, I assure you I'm not. Another commercial rifle would be the SU-16. Light, 16" barrel, takes AR mags, chrome lined bore.

The rifle you speak of, that falls into every criterium Cooper suggested has been met.

AR-15.

[allaroundhunter]

The rifle you speak of, that falls into every criterium Cooper suggested has been met.

AR-15.

You beat me to it....while it might not be what everyone wants to hear, it is the answer.

[303tom]

As proposed by Jeff Cooper?

A light short barreled close range high volume magazine fed carbine seems like it would be nice for home defense. Why has no one ever developed such a weapon commercially?
What the heck is this ?

http://www.coreth.com/~mpearce/firearms/collection/Thompson1927A1.html

[Girodin]

As proposed by Jeff Cooper?

A light short barreled close range high volume magazine fed carbine seems like it would be nice for home defense. Why has no one ever developed such a weapon commercially?

Not only does this exist, but there are a number of options. You can get an AR in 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, or 450 bushmaster. The latter even advertises as being the rifle cooper imagined.

[Balrog]

Not only does this exist, but there are a number of options. You can get an AR in 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, or 450 bushmaster. The latter even advertises as being the rifle cooper imagined.

Wouldnt all those cartridges be longer than 44 mag, and therefore make the carbine longer than it had to be?

[horsemen61]

my idea of "thumper" is the marlin camp carbines

[allaroundhunter]

Wouldnt all those cartridges be longer than 44 mag, and therefore make the carbine longer than it had to be?

They can all be in a form designated as a "carbine" size.... But if that is still to long you can make it "pistol" size and be smaller than a .44 mag carbine.

The reason no (or few) box magazine carbines are made in .44 or .357 mag is because their rimmed case makes feeding from a box magazine less than reliable.

If you want another pistol caliber carbine, there is also the Beretta CX4 carbine.

Sent from my HTC One X

[ArfinGreebly]

I have a CX4 in 9mm.

Short, light, high-ish capacity. Designed for home defense.

Also available in .40 or .45 caliber.

That qualify?

[Warp]

As proposed by Jeff Cooper?

A light short barreled close range high volume magazine fed carbine seems like it would be nice for home defense. Why has no one ever developed such a weapon commercially?

Sounds like an AR15 to me

[MachIVshooter]

The rifle you speak of, that falls into every criterium Cooper suggested has been met.

AR-15.

You beat me to it....while it might not be what everyone wants to hear, it is the answer.

My instant thought as well.

Wouldnt all those cartridges be longer than 44 mag, and therefore make the carbine longer than it had to be?

How short do ya want it?

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3260/2589082714_939c3ec422_z.jpg?zz=1

http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfa-sbr.jpg

http://ar15builder.net/images/system/norm.php?G85F9-00-8-28-07-151.jpg

[nyc71]

173233
Any question?

[MachIVshooter]

Any question?

.458 Socomhttp://www.messentools.com/images/emoticones/humor/www.MessenTools.com-emoticones-humor-012.gif (http://www.messentools.com/en/msn-emoticon-details-and-download/id/2279/)

http://www.cartrology.com/ctg-images/large/432-s.jpg

'Nuff said :neener:

[Girodin]

Wouldnt all those cartridges be longer than 44 mag, and therefore make the carbine longer than it had to be?

As the pics above show, you can have an AR that is rather compact. If you can legally own an SBR, you can have a very short gun. Even if not a 14.5" gun with a pinned muzzle device is still far from unwieldy. I believe an AR with 16" of barrel and a collapsed stock tends to be around 31" OAL. Which means stock collapsed an 8" SBR should be like 23" I know they tend to be around 27 with stock extended. I believe my AUG measured just over 28". Too bad they don't offer quick change barrels for them in 300 BLK and/or 458 SOCOM. That would be sweet. Its too bad Microtech went under, I could see them doing it. A sub 2K is short indeed, it is 29.5" according to kel tecs website. It also is not a real hard use gun. I say that as an owner.

In short, one can still have a very handy carbine chambered in those rounds.

[Gtscotty]

I think a Glock 20 with a MechTech upper and a few 15 rd mags would make a pretty convincing thumper.

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

Hows about a carbine from Thureon defense in 10mm ? http://www.thureondefense.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=7

[meanmrmustard]

173233
Any question?
.458 also recoils substantially out of the platform it was designed for. 12 gauge-like kick, albeit recoil is very subjective, out of a rifle as light as the AR-15 means you'd probably better hit what you aim at the first time, as you may not get fast enough follow up shots to hit again. I'll take that 556 please.

[fatcat4620]

173233
Any question?
Great pic but with 10 round mags you fail the high capacity test.

[nyc71]

6.8 is not a thumper but everything the 556 is plus more. The only drawback is ammo price then again most 556 owners don't shoot their rifles as often as they like.

[NG VI]

Not only does this exist, but there are a number of options. You can get an AR in 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, or 450 bushmaster. The latter even advertises as being the rifle cooper imagined.

That's what I immediately thought of as well, though the traditional chambering is probably a better option for defense in pretty much every way.

[Batty67]

Back to a nice semi-auto carbine in 10mm that is not an AR platform.

[earplug]

Recently I read about the Russian 9MMx39 and thought about COL Coopers thumper.
I think the Russian rifles name is VSS and it has a integral suppressor. Would be perfect as a hearing friendly thumper.
Its designed for close range sniping.

[Batty67]

I REALLY enjoyed shooting my FBI buddy's MP5 in 10mm with one and two round fire selection. Too bad I could never get hold of one...

[fatcat4620]

What about a SBS converted saiga 12 with 20 round drum?

[M1key]

Back to a nice semi-auto carbine in 10mm that is not an AR platform.
My thoughts exactly. One that takes also Glock 20 mags would be great...

M

[Warp]

6.8 is not a thumper but everything the 556 is plus more. The only drawback is ammo price then again most 556 owners don't shoot their rifles as often as they like.

Making ammo significantly more expensive, and less common, won't lead people to shoot more.

[henschman]

A short-barreled AR in .50 Beowulf, .458 SOCOM, or .450 Bushmaster fits the bill about perfectly.

Of course a lightweight, high velocity round like 5.56 is plenty effective, and has less recoil longer effective range, and higher capacity to boot, which makes more sense to me for the carbine/PDW role than a big heavy thumper round.

[rondog]

My "Thumpers". .30 Carbine and .44 Magnum.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20M1%20carbines/DSC_0494.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20M1%20carbines/wallcropped.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20other%20rifles%20and%20long%20guns/trapper01.jpg

[highlander 5]

I seem to remember someone trying to sell an M1 Carbine converted to 45 Win mag,but the project never seemed to get out of the idea stage. My first thought was the 450 Bushmaster when I read the description.

[RPRNY]

What about a SBS converted saiga 12 with 20 round drum?

I don't know what Jeff Cooper would have made of it, but that's sure as hell a Thumper in my books! It will most certainly fall foul of the "lightweight" requirement however.

[Cosmoline]

I think the Russian rifles name is VSS and it has a integral suppressor. Would be perfect as a hearing friendly thumper.

It's an interesting round but so far I haven't seen it in the flesh or seen much re. its performance. I did use it to good effect against mutants in STALKER, though ;-)

[JustinJ]

Without a can a rifle caliber cartridge in a short barrel rifle is a pretty terrible home defense weapon unless one believes a potential for disorientation during a defensive scenario is a good thing.

[Certaindeaf]

How about those old .351 and .401 Winchester autoloaders. Pretty neat rigs.

[Derek Zeanah]

I'm kind of turned on by the idea of a .458 SOCOM in a suppressed SBR configuration. I've never shot one though, and can't comment on how well it shoots.

To me, this is the closest to Cooper's Thumper that I've seen.

[Girodin]

.458 also recoils substantially out of the platform it was designed for. 12 gauge-like kick, albeit recoil is very subjective, out of a rifle as light as the AR-15 means you'd probably better hit what you aim at the first time, as you may not get fast enough follow up shots to hit again. I'll take that 556 please.

Have you shot one? Its not a 5.56 (and of course doesn't hit like one on the other end). It is far from uncontrollable or something that one cannot make follow up shots with. The ability to make follow ups is going to be mostly a matter of shooting technique. This is a beowulf but you get the idea. The guy in the video below doesn't appear to have anything approaching the worlds best technique and you'll note he is hardly being tossed around. It is not as fast as you'll see folks shooting a 5.56 but its not even as fast as you can shoot the big bores either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dofPOFM8i4k&feature=fvwp&NR=1

For SD, general combat, and most things I'd gladly take 5.56 or if I wanted to step it up, I'd rather a 6.8 SPCII or a .308. However, if one is envisioning coopers "Thumper" these cartridges are closer to the 1800 FPS from a 10" barrel, optimistically to be had from a 44 auto mag, that Cooper wrote of. Cooper did call for a folding stock, so maybe one of the Sig 556 guns Tony Rumore converted to 458 SOCOM would be better (although I think that project was abandoned as I haven't heard anything about it in a long time). The SOCOM et al also tend to fail the 20 round box mag requirement.



Great pic but with 10 round mags you fail the high capacity test.

You just need this. It gives you 30 rounds BTW I am being factious so please don't waste time telling me all the reasons it is impractical. I know. I suppose a smaller drum, along the lines of the saiga 10 round drums could be made that wouldn't be so unwieldy and would offer a capacity increase. For tasks I'd use a .458 SOCOM for, I personally am content with 10 rounds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/kjhof/IMG_0307.jpg

[meanmrmustard]

Have you shot one? Its not a 5.56 (and of course doesn't hit like one on the other end). It is far from uncontrollable or something that one cannot make follow up shots with. The ability to make follow ups is going to be mostly a matter of shooting technique. This is a beowulf but you get the idea. The guy in the video below doesn't appear to have anything approaching the worlds best technique and you'll note he is hardly being tossed around. It is not as fast as you'll see folks shooting a 5.56 but its not even as fast as you can shoot the big bores either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dofPOFM8i4k&feature=fvwp&NR=1

For SD, general combat, and most things I'd gladly take 5.56 or if I wanted to step it up, I'd rather a 6.8 SPCII or a .308. However, if one is envisioning coopers "Thumper" these cartridges are closer to the 1800 FPS from a 10" barrel, optimistically to be had from a 44 auto mag, that Cooper wrote of. Cooper did call for a folding stock, so maybe one of the Sig 556 guns Tony Rumore converted to 458 SOCOM would be better (although I think that project was abandoned as I haven't heard anything about it in a long time). The SOCOM et al also tend to fail the 20 round box mag requirement.





You just need this. It gives you 30 rounds BTW I am being factious so please don't waste time telling me all the reasons it is impractical. I know. I suppose a smaller drum, along the lines of the saiga 10 round drums could be made that wouldn't be so unwieldy and would offer a capacity increase. For tasks I'd use a .458 SOCOM for, I personally am content with 10 rounds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/kjhof/IMG_0307.jpgYes I have. My statement wasn't an opinion. Recoil is subjective, and to me there's better rounds for the HD role. Personally, I don't prefer a rifle for that cause indoors, but I like 556 for that purpose. I can fire it quickly, accurately, and if I'm already at a high stress level, I need those two things in order to save some bacon. The recoil of the 458 isn't bothersome physically, but I find it hard to connect for more than one shot. That's me, ymmv. Or maybe I suck, but not with 556.

How the gent in the video shoots has no bearing on how I shoot. He isn't being shot at, harassed, or threatened. His family isn't counting on making the hits count, and I'm going to blatantly assume he's not experiencing the stress issued from altercation. Stress, close quarters, possible darkness, and situational self awareness are things that come up in an HD scenario. I don't want to combat muzzle rise and target acquisition as well. In that case, the 556 "thumps" plenty for this shooter.:)

I have not, however, shot the .50 Beowulf. :(

[Walkalong]

.300 BLK Carbine

Naturally I would have a different sighting system. The scope on it now is for some accuracy testing. It can switch from AR to AR quickly.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173042&d=1349617135

[Double Naught Spy]

What the heck is this ?

http://www.coreth.com/~mpearce/firea...son1927A1.html

At nearly 11 lbs (empty), not a lightweight gun.

[KAMAK]

kriss super v.
http://www.kriss-usa.com/products/carbines/vector-crb-45-acp

[doc2rn]

FNH P90 might qualify...or any bullpup configuration.

[Swing]

I seem to remember someone trying to sell an M1 Carbine converted to 45 Win mag,but the project never seemed to get out of the idea stage.

I think that was Le Mag back in the '90s. IIRC, they also produced a .50AE version.

[tactikel]

Rondog, I love it! 45 rounds of .30 ball, then cold steel:evil:
My choice would also be a Saiga 12 ga with slugs, now that is a THUMPER !!

[Walkalong]

Knock your self out. :)

[tactikel]

Twinny, I'm not sure how discussing committing a felony ties in with a discussion about Jeff Cooper's idea of a HD rifle.
This is THR.

[meanmrmustard]

I'd rob a bag man for the mob, if I knew when and where he was, and if he was toting enough money. :-) They don't scare me a bit. How the hell would they even know who to look for, in the first place? In the second place, I wouldn't do it for less than 1/2 million $, cause it's all about leave the US and change your face, any serious felony, and to do all that, I'd want enough money to retire upon, in the third world.
What the hell? Do you realize that you're on a firearms forum? Cocaine is a hell of a drug!

[d2wing]

It's called a tactical shotgun. The problem with the .30 carbine was lack of effectiveness especially at more than 30 yards, same with shotgun. Not great for combat but best for home defense.

[Girodin]

I don't disagree at all that on a balance 5.56 is better suited for HD than 458/50 beowulf etc. I wouldn't feel bad if all I had was a SOCOM, but I wouldn't replace my 5.56 guns with one for that purpose.

Not great for combat but best for home defense.

It is far from settled that a shotgun is "best" for HD. In fact, the only advantage a shotgun has over many other options is price and power. When talking "best" I give little weight to price, but I recognize for some it could be very important in what they can actually get. The power advantage of the shotgun also comes with several drawbacks.

[Warp]

My HD shotgun has been replaced by my AR

[lemaymiami]

Although I prefer a standard issue riot gun for close quarters work... I've often thought that the combination of a GI carbine (or it's equivalent in weight, dimensions, and overall ease of handling) chambered for something with the ballistics of 44mag would make a fine close quarters weapon. Until it's available (since this is mostly in the "wished for" range), any GI carbine loaded with softpoints is a solid, practical alternative. The closest modern item available to purchase might just be a Mini 30 Tactical.... It's the right dimensions and the round (in soft point, again) would certainly be effective..

[ugaarguy]

I've often thought that the combination of a GI carbine (or it's equivalent in weight, dimensions, and overall ease of handling) chambered for something with the ballistics of 44mag would make a fine close quarters weapon. Until it's available (since this is mostly in the "wished for" range), any GI carbine loaded with softpoints is a solid, practical alternative.
An M4gery in 50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM or 450 Bushmaster doesn't meet that criteria how?

[USSR]

Hello Thumper.

Don
http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/M1A1a.jpg

[kBob]

The Le mag was built and some sold. A friend had one and he discribed the recoil in that modified M-1 carbine as brisk. He had some sort of parts breakage that rendered the gun unsafe is all I remember.

A carbine mod I was once interested in was one that used cut down .223 blown out to saccept .357 mag bullets and loaded to match .357 Magnum revolver specs. This was to be backed up with a S&W K or N frame in .357 that had its cylinder slightly shortened to use these carbine rounds in moon clips.

As to The Colonel...

Col Cooper wanted the gun to have some sort of muzzle actuated system I guess like the old Bang and such. He did not care for AR, llungman, or French whatever gas system. I did some concept drawings (very crude) for a "family member" that showed them to him and got no comments back I also did a concept for a different stock feed system to allow easy topping off on the scout rifle.

The .44 Automag was the cartridge he was interested in at one point for Thumper. I think that either of the RUger .44 mag carbines comes close except for the high capacity aspect. I wondered some time ago if either could be converted to a .44 Automag using a removable 15 to 20 round magazine.

I wonder if a Mini14 might not be converted to 10mm and the Olyimpic magazines for their AR conversion work in......

I have often wondered why a plastic belt system like used in some .22 LR high cap magazines could not be made for .357 or .44 Magnum revolver rounds. ALso I wondered why a semi circular single feed magazine like on the ChauChat CSRG1915 might not work for a revolver cartidge firing semi auto rifle.

Fortunately for the gun world I am not rediculously wealthy and wasting ammo and guns on my ponderings.......

-kBob

[wulfbyte]

Just so everyone knows what is being discussed:
From "To Ride, Shoot Straight....."

18" long with stock folder
4.5 pounds unloaded Ghostring sights
Clean trigger
Chambered for .44 AutoMag (claiming a very unrealistic 1800 f/s from a 10" bbl)*
Uses "advanced muzzle braking system" that both unlocks the action and pulls weapon forward thus mitigating recoil
20 rd box mag
Semiauto only

* one might get 1600 f/s as a max load gives 1485 from a 7.5" bbl

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip

Vol. 4, No. 6 May, 1996



Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip

Vol. 9, No. 10 September 11, 2001

Various people are attempting to set up an M16, or something similar, to take
what amounts to a giant pistol cartridge - and to call the result "Thumper."
We intended this term to apply to a more efficient order of infantry sidearm, but
the concept calls for more than just a major caliber M16. While it is true that a
very powerful, large bore, short-range, pistol-type cartridge might be just what
the modern infantryman needs, he also needs less weight and less bulk. The configuration
of the unlamented US 30 caliber carbine seems pretty good, and today Ruger makes that
piece up in 44 Magnum. That appears to be about as close to "Thumper" as we are likely
to get, since to make the weapon a success it needs to be ordered in large quantities
by governments, and governments are not pulling in that direction at this time.
This sort of weapon has certain utility in the sporting field, but in no sense matches
the Steyr Scout. Remember that "Thumper" is a government gun, whereas the Scout is
an all-purpose item.

[d2wing]

I can't imagine anyone taking his suggestion that a pistol cartridge weapon would be useful to an infantry soldier. I can just see some idiot telling St Peter that it isn't fair, my enemy did not let me get close enough to shoot him.
That is not a well thought out idea.

[Il Duca]

One of the folding stock AK's might fit the bill. A little fatter than the 4.5lbs mentioned and definately not a 44AM but I think it would be a closer fit than an M4 or something. An under or side folder. Heck, maybe even something like the Draco.

[jeepnik]

Short barrel and large caliber I can understand. But, the need for a high volume of fire eludes me. Maybe if you live in a rural area and are expecting to have to defend the homestead against a biker gang, ok.

But most Americans live in urban areas. In this type of situation, a high volume of fire would tend to endanger innocents. Fewer well aimed shots would seem to be what is called for, and more responsible.

To that end, here's my thumper. Caliber 45-70. You can't thump much harder than that.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/Jeepnik/GUNS/MarlinSlingButtCuff.jpg

[kingcheese]

Ar15,mini 14, mini 30, saigas, Thompso, mp5 clones, uzis, countless others, so i think its covered, if none of those fill the role, it probably is not possible

[ExAgoradzo]

1. Love the 1895 45-70 and jealous of the ammo on the strap: gotta get that!
2. If we really are talking about the HD situation I thought we were, then the MechTech 1911 conversion seems to be as much as anyone needs (or take your 9mm carbine if you want :) ).
3. If we are talking more generally of SD (instead of merely HD) I think the AR guys have the cake: how do you beat the range of uppers available and at all different calibers. Only speaking from 'paper' knowledge, it seems to me that the 6.8 has all the best advantages with the only disadvantage being the unavailability (ameliorated somewhat by the Net and rolling your own).
Greg