Caracal reliability, service


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jimherb
October 13, 2012, 07:03 PM
I handled a Caracal at the gunshow today and was really impressed with how it fit my hand. I've read a number of review and comments that speak favorably of it. My concern is with parts and service. Are parts available?
Is there reasonably competant customer service somewhere?

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plouffedaddy
October 14, 2012, 08:50 AM
Parts are available from caracal-usa. As to their competency; I have never had a need to use them so I'm not sure....

the count
October 14, 2012, 05:33 PM
There are so many proven polymer framed pistols why go for a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates? It's like considering a Chinese made pickup truck when you have Fords, Chevys and Dodges to chose from.

tekarra
October 14, 2012, 06:03 PM
Why what are your grounds for saying: "a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates?" Such a statement requires solid justification.

TennJed
October 14, 2012, 06:09 PM
There are so many proven polymer framed pistols why go for a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates? It's like considering a Chinese made pickup truck when you have Fords, Chevys and Dodges to chose from.

I assume you only own 100% American made firearms since everything is equivalent to Chinese made?

Sam1911
October 14, 2012, 07:09 PM
There are so many proven polymer framed pistols why go for a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates? It's like considering a Chinese made pickup truck when you have Fords, Chevys and Dodges to chose from.

And if you take a little time to ready up on the provenance of the Caracal pistol (who designed it and why) you might just sheepishly swallow those words and give it another look.

Maybe, maybe not.

the count
October 14, 2012, 07:37 PM
Why what are your grounds for saying: "a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates?" Such a statement requires solid justification.
May I quote wikipedia... "The Caracal pistol is a series of semi-automatic pistols manufactured by Caracal International L.L.C.[1] a subsidiary of Tawazun Holding from the United Arab Emirates. Newly arrived on a competitive market, the Caracal pistol series are the first pistols made in the United Arab Emirates."

My point is....you can get proven quality polymer pistols from the US and foreign countries like Glock (Austria), CZ (Czech Republic), etc so why take a chance with something like the Caracal? If I insulted the gun industry of the United Arab Emirates so be it... Signed, the Infidel. :-)

Sam1911
October 14, 2012, 07:44 PM
And if you take a little time to ready up on the provenance of the Caracal pistol (who designed it and why)...

Could be worth your time. Or not. Whatever floats your boat.

Lots of things can be "tried and true," "proven," and of established quality -- and every one will be superceded by the next generation of whatever it is.

There are things about the Caracal to like, a LOT, and the folks who developed it certainly have enough knowledge of the genre to have some goals in mind for what they thought they could do better.

Not everyone has to be a first-adopter, though. If sticking with the known is more comfortable, do that.

Some folks might find it worth a few hundred bucks to find out if it does something just a little bit better/faster/more ergonomically than the Glock, M&P, xDM, Steyr, etc.

TennJed
October 14, 2012, 08:18 PM
May I quote wikipedia... "The Caracal pistol is a series of semi-automatic pistols manufactured by Caracal International L.L.C.[1] a subsidiary of Tawazun Holding from the United Arab Emirates. Newly arrived on a competitive market, the Caracal pistol series are the first pistols made in the United Arab Emirates."

My point is....you can get proven quality polymer pistols from the US and foreign countries like Glock (Austria), CZ (Czech Republic), etc so why take a chance with something like the Caracal? If I insulted the gun industry of the United Arab Emirates so be it... Signed, the Infidel. :-)

I don't think anyone was disputing it being made in UAE, I think he was saying you need some solid justification to your claim that it is the equivalent of Chinese junk. All reports seem very positive on this gun. Got anything to back up your claim that it is basically "Chinese junk"? I am going to bet you can't back that up

the count
October 14, 2012, 08:38 PM
I didn't say anywhere that it was Chinese junk! It was a comparison. Gee. This thread is beginning to seem like we are a bunch of idiot politicians like the ones in Washington. I said that why go with a unknown middle east made gun when you can get a great, throughly researched and tested one. You guys go buy your Caracals or whatever. I will stay with my Glock and Sig. I rest my case. Good night.

JohnKSa
October 14, 2012, 08:46 PM
Seems like a pretty solid gun, there are a few issues I see with it.

1. It uses lots of roll pins--if you detail strip it, you'll want to have some replacements on hand and at least one of the pins isn't a standard size. Caracal USA may have them--haven't checked--but if you get roll-pins from them you're officially voiding your warranty since you can't detail strip it and keep your warranty.

2. There are no aftermarket parts or accessories for this gun (yet?).

3. Mags are not that easy to find and not really economical.

2 and 3 may go away with time, but 1 is here to stay.I said that why go with a unknown middle east made gun when you can get a great, throughly researched and tested one.It's been pretty well researched and tested, it's just not well known in the U.S.

Shuler13
October 14, 2012, 08:47 PM
I own one and nothing about the gun makes me think "unreliable" or "junk". As to parts and service I have not needed either.

If it were almost as good as others on the market, given it lacks a history, I would have passed. But given that the ergonomics and trigger were better than most I've held in the same category and the production resulted in a product with what appears to be of high quality, I felt confident in owning one.

Shuler13
October 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
See, The problem is Caracal ignored the second rule of "how to make a fortune in gun sales". You have to make a small amount of duds so people can test your customer service. For every dud you must resolve this issue quickly and toss in an extra mag. The boards will light up singing your praises. Shame on them.

Sam1911
October 14, 2012, 09:24 PM
You guys go buy your Caracals or whatever. I will stay with my Glock and Sig. I rest my case. Good night.

That's perfectly fine, like I said:

Not everyone has to be a first-adopter, though. If sticking with the known is more comfortable, do that.

Some folks might find it worth a few hundred bucks to find out if it does something just a little bit better/faster/more ergonomically than the Glock, M&P, xDM, Steyr, etc.


Don't know how any of that makes anyone here an "idiot politician."

I'm not so terribly concerned about voiding the warranty. Lots of gun makers will say something of the sort if you start putting aftermarket bits into it. However, I am very anxious to see the aftermarket get moving on this. From what I've heard it has a long trigger reset (a "feature" not a "bug" as Microsoft would say) and that would need to be remediable if it's going to be a "go-fast" Production/SSP gun -- which I what I'd be interested in buying one as.

I'd like to see this give the M&P a serious run for the money as the product-improved Glock (so to speak). That's quite a challenge, but if the aftermarket (hey APEX, you listening?) steps up to the plate with some equivalent lockworks bits, we'd likely have a serious contender.

JSNAPS
October 14, 2012, 10:26 PM
If this is an occasional range toy, I say go with it, but if this is going to be your rock and roll handgun you may want to look at something more established in the community (glock, m&p, sig, hk, walther etc.)

mgmorden
October 14, 2012, 10:29 PM
and that would need to be remediable if it's going to be a "go-fast" Production/SSP gun -- which I what I'd be interested in buying one as.

They certainly are making a push there. JJ Racaza is signed with them to shoot it in Production division. Now to some degree such things are a bit unfair as someone of his skill can make any gun shine (whereas us mere mortals tends to see greater advantages in the little tweaks here and there), but the fact that they've sponsored a shooter to field it specifically in competition is encouraging.

Girodin
October 14, 2012, 10:57 PM
There are so many proven polymer framed pistols why go for a pretty well unknown one from the United Arab freakin' Emirates? It's like considering a Chinese made pickup truck when you have Fords, Chevys and Dodges to chose from.

I love how this pistol exposes all xenophobes. The gun has passed NATO trial and German police trials. The gun is seeing success in competition as well. Trying to cast it as an unproven design, unknown etc, is silly. The pistol's designer also has a history of producing solid guns.

Why would one chose it over other striker fired guns? First it may be preferable to them when compared without considering price. That said the gun is priced very competitively at $400.

I rest my case.

Your case was sucked. I suppose that's why it involved resulting to name calling.

3. Mags are not that easy to find and not really economical.

I've heard this misinformation before. I used google and checked the usual places and found mags at about the same prices as the other typical striker fired guns.

JohnKSa
October 14, 2012, 11:54 PM
I'm not so terribly concerned about voiding the warranty.Nor am I. However I suspect we may be in the minority. ;)I've heard this misinformation before. I used google and checked the usual places and found mags at about the same prices as the other typical striker fired guns.Interesting--the prices seem to have actually come down some since the last time I checked. Availability has also improved somewhat which is encouraging--I see Midway is now stocking them.

However, they're still significantly more expensive than Glock mags and not available from nearly as many sellers. A google search is only turning up a handful of places that stock Caracal F mags and they're running $29 to $35. I can find Glock 17 mags all over the place--and for as little as $20.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/gl179mm17man.html

I should have qualified my comment a bit more carefully. I was specifically thinking about Glock magazines when I made the comment/comparison. You are correct that the Caracal mags are currently selling in the same price range as what is seen for various striker-fired pistols, excluding Glocks.

Looks like I'll have to start stocking up--I only have 4 mags right now.From what I've heard it has a long trigger reset...My F requires that the trigger be essentially fully released before it resets. However, trigger travel from fully forward to the fired position is only about 5mm (about 0.2") when measured at the center of the trigger bow.

A Glock 17 trigger (again measured at the center of the trigger bow) travels about 7mm (0.28") to the fired position, but only needs to be released about 2.5mm (about 0.1") to reset.

Basically the Caracal F cuts about a tenth of an inch from trigger travel compared to the G17 but requires that you allow the trigger to return a tenth of an inch farther than the G17 to reset. It's not so much that the trigger reset is really that long--it's that it's long compared to overall trigger travel in the gun.

By the way, my unmodifed Caracal F has a trigger pull of 5lbs 4oz compared to a pull of about 6lbs 4oz for an unmodified G17 I measured.

It's true that the reset isn't as short as the Glock reset, but my assessment is that what it gives up in reset length, it gets back in reduced overall travel and lighter pull weight.

Frank Ettin
October 14, 2012, 11:58 PM
Seems like a pretty solid gun, there are a few issues I see with it....Some point worth keeping in mind, but perhaps not deal breakers.

On the other hand, I spent a fair amount of time looking them over at the SHOT Show and was favorably impressed. They seemed solid, nicely put together and with very good ergonomics.

It's been pretty well researched and tested, it's just not well known in the U.S....The gun has passed NATO trial and German police trials. The gun is seeing success in competition as well....So it's hardly untried and untested.

bds
October 15, 2012, 01:13 AM
Just a thought ...

Had the Caracal been manufactured in a different country like Germany, we might be having a very different thread discussion ... ;)

Who knows, a few years from now, we might be having Glock vs M&P vs Caracal thread discussions ...

For me, I think competition is healthy as it forces manufacturers to continuously improve their products. Just look at what auto racing did to our cars we drive ... Anyone care to guess why our family sedans have variable valve timing and 6/8 speed transmissions? Certainly not because of corporate bean counters ... :D

I say, bring it on and let the competitions begin!

Imagine what Gen5 Glocks and future M&Ps may be like in a few years ... I can't wait.

tarosean
October 15, 2012, 01:26 AM
you can get proven quality polymer pistols from the US and foreign countries like Glock (Austria), CZ (Czech Republic), etc so why take a chance with something like the Caracal?

Perhaps your not old enough to know when not a single poly pistol was proven? People took chances and they were proven in time.

so be it... Signed, the Infidel. :-)


Wrong country. UAE is a great ally and a huge consumer of our goods.

hardluk1
October 15, 2012, 08:45 AM
Concedering the designer came from Glock , then to Styer to design there M and S series pistols before going to UAE at the MERKEL factory that the UAE bought. There he designed and merkel built the caracal pistols solid to the euro market. It is a Nato aproved handgun back in 2006. . Now if you don't think merkel can make a top end firearm you really don't understand firearms. The pistols sold in america come from a uea factory and the plus side to that is an all new state of the art factory. We have 5 military bases in the UAE right now. Hope my caracal C comes in today too. The C models trigger pull tends to be under 5lbs. Price of the pistol C model to dealers 375 and centerarms systems has them for 399. All this whinning from a one sounds alot like when glock first came out. For the chinese whinner, look around your home and see what is not made in china from clothing to eletroncis to furniture. If you don't like something don't buy it . Just don't whine about something you know nothing about.

hentown
October 15, 2012, 08:46 AM
I'm not motivated to run out and buy a Caracal anytime soon, but I am going to remain open-minded about them. When Glocks were first introduced, they were besmirched by all the so-called experts, who were "stuck" in the year 1911. ;)

I don't like the fact that several roll pins are used, particularly odd-sized roll pins. I don't even like the fact that the XDs use a roll pin. However, my ARs use several roll pins, and I love 'em, just the same.

I have no problem with buying foreign-made merchandise. Some of the best electronics, cameras, etc., are made in China. I'd rather support some Chinese peasant's family than some American union thug's family. I'm sure I buy some union-made merchandise; however, given a clear choice, I'll avoid it.

Sam1911
October 15, 2012, 11:09 AM
[Mod Talk: Let's drop the argument over the UAE and such. If you don't know anything about the CARACAL PISTOL itself, don't drag the conversation off into the weeds with off topic dross.]

Girodin
October 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
Concedering the designer came from Glock , then to Styer to design there M and S series pistols before going to UAE at the MERKEL factory that the UAE bought.

I may be wrong but, I seem to remember reading that Wilhelm Bubits, the designer of the Caracal, was a former police officer who went to work for glock doing consulting and training instructors and armorers. I've read he designed the Steyr M series in the late 90s and pitched the idea to glock. Glock passed (having achieved perfection and all :) ). Bubits then took the design down the road to steyr would produced the pistols. As an aside I own both M and MA1 pistols as well as multiple glocks. I find the steyr compares very favorably and have gone from carrying a glock to a steyr. One can see some of what I really like about the steyr has been incorporated into the caracal.

After the M series guns Bubits designed the Walther PPS. I've not seen many complaints from users of the PPS. It is a well thought out design that compares very favorably to other pistols in its class. In 2003 he began work on what has become the caracal pistol.

The Caracal is looking to break into a market that already has good options. However, if you look at the gun on its merits it is worth a look. Caracal also seems to be doing a MUCH better job of marketing this gun in the US than Steyr ever did with the M series. The M series was/is a great gun nobody knew they should even be looking at. Interestingly I've had a number of shooters who just didn't like glocks, their grips, etc, really like the stery. It wouldn't surprise me if the Caracal is the best gun one can buy NIB for $400. It also wouldn't suprise me if some glock haters (and lovers alike for that matter) found they liked this gun much better.

plouffedaddy
October 15, 2012, 02:22 PM
Had the Caracal been manufactured in a different country like Germany, we might be having a very different thread discussion ...

Just putting this out there---Caracals are produced in Germany and the UAE; but in the US we currently only import the UAE producd guns. Not sure if that makes a difference to anyone but maybe it does....

hardluk1
October 15, 2012, 06:19 PM
Well i have my caracal C model in hand and I have to say the level of finsh from the milling to the metal finish is at a higher level than many handguns out there. I replaced a glock 17 with this. Shorter 2.63" reach to the trigger and thinner where you reach at the same 1.100" as the slide . Only fired a few shoots out back but what reviews have said about recoil seem true enought. Very little snap with +P 124gr loads. Tomorrow a trip to the range to run a few hundred rounds thru it. Mine was $431 with tax.

Sam1911
October 15, 2012, 08:28 PM
Remedial reading lesson:[Mod Talk: Let's drop the argument over the UAE and such. If you don't know anything about the CARACAL PISTOL itself, don't drag the conversation off into the weeds with off topic dross.]

C0untZer0
October 16, 2012, 01:12 AM
They can be had for a smidge under $400.00

That's pretty cheap !

Water-Man
October 16, 2012, 02:11 AM
Caracal is supposed to be making a sub-compact available shortly.

Urban_Redneck
October 16, 2012, 11:18 AM
I just purchased a Caracal C ($419 shipped). Hopefully, it will arrive before the weekend :D I have every confidence that it will be as accurate and reliable as my F that has put 2700+ malfunction-free rounds downrange. Extra mags were $26.95, I wish I had the forethought to buy some C mags when Centerfire Systems was blowing them out $19.99.

Caracal's marketing is still lacking. Hopefully, 2013 will be better.

YMMV

hardluk1
October 16, 2012, 04:27 PM
urban redneck do you still have pay a ffl fee. Went to the range a got a 125 rounds fired and am more than pleased with my C model. Good trigger and easy to shoot well even when only there to simple run rounds thru it. Fits a old cross beerd glock holster great too. Mine came from lipsey thru waffen works, early pistol with a 2 digit serial number. Styer could do better getting it to the hands of more wholesalers. None of my lgs normal wholesale dealers stock or deal with them or styer .

Urban_Redneck
October 16, 2012, 09:36 PM
Long story short....The dealer I bought my F from in May, ordered two at that time. He charged me approx $490 out the door. He has $500 :what: on the remaining F. I really wanted to try out the C, so I went to several other shops and the best I could do was $489 + Tax and they would have to order it.

Well hell, I asked around at my club and found a couple of dealers that do transfers for $20- $35. I checked on the www and found that the $20 transfer FFL dealer is on file with grab-a-gun... a couple of clicks... $419.99, shipped Done! I ordered some extra mags from JG sales.
http://images.thehighroad.org/smilies/shocker.gif
I'm taking a 500 round training course Saturday, that will be the most I've run it without cleaning -should be a good test. It would be great if the C would show up before then.

It would be nice to have more holster options. However, Steve at RKBA Holsters made me a nice Kydex rig for my F. If the C pistol is as good as the F, I'll get an IWB holster from him.

As to the marketing, aftermarket, etc. Remember; voices create choices Want (front) sight options? Call Brownells, Ameriglo, Trjicon, etc. Need a holster call your favorite holster makers. Manufacturers and dealers won't develop or stock products if there is no demand.

YMMV

JohnKSa
October 16, 2012, 11:27 PM
...voices create choices...My concern is that the aftermarket accessory market is going to be severely hampered by the roll-pins and other design choices. Changing the sights is probably the most common mod, next to changing grips, and the rear sight on the Caracal is part of the assembly that holds the firing pin & firing pin safety and that is roll-pinned to the slide. It's not that easy to change, and, my guess is that, given the critical parts it retains, it may never be considered a user-replaceable part by the manufacturer.

It's a great design if you like it just like it is, but it looks to me like it's going to be harder than most to accessorize. We shall see...

hardluk1
October 17, 2012, 08:29 AM
I can say that with a old cross breed type holster i did not like for a glock 19 that the Caracal C I have fits it very well. They may not fit a full kydex holster like from black hawk but it looks that the leather/kydex IWB types will work fine.


Grab-a-gun sure has NO deals now with all higher prices than you show for your in hand price. . I did better with my LGS that there price are currently.



I thought I was going to hate the sights on my standard C model as my older eyes don't work well with most as basic 2 or 3 dot sights. I like a bit more light between the front and rear sight too. Gota say they work better than some I have now includeing glocks 17 sights.

All I think I want is a red fiber optic .100 wide front sight. That would be on my list with most any pistol. Caracal has red fiber optic sights just got to get the usa company to bring them here.

Urban_Redneck
October 17, 2012, 10:42 AM
Being a molded polymer frame, I don't think it is possible to change the grip :) If you are referring to a product like the Grip Force Adapter for Glock pistols, it's not needed as there is no slide bite.

I like to tinker as well, though I have resisted up to this point doing a complete dis-assembly of the Caracal.

Roll pins are roll pins, as such roll pin punches and an armorers block should be used to remove and install them. Roll pins do have a finite life and should be replaced when damaged or exhibit signs of looseness. FWIW, HK, Sig, and many others also use roll pins, they became a standard in the late 20th century. Here's a roll pin punch set for $20 from Brownells.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_230112105_1.jpg

The rear sight notch on my F IIRC is .118", the front sight width is .146", that makes for little light visible either side of the blade. I am fairly new to pistol shooting, I struggled with getting a consistent sight picture. At one point, I was shooting quite a bit high :banghead:, remembering my A5 slug gun... I realized I was "cheating" the front sight up to get a better look (I wear reading glasses) I digress ;)

I thought almost daily about a new front sight or widening the rear .010". One day I channeled an old shooting buddy whose favorite refrain was "Just shoot the *&^$%#'n thing!" I focused a bit more on stacking the dots snowman style than trying to get the top of the blade level with top of the notch. POI came down and groups became smaller and rounder :D I still think I will mod the rear or get a new front, but, I was relieved to confirm the old adage, "It's the Indian, not the arrow".

Without some better marketing, it will take some time yet for the shooting public to decide where Caracal will fit in the pantheon of combat pistols. I really like this pistol I bought virtually, sight unseen.

I believe the Caracal and the PPQ have seriously raised the bar for $500 combat pistols.

YMMV, Schools Open, Drive Carefully, etc

Sam1911
October 17, 2012, 11:11 AM
Wonder how many times I'll repost this:

Remedial reading lesson:[Mod Talk: Let's drop the argument over the UAE and such. If you don't know anything about the CARACAL PISTOL itself, don't drag the conversation off into the weeds with off topic dross.]

hardluk1
October 17, 2012, 04:10 PM
SAM1911 Who the heck is arguing

urban I to have to get some better punchs. Like you I will take it completely apart just to see whats up. Have blocks but my punchs don't have the right size.

I like the grips on these caracals ,a, or atleast the fit and angle. I did pull a inner tube sleave over the grip for a little added stickum.

Just got back from a buddies place and was shooting steel for the last couple hours. Those stock sights ain't bad but like you something needs a bit of help with more side light. I even like the straight 8 style. But I to wear glass and have " and have a old frame set with a lens for 27" focus to see the darn sights. Still only marjinal. bad eye sight su,a, makes it harder. A narrower front sight would be the simplist to muck around with for me. I called caracal usa this morn about sight options and the reply was !?!? He would have to check. Now after a couple hundred more rounds fired I am very pleased with how easy it is to shoot these pistols well. Got to weight now for the glock holster body to come in for my MTAC holster to see how that works out.

Sam1911
October 17, 2012, 04:21 PM
SAM1911 Who the heck is arguing

Sometimes off-topic posts get "pruned" to keep the discussion focused. Sorry if the message is confusing after the thread is cleaned up.

If your post is still here, nothing to worry about. :)

Urban_Redneck
October 17, 2012, 04:29 PM
I need some glasses, I find it difficult to get clear focus on the top line of the rear sight. Jeeze, I'm only 47 and I'm looking for the geezer forum :o

tomrkba
October 17, 2012, 05:21 PM
I never buy newly designed guns. I have seen too many bugs across many designs from various manufacturers. I like to wait at least two years or more. I will wait on this gun, let some folks shake out the bugs and let a few people win competitions with them.

PabloJ
October 17, 2012, 06:38 PM
I handled a Caracal at the gunshow today and was really impressed with how it fit my hand. I've read a number of review and comments that speak favorably of it. My concern is with parts and service. Are parts available?
Is there reasonably competant customer service somewhere?
The two I looked over had superior ergonomics and finish to the Glock. I chose the Glock because of track record, service, aftermarket add ons, and resale value. I switch guns like others do socks or underwear and do not want to loose half gun value right after purchase. I am surprised the Glock is still with me.:what:

hardluk1
October 17, 2012, 07:24 PM
urban redneck maybe change your handle to urban redneck geezer- hehe . Welcome to the bad eye sight club. I need to find the stick on lenes to put at the top of my shooting glass's instead of rocking my neck up to see my shooting bifocal.

tomrkba How long does a nato approved firearm need to be around to prove it any good?? NATO approved in 2006. Only new here.

pablo . understand for the quick to sell guys. I still have my firearms for the mid 1970's. Just keep adding few to the pile.

HighRoadRover
October 17, 2012, 07:28 PM
The Caracal F is going for $424 on Bud's internet page.

It is an appealing looking pistol -- very clean lines. Early reviews indicate good fit and finish.

A lot has been said about the low bore axis, which to me is a real plus.

In a lot of ways, this is THE standard design today - striker fired, high capacity, polymer. Close to the FNH FNS-9, the Ruger SR-9, the S&W SD-9, etc. So execution becomes critical.

The key points to be considered are the sights (which are a little different) and aftermarket support. If we have a downturn in gun sales following the election -- if gun sales just flatten out -- will there still be a place in the market for Caracal in the future? At the prices cited -- perhaps.

TennJed
October 17, 2012, 08:30 PM
I never buy newly designed guns. I have seen too many bugs across many designs from various manufacturers. I like to wait at least two years or more. I will wait on this gun, let some folks shake out the bugs and let a few people win competitions with them.

Then consider the Caracal. It has been around for over 5 years

barnbwt
October 17, 2012, 09:55 PM
I switch guns like others do socks or underwear and do not want to loose half gun value right after purchase. I am surprised the Glock is still with me.

Used Caracals for ~200$? Sign me up :D;)

TCB

PabloJ
October 17, 2012, 10:03 PM
You will have to part with $325+/-25 to get one. The $200 is the trade in value at LGS.

JohnKSa
October 17, 2012, 11:10 PM
Being a molded polymer frame, I don't think it is possible to change the grip If you are referring to a product like the Grip Force Adapter for Glock pistols, it's not needed as there is no slide bite.No plans or desire to change the grips--my comment was about changing the sights and I was just pointing out that next to changing the grips, changing the sights is probably the most common mod made to pistols.Roll pins are roll pins, as such roll pin punches and an armorers block should be used to remove and install them. Roll pins do have a finite life and should be replaced when damaged or exhibit signs of looseness. FWIW, HK, Sig, and many others also use roll pins, they became a standard in the late 20th century. Here's a roll pin punch set for $20 from Brownells.I have a roll pin punch set--probably the one you mentioned although it's been awhile and I can't remember now where I purchased it.

What I don't have is a set of replacement roll pins for the Caracal. And it's not for lack of trying. I was able to locate a source for some of the pins (although they wanted minimum orders in the hundreds of pins the prices were fairly reasonable) but at least one pin size is nonstandard in the roll pin standard used for the particular part and I can't find it anywhere.

You are correct that roll pins are commonly used, but that doesn't make me like them any more.

You are also correct that they should be replaced when they are damaged or exhibit signs of looseness. The problem is that you typically find those things out when you remove the pins--which means that the prudent course of action is not to remove the pins until you have replacements on hand.

Shuler13
October 21, 2012, 05:16 AM
So, there is a recall on "a small number" of the C and F models. For those affected, you get a free mag for sending it in. Seems like they are trying to do right. Here is the release from Www.caracal-usa.com:

CARACAL F AND C PISTOL SAFETY WARNING AND RECALL NOTICECaracal USA has determined a potential condition of the trigger unit in a very limited number of Caracal F and C pistols that could possibly allow the pistol to fire when dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber. Although Caracal USA has not received any reports of injuries, it is initiating this voluntary recall to protect the safety of its customers because of the remote possibility of an unintentional discharge occurring. The affected Caracal pistols have serial numbers that begin with B, C, F, L, or M. If your pistol's serial number begins with one of these letters, please follow the following steps. Only the Caracal F and C pistols with the serial numbers identified above are affected by this recall. If your pistol has a different serial number, it is not subject to the recall. If you own a Caracal F or C pistol with a serial number identified as being affected by this recall, please do not load or fire your Caracal F or C pistol and contact us immediately to arrange to have the trigger unit replaced, completely free of charge, using the following steps: Step 1 - Contact us at 205-655-7050 (Monday-Friday 8-5 Central Standard Time), or at info@caracal-usa.com and provide the model and serial number of your pistol. Step 2 - After contacting us, we will send you a prepaid overnight shipping box with instructions so that you can return your pistol to us, free of charge. Step 3 - Your firearm will be returned as quickly and efficiently as possible. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause, and to thank you for your patience and cooperation, we will send you a free magazine when we return your pistol to you. For more information, you may visit www.caracal-usa.com or call Caracal USA at 205-655-7050

breacher
October 21, 2012, 12:11 PM
way back a few years ago when the rumors about this pistol started over at the Steyr Club forum (they now have a Caracal sub-forum) they were talking about a 40 cal and a 357 Sig caliber version to soon follow the 9mm. still waiting....................

after handling one at the LGS I was pretty impressed but a little concerned on how to install night sights. never seen a striker pistol with the rear sight incorporated into the slide striker plate cover.

bds
October 21, 2012, 01:13 PM
For me, accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes. When someone spoke praises of their newly acquired pistols, we had them run the USPSA match stages along with their familiar match pistols that were well broken in.

Often, higher priced "premium" pistols did not perform as well and "cheaper" pistols outshot their old favorites. I was very well versed with my Sig 226 but when I ran the same match stages with faster times using a new Glock 17 I was not familiar with, I was surprised to say the least in disbelief. I ran the stages repeatedly, but kept getting comparable double-tap accuracy with faster stage times with the G17.

Anyone had a chance to run the Caracal on USPSA/IDPA in comparison to other polymer pistols? For me, that would be the true "test by fire".

Thanks in advance!

hardluk1
October 21, 2012, 02:03 PM
If a person is buying a first pistol then maybe the caracal is not the best choice. If your someone that has assesory out a pistol then by a glock or what ever. If you simple want another pistol the caracal is a real option. Built to nato specs. Just a good solid pistol with good sights and great trigger that fits a hand better than does to many and more accurate than many out there makes it a very real option to buy. Price on my C was $431 out the door at my lgs.

Factory caracal shooter-http://www.facebook.com/teamjjracaza

JohnKSa
October 21, 2012, 04:04 PM
never seen a striker pistol with the rear sight incorporated into the slide striker plate cover.There isn't really slide striker plate cover. What appears to be the slide striker plate cover on the Caracal is actually the back of an assembly that fils most of the back half of the slide and contains the striker, striker spring and striker safety. The entire assembly is roll-pinned to the slide and the sight is part of the assembly.

Thanks to Shuler13 for the info on the recall notice.

hardluk1
October 21, 2012, 05:19 PM
It also darn hard to knock it off for way its mounted, Even with the aluminum front sight. Good for a service type pistol. No plastic sights ether as some have.

boricua9mm
October 21, 2012, 05:47 PM
Now with RECALL!
__________________

http://www.caracal.ae/new/highlights.php

___________________
"CARACAL F AND C PISTOL SAFETY WARNING AND RECALL NOTICE

Caracal USA has determined a potential condition of the trigger unit in a very limited number of Caracal F and C pistols that could possibly allow the pistol to fire when dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber. Although Caracal USA has not received any reports of injuries, it is initiating this voluntary recall to protect the safety of its customers because of the remote possibility of an unintentional discharge occurring.

The affected Caracal pistols have serial numbers that begin with B, C, F, L, or M. If your pistol's serial number begins with one of these letters, please follow the following steps.

Only the Caracal F and C pistols with the serial numbers identified above are affected by this recall. If your pistol has a different serial number, it is not subject to the recall.

If you own a Caracal F or C pistol with a serial number identified as being affected by this recall, please do not load or fire your Caracal F or C pistol and contact us immediately to arrange to have the trigger unit replaced, completely free of charge, using the following steps:

Step 1 - Contact us at 205-655-7050 (Monday-Friday 8-5 Central Standard Time), or at info@caracal-usa.com and provide the model and serial number of your pistol.

Step 2 - After contacting us, we will send you a prepaid overnight shipping box with instructions so that you can return your pistol to us, free of charge.

Step 3 - Your firearm will be returned as quickly and efficiently as possible.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause, and to thank you for your patience and cooperation, we will send you a free magazine when we return your pistol to you.

For more information, you may visit www.caracal-usa.com or call Caracal USA at 205-655-7050"
___________________


...and THAT, boys and girls, is why I am always hesitant to buy something in the first production year.

hardluk1
October 21, 2012, 08:15 PM
Would you mean a , ruger s&w , sig, glock 4 or one od so many that really don't claim a real problem with. hehe

Not a new pistol, just new here. been around 6 years. Caracal owners allready know about the recall . Heck, all firearm makers have some issues , some don't admit haveing problems too and are only fixed on a one at a time if the problem occurs base's. Caracal Unlike like so many today if they think they have a problem they get on it. Not bad for first recall in 6 years of production and only 2 dummy's dropped there guns hard enough to make something go wrong to get a recall. Same pistols that passed nato testing in germany. You don't want one fine , thats fine. You may have one of the many other makes with ongoing reoccuring issues with no factory recall.

Urban_Redneck
October 21, 2012, 08:18 PM
The pistol has been in service and testing since 2007, including passing all NATO D14 and German Federal Police tests. We Americans can break anything ;)

I have two pistols to go back, including the compact I picked up this morning.

Oh well, at least Caracal 1. Admits there could be a problem. 2. Is getting out in front of the situation by checking all the pistols. 3. Easing the pain with a free mag.

Next up is to see how fast they come back.

plouffedaddy
October 21, 2012, 08:59 PM
Oh well, at least Caracal 1. Admits there could be a problem. 2. Is getting out in front of the situation by checking all the pistols. 3. Easing the pain with a free mag.

100% agreed. I've got 2 going back too; very happy with how they're handling it so far. I have a G23 that got recalled years ago---still love it and continue to buy Glocks.

Grey Morel
October 21, 2012, 10:17 PM
This thread shows why new companies have such a hard time getting started in our industry.

No matter how good a product you make, you will be faced with <insults removed> xenophobes who "wont risk" buying your products ... as if such an action were the equivalent of playing chicken, or walking a tight rope. :rolleyes:

boricua9mm
October 22, 2012, 08:55 AM
This thread shows why new companies have such a hard time getting started in our industry.

No matter how good a product you make, you will be faced with <insults removed> xenophobes who "wont risk" buying your products ... as if such an action were the equivalent of playing chicken, or walking a tight rope.

On the contrary,<insults removed>. Of course, if you were to suffer an AD and put a round into your leg or into another person, you might be singing a different tune.

If the product is so great, then why would it be recalled for potential ADs?

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if all the hubub about the supposed NATO and German Military testing is actually based in fact. Is there any German government or NATO documentation to support this claim, or is it just another marketing ploy to get more Americans to fork over a few Franklins?

Urban_Redneck
October 22, 2012, 09:20 AM
Perfection

Creature
October 22, 2012, 09:29 AM
boricua9mm wrote:Is there any German government or NATO documentation to support this claim, or is it just another marketing ploy to get more Americans to fork over a few Franklins?

Yes, there is documentation.

http://www.caracal.ae/new/certificates.php

Sam1911
October 22, 2012, 10:50 AM
[MOD TALK: Keep it polite and gentlemanly or, if that's too difficult, withold your comments. If your post has been pruned, consider that a free warning.]

Urban_Redneck
October 25, 2012, 06:39 AM
The latest from Caracal


CARACAL SAFETY WARNING AND RECALL UPDATE

As an update to our October 19, 2012 recall notice, Caracal USA wishes to advise its customers that it will take approximately 12 weeks before we receive upgraded part(s) and can schedule a date for you to return your pistol to Caracal USA for this product upgrade. We apologize in advance for this inconvenience. We will provide a "loyalty package" for any customer who agrees to wait for this upgrade. The "loyalty package" includes: a free pistol magazine, T-shirt, cap and a 15% discount on your next purchase of a Caracal product. If you are unwilling to wait for this upgrade, Caracal USA will refund the full purchase price of your pistol.

Shuler13
October 25, 2012, 09:16 AM
Seems fair

Creature
October 25, 2012, 02:54 PM
Seems fair

Agreed!

Urban_Redneck
November 26, 2012, 11:01 AM
Caracal Safety Warning and Recall Update
Nov 24, 2012 7:42:23 AM

As a further update to our October 19, 2012 recall notice, Caracal USA, LLC is advising its customers that it has determined that the production tolerances in the grip frames of a very limited number of Caracal F and C pistols could possibly cause these pistols to fire if dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber.

In an effort to minimize the inconvenience to our customers, Caracal USA, LLC will exchange all affected pistols with brand new ones to avoid the delay associated with repairing and returning the pistols.

Shipment of these new replacement pistols is expected to begin in late December 2012, and to be completed by January 2013. Shipment of the replacement pistols will be made in the order in which the pistols were returned to Caracal USA, LLC.

We again apologize for any inconvenience, but the safety of our customers is of the utmost importance to Caracal USA, LLC. If you have any questions, or for further information, please visit www.caracal-usa.com, or call Caracal USA, LLC at (205) 655-7050.

Uggh, I'd like to keep my Waffen Werks marked Compact :(

plouffedaddy
November 26, 2012, 11:14 AM
Both of mine are WW marked as well. Oh well, as long as they keep the trigger pull/reset the same I'll take a new gun :D

hardluk1
November 26, 2012, 11:57 AM
No more wonder and wait for me right now . Mines been gone for buy back for two weeks. I will wait a while this time to see what they changed and how the fix as excepted.

PabloJ
November 26, 2012, 04:02 PM
Caracal Safety Warning and Recall Update
Nov 24, 2012 7:42:23 AM

As a further update to our October 19, 2012 recall notice, Caracal USA, LLC is advising its customers that it has determined that the production tolerances in the grip frames of a very limited number of Caracal F and C pistols could possibly cause these pistols to fire if dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber.

In an effort to minimize the inconvenience to our customers, Caracal USA, LLC will exchange all affected pistols with brand new ones to avoid the delay associated with repairing and returning the pistols.

Shipment of these new replacement pistols is expected to begin in late December 2012, and to be completed by January 2013. Shipment of the replacement pistols will be made in the order in which the pistols were returned to Caracal USA, LLC.

We again apologize for any inconvenience, but the safety of our customers is of the utmost importance to Caracal USA, LLC. If you have any questions, or for further information, please visit www.caracal-usa.com, or call Caracal USA, LLC at (205) 655-7050.

Uggh, I'd like to keep my Waffen Werks marked Compact :(
It's not like someone is forcing people to send them back so you can keep your gun just don't drop it on hard surface with round in chamber. I would send mine in if I owned one.

Urban_Redneck
November 26, 2012, 07:38 PM
It's a mostly hollow lament.

I bought the pistol from Grab a Gun didn't know it was WW imported. There's an implied "future collector value" to them... whether that exists or not, remains to be seen.

el Godfather
November 26, 2012, 11:08 PM
To Count,
You do know that signing infedel means that you renounce Islam, Christianity and Judism. Just FYI. If thats what you meant then be happy


As per Caracal, in this price range nothing beats it. I can tell they will rise in price as the company is making introduction in to the market and gas many other firearms lined up.

As for recall, I would avail it and the lotalty package.


Btw not all Chinese handguns are junk.

Urban_Redneck
November 27, 2012, 06:02 AM
With 4100 rounds through my Full size I'm nearly due for a new recoil spring anyway ;)

ny32182
November 27, 2012, 12:49 PM
I held one of these this past weekend for the first time, and all I can say is that it fits into my hand VERY nicely, and if it had an ambi slide catch there would be one going to the range with me this weekend.

The one I held was being set up for Production by a local well regarded smith here. His two biggest gripes were that the slide was very hard (and therefore hard to machine the notch for a real rear sight, but he got it done) and that there were not readily available aftermarket springs for it, so he was having to improvize by cutting coils, seeing what other springs would fit, etc.

I'll have my eye on it for sure. Make a 5.25" with full ambi controls and I'd be on it to try one out tomorrow.

jimbo555
November 27, 2012, 06:46 PM
You can get a m&p9 full size for 452.00.

Shuler13
November 27, 2012, 07:52 PM
I own an m&p and its gonna cost $100 (apex kit and RAM) to get a trigger close to as nice as the caracal. It's smoother, less gritty and has the tactile reset.

jimbo555
November 27, 2012, 08:18 PM
I own a m&p and I think the trigger is just fine the way it is.

Shuler13
November 28, 2012, 01:41 AM
Agreed. The M&P trigger is fine. The Caracal is great. I own both and won't sell either. But stating the M&P can be had for $452 vs $399 isn't really all there is to the story if a smooth trigger is really important to you. The major complaint I have read time and again about the M&P is the gritty trigger with no tactile or audible reset (a preference for many and a deal killer for some). The fix to which is the Apex kit and RAM. That equipment is an extra $100 not required on the caracal.

PabloJ
November 28, 2012, 02:20 AM
The S&W is not a bad pistol.
As for myself I will hold out for Arsenal 'Strike One' weapon. For my next piece I want something truly ugly.

jimbo555
November 28, 2012, 07:36 AM
I don't care how smooth the trigger is. I won't send any of my money to the uae.

Shuler13
November 28, 2012, 08:02 AM
Fair enough.

Prince Yamato
November 28, 2012, 08:28 AM
I really want the sub compact model. Does it still not make enough points for import?

Urban_Redneck
November 28, 2012, 10:02 AM
The UAE buys lots from us, I consider buying a couple pistols a polite gesture on my part ;)


U.S. in $3.5 billion arms sale to UAE amid Iran tensions

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON | Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:42am EST

(Reuters) - The United States has signed a $3.5 billion sale of an advanced antimissile interception system to the United Arab Emirates, part of an accelerating military buildup of its friends and allies near Iran.

bds
June 16, 2013, 09:54 PM
Just a thought ...

Had the Caracal been manufactured in a different country like Germany, we might be having a very different thread discussion ...

Who knows, a few years from now, we might be having Glock vs M&P vs Caracal thread discussions ...

For me, I think competition is healthy as it forces manufacturers to continuously improve their products. Just look at what auto racing did to our cars we drive ... Anyone care to guess why our family sedans have variable valve timing and 6/8 speed transmissions? Certainly not because of corporate bean counters ...

I say, bring it on and let the competitions begin!

Imagine what Gen5 Glocks and future M&Ps may be like in a few years ... I can't wait.
Well, I guess Caracal is going through growing pains ...

Recall #1: Production tolerance issues - http://www.caracal-usa.com/press/Caracal-Safety-Warning-and-Recall-Update-2/
Nov 24, 2012 7:42:23 AM

As a further update to our October 19, 2012 recall notice, Caracal USA, LLC is advising its customers that it has determined that the production tolerances in the grip frames of a very limited number of Caracal F and C pistols could possibly cause these pistols to fire if dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber.

Recall #2: Improperly heat treated slides - http://www.caracal-usa.com/press/Caracal-Model-C-Recall-Notice/
Mar 28, 2013 3:23:56 AM

TRUSSVILLE, Alabama – Caracal International LLC instituted a recall of Caracal Model C pistols on February 27, 2013 pending an investigation, because the safety of its consumers is paramount to Caracal.

Caracal has completed its investigation and determined that this recall only applies to a limited number of slides of Model C pistols that had been improperly heat treated.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=703129

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