Why no CC at gun shows ?


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2bfree
October 12, 2012, 03:31 PM
Why do gun shows have a rule of no carry. I would think if any place were to allow it it would be here. Just wondering the thinking on this.

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Sav .250
October 12, 2012, 03:33 PM
Think safety. You can "carry" but they install a plastic tie to render your weapon inoperative.
I`ve never been to a GS where you could carry (in side the show) a weapon loaded with live rounds. If others have I`m sure they`ll explain.

CountryUgly
October 12, 2012, 03:34 PM
Huh? Must be a decision that's made locally because any gun show I've been to had no such No Carry rule, sign etc. Interesting question though.

OilyPablo
October 12, 2012, 03:35 PM
Think insurance and loaded guns......

rcmodel
October 12, 2012, 03:37 PM
I have personally been in two guns shows when somebody had a ND.

It really gets your attention when there is a 230 grain .45 bullet ricocheting around inside a concrete exhibition hall full of people!!

I imagine gun show promoters have a hard time getting liability insurance as it is, without allowing loaded guns in the building.

And it may in fact be a provision of the insurance policy to prohibit all loaded guns in the show the promoter has to enforce to even get liability insurance.

rc

oneounceload
October 12, 2012, 03:38 PM
Think theft as well as safety - you wear an empty holster in, steal a gun off the table and walk out the door

Ryanxia
October 12, 2012, 03:44 PM
Definitely liability. Too many idiots take out their loaded carry gun to show it off and now you've got dozens of people handling loaded guns. I believe in being able to carry 100% of the time but I'm kinda glad Bubba J leaves his gun in his car.

That being said, rules are meant to be broken and if it's concealed and stays that way it's out of sight out of mind. :D

Mainsail
October 12, 2012, 05:08 PM
It's because owning a handgun doesn't impart wisdom. There are some serious chuckleheads out there- and they're armed. I was walking through a wal-mart openly carrying when one of them stopped me, complimented my firearm choice, then proceeded to pull his loaded handgun out of his fanny-pack to show me. Sheesh.

This is why the organization that does the gun shows in Washington will not allow carry in the venue; some of their members and public who attend aren't bright enough to find their way out of a paper bag, much less leave their loaded gun in the holster.

mljdeckard
October 12, 2012, 05:18 PM
Gun shows and convention centers are not on my state's list of off-limits to carry. They are not posted as off-limits to carry. They ask that all guns be cleared and zip-tied. But I am not under any obligation to tell the staff I am carrying concealed, so I don't.

oneounceload
October 12, 2012, 05:24 PM
But I am not under any obligation to tell the staff I am carrying concealed, so I don't.

But if you are discovered and you do not have proof it is yours, you may have some headaches trying to convince them you didn't steal it

NavyLCDR
October 12, 2012, 05:29 PM
But if you are discovered and you do not have proof it is yours, you may have some headaches trying to convince them you didn't steal it

The FFLs at the gun show would have to have their inventories logged in their bound books. They claim a gun is stolen from them, they better have the bound book records to prove it. If a private party claims the gun is stolen, it's one person's words against another's - both equal credibility.

Think theft as well as safety - you wear an empty holster in, steal a gun off the table and walk out the door

The rule is against carrying loaded guns at a gun show, not against having an empty holster. Exactly how does a no loaded guns rule prevent theft? It's more likely to create empty holsters, in fact.

Walkalong
October 12, 2012, 05:30 PM
We used to be able to carry into gun shows here, but it changed quite some years back now. I am sure it is an insurance things and our sue happy society.

Of course if some moron shot me at a gun show, I believe that would be just cause for a law suit.

mljdeckard
October 12, 2012, 05:36 PM
Nope. My carry gun is not an item that would be easily mistaken for a gun on a table at a gun show. They would also have to explain how I stole my extra aftermarket magazine, worn Surefire 6P flashlight, the belt pouch that holds both, and precisely the correct number of rounds to fill the magazines plus one in the chamber.

Jim Watson
October 12, 2012, 05:38 PM
I am in Walkalong's theatre of operations.

I have been present for one gun show patron being shot and a hole shot in the ceiling. (Not the same show.)
With shotguns on display that mysteriously got loaded, not pistols worn by patrons.

There was the guy who unloaded and tied off his pistol going in and shot himself somewhere in the process of reloading it and getting it back in his way kewl shoulder holster right after leaving.

Dnaltrop
October 12, 2012, 05:55 PM
I carry every time I go, and in the case of my M&P, I try to make it safe in the car, beforehand, before the guys running security ask for it to apply their Zip-ties.

The Blackhawk is much easier to make safe, push the button, remove the cylinder, cylinder in pocket with the rounds in a separate one.

Tinpig
October 12, 2012, 06:16 PM
I don't see how a gun show should be any different from a gun store in this regard. Yet all of the gun stores in my area allow lawful carry and the gun shows don't.

When gun shows cite "safety" and "liability" as reasons to disarm their patrons they're using the exact same arguments as anti-gun individuals and organizations.

It's always struck me as extreme hypocisy for an organization whose sole purpose is to make money off of selling guns not to trust lawful gun owners to exercise their 2A rights.

It's made me stop going to gun shows.

Tinpig

beatledog7
October 12, 2012, 07:44 PM
mljdeckard,

When you enter a private event that has a no loaded guns policy, and you get caught CCing, they have every right to expel you.

Are you the guy parked in the fire lane as well?

BSA1
October 12, 2012, 07:50 PM
We had a idiot fire a flare gun off inside the building one year. It made a loud bang, then a pretty red flare arched to the ceiling trailing a long plume of smoke, bounced around the ceiling before landing on the tent of a group of WWII re-enactors display.

Sure was a pretty sight. Show sure got quiet in a hurry.

Cesiumsponge
October 12, 2012, 08:00 PM
There was a ND at the WAC gun show here earlier in the summer...and they're gun shows with an unloaded gun policy. One of the WAC senior/life members thought the rules didn't apply to him and had an ND. I believe the unloaded gun policy was a liability agreement because WAC rents the Puyallup Fairgrounds here.

Ignition Override
October 12, 2012, 08:18 PM
Imagine how many times people at gun shows sweep each other (aim at other people) with rifles and handguns. In order to aim at the ceiling or floor, it is nearly impossible not to aim at somebody for a fraction of a second.

Even the other guns might be unloaded (I hope). There were two gun show incidents last year where ADs took place, though I don't have the statistics.

A guy in Illinois had a loaded Mini 14 on his table: three people injured, one seriously, by the .223 bullet.
Another gent had an AD with a handgun. From what I remember reading, he tried to clear it and then a second round discharged.

In order to check a chamber and magazine and look through the bore, the plastic tie must be cut (some have no ties), but this does Not mean that both the chamber and magazine are already empty.

OilyPablo
October 12, 2012, 08:25 PM
There was a ND at the WAC gun show here earlier in the summer...and they're gun shows with an unloaded gun policy. One of the WAC senior/life members thought the rules didn't apply to him and had an ND. I believe the unloaded gun policy was a liability agreement because WAC rents the Puyallup Fairgrounds here.

Yeah it's the one show I missed. Guys said the same thing as above, it got really quiet. Dude was booted, lost his membership and even cried. Same liability when the WAC show is here at the Evergreen Fairgrounds (Monroe, around 8 miles from my house). No ND's at this one that I know of. Two in Puyallup - bigger show I guess. Some chucklewagon was shooting air soft into the rafters in the smelly older building, even that, while quiet, seeing something fly with the corner of your eye is a bit disconcerting.

LeontheProfessional
October 12, 2012, 08:25 PM
With all of the guns out in the open and people constantly showing there tied up guns in the their holsters to others at the gun shows it could be an accident waiting to happen. In my experience there are a lot of people walking around with their personnel weapons for sale. If these guns were loaded and they were trying to sell them to every other guy in the show it could get dangerous very quickly with the constant loading and unloading of the weapons.

I rarely carry my own weapons in the show unless im trying to sell it or buy something for it. If that is the case I generally have a knife on me and a there is plenty of whatever caliber of rounds on the tables. If push came to shove and a group of mass murderers came in and started shooting it would only take me and everyone else in there a few seconds with a pocket knife to have a loaded firearm.

Ehtereon11B
October 12, 2012, 09:46 PM
"Do you have any loaded firearms today"
"No Sir I do not."

Great thing about my state is no obligation to disarm. If I plan to showoff what I have, well that is what pictures are for. I am not paranoid going into gun shows armed, it is just a hassle to disarm when you put it on everyday not thinking about it.

mljdeckard
October 12, 2012, 09:59 PM
Re #17,

Then it's no different than any other business in the state. Last gun show I had to park two venues away and pay $7.

guyfromohio
October 12, 2012, 10:31 PM
I wrote a nasty letter to our local gun show operators asking why they were profiting from the 2nd amendment, but unwilling to support it. The response was polite and explained that no insurance carrier will touch them unless they post the no carry signs. I accept that, but haven't visited one since.

cfullgraf
October 12, 2012, 10:54 PM
The gun shows in Knoxville, TN, have a no carry and no loaded magazine policy. All guns entering the show must be checked by the rented LEOs and rendered in-operable.

I do not know the basis for the policy but enough accidental discharges happen anyway that I am glad of the policy.

newfalguy101
October 12, 2012, 10:59 PM
In these parts, the shows are normally in either city or county owned properties, so its their rules, which almost universally involve NO CCW.

c1ogden
October 12, 2012, 11:10 PM
Its due to liability concerns. I've seen this prohibition posted at just about every gun show I've ever been to. Most of them have also had a notice explaining that ON DUTY law enforcement officers (who would be covered by their employer's liability insurance) were exempt from the ban as was anyone else who provided adequate proof of liability insurance.

hso
October 12, 2012, 11:15 PM
As pointed out, safety is the basis for it.

A lot of handling of firearms goes on at a show what with checking guns, mags, holsters, etc. and prohibiting having a loaded gun in anyone's possession helps prevent negligent discharges. Still with that prohibition people get shot at shows every year.

Warp
October 12, 2012, 11:35 PM
Why do gun shows have a rule of no carry.

Because people are stupid and not to be trusted.

That is how those in charge see it.

Can't say I blame them.

beatledog7
October 12, 2012, 11:49 PM
Law-abiding gun owners are supposed to be respectful and -- um, law abiding, right?

When you decide to carry a concealed firearm and attend a "no loaded guns" event, chances are you already know that policy will be in effect and that CCW holders are not meant to be exempt.

When you arrive and present your ticket for entry, you get asked if you have any loaded guns; you are CCing, but you say, "No" anyway, which is a big fat lie. In Virginia, these gun checkers are either sworn police officers or are overseen by sworn police officers, so you're effectively lying to a LEO who is acting in the course of his duties. If you're caught, you could face charges for that. At the very least, you could be made very uncomfortable for a good while, and you could lose that gun for a while as well.

You then enter, and every minute you are knowingly and blatantly violating the rights and/or wishes of that venue/host/organization, yet you expect them to respect your rights and/or wishes.

If something goes down, what are you going to do? If you draw, you will be revealing your lie. If you don't want to reveal your lie by drawing, then why are you carrying? NDs sometimes happen at gun shows, but armed assaults are pretty rare. How would you propose to stop an ND or shield yourself from one with a concealed handgun?

Doesn't seem very rational to me.

MedWheeler
October 13, 2012, 12:18 AM
I don't sweat it. I've never seen a "no guns" sign at a gun-related venue without immediately knowing it's a "lawyer sign". I carry all the time, so I do arrive at the show armed. I clear my weapon before leaving my vehicle, and present it for examination. The people who zip-tie it usually offer to cut the tie off for me when I leave if I want.
Most of the time, I have a second gun stashed in my vehicle in case I don't want to re-load right away there in the lot.

mljdeckard
October 13, 2012, 01:25 AM
Well, in Utah, they aren't.

If "Something goes down" that is significant enough to justify drawing my gun, what do I care if people thought I was lying about anything? I won't be the only one, and everyone will be GLAD SOMEONE WAS CARRYING. Who ever said a concealed gun was a defense to a negligent discharge from someone else?

If I have to park two venues away, (because some brilliant marketing manager realized that it was a great idea to hold a crafts show in the other half of the convention center, to give the wives a reason to come with their husbands and cross-rationalize spending money,) this means I have to traverse streets and parking structures TWICE to get to and from my vehicle. And then there's lunch, in another public venue. To not carry at the show means I will have to do all of these things unarmed.

If it is posted, but with no metal detectors, nor any other kind of check to verify, with no force of law to back it up, nor any actual intention on the part of the poster to actually have anyone disarm, it is no different than a movie theater or restaurant that posts but doesn't enforce, which I also flagrantly ignore, in some cases having checked with the management and actually verified that they only post because of corporate policy, they could flat care less if anyone is carrying. If this causes you angst, because my state is more permissive than yours, that is entirely YOUR problem.

Win73
October 13, 2012, 01:35 AM
Why do gun shows have a rule of no carry. I would think if any place were to allow it it would be here. Just wondering the thinking on this.

I can think of one very good reason for no loaded gun rules at gun shows. My son was shot at a gun show. One person brought in a loaded Walther PP .32 auto. He did not check it at the door like he was supposed to. He gave it to another person he was trying to sell it to. He pulled the clip (I know, magazine) out but left a round in the chamber. The person he gave it to is the one who actually fired the gun. He claimed it was cocked when handed to him and he took the safety off to decock it and it fired then. If you know anything about Walther PP's, you know it couldn't have happened that way because a PP has a hammer drop safety. If the safety had been on, the hammer would have already been dropped.

The shooter was considerate enough to have his hand between my son and the gun. He blew off one of his own fingers. It must have been a frangible bullet because it fragmented in his hand and the fragments hit my son. Four or five fragments hit my son in the back and left side and one cut a slit through the pull over shirt he was wearing. If that guy hadn't had his hand in front of the gun, my son would have taken the full force of that bullet. He was only three or four feet from the shooter.

We did find out how to get through the emergency room quickly. We were filling out the paperwork to admit my son. The gal behind the desk got to the question, "Why are you here?" I answered "Gunshot wound." I don't know where she came from because I had not seen her, but when I said gunshot wound, a nurse swooped down and grabbed my son and said "You come with me!" She then pointed at me and said "You fill out the paperwork!" Also it wasn't long until the police showed up.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 01:38 AM
If something goes down, what are you going to do? If you draw, you will be revealing your lie.

If "something goes down" that justifies my use of deadly force I really, truly, could not care less about this. I don't think anybody else would care, either, at that point.

mljdeckard
October 13, 2012, 01:40 AM
^^Among other obvious failures in this case, he wasn't carrying it concealed with the intent to only draw it if necessary for self defense. He DREW it with the intent to SELL it. That changes everything in and of itself.

I hope you boy wasn't hurt too badly.

cheeze
October 13, 2012, 01:50 AM
Wow Win73, glad the guy's hand was in the way and your son is alright! My position is that concealed is concealed. If you can't handle that in every circumstance except during an immediate clear threat to life, then clear and check the weapon or leave it at home. Stupidity unfortunately has no effect on fertility these days, so they breed and we have to make rules to limit the effects of their stupidity.

guyfromohio
October 13, 2012, 08:16 AM
Of course, a smart thief may see the walk to the parking area a prime target..... "ooh guns, money, and nothing is loaded!!!!"

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
If "something goes down" that justifies my use of deadly force I really, truly, could not care less about this. I don't think anybody else would care, either, at that point.

But keep in mind there are armed LEOs present, and it is their job to keep things in order and to respond IAW their training and their oath if "something goes down."

Many of the reasons most frequently cited for CCW: a cop is too heavy, when seconds count the police are just minutes away...are negated at the show because the police are present.

If we want our position regarding RKBA to be respected, but we don't grant equal respect to those who ask that we do not carry, we are just plain wrong. We always have another option regarding places where CCW is disallowed, whether we agree with the policy/rule/law or not: We can choose not to go there.

fatcat4620
October 13, 2012, 10:09 AM
We have no loaded guns and no loose ammo. With a few NDs a year even with those rules in place I would never go to the shows if we did not have them.

Iramo94
October 13, 2012, 11:47 AM
My local shows have a no ammo policy, and they have a metal detector on the way in. The shows happen on land owned by the county government (expo center adjacent to the local college campus).

OilyPablo
October 13, 2012, 11:53 AM
No ammo? Do they sell ammo there?

scaatylobo
October 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
I totally agree and do the same and have for DECADES.

When I was LEO and did ID myself,I was told to empty my weapon at door.

First of all that was against my dept rules & reg's = it was not among the list of reasons to draw my gun .

Second there was no discharge / sand pail.

So I adopted my own rules & regs as did you.

The reason I see for not allowing loaded guns [ are not all guns always loaded ] in the show is, many look to get a holster or mag for the gun they are wearing and then unholster a loaded weapon.

THE simplest way to stop any problem is to POST THE LAW,stating that to draw a loaded gun for ANY reason less than S/D is a felony [ reckless endangerment & menacing ].

Then prosecute a few and the problem will be solved.

leadcounsel
October 13, 2012, 01:28 PM
With all the gun handling that occurs, it's probably a good idea to make sure all guns are unloaded. Every once in awhile, there's an ND at a gun show. In fact, here in Washington there was one a few months back from a dealer who forgot his .380 was loaded - thankfully the shot when through the ceiling.

Look I'm all for the right to carry, but in a room full of people handling, pointing guns, pulling triggers I'd prefer folks don't have loaded guns around. I've literally found myself having guns aimed at met left and right at gun shows...

Warp
October 13, 2012, 01:39 PM
But keep in mind there are armed LEOs present, and it is their job to keep things in order and to respond IAW their training and their oath if "something goes down."

Many of the reasons most frequently cited for CCW: a cop is too heavy, when seconds count the police are just minutes away...are negated at the show because the police are present.

Even at a gun show the police are not everywhere at once and there is no guarantee that I will have no need to do anything, ever, because there is this one officer over on the other side of the exhibition hall.



If we want our position regarding RKBA to be respected, but we don't grant equal respect to those who ask that we do not carry, we are just plain wrong. We always have another option regarding places where CCW is disallowed, whether we agree with the policy/rule/law or not: We can choose not to go there.

What they didn't know sure didn't hurt them.

scaatylobo
October 13, 2012, 03:05 PM
I go to MANY shows every year and at NONE are there LEO's.

There were at Rochester,but that show seems to be ended.

And there are dang few LEO's and more 'security guards' that are NOT trained LEO's.

I even set up at a few shows and NONE of them allow us to be armed,even though there are NO LEO's to guard the premise.

The general rule of the "dealers" [ many private sellers like me ] is we keep our shirts out and jackets on !.

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 03:28 PM
What they didn't know sure didn't hurt them.

Is this your actual position? What other places are you carrying where it is prohibited by policy, law, or the property owner's wishes? What other acts do you think it's ok to commit as long as the persons who, if they knew you were doing it would consider themselves violated, don't know?

Would anyone who thinks this way care to address the question of why your rights and wishes outweigh those of other people and place you above the law?

And how are such willful violations "High Road"?

This sort of stuff is exactly what anti-gun folks want to hear us say so they can make the case that we are a bunch of lawless, trigger happy neanderthals.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 04:00 PM
Is this your actual position? What other places are you carrying where it is prohibited by policy, law, or the property owner's wishes? What other acts do you think it's ok to commit as long as the persons who, if they knew you were doing it would consider themselves violated, don't know?

Would anyone who thinks this way care to address the question of why your rights and wishes outweigh those of other people and place you above the law?

And how are such willful violations "High Road"?

This sort of stuff is exactly what anti-gun folks want to hear us say so they can make the case that we are a bunch of lawless, trigger happy neanderthals.

What law?

lulz at being trigger happy because I report to have not unloaded my carry gun at a gun show.

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 04:21 PM
Warp,

No doubt you are a safe carrier, and I'm not calling you trigger happy -- far from it. I'm saying that if we all took the attitude that we and we alone will choose when and where we are going to carry, rules be damned, the anti-gun crowd would eat it up.

And what about the herd of Bubbas who are there carrying loaded guns because they feel the same as you? Are you ok that they are less trained and less competent than you, yet they are in a roomful of gun people, showing, buying, selling, trading stories, muzzling the room, etc.? If Bubba next to you draws a revolver from appendix carry to show to another Bubba, and you can clearly see it's loaded, what's your gut reaction? Sure, he took it a step further than you're taking it, but still, you broke the same rule he broke. The rules don't say you can't show someone a gun -- that's what everyone is there to do.

When you apply for a CCW license in Georgia, do you sign a document saying that you will abide by applicable laws and regulations? If you knowingly carry where you're asked not to, aren't you in violation of the spirit if not the letter of that agreement?

The question remains, why is ok to violate rules provided nobody knows? Is that what a CCW is supposed to be for, a license to violate rules?

Owen Sparks
October 13, 2012, 04:33 PM
Here is why:

http://djournal.com/view/full_story/20484294/article-Two-suffer-non-life-threatening-injuries-in-accident-at-gun-show?instance=home_news_right

This accidental shooting happened just this morning at a gun show in Mississippi.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 04:33 PM
If Bubba next to you draws a revolver from appendix carry to show to another Bubba, and you can clearly see it's loaded, what's your gut reaction? Sure, he took it a step further than you're taking it, but still, you broke the same rule he broke.

As long as none of the 4 rules of safe gun handling are broken, I'm fine with it.

If he sweeps me with that loaded gun my reaction is the same as anywhere else, regardless of the sign that may or may not be posted at the entrance.




When you apply for a CCW license in Georgia, do you sign a document saying that you will abide by applicable laws and regulations? If you knowingly carry where you're asked not to, aren't you in violation of the spirit if not the letter of that agreement?

The question remains, why is ok to violate rules provided nobody knows? Is that what a CCW is supposed to be for, a license to violate rules?

We don't have CCW licenses in Georgia. We now have a Georgia Weapon Carry License. The word concealed does not appear anywhere (nor did it used to). And no, I do not recall signing any government document saying I will follow the requests of private parties, businesses, etc.

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 04:40 PM
If he sweeps me with that loaded gun my reaction is the same as anywhere else, regardless of the sign that may or may not be posted at the entrance.

Meaning, you're going to draw as well? That's rich. Now there two of you standing there with loaded guns, yours pointed at Bubba. Who's going to jail today?

Warp
October 13, 2012, 04:43 PM
Meaning, you're going to draw as well? That's rich. Now there two of you standing there with loaded guns, yours pointed at Bubba. Who's going to jail today?

Yeah, that's totally what I said I would do. :rolleyes:

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 04:56 PM
Yeah, that's totally what I said I would do.

Right. Ok, next table over, a seller has cut the ziptie on a .338 WinMag so Bubba can examine the bore, and Bubba closes the bolt then sweeps you and about a dozen other people. Since there are a number of tables where Bubba could have bought ammo, you don't know that he didn't slip a round in the camber, so it could be loaded. Are you gonna draw on him as well?

Warp
October 13, 2012, 05:02 PM
Right. Ok, next table over, a seller has cut the ziptie on a .338 WinMag so Bubba can examine the bore, and Bubba closes the bolt then sweeps you and about a dozen other people. Since there are a number of tables where Bubba could have bought ammo, you don't know that he didn't slip a round in the camber, so it could be loaded. Are you gonna draw on him as well?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I have no idea why you decided to start claiming that I would 'draw on' anybody.

Please stop.

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatledog7
Meaning, you're going to draw as well? That's rich. Now there two of you standing there with loaded guns, yours pointed at Bubba. Who's going to jail today?
Reply by Warp: Yeah, that's totally what I said I would do.:rolleyes:

So you were being facetious? Then I humbly and sincerely apologize. I'm not fluent in emoticons. :o I'm learning :)

But I still think you're wrong.

That said, what would you do?

Warp
October 13, 2012, 05:19 PM
So you were being facetious? Then I humbly and sincerely apologize. I'm not fluent in emoticons. :o I'm learning :)

But I still think you're wrong.

I was not being facetious.

I never said nor implied that I would draw.

You just made up a position, attributed it to me, and then attacked it.

What do you think I am wrong about, exactly? :confused:


BTW: After you made up the position, attributed it to me, and attacked, I responded sarcastically with "Yeah, that's totally what I said I would do :rolleyes: " FYI: When a person rolls their eyes, it is a good indication that they are being sarcastic. I didn't think there would be confusion on that issue since I rolled my eyes and since, well, I never said that I would do that

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 05:40 PM
I never said nor implied that I would draw.

You just made up a position, attributed it to me, and then attacked it.


In posts, 36, 46, and 49 you indicated that you thought CCW at gun shows is ok, even where not allowed. In posts 52 and 54, you said if Bubba sweeps you, you'd react as you would anywhere else. I asked if that meant you would draw. And you responded...

Yeah, that's totally what I said I would do..

...having already noted that your reaction would not be influenced by the sign at the entrance, presumably the one about loaded guns being prohibited, since that was the point of the discussion from jump street. You added an emoticon that I failed to interpret properly. Asking you if xxx is your position is not the same as attributing xxx position to you.

So, I quite naturally thought you were saying that you would draw. Again, I apologize, but I must insist that I did not make up a position and attribute it to you. I simply misinterpreted your response to my question.

What I think you're wrong about is your stated position that carrying concealed at a show where it is prohibited by policy, and even pulling out a loaded gun to show to another patron, is ok.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 05:47 PM
The below post is not simply asking me what I meant:
Meaning, you're going to draw as well? That's rich. Now there two of you standing there with loaded guns, yours pointed at Bubba. Who's going to jail today?

12-34hom
October 13, 2012, 05:54 PM
Darwin's theory is in full effect at all gun shows, along with Murphy's law.

12-34hom.

razorback2003
October 13, 2012, 05:59 PM
I carry a handgun often to gun shows, but it is concealed and not a gun I plan on selling or trading. If I planned on trading or selling it, it would be unloaded and zip tied.

jon_in_wv
October 13, 2012, 06:00 PM
I agree with most there should be no CC at gun shows. There is too much temptation to pull out the loaded weapon to show it to a dealer, or buyer, etc.........There are not many safe directions to clear a weapon in a crowd and there are so many guns being handled it is best to know they are all unloaded.

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 06:02 PM
IRT Post 60:

Note also that this was phrased as a question, and as such it left you an opening to say that I was mistaken and that this was not your position. If you had done so this would have never taken the turn that it took.

You chose to answer positively but with sarcasm rather than simply clarify, and I missed the sarcasm. I apologize (a third time) for the misunderstanding, but I did not make up a position and call it yours.

The statement that led me to ask was this:

If he sweeps me with that loaded gun my reaction is the same as anywhere else, regardless of the sign that may or may not be posted at the entrance.

We're clear that you would not draw, and I'm happy you wouldn't. But we still don't know what your reaction would be.

Warp
October 13, 2012, 06:34 PM
We're clear that you would not draw, and I'm happy you wouldn't. But we still don't know what your reaction would be.

If you would like to discuss reactions to be swept by a loaded gun, start a thread on the topic. ;)

beatledog7
October 13, 2012, 06:41 PM
OK, I will. I hope you'll reply there.

k_dawg
October 13, 2012, 07:04 PM
Depends on the laws of the state. In Florida, there is no 'exemption' to the legal statutes for signs posted. e.g. they have zero legal force.

OTOH: the ones I have been to, they have a police officer asking you if you have any firearms. Lying to an officer brings its own risks.

GEM
October 13, 2012, 07:31 PM
The local TX shows used to allow carry unti - guess what!

Talked to the show manager. He had to put up 30.06 signs and hated it because it sent the wrong message.

I can see the point. At a range, I had a guy walk up to us with a Glock 23 in his grip and slightly out of battery. Said it didn't work and wanted advice. We learned to teleport that day.

mljdeckard
October 13, 2012, 07:37 PM
I'm not breaking any law or regulation of any kind. Other people do not get to choose when I can and cannot carry, because my state has pre-emption. It is precisely for situations like this that the law was enacted.

Again, it really sounds like you are only angry because my state's laws are more permissive than yours.

checkmyswag
October 13, 2012, 10:35 PM
I have personally been in two guns shows when somebody had a ND.

Yikes!

scaatylobo
October 13, 2012, 10:37 PM
My post is that I carry CONCEALED at all venues that I can do so with confidence that it is CONCEALED.

That way I am NOT at a "gun free zone".

That means I might be alive if threatened by an armed perp that did not read or heed the rules of a "gun free zone"[ see Colo. theater MURDER ].

I also posted that IF for ANY reason you draw a LOADED gun at a gun show = you SHOULD be arrested and charged with reckless endangerment and menacing.

In NYS that is an easy to apply law as it is already on the books of the NYS Penal law.

THE highest authority you will answer to is the Lord,and I dont plan on meeting him earlier than I need to.

And as I noted there are NO officers of the law at the MANY shows I attend and set up at.

Walkalong
October 13, 2012, 11:27 PM
We have police officers at the table where we pay to get in. They check and tie strap all guns on the way in. Naturally you could hide one, but you will be breaking the rules and if caught it will not be pretty.

We, gun owners, are under constant scrutiny, and the antis would love nothing better than to shut gun shows down. An accidental shooting or an arrest at a show would definitely make the news.

bushmaster1313
October 14, 2012, 12:12 AM
Why no CC at gun shows ?

Guns get passed around and "dry" fired at gun shows.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 14, 2012, 12:46 AM
The reasons I see is because of insurance and idiots thinking it's okay to try holsters with a loaded gun and sweeping people in the process. They don't intend harm, they just lack common sense. By seeing the sign about no loaded guns, they may think it's illegal to carry loaded and not bring their loaded gun inside.

wyohome
October 14, 2012, 12:51 AM
I have never been asked if I was carrying, nor have I ever noticed a sign prohibiting it. (Wyoming)

Double Naught Spy
October 14, 2012, 12:54 AM
Because people are stupid and not to be trusted.

That is how those in charge see it.

Can't say I blame them.

Funny thing, more often than not at the ones in the DFW area, it is the dealers that screwup.

GLOOB
October 14, 2012, 01:15 AM
Cuz gun shows are run by pro 2A people with common sense.

If a person with too many screws loose happened to drop his last marble at a gun show, the organizers could say, "Look, CCW is explicitly forbidden. Too bad criminals and nut jobs don't follow the law."

Meanwhile, if you CCW, just keep it C'd, and all is good. The fact there are so many guns and ammo around, and the fact that there is a good chance that some of the vendors if not patrons are CC'ing despite the signs, is probably what prevents gun shows from being a regular target of armed robbery and nutjob shooting sprees to begin with.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 01:34 AM
Cuz gun shows are run by pro 2A people with common sense.

If a person with too many screws loose happened to drop his last marble at a gun show, the organizers could say, "Look, CCW is explicitly forbidden. Too bad criminals and nut jobs don't follow the law."

Meanwhile, if you CCW, just keep it C'd, and all is good. The fact there are so many guns and ammo around, and the fact that there is a good chance that some of the vendors if not patrons are CC'ing despite the signs, is probably what prevents gun shows from being a regular target of armed robbery and nutjob shooting sprees to begin with.

What law?

Ignition Override
October 14, 2012, 01:39 AM
A few sellers have suspected that some very unbalanced people have intentionally put some rounds into guns at shows.

At our recent show, a seller told me that years ago somebody put 9mm rds. into several 9mm handgun chambers during one show.

bigfatdave
October 14, 2012, 02:01 AM
who's paying for the police at the show, anyway?

BSA1
October 14, 2012, 08:44 AM
I'm not breaking any law or regulation of any kind. Other people do not get to choose when I can and cannot carry, because my state has pre-emption. It is precisely for situations like this that the law was enacted.

Again, it really sounds like you are only angry because my state's laws are more permissive than yours.

Do your state laws also protect you from civil lawsuit and judgment which can just as bad or even worse than criminal prosecution and conviction?

Second if you are in so much fear of your life why are you even going into the building anyway?

Boy oh boy. A good lawyer sure would have fun making you explain reason #2 why you are on the witness stand defending yourself from reason #1.

Hapworth
October 14, 2012, 08:48 AM
Law-abiding gun owners are supposed to be respectful and -- um, law abiding, right?

When you decide to carry a concealed firearm and attend a "no loaded guns" event, chances are you already know that policy will be in effect and that CCW holders are not meant to be exempt.

When you arrive and present your ticket for entry, you get asked if you have any loaded guns; you are CCing, but you say, "No" anyway, which is a big fat lie. In Virginia, these gun checkers are either sworn police officers or are overseen by sworn police officers, so you're effectively lying to a LEO who is acting in the course of his duties. If you're caught, you could face charges for that. At the very least, you could be made very uncomfortable for a good while, and you could lose that gun for a while as well.

You then enter, and every minute you are knowingly and blatantly violating the rights and/or wishes of that venue/host/organization, yet you expect them to respect your rights and/or wishes.

If something goes down, what are you going to do? If you draw, you will be revealing your lie. If you don't want to reveal your lie by drawing, then why are you carrying? NDs sometimes happen at gun shows, but armed assaults are pretty rare. How would you propose to stop an ND or shield yourself from one with a concealed handgun?

Doesn't seem very rational to me.
It is both eminently appealing and quite convenient when reading a thread of more or less informed and impassioned debate on a controversial subject that you discover someone has posted the exact thoughts and position you were summoning the not always dependable will to make yourself.

Bullseye, beatledog7.

Hapworth
October 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
If you would like to discuss reactions to be swept by a loaded gun, start a thread on the topic. ;)This seems a coy reply where a direct one is warranted.

I read your original comment about getting swept by a Bubba tinkering with a loaded gun as implying you would respond in kind. You wrote:

If he sweeps me with that loaded gun my reaction is the same as anywhere else, regardless of the sign that may or may not be posted at the entrance.If you're not indicating bringing your concealed piece into play, why does your admittedly unclear reply refer to your "reaction" being "regardless" of whether or not there's a stated no loaded guns policy?

How would a no guns policy have any connection to your reaction if your reaction didn't involve flouting it? Why reference it otherwise?

The question's worth clarifying in this thread. If you were implying something other than drawing and didn't word it well, nothing wrong with acknowledging and addressing that. If on the other hand your comment was exactly as it seems but you'd rather not make that explicit on record, nothing wrong with making that clear, either.

Double Naught Spy
October 14, 2012, 09:19 AM
A few sellers have suspected that some very unbalanced people have intentionally put some rounds into guns at shows.

At our recent show, a seller told me that years ago somebody put 9mm rds. into several 9mm handgun chambers during one show.

Usually such stories are about the antis trying to do this, apparently to get gun shows closed down. Nobody has ever come up with a credible first hand account.

Win73
October 14, 2012, 01:38 PM
I hope you boy wasn't hurt too badly.

Wow Win73, glad the guy's hand was in the way and your son is alright!

My son was very fortunate. If that guy hadn't had his hand in the way, my son could easily have been killed. The bullet would probably have gone into his lungs. As it was only one of the fragments that hit him penetrated. The others left red welts on his back and left side. And one cut a slit as it passed through his pull over sweat shirt.

At the emergency room they X-rayed him and saw that one fragment had penetrated. The doctor asked him if he wanted it removed. He said it would probably never bother him. My son asked how long it would take to remove it. The doctor said it might take 15 seconds or it might take 45 minutes. My son said he would prefer to have it removed. The doctor made a slit with a scapel over one of the red welts. He was then able to remove it with a pair of tweasers. It took about 45 seconds.

The thing that worried us was the fact that the bullet passed through the guys hand and had his blood on it. In settleing with the guys insurance company we insisted that he have a blood test run. Thankfully it came back negative.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 01:49 PM
How would a no guns policy have any connection to your reaction if your reaction didn't involve flouting it? Why reference it otherwise?

I referenced it because it is kinda sorta the topic of this discussion.



The question's worth clarifying in this thread.

In your opinion, perhaps. Seems a bit off topic, but sure, why not:

IMO far too many people haven't figured out that the goal is to NOT GET SHOT, and that getting off the X and getting behind cover are the best ways to do this. I don't know why people jump to the conclusion that you are going to shoot the guy who is poorly handling a gun and happened to sweep you with it. I also don't know why people think pointing a gun at a guy who might have his finger on the trigger of a loaded gun makes him less likely negligently pull it.

You get off the X. You get behind cover. You tell the person in no uncertain terms that you do not want the gun pointed at you. They will almost surely stop pointing it at you or not point it at you again. They will probably be apologetic or sheepish about it. If not, then perhaps they didn't learn their lesson or realize their mistake and you should then be reporting them and their actions to the authorities. In in the unlikely but not impossible event where they get openly hostile and point the gun at you intentionally and menacingly, all bets are off.

cheeze
October 14, 2012, 02:19 PM
I am amazed at how freely some of us just volunteer away our constitutional rights. Some of these posts translate to me as:

-Since a sign is posted to not carry loaded weapons, it is now the law.
-You are not to trust yourself with a well concealed weapon.
-Law enforcement officers are everywhere at all times and invincible.
-The second amendment is a privilege, not a right.
-Criminals don't exist around gun shows.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 02:45 PM
I am amazed at how freely some of us just volunteer away our constitutional rights. Some of these posts translate to me as:

-Since a sign is posted to not carry loaded weapons, it is now the law.
-You are not to trust yourself with a well concealed weapon.
-Law enforcement officers are everywhere at all times and invincible.
-The second amendment is a privilege, not a right.
-Criminals don't exist around gun shows.

To be fair, cheeze, the counter point would be: Private property rights are important. The Second Amendment does not apply to a private property owner/manager instituting a rule against loaded guns. You can always choose to not visit the gun show if you believe your 'rights are violated' by not having a loaded gun.

cheeze
October 14, 2012, 02:59 PM
I am not obligated by law to comply, and I am not obligated by law to disclose. Some folks may be, and then they have to factor that into their decision making.

If you go to a place where there is a sign stating that your underwear must be on backwards, but no-one is going to check and no-one will ever see, are you going to switch it before going?

Private property rights ARE important, I agree, hence the right to remove anyone who isn't complying with your rules. If they ever found out I have my underwear on the right way, they should have the right to have me leave. If they want me to leave for no reason, they should have the right to make me leave. If I don't tell them and they don't know, then who cares?

If they ask, then I have to tell the truth or a lie. I prefer not to lie even if it's inconsequential. In that case, I probably will render the firearm and have it checked in.

beatledog7
October 14, 2012, 03:28 PM
Cheeze, I don't see any of that (Post 88) in this thread.

-Since a sign is posted to not carry loaded weapons, it is now the law.

In some states, that is exactly how the law works. In others, such signs don't have the force of law, but any such sign anywhere expresses the wishes and rights of the property owner, and is to be respected by those who wish to be considered respectful. Entering in a non-compliant status is both dishonest and disrespectful. If you can't comply, go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you to attend. Warp got this exactly right in Post 89.

-You are not to trust yourself with a well concealed weapon.

It's not a matter of you trusting yourself. It's about the venue being able to trust that you as an attendee are being honest regarding your status WRT loaded firearms. They have that right--it's their event, after all.

-Law enforcement officers are everywhere at all times and invincible.

Nobody is saying anything like that. LEOs are on site (at least in my state) to provide a deterrent to criminal activity, but also to oversee the application of the no loaded guns policy. The point that was made is that they are present as opposed to being blocks or miles way, seconds from action as opposed to minutes.

-The second amendment is a privilege, not a right.

Attending a gun show is a privilege, one for which you must temporarily suspend your 2A rights if a no loaded guns policy is in effect. If you can't do that, you should decline the privilege of attending. Imagine you're in a movie theater, and just as the show begins two guys start a loud conversation. Do they still have freedom of speech? Yes, but as patrons of the theater they must voluntarily suspend it while the show is on. Otherwise they are violating the decorum of the venue, and they will be asked to leave. Same thing at the gun show.

-Criminals don't exist around gun shows.

While NDs are sadly common at gun shows, armed assaults are quite rare. If violent crimes happen at all, they happen in the parking lot, where the no loaded guns policy (at least in my state) doesn't apply.

beatledog7
October 14, 2012, 03:38 PM
IRT Post 90:

Sign at venue: "Underwear must be on backwards for entry."

Me to buddy: "I can't comply with that policy, and I can't enter in good conscience with my skivvies on rightways. Let's go somewhere else."

Buddy: "Agreed. We're outta here."

That's how it works.

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 14, 2012, 03:43 PM
Honestly, I just ignore the sign. I also don't put my meathooks on my firearm in public. If I'm carrying at a gun show, it stays in the holster, under my shirt. No touching. I won't even pull it out at a gun store. I've seen guys at the counter at gun shops actually pull the gun right out of the holster and start showing it to another customer or the clerk for a repair or something. My jaw drops every time.

Birch Knoll
October 14, 2012, 03:48 PM
I also don't put my meathooks on my firearm in public. If I'm carrying at a gun show, it stays in the holster, under my shirt. No touching. I won't even pull it out at a gun store.

And if everyone did this, CC'ing at gun shows would not be an issue.

I've seen guys at the counter at gun shops actually pull the gun right out of the holster and start showing it to another customer or the clerk for a repair or something. My jaw drops every time.

Unfortunately, it only takes a few of these guys to make a no-guns policy necessary in the crowded environment of a gun show. All it takes is one meathead who wants to test a holster for fit with his loaded carry gun. How many gun shows are meathead-free?

Ragnar Danneskjold
October 14, 2012, 04:28 PM
That's why I choose to ignore the signs and carry anyways. Can I get thrown out if I get caught? Yep. Actions have consequences. But I also trust myself to mitigate those possible consequences by choosing to act in a responsible way and not get caught. I am only responsible for my own actions, but I am wholly responsible for my own actions.

Owen Sparks
October 14, 2012, 05:25 PM
Two people, a 4 year old boy and a man went to the ER yesterday morning because of an accidental discharge at a gun show in Mississippi. They were standing in the lobby waiting to enter when a bullet came through the wall. I do not know if the shot was fired inside the show or if it came from outside but they were both hit in the legs with bullet fragments.

Warp
October 14, 2012, 05:28 PM
Two people, a 4 year old boy and a man went to the ER yesterday morning because of an accidental discharge at a gun show in Mississippi. They were standing in the lobby waiting to enter when a bullet came through the wall. I do not know if the shot was fired inside the show or if it came from outside but they were both hit in the legs with bullet fragments.

Would be interesting if the negligent discharge came when somebody was unloading their gun in order to comply with the rules before entering.

Art Eatman
October 14, 2012, 05:35 PM
Four pages? Let the poor old horse go on and die plumb dead. :D

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