Ammo lesson learned


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351 WINCHESTER
October 11, 2012, 08:54 PM
I carry a kel tec p32. It's my always gun. I have shot and carried a unique bullet for some years. It is a flat nose .32acp made by FN in 1982. I have shot dozens and dozens of this ammo with zero problems.

Yesterday I shot my gun with my carry ammo. I had 4 of the FN ammo loaded. Every single one failed. The primer went off, but it felt like a half load. Every round jammed as they did not have enough power to eject the empty shell and all bullets exited the gun. I had another magazine that had 7 of the same ammo and same lot number. All fired like they were brand new.

This is military grade ammo sealed at both ends and for the life of me I do not understand what happened.

I am scratching my head.

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Jeff H
October 11, 2012, 09:18 PM
Just so we all understand this correctly, are you saying that you carried the same ammo for 30 years and then it failed when you shot it or are you saying that you carried 30 year old ammo and it failed when you shot it?


Either way, for my carry ammo, I would pick something a little more recently made.

MedWheeler
October 11, 2012, 09:27 PM
That's definitely old ammo to be banking your life on, but my guess is that, since the remainder of it fired normally, what happened would have happened even if you had tried to fire them out in 1983. Were probably bad rounds then, and were now.

bigfatdave
October 11, 2012, 10:44 PM
In addition to relying on OLD ammo, why have you locked youself in to only one carry load?

You should know 2-3 loads that run in your carry guns, and have some stock of each if possible, that way if you can't replenish the stock of autoblaster2000 when it runs out (for whatever reason) you still have some blast-o-matic42 left and can get more when convenient.

Zoogster
October 11, 2012, 10:58 PM
Most likely one of a couple things. You either had oil in the firearm or magazine penetrate into the rounds and ruin them, or you had sweat manage to get into the rounds.
If exposed to rain or rain wet clothing over all that time that is possible too.


Oil in the gun has the biggest chance of penetrating since it never dries and can work its way in over long periods of time. But the way some people sweat that is possible.


You can always seal your rounds yourself if you want. If you do be sure that when sealing the primer end you don't ruin it by letting any flow past the primer surface (holding it upside down while brushing it on can make it easier), and that you don't apply it to where the firing pin actually strikes as it could make it more resistant to denting.

MedWheeler
October 12, 2012, 10:40 AM
Dave writes:

In addition to relying on OLD ammo, why have you locked yourself in to only one carry load?

I don't see where the OP said he was "locked into" one carry load... For all we know, he simply loaded up with another type right away.

351 WINCHESTER
October 12, 2012, 12:09 PM
I don't see how oil or moisture could be a factor as this ammo was sealed at both ends. This FN ammo was made for a military contract. I have literaty shot dozens and dozens of this round from the same lot number without any problems. The other ammo that I had in the magazine shot just fine.

This ammo was carried in the gun for about 5 years. I used to shoot my carry ammo every so often and have never had a problem. I decided the other day to shoot what I was carrying. I like the FN due to it's flat nose bullet and being sealed at both ends, but this has really got me stumped.

RC - Are you scratching your head too?

RainDodger
October 12, 2012, 04:33 PM
What other solution could it be other than oil or moisture of some kind? Nothing else I can think of. If a cartridge is exposed to elements of any kind long enough, it's going to degrade somehow. Oil, sweat, water, whatever.

I'd bet that's the cause.

351 WINCHESTER
October 12, 2012, 04:45 PM
Oil no. Humidity yes, water no. None of the other ctgs. that were loaded in the magazine were affected.

I recall somethine about this ammo. I got it from an old friend. He tried adjusting the bullet depth in an efford to get it to feed in one of his pistols. That would have broken the seal between the bullet and the case. That seems like a longshot though. What are the chances that I got some of that ammo. I would have noticed the shorter overall length right off the bat.

dodge
October 13, 2012, 07:08 AM
You might not have if he only changed the seating depth a couple of thousands. That would be enough to break the seal and allow stuff to migrate into the powder.

Hacker15E
October 13, 2012, 07:48 AM
There's nothing inherently wrong with 'old' ammunition. For all intents and purposes, the shelf life of metal-cased ammunition is longer than most of our lifetimes.

303tom
October 13, 2012, 09:16 AM
Sounds like a Conundrum to me.................

coĚnunĚdrum/kəˈnəndrəm/
Noun:

1. A confusing and difficult problem or question.
2. A question asked for amusement, typically one with a pun in its answer; a riddle.

230RN
October 13, 2012, 05:34 PM
Accumulated dirt under the firing pin or hammer which finally broke loose after that fourth shot?

Derek Zeanah
October 13, 2012, 06:36 PM
I'd suggest that the improvements we've seen in JHP designs over the last 30 years are enough of an issue that you should be shooting a more recent design.

I'd also suggest that "dozens and dozens" of rounds fired is not enough to establish reliability. I might be more picky here than you, however.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 07:20 PM
I'd suggest that the improvements we've seen in JHP designs over the last 30 years are enough of an issue that you should be shooting a more recent design.

I'd also suggest that "dozens and dozens" of rounds fired is not enough to establish reliability. I might be more picky here than you, however.

I completely agree that dozens of rounds fired is not enough to established reliability.

I don't think the JHP improvements are relevant to the anemic .32 auto, though. I wouldn't even consider a JHP in such a puny caliber due to lack of penetration.

351 WINCHESTER
October 13, 2012, 08:52 PM
Prior to shooting my p32 I removed the firing pin and cleaned the channel as I had a few missfires with s & b ammo which are known for their hard primers. Once cleaned it worked like a champ. Missfires were not the problem. The 4 offending rounds felt like half loads, not enough to cycle the action, but enough to lodge the bullets downrange.

My pistol is now loaded with Fiocchi recent manufacture. I have had this pistol for 10 years or so and other than the inital failure to extract and some missfires the gun has been flawless. I have shot just about every kind of .32acp ammo thru this pistol including handloads and I have easily put 2k rounds thru it.

JohnBT
October 14, 2012, 03:55 PM
I vote for an ammo factory error, because 1982 isn't old and the rest of the ammo worked.

I carried a P-32 for 10 years and only carried Fiocchi or S&B ball ammo. JHP ammo is too short and rimlocks way too often in a P-32. There is a modification for the P-32 mag that allows the reliable use of JHP, but I prefer penetration in a small round.

John

lemaymiami
October 14, 2012, 06:00 PM
I like Mr. Dave's advice on having more than one brand of carry ammo on hand...

As far as bad rounds go there's one other possibility that we ran into years ago in south Florida. Corrosion problems are pretty bad in a tropical environment (both on weapons and ammo), many local law types (me included) got into the habit of using WD40 or something equivalent on both weapon and ammo regularly then wiping each surface dry as a preventive measure. It was found and confirmed that fine penetrants like WD40 could kill ammo if used regularly... Most Departments issued bulletins warning against the practice. The various sprays kept ammo looking great but had bad effects on powder and primers....

Don't know if it applies in this instance but it's worth considering...

351 WINCHESTER
October 14, 2012, 08:08 PM
Well I've received a lot of good input, but there has to be something else that caused this. I quit using wd40 decades ago. What are the odds of getting 4 bad rounds, carrying those rounds for appx. 5 years out of all the ammo from that lot and have never had a problem other than 1 missfire that I fixed as I cleaned out the firing pin channel on my pistol.

The next time I go shooting I'm going to shoot 3 mags of this ammo and see what happens. I've got nothing to loose as I will never be able to trust this ammo again which is a shame due to the flat nose bullet which I really liked.

Shawn Dodson
October 15, 2012, 12:06 PM
Winchester offers FMJ flat point .32 ACP. I load it in my Seecamp .32 for defense.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Q4255.jpg

JohnBT
October 15, 2012, 03:07 PM
"What are the odds of getting 4 bad rounds"

Worse than hitting the MegaMillions I imagine, but not impossible. People do hit the lottery and you did get 4 bad rounds.

The only bad rounds I've ever had were a half a box of blanks from the late '40s. They were all duds, but they were free; used to belong to a great-uncle iirc.

John

351 WINCHESTER
October 15, 2012, 03:39 PM
Shawn, Thank's for sharing. I was not aware that anyone made fp .32acp ammo. I will look for some.

I wish I had the offending box of ammo as I would shoot every round just to see what happens. Prior to shooting I would examine it to see if the bullet sealant was broken. If the seal was broken I would weight every powder charge.

JTHunter
October 16, 2012, 01:24 AM
FWIW - I have some Winchester Wildcats in .22LR (lead RN) that has been sitting in my house since 1990 and some in an unheated pole barn in airtight plastic ammo cans. Haven't had any problems so far. *shrugs*

Elmer
October 16, 2012, 01:43 AM
I'd suggest that the improvements we've seen in JHP designs over the last 30 years are enough of an issue that you should be shooting a more recent design.

In .32 he's better off with FMJ. That Winchester load Shawn mentioned looks like it would be a good one.

bigfatdave
October 16, 2012, 04:22 AM
Winchester offers FMJ flat point .32 ACP.and that's the stuff with a short OAL that causes rimlock in my .32acp guns

And it comes with plinking-grade quality control ... unless the WWB .32 you buy is different than the stuff I've bought in the past

351 WINCHESTER
October 16, 2012, 12:49 PM
Maybe Olin sells the bullets and I can roll my own.

MK11
October 16, 2012, 02:30 PM
Why the affinity for the flat point? Is there really any performance gain over FMJ (especially in a .32) or is it theoretical?

351 WINCHESTER
October 16, 2012, 05:26 PM
I do think the flat point offers better performance, however so slight. I'll take all the help I can get in a mousegun.

Elmer
October 22, 2012, 12:32 PM
Why the affinity for the flat point? Is there really any performance gain over FMJ (especially in a .32) or is it theoretical?

No, not theoretical. Flat point projectiles cut and crush tissue better than round nose, which tend to slip past.

All the things a bullet cuts on the way through, can be as important as where it ends up.

Shawn Dodson
October 22, 2012, 01:30 PM
Shawn, Thank's for sharing. I was not aware that anyone made fp .32acp ammo. I will look for some.

Apparently Speer Lawman and Federal American Eagle (both owned by ATK) recently switched to flat point FMJ bullets in .32 ACP but I haven't been able to confirm it.

k_dawg
October 22, 2012, 07:20 PM
Something to keep in mind with .32ACP/ 7,65 Browning is that most US loads are rather anemic compared to European loads.

The standard Sellier & Bellot 73 grains is 150fps faster than that Winchester. 179ftlbs versus 129.

Only US ammo I would trust would be the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Flat Nose _if_ rim lock is not a problem in your firearm.

Shawn Dodson
October 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
I wouldn't waste my money on the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast load. The increased velocity doesn't increase wounding effect.

What the increased velocity does is increase both felt recoil and muzzle flip.

ozo
October 24, 2012, 12:53 PM
351WIN....
have you weighed any of the rounds you have left ?
Maybe throw 50 or 100 on a scale before you go shoot them....
if you have any noticeable difference in weight, separate
before you shoot.

Weird, 4 in a row....in the same mag.
I just shot some .22WMR from 1980, it was fine.
We also shoot 10yr old .22lr's regularly.
The rounds I load for carry, that get handled [in/out]
I put nail polish on the primer. Yours were already sealed.

ozo
October 24, 2012, 12:57 PM
Brush on liberally
Wipe off on paper towel

ozo
October 24, 2012, 01:10 PM
351WIN
I just remembered a fix for a feed problem using
JHP shelf ammo in some little mouse gun we had,
may have been a Taurus.....[??]
We tried a lot of ammo, but the .32auto MagTech
had a different shape, more like ball ammo.
I will look to find a box of it......

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