Is 38 Spcl +P safe in a S&W Model 65 357 Magnum?


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gfanikf
October 16, 2012, 10:35 AM
Pretty sure it is (just more wear and tear), but I wanted to make sure if possible.

Thanks!

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1911Tuner
October 16, 2012, 10:37 AM
.38 Special +P doesn't even approach .357 Magnum pressures and recoil forces. Perfectly safe.

Carne Frio
October 16, 2012, 10:37 AM
Yes, it is safe.

Checkman
October 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
The 38+P topic is the new 45acp vs. 9mm topic. :)

Yes it's fine to shoot 38 +P in the Model 65. I shoot 38 +P+ in mine.

gfanikf
October 16, 2012, 10:41 AM
.38 Special +P doesn't even approach .357 Magnum pressures and recoil forces. Perfectly safe.

Yes, it is safe.

Thanks! I figured as much, but I'd rather take a few extra minutes to be sure than to find out the hard way!

The gun is really nice built and in pretty good shape, for $299 I felt it was a steal (especially with the original wooden S&W grips).

The 38+P topic is the new 45acp vs. 9mm topic. :)

Yes it's fine to shoot 38 +P in the Model 65. I shoot 38 +P+ in mine.

I was actually wondering about the +P+ stuff, but since it really is outside any normal pressure standards, I'm a tad hesitant.

Guillermo
October 16, 2012, 10:44 AM
Who would have thought that in 1971 when they changed the boxes on the regular 38 special ammo to say "+P" that anyone would fall for it?

Like slapping "GTO" on a Yaris and people wondering if it is too much power for the public roadways.

(shaking my head in disbelief)

gfanikf
October 16, 2012, 10:46 AM
Who would have thought that in 1971 when they changed the boxes on the regular 38 special ammo to say "+P" that anyone would fall for it?

Like slapping "GTO" on a Yaris and people wondering if it is too much power for the public roadways.

(shaking my head in disbelief)
I'd rather ask and seem silly, than not and seem dead if I'm wrong. :)

Dain Bramage
October 16, 2012, 10:53 AM
Who would have thought that in 1971 when they changed the boxes on the regular 38 special ammo to say "+P" that anyone would fall for it?

Like slapping "GTO" on a Yaris and people wondering if it is too much power for the public roadways.

(shaking my head in disbelief)

I blame you 1971 guys for not calling them on it.

That and the Mustang II. And leisure suits. And disco.

Guillermo
October 16, 2012, 11:35 AM
gfanikf

Please don't take any offense.

I was not aiming this at you but rather the whole "+P" thing. This is a reoccurring theme. (weekly at least on THR)

Please do not ever hesitate to ask a question. We all can learn something new. (heck, I spent 30 minutes yesterday asking reloading questions at a store yesterday...so I am no exception)

If you are interested in researching the "+P phenomenon" more, our very own SaxonPig wrote a great piece on the subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Best of luck

:D

Guillermo
October 16, 2012, 11:37 AM
Dain Bramage,

Do not blame disco on me!!!

Back then I was into cryin' and whinin' music.

Dain Bramage
October 16, 2012, 11:49 AM
Aha! So you admit to driving a Mustang II while wearing a leisure suit and willfully ignoring the .38 Spl +P travesty!?

I rest my case.

Guillermo
October 16, 2012, 11:54 AM
DB,

I admit no such thing!!!

And there is no photo evidence to prove it!!!

(actually in 1971 I was leaving my Schwinn stingray in the bushes so that I could stalk the wily grey squirrel with my trusty Benjamin pump)

DPris
October 16, 2012, 11:59 AM
GF,
No offense, but this question always causes me to wonder why people ask it.

How would using a .38 Special load in a revolver designed for hotter .357 Magnum loads not be "safe" in the gun?
Why do people think it wouldn't be?

It's always good to ask a question in learning, but that particular question mystifies me.
Denis

aHFo3
October 16, 2012, 12:13 PM
Is 38 Spcl +P safe in a S&W Model 65 357 Magnum?

Is it safe to break wind while sitting on the toilet?

gfanikf
October 16, 2012, 12:15 PM
gfanikf

Please don't take any offense.

I was not aiming this at you but rather the whole "+P" thing. This is a reoccurring theme. (weekly at least on THR)

Please do not ever hesitate to ask a question. We all can learn something new. (heck, I spent 30 minutes yesterday asking reloading questions at a store yesterday...so I am no exception)
Nah, it's okay, I understand. Trust me I love the fact that when I had a stuck primer at 1:30 AM EST I was able to post a message and get help very quickly. I just like the amount of quality information I can get. I also figured it might be a chance to learn about pressure a little more.


If you are interested in researching the "+P phenomenon" more, our very own SaxonPig wrote a great piece on the subject.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
Sweet I'll give that a read! I can use all the help I can get with +P and +P+ (the later I won't even touch).

Best of luck

:D
Thanks!

GF,
No offense, but this question always causes me to wonder why people ask it.

How would using a .38 Special load in a revolver designed for hotter .357 Magnum loads not be "safe" in the gun?
Why do people think it wouldn't be?

It's always good to ask a question in learning, but that particular question mystifies me.
Denis
It's not printed on the barrel and more to the point I have a poor understand of pressures and their effects on guns at this stage of the game. I can't even began to convey the issues I had with finally shooting 5.56 out of the Mini-14 GB that I used to have. I had people saying Ruger said it's fine, and others saying I'll blow the gun up...it was confusing. I'm hoping via getting started in reloading I can gain a better knowledge of this.

Is it safe to break wind while sitting on the toilet?
Depends if you know the person in the next stall. :D

The other reason is a person is selling Winchester Ranger T 38 spcl +P HP rounds on a local board and I'd like a box or two.

DPris
October 16, 2012, 12:27 PM
.38 Special rounds in ANY commercial loading offer markedly lower pressures than any commercial .357 Magnum load I'm aware of.
Handloading removes most absolutes, but in commercial ammunition .38 Special renders far LESS wear & tear on a good .357 Mag revolver than magnum ammunition does.

You'll tend to get a ring of carbon inside the chamber walls just at the end of the case with prolongued firing of .38s in a magnum chamber that can eventually accumulate heavy enough to interfere with loading the longer magnum cartridges, but it's not a safety issue & just requires attention to cleaning that carbon out regularly.

Shooting .38s through a .357 is no more dangerous than shooting .22 Shorts through a .22 Long Rifle revolver. Exactly the same principle- shorter rounds in a chamber designed for a longer round with higher pressures.
Denis

BSA1
October 16, 2012, 01:39 PM
I think us Old F**ts, er, mature, er, experienced, er, AARP eligible shooters tend to forget about novices.

DPris
October 16, 2012, 01:48 PM
Something as basic as .38 Special<.357 Magnum is...so basic it's hard to understand why the question keeps coming up. :)
Denis

R.W.Dale
October 16, 2012, 01:58 PM
How bout some numbers

38 spl +p 18,500 psi

357 mag 35,000 psi

End thread




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

ArchAngelCD
October 16, 2012, 03:14 PM
How bout some numbers

38 spl +p 18,500 psi

357 mag 35,000 psi

End thread
Actually the .38 Special +P has been brought back to where it originally was set.

.38 Special = 17,000 PSI
.38 Special +P = 20,000 PSI
.357 Magnum = 35,000 PSI

So, even if you shoot 100 +P's a day every day you will not accelerate wear on your revolver compared to even the lightest .357 Magnum ammo.

Now we can end the thread... :uhoh: (Mr. Dale made a very good point)

R.W.Dale
October 16, 2012, 03:17 PM
When was the +p upgraded to 20k?

Because all the sources I reference still cite 18.5k




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

Drail
October 16, 2012, 04:04 PM
Personally I will never be AARP eligible. I'll die before I ever become that liberal.

skt239
October 16, 2012, 06:31 PM
Is it safe to break wind while sitting on the toilet?

That's funny.

Radagast
October 16, 2012, 06:57 PM
From Askins on Pistols and revolver, published in the 1980s.

An interesting development with some dubious implications is the fact that some of the big ammo people aren't loading the .38 as hot right now as they were 10 years ago. Remington had a 158 grain plain lead bullet at 1090 fps and a very decent 425 ft pounds of energy in 1970, today this number only rocks along at 915 fps & produces 295 ft lb of muzzle smash.
Winchester Western, long time makers of a 150 grain metal piercing load used to soup it up to 1060 fps & 375 ft lb of muzzle gee whiz. Today this old timer has been cut back to 910 fps & 276 of ME. Just what is to gain from the +P gimmickry is any bodies guess.
These reductions are somewhat offset by Norma-Precision which continues to offer their 110 grain jacketed hollow point at 1542 fps & a resounding 580 ft lb of muzzle swoosh. this is the fastest and hottest .38 ctg on the market today. The company, which has a commendable habit of quoting breech pressures states that their ctg develops 18,400 CUP of pressure. This is quite nominal.

skidder
October 16, 2012, 07:09 PM
When was the +p upgraded to 20k?

Because all the sources I reference still cite 18.5k

Good question. All my sources say 18.5

Black Knight
October 16, 2012, 07:15 PM
Do you have a 3 or 4 inch model 65? When off duty the gun I carry most is a 3 inch 65 with 125 Gr. SJHP 38 Spec+P. My wife has dificulty with the magnum round so her 2 1/2 inch 66 has the same 38 Spec+P load.

Radagast
October 16, 2012, 08:50 PM
http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm lists 17.000 PSI standard, 20,000 +P.
Lever guns.com lists 17.000 & 18,500.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

The European maximum for .38 special is 22,000.
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

ArchAngelCD
October 16, 2012, 11:11 PM
When was the +p upgraded to 20k?

Because all the sources I reference still cite 18.5k
I don't remember where I read it, sorry...

roaddog28
October 16, 2012, 11:44 PM
Pretty sure it is (just more wear and tear), but I wanted to make sure if possible.

Thanks!
I don't think you should believe any of us. Decide for yourself.

38 +P SAAMI max pressure limits 20,000 psi.

357 magnum SAAMI max pressure limits 35,000 psi.

There you go. You make the call.
Howard

jfh
October 17, 2012, 12:38 AM
I lost that link about adjusting the pressure, too--but IIRC, it has occurred because it WAS adjusted after the original 18.5K SAAMI standard came out, and the manufacturers howled--so it was put up to 20K. Essentially, the issue is this:

It was put up to 20K after the current SAAMI standard was published--but, because there has been no new standard published, the old one stands until it is.

Maybe we can find out from the Speer Gold Dot development article on the GDSB HP white paper.

But, in closing, remember that the 38-CIP (European) standard, for all 38 Special Ammo, is the metric equivalent to 21,750 PSI. That was set in 1981, IIRC.

Do you really think reputable mfrs the world around have been making 38 special guns good to only 17,000 for the US and then upping their metallurgy to 21,750 to sell in the European markets?

Jim H.

1911Tuner
October 17, 2012, 06:38 AM
Something as basic as .38 Special<.357 Magnum is...so basic it's hard to understand why the question keeps coming up.
Denis

Mainly because not everybody is well-versed in things of a go-bang nature. I'd rather answer the question 3 times a day than make a beginner hesitant to ask about something that he's just gotten started with. Part of THR's mission statement is to inform and to teach.

jfh
October 17, 2012, 07:21 AM
I will probably try to chase down my documentation on this 38 Special pressure discussion today--but a lot of my links are broken from an incomplete export to Chrome, so we shall see if they can be found.

I also suspect that part of the fog in this topic is the background noise on the Speer #8 / SR4756 loads--but that is too far off topic to hit in this thread, and really shouldn't be pursued.

Anyone else interested in getting the history back up here to current discussion, feel free to google for it. I do recall that ArchangelCD has posted it correctly, but that was some years ago.

Jim H.

Old Fuff
October 17, 2012, 10:56 AM
I'd rather ask and seem silly, than not and seem dead if I'm wrong.

Which is good advise for anyone. ;)

Not to start the argument again over use of .38 Special Plus-P loads in certain .38 revolvers; I will take the opportunity to point out that in older data pressure was expressed in units of CPU or Copper Pressure Units rather the PSI or Pounds per Square Inch.

The two are not the same, and have no relation to each other, yet many seem to think that the numbers are interchangeable. Be sure you know which is which before jumping to any conclusions. :uhoh:

BCRider
October 17, 2012, 12:04 PM
gfanikf, a resource you can study which will ease your fears and which has the same sort of pressure information as the others have given is the Reloading Data Center on the Hodgdon web site. You can look at the max pressure levels that is typically generated for each load and come up with an average max value for regular .38Spl, the +P and+P+ as well as the full out .357Mag loads. You'll quickly see that the +P and +P+ don't come up to anywhere near even the middle of the .357Mag pressure range.

sidheshooter
October 17, 2012, 02:10 PM
(actually in 1971 I was leaving my Schwinn stingray in the bushes so that I could stalk the wily grey squirrel with my trusty Benjamin pump)

Hah! 1977, and Starlings...

But same bike, same strategy, same pump (Beeman silver bear FTW!)

Oh, and I have shot tons of "+P+" in K-frame .38s, back when one of my teachers was a corbon dealer and they did a version of the old "RCMP" (sort of an "FBI" on steroids) load. FWIW.

ArchAngelCD
October 17, 2012, 02:35 PM
I will probably try to chase down my documentation on this 38 Special pressure discussion today--but a lot of my links are broken from an incomplete export to Chrome, so we shall see if they can be found.

I also suspect that part of the fog in this topic is the background noise on the Speer #8 / SR4756 loads--but that is too far off topic to hit in this thread, and really shouldn't be pursued.

Anyone else interested in getting the history back up here to current discussion, feel free to google for it. I do recall that ArchangelCD has posted it correctly, but that was some years ago.

Jim H.
Yeah, I lost all my links last year because of a computer crash. I had my pictures and documents backed up but forgot all about my links! :banghead:

Guillermo
October 17, 2012, 02:36 PM
Be sure you know which is which before jumping to any conclusions

absolutely

I had a nice long conversation with S&W on the subject. They said that my (fictitious) 1965 Model 10 could 20,000 PSI. When I pointed out the pressure of +P there was a long silence...then a "yes sir...but we still don't recommend it"

Logic and S&W are strangers.

Guillermo
October 17, 2012, 02:38 PM
same bike, same strategy, same pump

Sadly it is rare to see kids on bikes with pellet guns these days.

Heck, it is rare for kids to ride bikes.


Or be outside.

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