Is there really a lead dust issue tumbling brass

I read that lead dust is a concern and care should be used when tumbling and using the media separator when cleaning brass.

I can see how that could be a issue is shooting non jacketed lead bullets but if they are jacketed is that really a concern ?

I ask cause i have kids and i don't want take any chances with lead dust being any ware near them

thanks

It's not the bullets that should concern you, it's the primers. Lead in bullet form is not as dangerous as many think. The lead has to be airborne or be ingested to be harmful. It's extremely difficult for the lead in bullets to become airborne. The primers are much more dangerous because when airborne the lead in them can enter your body through your lungs.

I keep the top on the tumbler when it's running and I separate the media from the brass out the back door so the dust doesn't stay in the basement.

There's certainly lead residue, as well as a mix of nasty chemicals leftover from smokeless combustion. It's absolutely toxic. I don't know the actual lead content, but I do know even sorting old brass gives my fingers a very lead-like sheen. That's one reason I started using gloves and went with a thumbler style wet tumbler. It's also quieter, more compact and does a better job on the brass.

I can see how that could be a issue is shooting non jacketed lead bullets but if they are jacketed is that really a concern ?
Are you tumbling the bullets or the cases? :)

ArchAngel has said it, already. Priming compound's active ingredient is lead styphnate. The sooty, flaky crud inside the cases and especially in the primer pockets contains oxidized lead compounds which are finely powdered and lighter than elemental lead. This is what gets gets airborne when tumbling and separating the media. It's still pretty heavy, though, and it settles on the nearby surfaces. You'll find piles of this powder around the bottom of your press after decapping a bunch of cases. So just imagine taking that powder and putting it in a tumbler with your media where it gets ground into even finer particles and shaken around. Well, you don't have to imagine it, cuz it's already in there.

This topic comes up all the time. I used a lead test on my reloading bench. Came up negative but I clean it often. It's also my casting area. I have yet to use one where I use my tumbler. I'm interested to see of that area comes up negative. I tumble thousands of rounds of range pickups a month so the tumbler runs quite often.


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I've been reloading and using a vibrating tumbler for almost 40 years. Also casting bullets.

I've probably averaged 500 rounds a week, mostly 45 ACP.

I don't take any special precautions while tumbling or sorting brass or casting bullets.

About 5 years ago I had a lead test done as part of my annual physical. Doctor asked why I wanted it, I told him that I shot and reloaded a lot and was interested if there were any effects I should be aware of.

My test came back completely normal.

I always put the cover on my tumbler when tumbling. ;) I'm usually not in the room when the tumbler's running.

I also get the black, shiny, slippery substance on my hands when pawing-through the media upon sifting.

I would say that it very much IS lead, among other things. Just this morning, I sifted some media and realized this was the last time I am going to do it indoors. I also keep the tumbler lid on while tumbling to prevent the media dust from going literally EVERYWHERE!

I never have any reason to "paw through the media." I use a rotating separator.

I never have any reason to "paw through the media."

I don't, either, when I am tumbling brass, however, I had tumbled a bunch of corroded copper and brass electrical connections, split bolts, nuts, washers, etc. which meant I had to pour very slowly and grab the small parts before they fell through the course sifter I was using. Being brass and copper, a magnet wouldn't have worked.

I never have any reason to "paw through the media." I use a rotating separator.

Neither do I, and I use a wire mesh collander I purchased at WalMart for less than $2.00. Works like a charm being as I also use 20/40 grit corn cob. Flows like fine sand.

Over about an 18 month period, I tumbled well over 100,000 once-fired M118LR brass that I was selling. This was done in a basement with no ventilation. Blood testing for lead revealed a lead level of between 2 and 3 (very low), for which a level of 25 is determined as requiring medical intervention. In addition, I cast lead bullets in the same unventilated basement. Bottom line? Keep your fingers out of your mouth and wash your hands when you are done, and you will be fine.

Don

I use a vibrating type case cleaner and change the medium as soon as it satrst turning grey. Ground corn cob and walnut shells are purchsed quite inexpensively from the pet stores.

Wow some really interesting information here. Thanks!. Had no idea the lead was in the primers . So some real care needs to taken in cleaning primer pockets and removing primers as well.

So what cleaning method would be the best for limiting the amount of exposure ?

traditional corn cob/walnut method

stainless steel pins?

Ultrasonic?

Thanks again for the wealth of info.

I have never had a lead test. I do cast bullets, shoot and reload lead bullets.
When I use the tumbler, I put it on the patio and any dust can then be outside, not in the house. I do my casting out on the patio too. I really don't think there is any big sweat about it if we take some sensible precautions. Keeping hands away from the face and washing hands is important I think.

My experience has been the same as USSR's. I run three tumblers most of the time in my garage, cast bullets and load ammunition there, too. My last blood test for lead showed well within the normal range at 9, and I've been doing this since 1963. I've loaded well over 750,000 rounds of various calibers of ammunition during that time, and since I don't give it away or sell it, that means I've shot that many rounds, too.

Everybody handles so called "toxic substances" differently. Anything can cause a problem, i.e.: Sugar, etc. If it makes you feel good to suit up in a Hazmat outfit, wear surgical gloves, booties and a mask while loading and tumbling, then go for it, but your exposure is greater when the round is fired.

Common sense dictates you should wash your hands after handling lead and lead products and keep your hands out of your mouth and nose prior to washing your hands. Don't eat or smoke while reloading, etc. These simple things will prevent you from having an abnormal blood lead level.

Hope this helps.

Fred

The "black shiny stuff" is carbon from burned gunpowder residue.

Tumbling creates a dust issue, even if you run the tumbler with the lid on. So, I do all my tumbling outside the back door. Dry breezy weather is best.

I put a drier sheet in my tumbler and it seems to make a difference on how much dust gets into the air.

Bottom line? Keep your fingers out of your mouth and wash your hands when you are done, and you will be fine.

Sorry, but in my case that's not necessarily true.
About a year or two ago I asked my Dr for the lead test.
It came back at 29!
I don't cast, I don't tumble in the house,
I don't smoke, I don't eat in my reloading area
& I always wash my hands after shooting or reloading.

By the way, I was using a lot of lead bullets (10,000+/yr)
(when fired, the smoke was pretty bad)

I was able to cut it by 1/3 (to 20) in about 4 months, by using plated or jacketed only.
I'm going again Oct 31, I'll see if he'll order a lead test again.

I shoot and load about 1000+ 9mm/mo avg.
One thing I do is not to avoid lead, but to avoid crudding up may main press and tumbler media. I wash my range brass outdoors, and deprime on a single stage on the patio.

The outdoor press gets filthy and requires frequent cleaning. The main press in my garage stays clean for a looong time.
I tumble in the garage, and washing and depriming first makes my media have less dust and stay cleaner at least twice as long as it did.

Maybe side benefits are good ventilation, less by-products in the media and less dust to come in contact with.

Now my 'grass' may have some significant heavy metal problems.

Are you shooting those 10,000 rounds indoors?
If so find a new range because their air filtration system is not working properly.

+1 on the dryer sheet. I add 4 or 5 1"x3" strips per load along with a capful of nufinish with my 50-50 cob/walnut media (covered). No dust. Of course I always tumble outside for noise reasons too.

When handling the cases after tumbling, I use those nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight, $6 for a box of 100, pretty cheap protection! I've always had about 3 boxes on my reload bench, even when cleaning my revolvers I wear them, you got 'em, use 'em!

I put a capful of mineral spirits in with my walnut shells in the vibrating tumbler. No dust. I also started using the Harbor Freight nitrile gloves a few months ago on the hand that reaches into the tumbler. I have one of those rotating media separators but seldom use it.

I also cast several thousand bullets per year. No kids around and it's all done in the garage.

Low lead levels the last test but why chance it?

Are you shooting those 10,000 rounds indoors?
If so find a new range because their air filtration system is not working properly.

^^^ This.

Lead in the air from poorly loaded cast bullets fired on an indoor range with poor ventilation will elevate lead levels.

If you have a gas check, load a less smoky powder/lube combo, etc...you can reduce the immediate exposure on firing. Shooting outdoors will make a HUGE difference.

Also, if you deprime before you tumble, you are getting the lion's share of the lead out of the case before you shake it to hell.

I then dump the primers into my brass recycling bucket. The primer compound adds to the weight a little, I suppose, so that's an added bonus vs shaking all the primer compound out of the primers in a tumbler before recycling them.

Switching from cast lead bullets and exposed lead base FMJs to TMJ plated bullets that enclose the base of the bullet will reduce your airborne lead exposure when shooting by 95% per the Rainier Ballistics website.

I have tumbled brass indoors and out for the past 23 years and simply wash my hands and blow my nose after handling brass. I also blow my nose after shooting. It will surprise you (it did me) what accumulates inside your nose, especially after shooting indoors.

Just my .02 and not trying to be gross,
LeonCarr

Lead poisoning is very serious and there should be zero lead in your body, any lead that is in your body got there from man made items. As more and more medical evidence has accumulated over time, what was considered an acceptable amount of in body lead keeps on going down, down, down.

The current arguments are on how low should the standards go.

This is an example:

DRAFT NTP MONOGRAPH ON HEALTH EFFECTS OF LOW-LEVEL LEAD

In children, there is sufficient evidence that blood Pb levels <5μg/dL are associated with increased diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), greater incidence of problem behaviors, and decreased cognitive performance as indicated by lower academic achievement and specific cognitive measures. There is also limited evidence that blood Pb <5μg/dL is associated with delayed puberty, decreased IQ, and decreased kidney function in children 12 and older. There is sufficient evidence that blood Pb levels <10μg/dL in children are associated with delayed puberty, reduced postnatal growth, and decreased cognitive performance as indicated by lower IQ. Although there is sufficient evidence that blood Pb levels of 10μg/dL and below are associated with elevated serum IgE, a principle mediatory of hypersensitivity, there is only limited evidence that blood Pb levels <10μg/dL are associated with changes to IgE-related health outcomes such as allergy diagnosed by skin prick test to common allergens.

In adults, epidemiological data provide sufficient evidence that blood Pb levels <5μg/dL are associated with decreased renal function and blood Pb levels <10μg/dL are associated with increased blood pressure, hypertension, and increased cardiovascular-related mortality. There is sufficient evidence that maternal blood Pb levels <10μg/dL are associated with reduced fetal growth and limited evidence that they are associated with increased spontaneous abortion and preterm birth. The data also support a conclusion of limited evidence for an association between blood Pb <10μg/dL and decreased auditory function, neurodegenerative diseases including amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and essential tremor, and decreases in specific measures of cognitive function in older adults
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/NTP/ohat/Lead/DraftNTPMonographonHealthEffectsofLowLevelLead.pdf

For current industry exposure:


The current OSHA standard (29 CFR 1926.62) for lead exposure in construction has a permissible exposure limit (PEL) of 50 micrograms per cubic meter of air (50 µg/m3), measured as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA).

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_3.html

Based on my readings, any exposure to lead is bad and efforts should be taken to minimize injestion or inhalation.

While it should have been obvious, it turns out the greatest source of airborne lead exposure comes from shooting.

Remember that the OSHA exposure limits are 50 micrograms per cubic meter.

April 1977, REPORT NO. BRL 1976, REDUCTION OF AIRBORNE LEAD CONTAMINATION IN INDOOR FIRING RANGES USING MODIFIED AMMUNITION Arpad A. Juhasz


The above referenced report shows a 158 L bullet fired in a S&W M10 38 Special, with a lead styphnate primer, the average shot put 5643 micrograms of lead into the air. Fired with a lead free primer the average shot put 3380 micrograms of lead into the air. When the barrel was cleaned of lead fouling, copper jacketed lead free primers put an average of 13 micrograms of lead in the air. If you read the report, they really never removed all the lead fouling and so it is uncertain just how much lead would come out with a barrel that was only shot with copper jacketed bullets and lead free primers, but it would probably be less.

I find it amazing that each shot from a 38 Special blows 5643 micrograms of lead in the air. This quantity of lead in the air provides a reason to all the reports of elevated lead levels from shooters at indoor ranges. There is an indoor range where I live, I have shot in it, the air flow away from the firing points is fast, but coincidentally one of the Range Attendants uses my Doctor. My Doc said this guy has high lead levels in his blood. The exact numbers are none of my business. I think the first order things you should do if you really want to limit your lead exposure is to avoid indoor ranges, and shoot copper jacketed bullets.

I have not seen any measurements of lead in tumbler media, regardless, I take my tumbler outside when I am removing the brass from the media, I don’t want airborne lead particles floating around with the media dust. I also wash my hands after I button everything back up.

You expect me to believe government studies?

You actually expect me to take for gospel anything published by OSHA?

I don’t want airborne lead particles floating around with the media dust.

Very doubful particles of lead will float very high or for very long for that matter. Even so I see your point.

But I do tumble my cases indoors, seperate media and cases indoors, cast indoors, blood levels numbers have never been higher than 6, normally in the 4 range.

YMMV

I been tumbling those cases ( just behind my back) for over 40 years------
now you tell me that this is very dangerous---WOW
Now, I won't be able to sleep tonight----------------:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

You can always wet tumble with stainless media and make this a non-issue.

Your greatest exposure will come when your are dumping out the contents of the tumbler and seperating the brass from the media..... If you shine a light at the right angle you will see a cloud of fine dust raise up from the seive and bucket below.

I use the RCBS clam shell seperator and not only does it work quickly and completely seperate the media, but the entire process takes place within the enclosed shelll.

After spinning the brass in the seperator, I leave it sit for a few minutes so the dust settles inside and then remove and empty the basket.

The best overprices piece of molded plastic I ever bought.

This simple precaution and the fact that I rarely shoot at indoor ranges has kept my lead level <1 (none measured).

FWIW- if you ARE really paranoid.........

60923 3m filters are supposedly good lead particulate and vapor filters.

I believe they filter down to .3 or 3 Microns not exactly sure which- substanitally smaller than lead dust either way. .... HSO could throw his coppers in on that one to verify.

Obviously different people will have different circumstances and even different reactions and outcomes based on similar exposures to lead. That being the case, it's a hard argument to refute at least taking the easy precautions when dealing with lead substances while reloading. Why tumble in the house if you have a garage? Why separate the media from the brass inside when you can do it outside? Why not clean up around a reloading area and the floor occasionally? It's a bit more work than not licking your fingers after reloading or shooting, but a small cost of time for if nothing else, a little more peace of mind.

You mean I shouldn't lick that gray stuff off my fingers every few hundred rounds when loading those cast bullets I made in the spare bedroom?

Obviously different people will have different circumstances and even different reactions and outcomes based on similar exposures to lead. That being the case, it's a hard argument to refute at least taking the easy precautions when dealing with lead substances while reloading. Why tumble in the house if you have a garage? Why separate the media from the brass inside when you can do it outside? Why not clean up around a reloading area and the floor occasionally? It's a bit more work than not licking your fingers after reloading or shooting, but a small cost of time for if nothing else, a little more peace of mind.

Why? Because thats where my set-ups are and thats where I like doing it. And I've yet to any concerns with it. Do I get checked by a Dr.? You bet, I'm a cancer survivor, if you know anything about being a cancer survivor you know you're going to the Dr. for the rest of your life. One of the tests I ask for is a test for lead and heavy metals while I'm having blood work done. I'm also diabetic, so I go to the Dr. regularly for that also.

Why do people drive and talk/text on the cell phone? Why do people drive when half tanked? Why do people go over the speed limit? Why do people still smoke cigs?

Nobody is telling anyone what to do, just pointing out that every individual has different reactions to lead exposure. Your results taking fewer precautions than another person might result in a poor outcome if universally followed. Plenty of folks drink and drive routinely and don't kill anyone. Plenty of people smoke for 30 years and suffer no adverse outcomes. While your obviously being at least somewhat prudent with exposure or you would almost certainly have high levels, my point is that for most people it's probably better to do the easy stuff like relocating their tumbling to garage or outdoors. It's the low hanging fruit of safety; kind of like seat belts.

"I read that lead dust is a concern and care should be used when tumbling and using the media separator when cleaning brass."

Care, yeah, we do read that and care applies to most everything. But the fear is Chicken Little BS to us. There is a tiny bit of lead styphnate in those little bitty priming compound pellets but most of it gets blown out the barrel and virtually none remains inside a case so there's very little real lead contamination in tumbling media.

The media dust that raises so much fear in some folk is simply the normal dust remaining after the nut or cob media is ground AND the dried polish most people use far too much of. Neither dust is desireable to breath but they aren't poison either.

The gray color that gets on hands while handling lead bullets is toxic but it won't soak through your skin. Just don't lick your dirty fingers clean or pick your nose after handling lead and all will be well.

Bottom line, do whatever it takes to quite your own fear factor

I been tumbling those cases ( just behind my back) for over 40 years

I'd say they should be 'bout done.

Can we get a range report?

You expect me to believe government studies?

You actually expect me to take for gospel anything published by OSHA?

Its your Government, you don't have to listen to them, you are also free to publish your own studies and get them peer reviewed.

Or if that is too much trouble you can wear an AFBD:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/usage.html

Plenty of people smoke for 30 years and suffer no adverse outcomes.

I think these famous and dead celebrities would have recommended not smoking:

http://smokeaway.wordpress.com/2007/11/29/227-famous-people-who-died-because-they-smoked/

Going to toss something out here that I've wondered about for the last few years. Not really gun related but definitely lead related.

I wish I could take one of those so called deadly toys painted with lead paint and remove all the paint then remove everything other than the lead and actually see just what a huge chunk of lead I'd have and I might even have a new source for getting lead for casting bullets.

Who knows.

Lead poisoning is very serious and there should be zero lead in your body...

Even people who are not involved in shooting or reloading in any way will have some lead in their body. I doubt you will find anyone whose test results are zero for lead and a host of other nasty metals or chemicals. Heck, we all are exposed to radiation every day. As long as your results are determined to be so low as to require no medical intervention, you are fine.

Don

Its your Government, you don't have to listen to them, you are also free to publish your own studies and get them peer reviewed.

Or if that is too much trouble you can wear an AFBD:



Pay little attention to what OSHA says. Had enough run ins with them while at work. Last time I conversed with an OSHA dude I told him where he could go, how to get there, and what to do while there. Doubt very much he followed my advice, but I wish he would have for he was trying to tell me how to operate a machine that he had never seen before and had no idea what it accomplished.

I'm retired now and doing any studies isn't going to happen, to much fun playing and no time for work.. I'll just take the Dr.s word for what the blood levels are.

Regarding the AFBD, you wear them, just stay far away from me, or I may have to resort to violent acts.

If you pour just a little generic paint thinner in your tumbler media you won't have any dust when separating.

1. I put some clear plastic over my tumbler so the dust does not come out at all while vibrating. It used to put some gray dust on the floor out in my shop.

2. I wear those blue Nitrel gloves while playing in the tumbler media.

3. Changing the media for new stuff a little more often cuts down on the dust.

4. The Navy, Army and Airforce used to make us clean weapons inside big drums of solvent (Like PD-680 Dry Cleaning Solvent) with our bare arms. Plus breath the fumes.
Not to mention the asbestoes I have pulled out, the lead based paint that I sprayed without a resperator and so on....

So one day I will be laying in bed coughing to death, but at least I will know why and that I had fun doing it....
Meanwhile, Mr. no-lead bullet, safety awareness, all natural food, guy will be laid out in the bed next to me dying from boredom ,,,,

I worked as a federal communications research site safety officer for seven years. What little interface I had with OSHA and EPA confirmed they're a bunch of self important asses with chips on their self important shoulders but devoid of common sense; both of those bureaucracies outlived their usefulness 30 years ago (ditto most of the rest of them). You can believe any 'hazard test' data the government produces is hugely distorted to support their own continued existance; they have to support their own children you know. (Being a govey ain't much but it beats working for a living!)

Lead in the air from poorly loaded cast bullets fired on an indoor range with poor ventilation will elevate lead levels.

When I was shooting cast bullets indoors, I got concerned about my lead level. Blood test came back 51!. First thing I did was can (or give away) all my lead bullets. Went to copper plated; but still shooting indoors. Next test three months later - 25. Started shooting outdoors. Tests have been between 4-8 ever since. I've been reloading and tumble cleaning indoors for years. It could be that the indoor tumbling is the cause of this lingering small amount of lead in my blood. I just recently started ultrasonic cleaning (with tumbling only clean cases for polishing). I'll be curious if that reduces my lead level even more.

But, FWIW, I did a lot of research on blood lead levels. Lead levels of over 10 in children under 5-6 can lead to slight brain damage. Past the age of six the risk of brain damage almost disappears. However, there is then the risk of infertility into teen-age years. OSHA has a work place requirement of no more than 25. And it appears that after the teen-age years, there is little to no risk of infertility at a blood lead level under 25. But even though OSHA has set the limit at 25, other than the ongoing risk of infertility, a blood lead level of 25 to 50 will not cause health problems. At my age, infertility is pretty much the least of my concerns! :p

Pay little attention to what OSHA says.

OSHA MSDSs have given me some good backup in the past when someone supervisory told me "That stuff won't hurt ya." I haven't done that kind of work for a long time, but there were once some people around for whom getting product out the door was WAY more important than worker safety. When I was a 23-year-old line worker, I was considered "easily replaceable."

I don't want to argue, I'm just saying that not everything the government does is bad.

"I think these famous and dead celebrities would have recommended not smoking"

I just skimmed that list of dead folk and have to wonder what the average death rate for their contemporaries has been? Whatever, government hasn't outlawed smoking, they can't because they want the tax money it generates! And, believe me, NONE of the people on that list was unaware of the risks, cigarettes were being called 'coffin nails' and 'cancer sticks' in elementary school yards in the early 1940s. We all make our choices for how we will live; some of us like that but others seem to want government 'help' chosing how they will live. :barf:

I suppose those who want to live in total safety would be most happy locked in a prison under total government control with filtered air, proper exercise and approved menus; our "liberal" politicians would love to make us live like that too, for the kids you know! :D

However, there is then the risk of infertility into teen-age years.

Considering some of the teens I see out and about in the cities, that right there could very well be a Blessing.

Been tumbling with corn cob for35 years and tons of shooting nowadays more in indoor ranges. Blood lead levels came as 66 in Feb. Stopped all lead bullet shooting,indoor range and tumbling and wear half face lead rated respirator and nitrile gloves and use lead wipes on my hands and lead removal detergent on my workbench all the time. Also always wash my clothes and change shoes etc. after a while you get used to it and it doesnt take that long. Lead level is now 21. I had a lab come to house and check lead levels and the worst was where I did my media seperation. I set up for wet tumbling but cant do the volume that you can in dry.Wet also has other problems.I think one has to look at the whole picture and not just tumbling. BY the way my wife tested at 3. In my case I think it is mainly from the indoor range. Also somewhere along the line you have to deprime and that lead styp will be a problem. Looked up forensics and when the police do a gunshot residue test they find arsenic and all kinds of nasty stuff. anyway enough said.I'm going to keep shooting and reloading but only take much more precautions need it or not.

Would it be better if I deprimed and separated media outside?

Is there really a lead dust issue tumbling brass

Yes.

Would it be better if I deprimed and separated media outside?

Yes.

We have to go through all this again? :banghead:

Was thinking the same!

If it bothers you, do it elsewhere.

blarby sure doesn't let the fact that he has little to no personal experience get in the way of his opinions.:rolleyes:

Don

Don sure doesn't let a little science get in the way of stating that he's a .... !

I also dearly love the belief that I have no experience.

Awfully sure he also really doesn't understand that we're on the same team, but hey- the blind rarely do.

Lefty, I'm sorry you had the misfortune to ask an honest question. Many here are afraid of honest answers. About the best you are going to get is sifting through the responses, and choosing for yourself where the truth lies.

Being as the beat just keeps going on-----------------------

Now, now boys, lets be nice!

Lefty, I'm sorry you had the misfortune to ask an honest question. Many here are afraid of honest answers.

I've come to the conclusion it mostly about the individual. Some get near lead and its compounds and just soak it up, others seem to be pretty safe from it. Why do I say this? By my own bloods levels taken two times a year now.

Maybe HSO can chime in as to why my levels stay so low.

Cast indoors over a coleman stove, do not wear a mask, do not shoot indoors, blood levels run between 4 & 6. This is fact, not opinion.