Further load development ?


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bob4
October 23, 2012, 06:55 PM
First a bit on my reloading skills. I'm very knew to this. About 3 weeks or so is all. There ya have it. :)
I'm pretty sure I found what load my 270 win likes. Hit on it today by accident ( sort of) as I fouled a barrel to try the incremental load development. My other tests were showing me that 51-52.5 gns of Re-19 were getting close. But the ladder test looked like fun.
So having 5 weeks till I go hunt I thought Id play a bit. It's all about having fun.
So I loaded 5 rounds of 52 grains just to foul the barrel a bit. You can see the results. But went on with the test just the same. That target is a mess I'm happy to say. Was a "shoot and see" type, and all the lower end rounds ( 51.5 -52.5) ate the middle out. :) http://bob-4.com/storage/pics/52gr.jpg
Shot 1 was low so I adjusted the scope. Shot 2 was a bit of overkill with the scope adjustment and readjusted. Of course I'm going to go out and see if I can do that again.
But my big question is were do I go from here if I wanna toy with the load a bit? I know what powder and amount, what grain, what primer, what length the case was and the overall length.
I only have the basics for tools at this point.
Tumbler
calipers
single stage press
3 dies
digital scale
bul. puller
Thanks in advance for any input ,criticism and/or advice.

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readyeddy
October 23, 2012, 08:47 PM
You can experiment with different bullets, powders, charge weights, brass and primer. Any one can change your performance, as well as the various combinations you can put together. It's almost endless.

Or you could verify your new found load with four groups, five shots per group. And if you're happy with the average, then call it a day.

Craigman
October 23, 2012, 08:51 PM
if you can see where you hit on the paper, with different loads, dont touch the scope at all. Once you find "the" load. then walk it to where you want it to hit. Some guns will shoot all over the palce with different charges and when you chase them you are only wasting ammo IMO. Go for groups. Not bullseyes.

tahoe2
October 23, 2012, 10:06 PM
craigman is right, I use an oversized target board (36"x36") with the target in the middle and shoot groups, with different loads, then I pick the one I like best, and re-zero the rifle

bob4
October 24, 2012, 05:43 PM
Thanks all for the input. Very much appreciated.
The only reason I touched the scope this time around was for the Incremental load development. Thought it would be nice to have a good starting point on the paper and not walk off it. They just happened to end up near the center. First I moved the scope since I started. Seeings I wasn't doing groups of 3 or 5 rather just 1 shot per load, starting somewhere close to the middle seemed like a good idea.
I did learn from this . Seems after about 53.5 gns shot would start going high and right or left. Higher I would expect with a larger load. But erratically left or right didn't look so good to my new eyes. Best groupings were in the lower end of charge weight.
I guess I'll try it at the 200 yd range next and see how that goes.

41 Mag
October 26, 2012, 05:57 AM
Your on the right track, like others have mentioned there are plenty of things you can do to tinker with the load. Here is a board I shot while working up a load for my grandson's .243,
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/P1010040-1.jpg

I simply set the scope up to center the target using factory loads, and went from there. The backer board is one of those project boards whith the paper sides and foam center. I got a bunch of them from work when our Engineering Dept cleaned out a bunch of old displays.

Anyway from where you are now with a decent shooting load I might work a few tenths up or down from there to see if the groups tighten up. I would also shoot 5-10 shot groups as well while doing so to verify what I find when I hit something that grouped better. The other thing I might do is play with the seating depth moving in and out in .005" increments to see if it helped tighten up things.

Just remember to do one thing at a time or you will be chasing your tail trying to figure out what changed what.

Centurian22
October 26, 2012, 08:49 AM
Ok I'm new and wanting to get into reloading as well. Can someone please help me understand what shooting only 1 cartridge of each charge weight can tell you during load development? I would think you would want to group at least 3 to a charge weight to determine how it performs.

bob4
October 27, 2012, 01:31 PM
Ok I'm new and wanting to get into reloading as well. Can someone please help me understand what shooting only 1 cartridge of each charge weight can tell you during load development? I would think you would want to group at least 3 to a charge weight to determine how it performs.
Read from the link below. I thought it looked interesting. The general idea I got from it was that when you get close to a load your gun likes you'll see an improvement in the group/ladder. As with mine my 270 showed me it likes a load between 51.5 and 52.5

http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf

Centurian22
October 30, 2012, 01:18 AM
Thank you SO much for posting that article. Took me a while to get through it all but well worth it. I really like how it's all explained and it makes perfect sense. I might just have to try this if I can get a good solid rest to shoot from.

Thanks again!

ArchAngelCD
October 30, 2012, 11:58 AM
Bob4,
Tinker with that load? I would think not! If you can duplicate shots 3-4-5 say 4 or 5 times more I would thing you found an excellent hunting load. Sometimes you have to know when good is good and that load looks very good...

Just an example, I bought a used Howa 1500 in .223 and started to load for it. I gave H335 and Varget a try under a 55gr Sierra GameKing bullet. (Part #1390) When I went to the range the Varget load shot a .4" group @100 yards. I repeated that group size 4X and then gave it a try at @200 yards. Those groups were just over 1", I call that a very good hunting load and I didn't go further. I figure with a .4" group if I can squeeze out .1" more, the game won't be able to tell the difference and why burn up a box of bullets trying when I could use those bullets on game.

bob4
October 31, 2012, 07:45 AM
Your welcome Centurian22.

Bob4,
Tinker with that load? I would think not! If you can duplicate shots 3-4-5 say 4 or 5 times more I would thing you found an excellent hunting load. Sometimes you have to know when good is good and that load looks very good... Ya know ArchAngelCD, your probably right. Went to the range again on a very windy day and at 200 groups were almost 4 inches low. That shouldn't be.
So I know my loads are on the lower end for this powder (re-19) and grain. (130). Just hoping it was the wind. It was 15-20 steady with a few gusts. Also the range is 0nly 60 or so feet wide and dirt berms piles high on 3 sides. I'm hoping that was some sort of Vortex down range.
I like to use the North American Target book (http://www.amazon.com/Target-Book-North-American-Game/dp/B000H7SEJK) to sight in by. Simply put. Your sighting in according to ballistics. So this way from 25 yds to 300 you know the trajectory of the round and just have to point at the boiler room for a good shot and not think about range as long as it's within that range. Figured for a 6 inch margin. My load ( win 270 130 grain) should be 2.25 high @200. Not of center by any means. Not that I hold this to exact measures but know I should be in the ball park. So the jury is still out.
Hoping it was the wind ?

ArchAngelCD
October 31, 2012, 11:57 PM
Wind can do a lot of crazy things and it's not out of the question a left/right wind at the bench could easily be very different 200 yards downrange.

I would re-shoot those 200 yard groups on a clam day before you change anything... (as I'm sure you already decided)

bob4
November 1, 2012, 09:50 PM
Went back to a different range yesterday. Only @ 100yds but 3 out of3 groups were fine. 3 out of 5 shots per group were 1 inch or less. Always seem to have 2 fly away but I don't mind putting the blame on me. Post back when I get a chance @ 200 again.
I appreciate all the input.http://www.banzaisquadron.com/forum/images/smilies/Big-Thumbs-Up.gif

witchhunter
November 1, 2012, 11:11 PM
I load 9 rounds of each variation; e.g. powder testing
9 at 51.0
9 at 51.5
9 at 52.0
Then I shoot 3 groups of 3 shots of each load and measure edge to edge and average.
Usually, you can see groups getting bigger or smaller as the velocity increases. If they are getting smaller, keep going faster until (A) you are going fast enough, (B) the groups start opening up again or (C) you start showing signs of excessive pressure. You can use this to test powders bullets primers seating depth etc. when you get it shooting as good as you can get it. Buy a new gun and start over, it will never end.

Bob72
November 4, 2012, 02:43 PM
I had several loads that worked pretty well and I refined them to excellent by adjusting the COAL. I adjusted in increments of .015, starting with the bullet in the rifling and working out to the minimum OAL. MY latest load in .308 went from 1.5" at 200 yards to 3/4" at 200 by adjusting the COAL. When I adjust the powder, I do it in .2 of a grain at a time until it looks great, then lastly .1 gr up and down to see if there is a difference. Like one poster said, "It's all about fun.":)

Bob72
November 4, 2012, 02:47 PM
I read somewhere that a left to right wind will push the bullet down and right and a right to left wind will push it up.:) 4 to six inches seems a bit much though. A calm day is best for initial load data accuracy.

Andrew Leigh
November 5, 2012, 03:49 AM
Hi Bob,

for the ladder technique to be best utilised then one should be shooting at targets at 300m and over. It is here that one is best able to see the effect. Also as pointed out by another poster load development is about groups and the scope should preferably not be adjusted inbetween. Setting your zero point is another operation.

If you still want to play around and get another perspective then try Dan Newberry's OCW method. For me it is more comprehensive and more telling. If I read your original post correctly then shots 3,4 and 5 were each 0.5gr. apart? If so this is excellent and tweaking more could get better.

Try loading 3 each of 51.0, 51.5, 52.0, 52.5 and finally 53.0gr (assuming this does not exceed the max permissible load). Set up 5 bulls to fit in your target holder and firing 3 fouling shots loaded for the purpose off target. Fire shot one 51.0gr. into bull 1 then shot two of 51.5gr. into bull two etc. and repeat the exercise until you have 3 shots per target with the same powder charge into the same bull. Allow sufficient time for the barrel to cool between shots.

If you were doing your part what you should observe is (assuming that you are correct with the sweetspot) then the high and low powder charges will have more open groups and the ones in the centre will have the tighter groups. The group that is the tighest with a clover leaf type pattern, cutting or not cutting, will be your sweet spot.

Do you note the speed of your loads?

All in all you appear to have hit the lucky sweetspot. I would varify it however through the method above.

PS: If the wind is howling cancel the range day, I have messed up too many load development routines thinking I could get consistent results in the wind. In fact nowadays I go to a 100m indoor range to do load development.

Good luck

bob4
November 5, 2012, 07:12 AM
Thanks all.
I do not have a chrono at this point so no on the speed of the loads. I do think about the spped as I think I'm on the low end of my allowable load. It would be nice to know where Im at so I know I still have punch at 200.
Also unfortunately to get to 300M ranges is 2+ hrs away so that doesn't happen. But I'm comfortable with a 100 yd 15 min away and a 200 yd range 1 hr away. I'm thinking for hunting 300 yds would be an extreme shot for me. So my goal in the next 4 weeks was to group a 2 inch pattern at 200 yds. Thanks to alot of help from hereI feel as if im on the right path for that. . Hopefully. :D
Hope to get out today for a bit. What I have loaded yesterday is 6 rds each for shooting 2 groups each of 51.9 and 52.1. That's right around the 52gr point to see what happens. If that works out I'll get back out to 200yds this weekend.

ArchAngelCD
November 5, 2012, 11:09 AM
Thanks all.
I do not have a chrono at this point so no on the speed of the loads. I do think about the spped as I think I'm on the low end of my allowable load. It would be nice to know where Im at so I know I still have punch at 200.
Also unfortunately to get to 300M ranges is 2+ hrs away so that doesn't happen. But I'm comfortable with a 100 yd 15 min away and a 200 yd range 1 hr away. I'm thinking for hunting 300 yds would be an extreme shot for me. So my goal in the next 4 weeks was to group a 2 inch pattern at 200 yds. Thanks to alot of help from hereI feel as if im on the right path for that. . Hopefully. :D
Hope to get out today for a bit. What I have loaded yesterday is 6 rds each for shooting 2 groups each of 51.9 and 52.1. That's right around the 52gr point to see what happens. If that works out I'll get back out to 200yds this weekend.
Just don't go too low with those charge weights. According to Alliant the Max charge of RL-19 with a 130gr bullet is 57.0gr. That would set the min charge weight @ 51.3gr RL-19. (using the -10% rule suggested by Alliant)

BTW, are you weighing all your charge weights?

Andrew Leigh
November 6, 2012, 02:11 AM
As a reloader I find it near impossible to develop a load without a chrony. I am not familiar with your powders and was not aware that you were scratching around the bottom end of the powder charge which can be dangerous.

What the chrony allows one to do is to stablish the pressures in your chamber (which will probably be cut differently from other chambers). By comparing the speed of your loads relative to reloading manuals etc. one is able to establish the approximate pressure in the chamber. This is safe practice.

By good fortune you seem to have found an accuracy node at the lower end of the load table. You may find a similar or perhaps even better accuracy node at the upper end of the load table. This would give you less bullet drop and more hitting power if so desired. Herein lays the joy of reloading and tweaking, but tweaking pre-supposes that one has the measurement tools to prove pressures do not exceed set limits.

Not to contradict ArchAngelCD the Sierra Program gives three loads with RE-19 and a 130gr SBT.

49.5gr (2700fps and 2104ft/lbs and a 4.0" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero)
51.5gr (2800fps and 2263ft/lbs and a 3.6" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero)
53.5gr (2900fps and 2427ft/lbs and a 3.2" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero)

I know guys who chase their .270's harder than this but with carefully developed loads.

Choice of case can also make a difference. A locally produced case requires on average 1.0gr. less powder than the thinner walled Remington I currently use on my 30-06.

Enjoy, it is great fun fiddling, shooting, seeing the results, fiddling etc.:D

bob4
November 6, 2012, 06:12 AM
Thanks again,
Yes I am weighing my charges digitally down to the 10th of a gn. I can also see a chronograph in my near future. I like toys:D

49.5gr (2700fps and 2104ft/lbs and a 4.0" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero)
51.5gr (2800fps and 2263ft/lbs and a 3.6" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero)
53.5gr (2900fps and 2427ft/lbs and a 3.2" drop @ 200m with a 100yd zero) That's cool information. What is the Sierra program exactly? I want it. Their book?
I'm using Sierra GK B/Tails 130gn #1820.

Andrew Leigh
November 6, 2012, 06:48 AM
Here it is.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=0602

I do think that you may also want to look at Quick Load. From what I hear this is better suited to tailoring your loads with very little load development. I will be getting it probably for Xmas. From dad to dad.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

gamestalker
November 7, 2012, 03:15 PM
For the .270 win I like RL-19, IMR-4350 and RL-22 in that order. I load the Speer 130 gr. PSPBT Hot Core. 3150 fps and 1/2" MOA at 100 yds. is easy to acomplish with any of the above components and a decent hunting rifle, Rem 700 and Savage 110 will do it for sure.

I find the work up process to be the most fun, and is also what inspired me to reload these last 30 some years.

GS

bob4
November 8, 2012, 06:46 AM
Thanks Gamestaliker, My initial loads were r-19, r-22 and H-4831. Out of those r-22 performed the worst. Narrowed it further to r-19. Not that I'm ruling out the 4831 but for now gonna get a load to go hunting in 3 weeks with r-19.
I agree that working up the load has been fun. I feel as if I've learned a quite bit after 3 weeks of this.

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