[docsleepy]

Have an accessible but hidden area under staircase and thinking about hardening it and adding custom vault door.

Would like advise or cautions

Big advantage is that it can be completely concealed easily

Goal is to protect against theft and fire

Approx 3 feet high. 3 feet wide and 5 or more feet deep as height slopes downward. Rifles would go horizontal.

Slab underneath. Wood 2x4s on sides. Wooden steps above


Considering
- 2 thicknesses of 5/8 in fire rated dry wall nailed to wood sides and staircase
- brick (is cement and rebar filled block better?) masonry inside drywall
- water filled mattress of some sort to steam and limit temp
- important papers in something waterproof
- custom door with steel and stainless steel to decrease thermal attack ease

Comments?

[ghoster]

Basicly all drywall is fire retardent, can't rember the ratings but a single sheet of 1/2 gives a 20 min. rating between garage and home. Several layers would give you plenty of protection. No need for water as it would just add moisture causing rust.

[CoRoMo]

I don't understand the need for a custom steel 'vault' door.

If someone finds that door, they will know something valuable is just on the other side of two sheets of drywall (no tools necessary).

Right?

[docsleepy]

The idea is to put brick or concrete block masonry inside the drywall. That is to give more protection against attack. The drywall is just for fire protection.

[Certaindeaf]

I'd go good safe instead of Hobbit hole. Have good insurance and records too. knock on wood

[MErl]

a hammer will get through brick or block pretty fast.

Good place to stash a short safe, if you want to put guns there... maybe a couple of these? don't know of any other/larger horizontal storage options.
http://www.ftknox.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=59

[docsleepy]

Ah, Very good input! If I poured concrete and rebar's into cement blocks does that make them proof against hammers? How can plasma cutters be defeated?

[firesky101]

How can plasma cutters be defeated?

Not very easily. I can break into any safe given enough time, your defense is a quality alarm that robs them of that time.

[buck460XVR]

Buy a safe. In the long run it will be cheaper and more secure than anything an average home owner can build by themselves.

[MErl]

tightly spaced rebar reinforced concrete would stop hammers. I'd think you would be getting into the price area of having a custom steel box made by that point though. less disruptive to install as well.
Find a fire safe that would fit in there and have the back cut off and a piece welded on?

[Certaindeaf]

When a house burns down, about the only thing standing is like the chimney.
You'd have to really Rube Goldberg it to actually make it collapse proof/fire proof and sledge resisant.

[rayatphonix]

I'm in the process of building a gun vault also. I've thought about putting mine under the stairs, but I've got an A/C duct under there. Here's the deal:

I'm using 8" block filled with concrete and rebar tying the layers together. The rebar is drilled and epoxied into the existing concrete foundation so the blocks can't be dislodged from the foundation. The "roof" is 4" of concrete the wire mesh tied into the sidwalls. As the roof is located about 6" under the floor joists, it's virtually impossible to get a hammer on it.

The door is 1/2" steel plate with 2 high quality padlocks keeping it closed. Padlocks are recessed so you can't get a saw or hammer on them. I investigated buying a door from a vault company but balked at the $2000 price tag (cheapest I could find).

As I'm doing the work myself I figure I'll have about $1000 in materials. I got the idea from a local gun shop. I asked what kind of safe they used and they showed me their room. I'm confident this is as or more secure than a safe costing several thousand dollars. Compared to a $1000 safe, it's much more secure. Fire protection is OK, but that's not high on my priority list.



If you're willing to put in the time and effort I believe you can build a very secure safe room.

[Owen Sparks]

If thieves don't know you have a safe they will not come prepared with the heavy tools needed to breech it. Make sure that whatever you build does not look like a safe or vault to nosey visitors and service people who might talk. People who proudly display their fancy safes are just asking for it. Even if the thieves can't get it open they may ruin it trying. I posted on another thread about an incident near my town where burglars tried to open a safe with a cutting torch. The safe held but was permanently welded shut. Not only did the victim have to pay a locksmith big bucks to cut the safe open and haul it to the scrap yard, he practically had to remodel his house because the carpet and paint were ruined from all the smoke. To add insult to injury the warranty on his safe was voided because it technically did not fail even though it was ruined. The safest safe is the one nobody knows about because it is HIDDEN.

[docsleepy]

Wow. Great information. Thanks for all the ideas. Gives me lots of options .

[Jeff H]

The safest safe is the one nobody knows about because it is HIDDEN.

Good advice given here. My safe is in a closet hidden behind a deadbolted door in the basement. Any visitors who might see the locked door can assume what they want, but I doubt that many would suspect that there was a full blown safe inside the locked door. Not to mention that the safe is larger than the door opening so it can't be removed without taking the wall out as well ( I built the safe in the closet when I built the room). It is virtually impossible to get enough leverage to pry the door open since it is deep in the closet.

Also, don't spend too much time worrying about plasma cutters. They require a healthy amount of electricity ( more than your outlets) and an air compressor. I doubt many burglars will bring all that with them.

[Certaindeaf]

The door is 1/2" steel plate with 2 high quality padlocks keeping it closed. Padlocks are recessed so you can't get a saw or hammer on them..
I'm sure it's pretty sweet but a couple shots with a 30-06 would smithereen those locks and or hasps I'm sure. However, I was dinking around the net years ago and saw some crazy padlock for like $10-30,000 - I really forget exactly how much but it was crazy.

[captain awesome]

The door is 1/2" steel plate with 2 high quality padlocks keeping it closed. Padlocks are recessed so you can't get a saw or hammer on them..

padlocks are no match for a good pry bar. and a dremel can probably get in the recess too. Not trying to shoot you down, just making points to consider.

[crazy-mp]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTg7PZ6_kGPjzxGPJkOf2bxS0ZFnJpsNWLxdXVjmwMi9D3pU3m9cQ

If a criminal has one of these and they know where to cut on the safe, they can get in literally in minutes, I can cut through almost anything with a basic metal wheel attached, but they make specialty wheels for harder surfaces.

[docsleepy]

So I'm getting the basic idea that there is NO safe that is impenetrable.

The best idea is to conceal the fact that you have one, so that they either don't find it or never bring the proper tools that WOULD be able to break into it.

Apparently even a multi-thousand dollar commercial safe can be easily gotten into by someone who is properly equipped. Right?

[Owen Sparks]

If a criminal has one of these and they know where to cut on the safe, they can get in literally in minutes,

Exactly my point. If the bad guys have not heard about your safe they will not likely bring something that heavy with them. Word of a safe or vault makes you a high profile target for the real professional thieves who could get it open. Keep your mouth shut and your safe hidden.

[dprice3844444]

it's just there to keep the honest folks honest and to save the goods from fire

[CoRoMo]

My bad, I didn't see the brick layer in the options. That certainly can't be penetrated without tools.

[Owen Sparks]

The vast majority of break-ins are not by committed by professionals.
They are committed by lazy people who want something for little effort and are willing to take a risk rather than work. They are typically young, poor, drug or alcohol users and not very bright. Here is a link describing the profile of the typical burglar:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=101697

These are not the sort of people you have to worry about. If one of these common burglars happens to find your safe he will be unprepared and it will be more than adequate to protect your guns.

The danger lies with the professional thief who will specificly target your home because he KNOWS that you have something of value. He is likely to have studied the ‘job’ thoroughly, he will know your routine and when you are not home. He will come prepared with the proper tools and a police radio scanner. He will get in and out very quickly and focus only on his objective, your safe or vault and not bother with your TV or sterio. He will likely be involved with organized crime and have connections with a fence who will sell your stolen guns out of state, maybe even out of the country. The only way to prepair for this sort of burglar is to make sure that NOBODY is telling stories about the big fancy safe you have cleverly built under your stairs, or your extensive gun collection.

[Jorg]

So I'm getting the basic idea that there is NO safe that is impenetrable.
Correct.

In physical security, the categories of countermeasures include deter, delay, and detect. Depending on who is describing it, it could also be deter, delay, detect, deny; deter, delay, detect, deny, defend; or deter, deny, detect, delay, detain.

Safes and vaults are primarily delaying countermeasures. While the presence of one might be a deterrent to a few, their value really comes from delaying the adversary. As far as being burgled, the utility of a safe only really exists when the time and effort it takes to get in it exceeds the time and effort an adversary is willing to expend trying to get in. That ties directly to the adversary's knowledge, motivation, and availability of tools needed.

[HankR]

If thieves don't know you have a safe they will not come prepared with the heavy tools needed to breech it

Unfortunately, I have all of those tools out in the shop building, and they aren't locked up. They're also probably worth more than my meagre gun collection.

[303tom]

I built mine out of 2x6`s, concrete board & sheet metal................

[BSA1]

If I remember my commercial building codes 2 layers of 5/8" GWB Type X will give you 45 minutes of fire protection. However in commercial buildings the sheetrock is used for vertical walls and metal studs.

Certaindeaf has it right. In a fire everything is going to fall into a pile of a hot bed of burning coals, ashes and debris that is going to need a lot of water and time to cool down. If in the basement it is going to fill up with several inches (or more?) of water that the fire department pumps onto the fire. Either way it is going to be a long time before you will be able to try to recover any valuables.

Trust me. We lost just about everything in a fire once and there is little left.

I am considering installing above ground safe room in the garage of the next home we buy even if the house has a basement. A above ground safe room can be multi-functional as a tornado shelter, vault for storage of guns and valuables such as jewelry, coins, and protection against intruders.

It avoids all of the problems with valuables in the basement in the event of fire and is handicap assessable. When you compare the cost of a safe room to two good quality gun safes the safe room imho is a much better value.

A good builder can help you come up with solution for your particular home.

[oneounceload]

For horizontal-style positioning, you might also look at one of those Knaack job site tool boxes and bolt it down

http://www.knaack.com/jobsite_storage_equipment/view_products.php?p_id=55

Then customize the interior

[Randall53]

I'd buy a safe with a tested time rating and warranty and be done with it. there are many good ones out there.

[docsleepy]

I ended up putting in 2 thicknesses of fire rated drywall inside the underside of the stairs, a 75 min rated commercial safe with relockers and making doors with fire rated drywall on the inside , a nondescript utility lock and it all disappears. Kept it completely secret and doors stay closed.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

If you can bring enough force and have enough time, any safe can be compromised. After all, we got into all the government vaults in Iraq, no? Re post #13, simply insure the safe itself, let the insurance company pay me to repair or have the unit replaced. If the unit is good enough, there may be no need to insure, and list, the contents, but do insure the safe.

I sell safes, not Residential Security Containers. We can also do vault doors, and do them in custom sizes. But, for a custom vault door that's worth a hoot, $2,000.00 is the down payment.

Oh, and if you do the concrete block with rebar & pour, I wouldn't worry too much about adding layers of gypsum wall board. Basically it's a flame barrier, not dense enough to be a real good heat sink. Adding it beyond the block, bar, and pour would be more trouble than it's worth.

900F

[cassandrasdaddy]

get the fiberglass fibers in your concrete. its a real fun job to break once it cures.