March 2004 Virtual Match: Comments and Questions Thread

[El Rojo]

This is the comments and questions thread for the March 2004 Virtual Match for Fellow THR Members (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68233)

DO NOT POST COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS IN THE OTHER THREAD!!!

PLEASE POST COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS HERE!!!

Thank you.

[jamz]

Might be a nitpicky point, but for stopwatch class, who yells "Go!", the stopwatch holder, or shooter?

Also, for the relaoding stage, where can you pull the second magazine from? Can you have it on a table in front of you, or does it have to be from a pocket? (Assuming gun is holstered). I ask because I have a holster but no mag carrier or anything.

-James

[El Rojo]

Very good questions. The person doing the timing yells go. You most likely won't be shooting at someone in self-defense from your magazine storage table so the magazine must be on your person. I carry my spare mag in my front left pocket 90% of the time. You can stick it in the top of your belt and get to it pretty easily for just the reload stage.

[pbhome71]

I can shoot at different distances, but no holster allows, no rapid fire allowed (3 seconds apart rule), and no double-tap allowd at any of the ranges that I know of.

Will this be OK, for open-class 10', 20', 30', and 60', if I'll be doing: low ready-shoot-low ready-shoot, instead of double taps?

-Pat

[El Rojo]

pbhome71, the Open Class: 10', 20', 30', and 60' was made exactly for your situation. Just follow all range rules and have fun. If you have three handguns, shoot all three. Good luck.

[photo_guy]

Another little detail:

Reload = ?

Reload with retention? i.e. tactical reload

or emergency reload, mag can fall to the ground?

[El Rojo]

You can do either. The rules will reflect that you can do an emergency reload and if you want to you can do a tactical. I always practice emergency. My theory is if I have to reload my CCW rig, I am not going to be worried about reloading that mag later on in the fight. I will be evacuating the scene if I have already shot 9 rounds and have not solved the situation.

[Ankeny]

I think it is a given that using a stop watch will induce huge amounts of error on the basis of reaction time, inability to record the last shot and so on, but I think it's really cool that you have designed this to allow guys without a timer to participate. The only problem I see is the par times are very liberal and there is no reward for being really fast, but who cares...let's shoot.

[jamz]

Phweeew. So I went to my range and practiced the emergency reload with 50 rounds of .45ACP - 4 at a time.

I never knew I had so many thumbs! :p

(I ended up sticking the spare mag in my belt). I have to do this at my Dad's range, coz they allow drawing from holster, and shooting at distances closer than 30 feet.


-James

[Edward429451]

I can't open the target. It says there was a problem opening this document. Then it says this is a file not understood by the viewer, suppress further errors?

Any help?

[El Rojo]

The only problem I see is the par times are very liberal and there is no reward for being really fast, but who cares...let's shoot.
I take it you are either really good or you haven't tried this yet. It is one thing to be fast like IPSC and spray and pray, it is another thing to be fast and hit what you are aiming at. You might find that is better to give up a little bit on time in order to get hits. Misses hurt a lot more than giving up half a second.

I also recommend you do dry fire drills at home before you go out. This will improve your reload and your sight alignment. PLEASE MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED!

I don't know what to tell you edward. Here is the target in MS Word format. (http://home.bak.rr.com/elrojo14/pictures/circle.doc) Hopefully that will help.

[Ankeny]

El Rojo:

I have to confess I am one of those IPSC gamer types. I just yank the old pistol out and blindly blast at anything that remotely resembles a piece of cardboard. I'll probably have more time in penalties due to misses than I'll have in raw time.

[El Rojo]

Yeah I knew I had probably said that wrong. My apologies.

[Ankeny]

El Rojo:

I posted that while I was laughing and it's all good natured fun but I can see where it could be taken as saracasm. When I said the times are liberal I really mean it could be done. I did the math in my head based on par times for a Master class IPSC shooter on the draw and reload out of IPSC Production Division gear. I definately exercised very poor word choice.

Back to the rules. I am under the impression that the 1 point penalty is not applied until the shooter is .25 over. In other words, a fixed time requirement of 1.5 seconds for two shots wouldn't receive a penalty until the time read between 1.75 and 1.99. Am I interpreting this correctly?

[El Rojo]

I too used poor word choice. Look what we have in common! :D

I will re-read the text and make clarifications if need be, but no. If par time is 1.50, your 1.51 is a 1 point deduction. I will go clear that up. Thanks for asking for clarification.

[Ankeny]

Ouch, things just got a whole lot tougher. Tough is good. Makes folks work a little harder. On a fixed time IPSC classifier stage the shooter is typically given .30 seconds to react to the buzzer. So, a time of 5.29 would not be over time on a 5 second limit. Glad you cleared that up before I went out to shoot or I would have screwed the whole thing up.

[LuckyNed]

Hello fellow shooters! I spent a week surfing the net looking for ANY kind of postal type shooting event that I might participate in. I found this one while researching the recent political events..go fiqure!

I look forward to posting some seriously poor scores but done with a smile.:D

Any chance I get to use my 'black list' rifle in a future months match?

[Ankeny]

Brian Enos has a postal match thread going on his web site, but you would need USPSA targets and a timer to participate. It's worth a look:

Another on-line match. (http://brianenos.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11521&st=0)

[El Rojo]

Any chance I get to use my 'black list' rifle in a future months match?I would say it is guaranteed! Welcome LuckyNed. Please stick around and you will get a chance to shoot just about all of your firearms in these matches. I have been amazed at what we keep coming up with. And don't worry about your scores too much. You can get too much worse than the big fat zero's many of us collected in the January match (me included).

[Robert J McElwain]

MarkII.org has pistol matches as well at:

http://www.markii.org/forum/index

It's for .22 caliber pistols, but it's fun and easy to participate. All standard NRA targets.

One more excuse to get out to the range. Of course, High Road has the best matches.:D

Bob

[LuckyNed]

I've never done any pistol shooting while on the clock. 1.50 seconds to draw and fire 2 into the target? Is that possible? I doubt I can even get my pistol out of my holster in 1.50. My goal for this match will be to participate without shooting myself in the foot! :p

[Edward429451]

I finally got the target open. I had to wipe my computer a week or so ago and didn't realize I needed to get a newer version of Acrobat again.:o

I'm going to use my 1911 & G21 for two entry's and just for fun, my Redhawk for the third starting with 4 empties and two live rnds in it. A speedloader will provide the reload for the 30 ft stage, no handicap requested.;) Let the chips fall where they may.

Question on start position;

Surrender position, arms at sides, hand on gun?

[Ankeny]

LuckyNed:

I started shooting IPSC three years ago after a long time shooting Action Pistol and PPC. When I first started IPSC, I thought the times guys were claiming were nothing but bull and hot air. Man did I have a lot to learn. Here I am 3 years later and my par time draw to an 8 inch plate at 10 yards out of a Kydex holster with my Les Baer is 1.25 seconds. A split at 10 yards runs around .22 for a total of 1.45 seconds. Believe it or not, that's slow considering my classification. But remember, the single most practiced skill in IPSC is the draw followed by the reload because we can do them by the tens of thousands in dry fire. Drawing from an IWB holster or from concealment is another matter.

[El Rojo]

Surrender position, arms at sides, hand on gun?I would arms at sides would be good.

It is very possible to draw and shoot two in 1.5 seconds. Take some practice. Go slow at first. Your best bet is to dry the practice dry in your house while watching TV. DOUBLE CHECK THAT THE GUN IS NOT LOADED! With some practice you will get it.

I did this very drill last week and going from concealment, Mexican carry with my Glock 27, I was under 2.0 seconds at the 10 foot mark and under 2.5 at the 20' mark. I even did a reload in about 6.5 seconds with my magazine in my front left pocket rattling around with my cell phone. I know if I put my Glock in my holster and go without having to lift my shirt out of the way, I will be even faster. It just takes practice.

[El Rojo]

Some clarifications.

On the printed target, I listed the 4th stage as 40'. In the instructions it says 60'. I want you to shoot the last stage at 60'. So remember, when you print up your targets, change that to 60'.

Malfunctions. Should you have a malfunction before you get a shot off, reset the clock and try again. If you do get off your first shot, but have a malfunction on the second shot, then stop the clock and get ready to shoot again. This time shoot your first shot off of the target, roughly simulating the time it took to get the first shot off, then shoot your last shot onto the target. Since you might have already put a few holes in the target, it is hard to tell which one it was or if you hit at all, so the easiest way is to miss your first shot on purpose and then put your second shot on and record the time like normal.

[El Rojo]

Are some of you planning on shooting this month? It has been sort of slow around here. I am assuming that some people are just procrastinators or do people not like this match? I thought I gave enough options that everyone can still participate. Tell me what you think.

[photo_guy]

I am hoping to do at least open class.
I did use this match as an excuse to finally buy a shot timer(arrived today:) ) but it is unlikely I will be able to use it effectively for the match. The primary range I use is indoors and does not allow drawing from a holster. Also, I can't imagine the shot timer will get accurate times if it detects the sound of rounds fired by others on the range. It would be very frustrating.

[jamz]

El Rojo: I LOVE this match. However...

I have to find the time to make it to my Dad's range, because my range won't allow targets closer than 30 feet, and won't allow drawing from concealment. So I am sort of stuck. Because this is still winter in New England (March is usually worse than December) I'd like to wait till the end of the month for it to warm up a bit.

Another thought, people would have to line up a friend to go with them in order to do the timing. This could knock a couple of people out due to scheduling problems. That being said, I still think it's a cool match.

-James

[El Rojo]

Thanks Jamz. I made some test loads for my .308 today and headed out to my secret location to test them. In between barrel cool offs, I did the match again, but forgot my timer. These scores are unofficial and will not count for anything. I just wanted to prove I could do a lot better with my Glock 27 than I did officially. I did my drawing and shooting as fast as I could with the intent of getting hits. I did pretty good.

Open class 10', 20', 30' reload, 60'
Concealed
96 points.

Open class 10', 20', 30' reload, 60'
Non-Concealed
86 points.

So if you don't have a timer, just go out and slow fire it if you can. Those of you without a timer and can't draw can get a easy 100 this month. I am stuck with a 69 for my official score.

[Ankeny]

EL Rojo:

I can see dumping the draw and timer for guys who face range restrictions, but I think folks should be encouraged to shoot quickly if the range will allow rapid fire. Maybe start at the low ready and let it rip?

Frankly, I thought the hot rock point shooters from the self defense threads would wander this way and school us hard, lol.

[El Rojo]

I specified I wanted them to do it as fast as they can in the rules. I wish I would have waited to shoot my Glock today rather than rush it in last week. Oh well.

[jamz]

We can fire from low ready, and can do rapid fire, as long as you get them all onto paper. If I can
t make it to my Dad's range, I'll do that at the end of the month.

-James

[BamBam-31]

Sorry, El Rojo, but Beetle Bailey and I prolly can't do this match. Our local range is minimum 50 ft., no rapid fire/ double taps, no holster draw. We could go to Burro Canyon, but it's a bit of a drive, and safety rules there are a bit too lax for me.

I think next match should follow in photo_guy's footsteps: simple, fun, but with a twist. By simple, I don't necessarily mean easy, just not as many range-rules-bending hoops to jump through. I think there would be more participation that way.

[Ankeny]

I never knew so many ranges had so many restrictions. I guess I am lucky. How do the guys on the forum who have carry permits get in any real practice? Bummer.

[Quantrill]

I posted my scores on the other (I hope correct) thread (83 and 86). I used a Colt Commander in a matte stainless steel that I picked up a few years ago. I put in stiffer springs (I really forget what but one can feel the difference between it and the soft springed Gold Cup), shock buffers, oversized mag release, safety and slide lock, and a group gripper. It has the matte "silver" sights which made it hard to rapidly acquire the white target used. I have shot mostly bullseye competition in the past with enough PPC and IPSC to make it interesting.
I surprised myself by coming in under the time limit in both concealed and unconcealed for the 10' and 20' stages. I would have thought I would not come in under the time limit for any of the stages. The 30' reloading stage and the 60' were both over the limit, but the raw scores were 99 in each case. The bottom line here is my reloading is slow and I concentrate on hitting what I shoot at to the detriment of speediness. I really don't know if that is bad or good but as an old man, I am comfortable with it. Next time, I will try an old S&W59 that rarely gets taken out of the safe. Quantrill

[Ankeny]

Quantrill:

Good going. If you could find an electronic timer to use you might get a better picture. Doing this match with a stop watch is pretty tough.

[Quantrill]

I was lucky that my wife was available this weekend, so I had a stop watch operator and my 2 grandsons (6 and 8) to pick up brass (another reason to use a revolver eh?). Of course I had to spend Sat. with them and the BB gun and the .22 rifle. They drive a hard bargain just to pick up brass.

[El Rojo]

Those are pretty good scores in my book. The reload stage is something best practiced at home with an empty gun and magazines. The more dry fire drills you do, the better your reload becomes. Good shooting.

[Quantrill]

Thanks again to El Rojo, ROTR and those to come who come up with these postals. You all do a great job. Quantrill

[Langenator]

My only suggestion with the IRS match is to have pistol and rifle divisions. Pistols at whatever the agreed-on distance (25m seems popular), rifles at 50 or 100m. Oh, no scopes on the rifles. Iron sights only.

[Edward429451]

I wanted to shoot this match but between snow in the mtns early in the month and work later in the month...:(

Maybe I'll do it retroactively for my yearly totals. I think Grzegorf and Daniel were both slightly intimidated of the match and didn't show any interest this month. I think it was the (have to post your) time pressure against you guys. (You guys are on the net, so must be a bunch of masters, right?):D

Go against the clock?:uhoh:

[El Rojo]

Why be intimidated? You don't shoot against the clock to be afraid, you shoot against the clock to get better. No matter how good you think you are, some guy like Ankeny comes along and makes this look easy and you realize you need more practice. The good news is, the more you practice, the better. Especially if the thug you run into some day holds his gun sideways and never practices. Besides, I have my friends to come on here and do horribly! They don't care and your scores ought to be higher!

Sure post some retroactive scores. When only 7 guys shoot, I am going to be hard pressed to say no.

[jamz]

I'd like to do the same. I was hard pressed to get weather, friends, and weapons all in good condition at the same time and place in March.


While that might be part of the Competition, i.e. you have a time limit, that can be more of a test of organizational skills rather than shooting skills. ;)


I liked the idea for the March Match, but probably won't have the means until the summer.

-James