why so many 'cops' in DC with revolvers


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wtr100
October 10, 2012, 05:39 PM
In DC with #2 son's field trip and one of my favorite pass times is cop watching. There's everthing from 'Coperator' to 70's double knit. A lot of Sig and Glocks to be seen for sure. What struck me is how many were wearing wheel guns. The only place I see those any more are some old school Chicago PD guys

what gives?

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ClickClickD'oh
October 10, 2012, 05:40 PM
Are you sure they aren't "Special Police" wearing wheel guns... because if they are, those aren't police at all but DCs creative name for armed security guards... who pretty much have the choice of wheel gun or wheel gun (with a few exceptions).

wtr100
October 10, 2012, 05:42 PM
Are you sure they aren't "Special Police" wearing wheel guns... because if they are, those aren't police at all but DCs creative name for armed security guards... who pretty much have the choice of wheel gun or wheel gun (with a few exceptions).
well they we're a little on the er XXL end of the spectrum so you may be right - are they at least loaded?

k_dawg
October 10, 2012, 07:33 PM
Well, we certainly would not want to spook the sheeple in gov't by seeing nasty 'machine gun pistols'!

Shovelhead
October 10, 2012, 07:44 PM
If they use the same training and tactics as the New York cops did recently, it might be to limit the number of innocent civilians wounded.
Or maybe due to budget cutbacks, they just get one bullet and have to keep it in their pocket.

http://parkercountyblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/barney-fife-lawman.jpg

JR47
October 10, 2012, 07:55 PM
Many D.C. businesses utilize off-duty DC Metro cops. Others use the local Security Firms, like Wackenhut. Most Security Firms in the area train with .38 Special revolvers. Some GSA Police still carry revolvers, as well.

Drail
October 10, 2012, 08:18 PM
They are probably private security. In most of the cities I have lived in security guards are limited to revolvers only. Don't ask me why, they just are. In most of the Federal offices here in Indiana they use private security and they all carry revolvers. I see a lot of GP 100s. All of this stuff is "outsourced" these days.

chris in va
October 10, 2012, 10:45 PM
Probably similar to the Loomis job I applied for a while back. They issued 38 Special wheelguns, gave the option to carry our own semiauto on our dime.

Very glad I didn't get hired.:barf:

W.E.G.
October 11, 2012, 12:01 AM
Dick Heller is a special police officer in the District of Columbia.

SharpsDressedMan
October 11, 2012, 07:31 PM
Who's Dick Heller, and why would that matter?

Flynt
October 11, 2012, 07:49 PM
Who's Dick Heller, and why would that matter?

Heller vs. District of Columbia, a recent landmark SCOTUS case affirming 2nd Amendment.

Deaf Smith
October 11, 2012, 09:02 PM
Heck gang, the wheelgun police might shoot straiter due to the knowledge they have only six shots!

Never ever underestimate an antagonist, be they use a wheelgun, singleshot, leveraction, etc.. instead of the newest high-speed, low-drag gizmos. They may just be real strait shooters.

Deaf

blarby
October 11, 2012, 09:05 PM
Quote:
Who's Dick Heller, and why would that matter?
Heller vs. District of Columbia, a recent landmark SCOTUS case affirming 2nd Amendment.

Wow, I havent snorted milk out my nose in some time. That was pretty good.

Wangmuf
October 11, 2012, 09:09 PM
Heller vs. District of Columbia, a recent landmark SCOTUS case affirming 2nd Amendment.

Funny, he was a guard at a building I started working at several years ago. Thurgood Marshall building. Entirely Supreme Court admin building. He "left" shortly before I learned of this case.

SharpsDressedMan
October 11, 2012, 09:53 PM
Oh, I remember him now! I'm hell on names! :D

JWJacobVT
October 12, 2012, 12:04 AM
Most if not all private security working for US goverment are limited to 38 revolvers. Smiths, rugers and etc. Some states only allow PSO (Private Security Officers) to carry revolvers. Some areas of the country are under a New federal contract and have gone to Semi's (Seven different makes approved) Sig, Glock, S&W etc as well as only certain models. All will be 40 S&W and depending on area covered limited to 10rd mags. Wackenhut PSO's in Philly had Ruger GP100s a few years ago but I have heard they now have semi's. Of course I have been hearing for the last 8 years that I will soon be carrying a semi on duty. I am not holding my breath.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 12, 2012, 01:28 AM
Probably similar to the Loomis job I applied for a while back. They issued 38 Special wheelguns, gave the option to carry our own semiauto on our dime.

Very glad I didn't get hired.

If it was about the weapons, I don't see what's wrong with it.

Mandolin
October 12, 2012, 10:59 AM
Most of the security at the Smithsonian museums carry revolvers. Museum of American History has 3 bored guards with revolvers at the entrance. Air and Space Museum has 2 dozen slightly less bored guards with revolvers, all in the lobby. National Archives has 3 actually-alert guards at the entrance with Glocks and 3 more in the Rotunda, also with Glocks. Aside from that, didn't see any other revolvers. I was up there in early September.

Drail
October 12, 2012, 11:20 AM
I remember as a child growing up ALL cops carried revolvers. It was about the time Miami Vice started using real IPSC shooters and the law enforcement establishment had their eyes opened on what was possible with a semi auto and some skill. I remember several officers talking about playing the tape from Vice with Jim Zubiena executing a perfect Mozambique on a guard who was holding a revolver on him. They said they all played that tape over and over and discussed it. Within 2 or 3 years police depts. all over the U.S. set about to "convince" their bosses that revolvers were so outdated and inadequate that police officers will be at serious risk unless they start carrying semi autos. And so they did. That one scene got my attention. Zubiena remembered Michael Mann telling him not to worry about going really fast, they could just speed up the film. Everyone on the set was stunned when he shot the scene. It was so fast they didn't need to speed it up. Ironically now we have Jerry Miculek opening a lot of people's eyes about those old antiquated revolvers. The more things change the more they stay the same.

brickeyee
October 12, 2012, 05:29 PM
Washington DC law defined just about any semi-auto as a machine gun until very recently.

The feds can do as they wish, but private security guards in DC are sort of stuck.

Heller was not even allowed to bring his gun home.

Many are 'company owned.'

hang fire
October 12, 2012, 09:37 PM
why so many 'cops' in DC with revolvers

Uh, because revolvers work just fine.

wojownik
October 12, 2012, 11:12 PM
As noted, you'll more typically see private security personnel with revolvers, as well as some of the more niche police agencies.

Just some of the uniformed police agencies in metro DC include:


DC police
Metro Transit Police
Washington National Cathedral Police
DC Protective Services Police
DC Department of Corrections
DC Public Library Police
DC Housing Authority Police
National Zoo Police
Federal Protective Service
Capitol Hill Police
DHS Police
DOD Police
FBI Police
US Park Police
Secret Service
Supreme Court Police
State Department Diplomatic Security Service
US Mint Police
Bureau of Engraving and Printing Police
Government Printing Office Police
Amtrak Police


Plus, just about every significant office building I've been in seems to have uniformed private security, particularly if there is a federal office or other high-profile tenant.

And then there's the various campus police (not all of which are armed):

American University Public Safety
Catholic University Public Safety
Gallaudet University Public Safety
George Washington Unverisity Public Safety
Georgetown University Public Safety
Howard University Campus Police
UDC Police


And then...

Veterans Administration Police (at the VA Hospital)
Washington Hospital Center Police (revolvers, last I saw)


FWIW, on a different topic, if you have a tail light out, it is completely possible to get pulled over by multiple different police agencies and get ticketed for the same "offense" over and over in just a five mile drive. :banghead:

76shuvlinoff
October 12, 2012, 11:38 PM
I'm glad those private guards are only allowed .38s. At least they wouldn't kill anyone.

:rolleyes:

wojownik
October 12, 2012, 11:51 PM
Well, sadly, the Wackenhut security officer killed at the Holocaust Museum three years ago was shot with a Winchester Model 6 .22 rifle. He never got a chance to draw his .38 revolver.

CajunBass
October 13, 2012, 01:53 AM
What struck me is how many were wearing wheel guns.

And the problem with that is? :confused:

Warp
October 13, 2012, 03:26 AM
If they use the same training and tactics as the New York cops did recently, it might be to limit the number of innocent civilians wounded.

Oh, please

jim243
October 13, 2012, 03:45 AM
Might be due to the tourist trade, that it is less threating than a fully armed SWAT team.

Non gun people tend to stay away from heavly armed areas, just not good for business. Don't most armed, US Forest Rangers carry revolvers as well?

Jim

Warp
October 13, 2012, 03:56 AM
Might be due to the tourist trade, that it is less threating than a fully armed SWAT team.

Non gun people tend to stay away from heavly armed areas, just not good for business. Don't most armed, US Forest Rangers carry revolvers as well?

Jim

I'm not sure people visiting DC would feel less safe around LE than not. I mean...this is DC we're talking about.

Renegade Ziggy
October 13, 2012, 06:41 AM
When I worked security we were only allowed 38's also..don't understand why they can't get with the times. But honestly a pistol is a pistol, just happy to have had one.

And the problem with that is?

I don't believe he has a problem with that, just noting how odd it is to see cops (or security) still carrying revolvers. :D

wtr100
October 13, 2012, 08:46 AM
And the problem with that is? :confused:
just unusual - revolver are out of favor with coperators around here

hell even the guys emptying cash machines seem to have glock 17's , beat to hell 17's to be sure - the exception seems to be Chicago PD Sergeants, most of which seem to have a walrus mustache too, that must be grandfathered into being allowed revolvers

wtr100
October 13, 2012, 08:52 AM
Washington DC law defined just about any semi-auto as a machine gun until very recently.

The feds can do as they wish, but private security guards in DC are sort of stuck.

Heller was not even allowed to bring his gun home.

Many are 'company owned.'
i have no problem with any 'private police' or even real police having to check out weapons from base camp or only being allowed to carry when on they're not clock unless they do whatever the rest of us workers and pheasants (or is that peasants) have to do

says some pigs are not more equal that other might be inappropriate so I won't

oh and assuredly cops are not on the clock more than they're on it

MAKster
October 13, 2012, 11:23 AM
In D.C. armed security guards are known as "Special Police Officers" and they carry 38 spl revolvers. These are the folks you see guarding office buildings and museums. SPOs have limited authority to make arrests on employer property and are not allowed to take the gun home. The Metropolitan Police Department officers carry Glock 17s.

BrotherFrankie
October 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
that jerry guy.. 12 shots in 2.9 seconds revolver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

wow

Warp
October 13, 2012, 02:41 PM
Is Jerry an SPO?

You realize that Jerry used a special setup for that and it is not substantially similar to what the officers or security guards carry, right?

Bikewer
October 14, 2012, 12:38 PM
We have the same situation here in the St. Louis area, police agencies universally carry semi-autos, while the various sorts of watchmen, security guards, armored-car drivers and so forth are limited to revolvers.

When I started my career in '68, revolvers were it. I recall reading about a few smaller (and mostly Wester) departments that were flirting with autos back then, mostly the M1911. At the time, the available ammo was pretty much FMJ, and all us police officers knew that autos were "not reliable". (Never mind that the military didn't seem to have any problems...)
I carried a .357 wheelgun for about 15 years. We transitioned to the Glock M23 somewhere in the mid-80s.
The primary motivating factor back then was not demonstrations of auto expertise on TV, but rather that criminals were becoming better armed.

When I started, the typical "street" gun was an ancient "owl's head" revolver in .32 or .38 S&W. Occasionally a crudely-sawn-off shotgun.
However, the rising gang problem and the lucrative drug trade meant that folks were getting upgraded weapons, and police officers were increasingly running into criminals armed with high-capacity auto pistols and such.
So, there was quite a lot of pressure to ditch the revolvers, and a lot of discussion about same.
Thoughts about officers "spraying and praying" and so forth.

My memory may be foggy, but I seem to recall the FBI as the first agency to officially adopt an auto. The first local outfit was the Illinois State Patrol, who went to a S&W 9mm. Our local ST. Louis PD went to the Berretta 9mm, and the county guys went the S&W route as well.

brickeyee
October 14, 2012, 05:26 PM
i have no problem with any 'private police' or even real police having to check out weapons from base camp or only being allowed to carry when on they're not clock unless they do whatever the rest of us workers and pheasants (or is that peasants) have to do

So as long as everyone is screwed over equally it is acceptable?

Good thing the SCOTUS did not think that way.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 05:31 PM
So as long as everyone is screwed over equally it is acceptable?.

I have to say, I do not understand how creating special classes of special people that the regular laws do not apply to is a good thing.

This is why I still say NO ISSUE carry licenses is better than may issue, for example

brickeyee
October 14, 2012, 05:47 PM
"I have to say, I do not understand how creating special classes of special people that the regular laws do not apply to is a good thing."

No one said it was, and that was not the question.

So as long as everyone is screwed over equally it is acceptable?.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 05:58 PM
So as long as everyone is screwed over equally it is acceptable?.

I don't think anybody said it was.

But I will say that everyone being screwed over equally is better than the special class (rich, famous, politically corrupted er I mean connected, certain occupations, whatever) being given special consideration while everybody else gets screwed over

351 WINCHESTER
October 14, 2012, 06:03 PM
With all the police and other armed agencies, why is the crime thru the roof?

Warp
October 14, 2012, 06:10 PM
With all the police and other armed agencies, why is the crime thru the roof?

How many sworn law enforcement officers are there per unit of population in relation to other major metropolitan areas?

monotonous_iterancy
October 14, 2012, 06:13 PM
With all the police and other armed agencies, why is the crime thru the roof?

On a whole, it's not. Crime levels are at their lowest levels since the 60s. You just hear more about crimes outside of your locale.

Drail
October 14, 2012, 08:28 PM
No, Jerry did not use a "special setup" (whatever that means). His gun is basically a box stock S&W. Major power ammunition. None of his guns have lighter springs installed. I have stood next to him and watched him shoot and still cannot hardly believe it.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 08:34 PM
No, Jerry did not use a "special setup" (whatever that means). His gun is basically a box stock S&W. Major power ammunition. None of his guns have lighter springs installed. I have stood next to him and watched him shoot and still cannot hardly believe it.

That's not what I've read, but I don't have sources handy, so that's a dead end.

How close to Jerry's performance do you suppose those armed guards in DC are?

BHP FAN
October 14, 2012, 08:51 PM
add adreneline,and a real ''situation'' and maybe closer than you'd think.

wojownik
October 14, 2012, 11:05 PM
The few security officers (SPOs) that I personally know in DC have both former military and former LEO backgrounds. Others tend to veer towards the Paul Blart, Mall Cop stereotype, admittedly.

I can't attest to how overall "close to Jerry's performance ... suppose those armed guards in DC are". However, among the very few I am acquainted with, I'd say that they have walked the walk (and perhaps I choose my associations carefully).

I remember walking into a Federal building with a colleague (retired Marine), and after walking through the security area, he did a double take and turned around. Turns out that one of the SPOs at the desk served with him during the first Iraq war.

Of course, my defense of SPOs in DC must be limited. Such as the case of the fine fellow that fumbled my laptop as it came out of the Xray machine, and dropped it flat on a marble floor. :banghead:

Warp
October 14, 2012, 11:06 PM
Sounds like you do choose associations carefully.

That's a good thing

ClickClickD'oh
October 15, 2012, 03:50 PM
Oh boy, lots of thread has gone by, let's see if we can play catch up...


Most if not all private security working for US goverment are limited to 38 revolvers. Smiths, rugers and etc. Some states only allow PSO (Private Security Officers) to carry revolvers. Some areas of the country are under a New federal contract and have gone to Semi's (Seven different makes approved) Sig, Glock, S&W etc as well as only certain models. All will be 40 S&W and depending on area covered limited to 10rd mags.

There's a lot of not true in there. We don't have a single government contract that stipulates a revolver must be carried. They all stipulate level III or better holsters though.

There are state level restrictions on what type or caliber firearm may be carried though, so that's true. For example, Florida restricts security officers to .380 (yes, seriously), 9mm autos or .38 or .357 revolvers. Sorry .45 fans, Florida isn't for you. As mentioned by a poster above, the STL area is .38 special only. Louisianan allows 9, .40, .45, .38spl and .357mag, so you have better choice than Florida

Never seen any federal restriction limiting semi-automatics to Sig, Glock & S&W, nor one restricting caliber to .40 S&W.

Now, there may be some individual government agency with those standards, but they aren't general government contract standards.


How close to Jerry's performance do you suppose those armed guards in DC are?

That's really a very silly question. It's like asking how close you think you average NYPD officer is to being able to make the Glock shooting team.

Not very close at all.

My company is licensed to operate (and does) SPOs in DC. (Talk about a nightmare trying to jump through all the legal hoops to make that happen :( ) I'll tell you straight out, there isn't anything special about DC SPOs as compared to armed security guards in the rest of the nation. There are good ones and bad ones. Ones that are over qualified for the job and ones that would forget to breath if it wasn't automatic. DC just likes to call them special and make the company jump through hoops to create special shoulder patches that won't be used any where else in the country.

Oh and DC doesn't technically restrict SPOs to revolvers only. There are SPOs that carry .45s, as long as they use 7 round magazines in them. DC shut that down recently though, so they only people you will see with them were grandfathered in.

Now all that stuff having being said, many companies restrict what their officers may carry more than the state they work in does. Some companies, like mine, allow you to purchase your own firearm as long as it is within certain guidelines. Some companies own the firearms the guard is going to use and issue them out, thus removing any choice. You have to remember that some of the very biggest security companies aren't American owned, so you see a lot of foreign influence in their firearms policies. Combine that with the company owning the firearms and attempting to issue a firearm that is acceptable everywhere... You get company issued .38 revolvers. That's why you end up seeing most revolvers these days. There are still some guards who carry a revolver by choice, but the majority of guards are wearing autos these days.

Depending on where in the nation I am going to be working I swap out a .45, a 9 or a .357 revolver regularly.

Warp
October 15, 2012, 04:21 PM
That's really a very silly question. It's like asking how close you think you average NYPD officer is to being able to make the Glock shooting team.

Not very close at all.

Which is precisely why I don't reference the skills of the Glock shooting team as evidence for why SPOs, or whoever, should carry Glocks.

xsquidgator
October 16, 2012, 08:10 AM
If you want an idea of the relative effectiveness of revolvers vs semi-autos, go shoot an IDPA or IPSC match and look at the scores. An Expert wheelgunner can usually up with the scores posted by Novice semi-auto people (and usually then they're running moonclipped revolvers). In the hands of a typical competition shooter at the club level, having a semi-auto is worth about a class or two of increased score.

wojownik
October 16, 2012, 01:29 PM
<chuckle> Two years ago, I decided to play with my good old S&W Model 65 3-inch during an IDPA match (just to change things up from my usual Sig P229 or P228). My final score was around 279 in SSR, while by comparison I'd been averaging around the 240s with my Sigs in SSP.

So, I don't think you even have to be an "expert" wheelgunner to acquit yourself fairly well in IDPA in relation to stock service pistols.

Another fellow shooting SSR that day just blew the other SSP scores away day ... around 200, while the best SSP score was around 225. His quiet smile said it all.

xsquidgator
October 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
<chuckle> Two years ago, I decided to play with my good old S&W Model 65 3-inch during an IDPA match (just to change things up from my usual Sig P229 or P228). My final score was around 279 in SSR, while by comparison I'd been averaging around the 240s with my Sigs in SSP.

So, I don't think you even have to be an "expert" wheelgunner to acquit yourself fairly well in IDPA in relation to stock service pistols.

Another fellow shooting SSR that day just blew the other SSP scores away day ... around 200, while the best SSP score was around 225. His quiet smile said it all.

If you can do that, then keep doing it. At our club with about 80 or so shooters per match, I don't think I've ever seen the SSR/ESR scores really come close to ESP/SSP. That may be skewed a bit because we only have a couple of revolver shooters and we have several Master and a number of Expert semi-auto guys shooting. Most of our club matches the best SSR score might be 225-ish (8 stages) but the Sharpshooter ESP/SSP scores will be down around 130-150.
I'm not knocking wheelguns, mind you, I shoot ICORE too. In my experience and I think in most other's though, you can get a lot more hits per minute with a semi-auto than with a wheelgun.

brickeyee
October 17, 2012, 05:25 PM
Oh and DC doesn't technically restrict SPOs to revolvers only.

DC's old law defined ANY gun that could accept a large magazine as a machine gun.

What it had IN IT did not matter.

What it could accept did.

HorseSoldier
October 19, 2012, 09:36 AM
Most of the security at the Smithsonian museums carry revolvers. Museum of American History has 3 bored guards with revolvers at the entrance. Air and Space Museum has 2 dozen slightly less bored guards with revolvers, all in the lobby. National Archives has 3 actually-alert guards at the entrance with Glocks and 3 more in the Rotunda, also with Glocks. Aside from that, didn't see any other revolvers. I was up there in early September.

I visited the Holocaust Museum in around the same time frame. They looked like they had about a reinforced platoon inside, outside, static and roving. The Special Police Officers themselves looked like all the other armed security guards I'd seen in DC, but they seemed to have a serious security plan in place there. (Of course, as I was leaving I noted that they'd had one of the SPO's killed on the job by some nut case a few years ago, so that level of security isn't just there for the fun of it.)

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