[.Scarecrow.]

I would like to open a gun store in my area, West Michigan of course. I am going to do this with a friend of mine who is a very competent gunsmith for his age. We are both 18 and are passionate about firearms. I am going to school for a business degree and he is going to apprentice a gunsmith for a gun smithing license, or some sort of certification. Believe it or not we have a storefront ready when we want to start. His parents own a video store that is closing down soon and they have generously offered to let us have the store when they close down. It has a 3 bedroom apartment above and metal bars that can go on the windows of the store floor. We are both aware of the Red Tape involved with running the business, and he is experienced with lots of bookkeeping being he helped run the video store. My big question is the thing we are most nervous about. Will all of these things look good to the ATF when it comes to applying for our FFL? We are very nervous about being denied. Any advice will be of great help.

[Robert]

I could be wrong, would not be the first time, but you have to be 21 to get your FFL as an individual. Again I may be wrong and there may be other options.

[.Scarecrow.]

Yes I am aware.

[Bubbles]

With two unrelated people going into the biz together, form an LLC or corp with each person controlling 50%. The FFL will be in the business name. Your own ages shouldn't be a problem, you just won't be able to transfer any handguns to yourself personally from your FFL.

Your biggest hurdle will be in securing lines of credit for the business and in setting up a merchant account so you can take credit cards. Vendors and/or distributors will want a personal guarantee and spotless credit history for a start-up biz.

[Nickel Plated]

I know you mentioned getting a business degree, which is a great start, but I just wanted to point out that if you are opening a gun store, it is still a store. It seems like alot of people think "I like guns, I know alot about guns, I should open a gun shop" The reality is, running a gun business has more to do with business than with guns. And they know next to nothing about running a business.

Those are the places that turn into your typical "good-ol'-boys-club gun shop" They can talk guns with you for hours while making no sales. Their business model sucks, they never have any inventory, their location is in the middle of nowhere, and their customer service is horrible when it comes to someone who isn't one of their shooting buddies.

Just sayin, don't be one of those gun shops.

Good luck

[Telekinesis]

I would hold off on opening the store, at least for the time being. You will learn a LOT in business school (especially the last two years when you're fully in your major) and I am sure that your friend will learn a lot while he's working as an apprentice. Secondly, working full time and being a full time student absolutely sucks, and by owning your own business, you are going to be working more than if you were just an employee.

I'll also second the advice to incorporate or form a LLC. It is probably some of the best protection you can have for yourself when forming a business as it insulates you personally of most financial liability (ie if the company goes through bankruptcy, creditors can't come after your home and personal assets). Also, if you do decide to start the business while you're under 21, you will need to use one of those business models to get a FFL. And don't worry about being denied. If you go through all the hoops that are required for the business licenses and FFL you should get it as a matter of course. Out of 20,000 FFL applications last year, the ATF only denied 22.

On another note, if you're planning on running a full gunsmithing shop in addition to the retail side of business, you may want to look into a FFL 07/02 SOT. Nothing like making your own machine guns! :evil:

[22-rimfire]

I would form an LLC or Partnership with the assistance of an attorney. It is good to discuss things like... if I want to sell you my portion of the business, how do we go about valuing it? If one is ill? What if a partner dies? Define responsibilities so you aren't bickering over little things. What do we do if his parents decide to rent the building to another? How are you going to buy inventory? Will each be paid a salary? How are the profits divied up? How are losses handled? Who has final say on a decision? How do you dissolve the business? Good stuff like this....

[mljdeckard]

I won't tell you no. But like they have said above, there is a LOT to running a business. I would find a few places to work in as an apprentice to learn the quirks of the trade.

About 18 years ago, me and a friend of mine who goes all the way back to Kindergarten conspired to get certified as smiths and start our own shop. He did it, and got some work from the local pawn shops, and he found that he wasn't a good enough smith to make a profit after replacing all the parts he broke. He also found that working on other peoples' guns isn't nearly as much fun as working on your own. When he would come home from his day job, he never felt like tearing into a project before dinner. Now he's a chopper pilot instructor and loves it.

In my own situation, I am stalled in starting my own side business, because where I live I can't get a home business license, which is required for the FFL. I don't necessarily want to make a big profit, so much as to be able to deduct some of my shooting expenses.

[oneounceload]

You two need a business PLAN - that comes from spending time (and money) with a lawyer well versed in LLC and similar and a CPA BEFORE you invest a dime. Having started a small business from scratch, the up front expenses for licenses and permits in your case insurances and security, as well as inventory, equipment for gunsmithing, just the displays and assorted retail stuff necessary for a store front, advertising, operating costs, etc. can be quite high. Check out what a simple ad in the yellow pages costs, or even BOLDING your name, plus phone line, credit card machine, electric utilities, etc. - the rates for a business versus your home are phenomenal

In short, this is a HUGE undertaking and requires a LOT more planning and preparation than most folks realize

I wish you well, but you REALLY need to do your due diligence beforehand with the experts in legal and financial affairs

[moewadle]

A lot of what you sell may be new products, including guns, of course. But do you have the capital to stock up and have something in the showcases.

[rule303]

You need to look at it from a business standpoint, leave your personal interest in firearms out of it. You will basically be doing retail sales and bookkeeping. New guns are a very low margin item, will you be able to sell enough accessories and service work to make a profit? Make a business plan, figure out how much money you will need to lay out each month just to keep the doors open, how much you will need to purchase up front for inventory and shop setup, etc.
The NSSF offers a service for FFL's which will do an analysis of your potential customer base, and compare with other shops in the area.
It can be done, but you need to figure out what you can offer that other shops don't. You will be competing with online sellers and big box stores selling the same guns for near your wholesale price, or in some cases less. And like it or not, some customers will not take you seriously because of your age. I have this problem on occasion, and got my FFL when I was 30.

[coolluke01]

Margins on guns is almost nil. Ammo is nearly as bad. A good retail store will profit about 5%. Most will be 2-3%. Most companies don't show a profit for about 5 years. Plan on having 2nd jobs or saving a bunch of money first. Retail is a horrible business to make money in. Most other businesses will shoot for a 15-20% profit.

If you can't pay yourself a good wage, health insurance and make 15% over the top, don't start your own business! The headache and risk isn't worth it. Work for someone else and get a good feel of the business. Then buy a established business.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but this is been my experience. I have worked with my family building our business as well as starting and building my own business on nights and weekends while working a full time job. It's tons of work, lots of risk and if you don't know business/industry and your competition inside out you will fail! 75% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years.

Good luck. Work in the field for a few years and then go for it.

[Captcurt]

Coolluke is right. The grand idea of owning your own GS is really a hard row to hoe. As stated, the profit is low on new guns and the competition from the big discount stores makes it almost impossible to price inventory where you can make a profit. I had the same idea and got my FFL. After two years I can honestly say that if I had much overhead (read rent, utilities, insurance) I would be closed today. Fortunately I work out of my home and sell mostly online.

Think it over.:uhoh:

[flyskater]

Just an advice. Avoide partnerships. Don't mix business and friendship together. Been there done that.
That's why an overwhelming business owners and business school professors oppose partnerships. Of course there is a chance it will go well, but the percentages don't look so good.

[Trent]

Margins in the gun business suck. Unless you have LOTS of seed money for inventory and volume it's real hard to get started. If you don't have fresh merchandise customers won't stop by more than once or twice.

And that inventory takes money. Even $100 grand of startup capitol doesn't go THAT far when you are talking firearms - in fact, it would make for a pretty paltry gun store!

You ever been in to one of those gun stores that seem to have "one of everything" with racks bristling with rifles as far as the eye can see? There's a few million bucks to get set up to that point. :)

[Kristensdaddy]

Please don't be insulted by my thoughts....

Get a job at McDonalds and work there for a year first. You will start out at the bottom but tell the boss, up front, that you want to know HOW the business works. How does he manage the whole operation? McD's is a microcosm of marketing, sales and service.

Ordering product so you don't run out. Keeping the facility maintained, keeping the customer happy, moving the customer through the transaction.

It doesn't matter if you are selling burgers or guns - if you don't have what they want, when they want it, sold in a way that is acceptable to the customer, you will be out of business in very short order.

[col.lemat]

Start by doing gun shows, Less overhead than with starting a store.

[oneounceload]

Hard to do gunsmithing at a gun show; they'll still need inventory, insurance, etc.

[MachIVshooter]

owning your own business, you are going to be working more than if you were just an employee.

Yup. When I wrenched for other people, I worked 45-50 hours per week. Running my own shop, it's near double that, and I barely make what I did as an employee. Of course, my business model is a little different, in that my mobile is my business line, and I pretty much take calls 7 days a week, 8a-10p. Still, with actual business hours being M-F9a-7p and appointment only on Saturdays, I frequently work in the shop until 10, 11 and later to get things handled, then clean up and do bookkeeping.

When you have a small business, you don't really own it. It owns you.

To run a successful gunshop, you'll really need to be open 6 days a week (Mon-Sat). Gun stores have the benefit of a market not expecting them open before 10 or 11 am, but they are also expected to be open until 7 or 8 pm, and if you're not, you'll miss a lot of the "stopping by on the way home" crowd.

You'll probably need close to a quarter million in inventory to be profitable as a two-man operation. As mentioned, new gun and ammo margins suck, but if you don't keep a healthy stock of both, you won't get people in the store to buy other stuff.

It will be frustrating. You'll get a lot of blow-hards who just want to come in to browse & BS, but never spend any money. You'll get a lot of people who do want to buy, but can't afford it. And you'll get costmers like me who have the money and the will to buy, but will never over-pay and have a large collection that limits their prospects to more specific things.

Today's economy is a tough one to start a business in, especially a retail business that has to compete with established brick & mortar stores and internet sellers. The only reason things haven't gone near 100% online is that people are naturally impatient, especially when it comes to firearms. But they will be patient if the cost difference is enough.

I know you've received mostly discouraging input thus far, and I'm sorry to contribute further to that end. It's just that you need to understand running a business is hard work, and running one that started as a hobby will take all the fun out of the hobby. You think I have the motivation to wrench on my own hot rods like I did when I was an employee? Even on the rare occassion that I have a little spare time, about the last thing I want to do is pull one of my cars in and work on it. It took me almost a year to get around to stuffing the new engine in my little Daytona Shelby Z.

[kdave21]

Here's an idea that I dont think has been brought up yet... Have you thought about getting a full or part time job at a gun shop?

Pros to doing this: Learn about sales / learn about gun models / learn about people / learn about peak buying times, people's buying patterns, etc / NO capital investment needed / NO risk.

I could go on and on. Let the gun store owner worry about overhead, liability, etc while you worry about learning how to sell guns. Cause ultimately, no matter how nice your building, no matter how fancy your signs, what it comes down to is making sales. If you dont make sales, you dont make money. Ive known geniuses who werent that good at teaching. Ive known salesman who knew a lot about their product, but didnt know a thing about sales.

Cons to doing this: You have to delay something that youre really really excited about. Thats it.

Something worth doing is worth doing well.

[22-rimfire]

Having your own business is a wonderful thing. It is hard work with long long hours and you will probably feel like you are making a couple bucks and hour. There was a hardware store with a big section for guns and related items near where I grew up and I always liked their business approach. It was my dream as a kid to have a business like that.

the rates for a business versus your home are phenomenal.

Advertising is very expensive. $1000 a month is not uncommon for a small business. You see those signs at interstate exits for hotels and restaurants done by the highway department.... the cost is huge.

Yes, it is all deductable as an expense, but you have to be making money to cover those expenses.

Bottom line... develop a business plan. That should provide you the basis to make a decision about going forward. Look at your startup costs and figure you probably won't make a dime for a couple years, so figure on living expenses on top of that. It takes a lot of money to get started and you want people wanting to visit your store. So it has to be a fairly nice place.

The rewards can be great if you are successful.

[JERRY]

the fastest way to make a million dollars with a gun shop is to start out with two million dollars. its a tough business unless you start out small or have little overhead.

[crazy-mp]

deleted

[WinThePennant]

To be honest, I've always wondered why gun stores don't have weekend or evening "build a gun" events.

Let's face it, wouldn't we all like to attend a "Build an AK Night" where we have a fully functional AK that we built from a parts kit? Same goes for "Build an AR Night"... "Build a 1911 Night"... "Build a Glock Night".. Etc., etc. No overhead, and you should be able to build a gun in just a couple hours. Heck, I think I could build an AR from the ground up in a couple hours. It's just assembling parts, really. I'm sure you could add a $200 embedded fee for the instruction, use of tools, etc. Not many novices can put together an AR in two - three hours. Heck, the savings from not having to buy all the tools would entice people to take the class.

If a LGS had something like that, I think I'd build dozens of guns. There are 1911 kits, AR kits, AK kits, Glock kits, and many others I'm sure.

[Swing]

I could be wrong, would not be the first time, but you have to be 21 to get your FFL as an individual.

You are correct, sir. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensing.html#licensing-qualifications)

[crazy-mp]

deleted

[WinThePennant]

They wouldn't be manufacturing the gun -- The individuals who buy the kits would be. The LGS would be providing an informational service on how to assemble the firearm.

[.Scarecrow.]

I have read every last one of these, some of the criticisms I have worked out already. But in the end, I STILL want to do this, I have considered everything, thought about the work. But I still wanna do this so badly. We ARE going to start out at gunshows also.

[mg.mikael]

I have considered everything

Here's your first mistake.....and why you're not ready to go into business. Nobody can consider/predict everything, ever hear of the saying hindsight is 20/20. Well it's always true, because no one has the foresight to predict every event or hardship you will face.

Have you talked to legal counsel? Have you checked local ordinances? Do you have enough money to stock the shelves? Have you worked up a contract with your partner/employee? Are you sure any local gun stores won't run you out of business? Do have prior business experience, dealt with the taxes and record-keeping?

I doubt you've considered everything, as you put it.

[Rail Driver]

I have read every last one of these, some of the criticisms I have worked out already. But in the end, I STILL want to do this, I have considered everything, thought about the work. But I still wanna do this so badly. We ARE going to start out at gunshows also.
I'll chime in with something.

It's been said twice before, you can't legally get your FFL until you're 21. That gives you both a few years to either work in the industry or to go to school (or both). Take advantage of that time. Put the business idea on the shelf until you meet the requirements to actually do business. Jumping the gun in the firearms industry with regard to legal requirements can land you in prison and cost you your firearms rights for life.

[.Scarecrow.]

Well I can't do anything else in life and I'm already getting my business degree. What else would I do? I don't want to sit behind a desk wearing uncomfortable clothing staring at a computer screen in a cubical. I play guitar well but trying to make millions of dollars in a band is a smaller chance then opening a gun store, not to mention the travel, oh how the travel would kill me. I am starting this firearm store. It is not impossible, and as long as it's not impossible then I am going for it.

[coolluke01]

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."
"Many have the will to succeed, but few have the will to prepare."

Remember you did come on here looking for advice. Make sure you are not having your mind made up before you get all the facts. Making an emotionally charged decision will end in failure.

You have advice from many good sources here. Take heed and learn from mistakes and successes of those around you.

You are young and this is the time to prepare and study, not always the best time to act. You have good enthusiasm and heart. Many here have told you how a business can crush your spirit and break your heart.

You have a few years before this is a possibility, take the advice of others and work in the industry and learn what you can. What are you afraid of? That we are right and you will see the writing on the wall and chose a different path? The worst thing that will happen, working for someone else, is that you will learn something! A cheap education is invaluable.

You say that you have taken everything into account.

Do you have $500,000.000 in cash to get you started and hold you over for a few years?

Can you offer any expertise to men who fought in wars when your father was still in diapers? Don't even think you can say Yes to this one. If you think they will take you serious for one instant you are delusional.

Are you paying for your own car insurance right now?

Have you ever worked 60,70,80 or 90 hours a week for months on end?

Can you make a business plan yo show to Bankers without them scoffing at you?

Do you know what all your fixed costs will be and how much you need to gross to make a profit?

Do you have deals made with venders?

I either have or can fairly easily do everything on this list. But there is no way I would ever start my own gun shop.


If you want a great way to be an entrepreneur and make some real money. Buy old houses and fix them up and rent them out. Do this right and you'll do just fine. Then you can support your "hobby" with a real job.

[Telekinesis]

It's been said twice before, you can't legally get your FFL until you're 21.

You can't get a FFL as an individual until you are 21. A corporation has no age requirement FFL wise and you can set one up at any age as long as you are legally able to sign a contract.

I am starting this firearm store. It is not impossible, and as long as it's not impossible then I am going for it.

OP: I think you need to decide if you're doing this as a business venture or if you're just doing this because you want to have a gun store. Either is a fine reason for getting a FFL, but don't kid yourself if you're not going to treat it like a business. A business is started by calculating ALL of the foreseeable costs of starting and running the business and comparing that to the expected revenue from the business. If the numbers come back high enough that it is a viable business venture, then and only then, does the owner say "yes, I am going to do this". If you have already made the decision to commit before knowing (or even thinking about) all the facts, you could be setting yourself up for disaster.

For example, are you or would part of your operation be regulated by ITAR? That is a big annual tax for a small business and is one of the few reasons I don't own a small ammo manufacturing company right now. That one tax would have killed our margin.

That said, I don't want to discourage you from starting a gun store. I just think you should know fully what you're getting into, and I think most people here would agree. Most are recommending you get more experience and knowledge before starting, rather than just saying "don't do it".

[.Scarecrow.]

I DO want to work for a local firearms store called Silver Bullet. They are the only Major supplier of tactical firearms in my area. Part of the reason I thought I could succeed is by giving them some competition when it comes to tactical firearms, but I would not solely provide those, I would also want to reach into the hunting market some. But when people want a tactical firearm, they go to Silver Bullet. People are always waiting outside the doors for them to open even on Weekdays. I have heard before that if you want to be successful, be different, provide what your area cannot readily access. Thoughts on this?

[.Scarecrow.]

I can also see that I rustled some jimmies around here when I accidentally said I've considered everything. I should have clarified that I considered everything that was said.

[coolluke01]

Finding your niche is one of the most important aspects of a successful business.

Doing what someone else does and expecting success is foolishness.

This Sliver Bullet store you talk about. People often mistake busy for successful. I know plenty of people who work tons of hours every week and are not making it as a business.

Setting you price is very important. They best way to be able to charge what you need to is to add value. It's hard with retail to add value, since people can get the exact thing somewhere else often cheaper too. You need to find what people need,not want. People will search for hours online looking for wants. Needs have to be met in a timely way. The key to being a good salesman is to make the customer feel like they can't live without it. It then becomes a need and you are able to fill that need. Adding service to purchases also is a good way to add value. Remember you are not selling guns or ammo, you are selling an experience and a service. They can click buttons at get guns and ammo.

[351 WINCHESTER]

My lgs has been in business for over 40 years. They started well before wallyworld. They cannot compete with their prices on guns or ammo. They do buy and sell used guns and have a loyal customer base. They have 2 real gunsmiths and offer offsite blueing too. Still I don't see how they manage to stay in business with all of the competition.

[.Scarecrow.]

Well I see where you are coming from Coolluke. You are indeed either an imitator or an innovator. And the reason I thought that was because I said to myself, "Well, there are a million hunting shops around here, this area probably doesn't need another one." Silver bullet does charge and arm and a leg for their guns, They are full blown retail unless you come in first with a competitive price. And I figured I could bring up my own shop and start competing price wise with the same types of products but I see that is probably not an option. In my business class we are reading a book called, "Purple Cow." And the basis of the book is that if you want to be successful, you have to be different, but most people are too afraid to be different, and that is why they are unsuccessful. But again I feel like it might be smart to provide what My area doesn't have a lot of, which is the modern firearms. And then we are back to mimicking Silver bullet, but being that they are the ONLY game in town, would it be smart to provide people with similar, but different offerings?

[oneounceload]

You think so, but without a track record, I doubt you will be paying the same wholesale prices as someone who already is established and moving product. When that happens, and your cost is almost what he is selling them for, what's Plan B?

Gun store wholesale prices are a lot like airline ticket prices - no two folks pay the same price. Many makers/jobbers will demand you buy an entire line of guns - even the dogs - if you want the popular ones, or that you need to buy 25K minimum order at a time to get the pricing you need to undercut your competition

You'll need to decide if you are going to fill a niche or go for the wally world model - pure volume - either one requires some serious cash up front for start up. Commercial licenses and permits, insurances, utilities are all higher for commercial businesses

[coolluke01]

Most retailers are in a race to the bottom. This a terrible business model. Only one can be the cheapest. So be different and the best.

How many more types of AR15's do we really need?

If you really want to get in to the gun business, do gunsmithing. Leave the gun sale struggle to others. People add lots of toys and features to their guns. The main problem though is that it takes weeks to months to get any work done on a gun. Charge a little bit more and have a 2-3 day turn around. That's a service you can sell.

The main thing to remember is to look at your field and find what others are not doing but people really want. I built both of our businesses on the basis that people are willing to pay for good service. I'm not the cheapest but I am the best!

[.Scarecrow.]

I'm grateful for that bit on wholesale prices. I have been told that doing gun show booths and used firearms is the best thing to do for just starting, then when I do have the funds and knowledge, start getting into new firearms. What can you tell me about the used firearms market, as well as gun shows?

[cheeze]

When I was 18, I did what I said I was going to do no matter who told me not to. Sometimes I showed them. Sometimes they showed me. I learned a lot, some of it the hard way.

I have my own business now and have since 1998. If I were to open a firearm related business today, here's what I would think about: Specialize. You can go to nearly any town and buy a gun, and you can open a gun shop in most towns and make almost a living. Maybe learn one specific platform from top to bottom and make it your obsession. Learn to make top-notch AKs or target 1911s or something that sets you apart from the others. Something that makes people come to you because you are known to be the authority. Maybe you're the glock guy, the semi-pistol guy, the class 3 on the shelf guy, the rare and classics guy, milsurp guy, etc... Give them a reason other than lower price to come to you. If you just play the price game, it will be a hard if not impossible living in the gun shop trade. This is exactly what it sounds like the silver bullet is doing... they are the assault rifle guys. Your town already has assault rifle guys, so it doesn't sound like the niche you would want to pursue.

Once you get your niche market, you can then add the other stuff found everywhere else and let folks order the normal stuff through you. Then that guy who brought his ak underfolder in to be tweaked and tacticooled, he might also buy that old remington 700 on the wall.

[crazy-mp]

deleted

[zorro45]

In my area there is one gunsmith for a 50 mile radius. He is very busy. He does a good job. He does not sell new guns. His customer service approach is "your gun will be ready when I call you, if you call me about it, you can come and pick it up and bring it somewhere else" Needless to say, he would be in trouble if he had some competition.
One of the problems w/ gunsmithing is that after a relatively short time investment, (if your time is of any value at all) the cost of doing the work exceeds the value of the gun. Not too many people can afford complex jobs, and it is unlikely that anyone is going to bring an extremely valuable piece in to a neophyte gunsmith.
One local gunshop who does no gunsmithing has grown from a "closet" to several thousand square feet, last I counted he had at least 8 employees working, over a 10 year period. Good service, fair prices, and good attitude from sales staff.
Good luck.

[BigBoreFan]

Another option is to consider bundling of services. If you are in Michigan then you have 6 months of crappy weather. If you're going to have a storefront consider an indoor range. Even if you want to focus on selling guns or gunsmithing services a gun range is a reason to come into a retail establishment. If you offer rentals, instruction, concealed carry classes, try before you buy, you'll have people in the door who will walk past what you're selling on the way in and the way out. That, and a subscription fee for regulars and an hourly fee for anyone else should generate income. I belong to a local club that has an indoor range and the only thing that keeps me from being there every day in the winter is the distance from my house and keeping my wife happy. You could also offer leagues, bullseye, rimfire matches, 4H shooting. Lots of opportunity if you build the space. Retail and smithing is very hard to earn a living. A little market research may be in order.

[JERRY]

id pay $1.00 more per box of ammo from a local gun shop over wal-mart if i could also get other deals at the lgs.....holsters other than the bullcrap nylon and kydex u.m. and black hawk rigs....but that means they have to have an inventory over head and a good customer base.....this greatly depends on your location.

if you live in a northern state which recently got ccw laws passed or are butted against non ccw states pushing for repeal of such laws nation wide you will have a lot of business in a lgs....look at NoVa for example.

if youre in a pro gun state surrounded by progun states and anti gun right laws die as they leave the mouth of the idiots spewing it....there isnt much threat to gun rights and its a tough sell to joe schmuckatelli....look at alabama or mississippi....

[Plan2Live]

Scarecrow - although well meaning folks have posted some valid points and tips here, much of it leans towards the negative. They told Orville and Wilbur that it would never fly too. If my informaton is correct, a friend of mine here in Columbia,SC reminds me that about four years ago he dropped by some guy's two car garage (attached to his house) to buy somethng or other they were selling out of their garage. That business was Palmetto State Armory. Look where they are today. Banana Republic was started with less than $2,000 and a dream. 50 years from now some gun store somewhere is going to proudly advertise "Serving ______ for 50 Years." There's no reason that can't be you. Be prudent, do your homework, think outside the box, but above all, hold onto your dream.

[coolluke01]

It is true that many have been told it won't work since no one has ever done it before. (Wright Brothers)
But this is not the case of flying the first plane or landing on the moon. This has been done many times. Some were successful and many were not.

It's easy to point to the success stories and tell you to hold on to your dreams. It's another thing to take real life experience and evaluate whether or not this is a good idea.

I like the some of the advise given above. I would make a small edit however.
Be prudent, do your homework, think outside the box, but above all, hold onto your dream.
Be prudent, do your homework, think outside the box, but above all, don't be too proud to let the dream die.

There is no intrinsic value in a dream. It won't put food on the table. You can't sell it. Don't place more value on a dream than what you can sell it for.

Life isn't a Disney Movie, follow your heart and your dream and you'll end up broke in a cardboard box. Use your head!! And by all means Go For It if it makes good non subjective sense.

One last thing. Specializing in something is great. But you need to have a general draw to get people into the store. Or the other option is to not have a store and save the brick and mortar cost.

"A generalist knows less and less about more and more until eventually he or she knows nothing about everything. A specialist knows more and more about less and less until eventually he or she knows everything about nothing."

While this is kinda funny to think about, it has some good truth in it. Unfortunately most LGS's fall into the first category.

[RhinoDefense]

You can't get a FFL as an individual until you are 21. A corporation has no age requirement FFL wise and you can set one up at any age as long as you are legally able to sign a contract.
Misleading. For purposes of an FFL, a corporation is a "person" and the persons listed on the FFL application as responsible persons must all me 21yo or they will be rejected. Whether you form a corporation or not, the responsible members must be 21yo.

To the OP: It seems to me you came here looking for advice, were given sound advice, and you're just going to ignore it and do what you want anyway, which is what you had in mind in the first place. In that case, go ahead and try to start your gun shop as an 18yo. See how that works out for you.

[Plan2Live]

It's easy to point to the success stories and tell you to hold on to your dreams. It's another thing to take real life experience and evaluate whether or not this is a good idea.
Good thing the folks over at Palmetto State Armory didnt' listen to the nay sayers, and no, they weren't doing something no one had done before (fly), they just believed they could do it a little better than the next guy.

Someone a whole lot smarter than me once said, "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right." Decide which answer lies within your heart before you start then stick to that belief and act accordingly.

[coolluke01]

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right."

This is a good quote. Your attitude does dictate what the end result will be.

Decide which answer lies within your heart before you start then stick to that belief and act accordingly

This is not so good of a quote. I don't care what "answer lies within your heart" if it's wrong you will fail. I know plenty of people that have heart, motivation, desire and belief in their product/idea, that fail. They typically are the type of failures that don't know it! They fail in business for 10,20,30 years before they realize that the dream has been dead for years! At this point they are piled high with debt and don't have the cash flow to maintain the debt commitments.

Don't be another one of these people that follow their dream blindly, thinking that if I just work hard and do what I love, I'll find the American Dream. The dream should always be the goal not the path. The path is just as important as the dream. I think they are equal. You can't have one without the other.

[RhinoDefense]

We aren't naysayers. For every Palmetto success, there's dozens of failures. We aren't saying don't do it, we are saying don't do it right now because he isn't prepared to go into business in any industry, let alone the firearms industry. The gun business is 90% business and 10% about the guns. We want to see him succeed, but starting out now at 18yo there are insurmountable roadblocks in his way that won't get moved until he's 21yo. We are advising him to work on educating himself in the ways of business and then start his gun shop when he's 21yo and can get the FFL in the first place. He'll be older, wiser, and have a better idea of what it takes to run a successful business.

[DPris]

What are you doing about the start-up funding?
Do you have enough to rent a business premises, stock it with several thousand dollars' worth of inventory & gunsmithing equipment, and pay yourselves salaries during the first year or two?

There's money in used guns, but you have to have the money to buy 'em.
Denis

[ozo]

Well, I am all for you.....100%....
and surely wish you great success.
This country was made great by people with
hard heads and a lot of drive and fortitude.

I was in biz over 40 yrs, and no expert still,
but I have a few thoughts.....please don't
take any of them wrong....they are not
meant to ridicule in any manner...seriously.

Being 18 is gonna be a huge obstacle.
Maybe a parent can get the FFL....fine.
Your partner, also 18, can only be so experienced
at gunsmithing, simply because of his time on earth.
Unless you have a large...VERY LARGE chunk of $$$$$
to order guns with.....these distributors...Hicks, Lipsey,
Davidsons,etc. are not only NOT gonna fool with you...
and what few guns you will get from them WILL NOT
be the 'sought after' guns that all the other big and
regular customers of theirs are on allocation for.....
it just won't happen.
Used gun inventory, you have to rip people off to buy
them low enough to make a good profit that keeps your
doors open....and you will need a lot of used guns to keep
any interest in return customers.
A gun shop WITH an in house gunsmith is a great and
wonderful place to shop, and people will go out of their
way to shop there....[it should be a requirement]
An indoor shooting range is an immense plus to have
at a gun shop....and brings a whole different swarm of bees.

I am on your side....I want you to succeed....BIG TIME !!!
For your sake, for mine, and for my country.....from my heart.
We have a gun shop and range here, and my daughter has
a gun shop in Georgia.....http://www.facebook.com/groups/177488842317632/
Most of the time....it's fun......

[DPris]

The point about your buddy not being an experienced gunsmith is very valid.
Not knocking him, but it takes YEARS to get that type of experience, he simply hasn't been alive long enough, and your own gunshop is not the place to be starting out as a newbie regardless of how good he may be mechanically. He also can't possibly be as well-equipped with tools, equipment, fixtures, and so on.
People don't want to pay you to learn on their guns, and fixing what you broke in ignorance can get very expensive very fast.

I've known two gunshop startups by friends, one went under & the other had to sell out to a man with enough financing to keep it afloat till it began to produce money.

Much as I'd like to see more small operations in the biz, a hole-in-the-waller with limited inventory and an inexperienced gunsmith has more odds stacked against it than you're seeing.

Rent, utilities, tools, inventory, fire & liability insurance, personal health insurance, local business license & taxes, federal taxes, and so on will DEMAND a bunch of money just to open your doors.
And don't think you can count on a "Sorry, we don't have that in stock, but we can order it for you" approach.

That may work to a degree with established customers, but walk-ins want it NOW. If you don't have it now, they'll go to someplace that does. I gave up going to one local guy ten miles away from my house because he rarely had anything I needed, but he could always order it, and I cheerfully drive 25 miles to a larger store that does have 99% of what I want.
The rest I can order myself.
That guy's out of business now.
A second gunshop that started up with at least a hundred grand in inventory about two miles away from the first also went down in less than two years.

If you really need to open your own shop, I'd recommend you hold off till you can get more business experience & your buddy can get more gun experience.
Get jobs, if you possibly can, in those areas & learn.
A degree for you can be helpful in looking for business loans, a gunsmith school certificate AND a resume that shows at least a couple years working as a paid gunsmith in somebody else's shop for him, and you stand an infinitely better chance of somebody with money to lend taking you seriously.

Without those (and I'm not knocking your age as such), from a lender's point of view you're just two highschool graduates with an idea, no applicable experience, and no viable business model.
In other words, a bad risk.

Your best chances of success in a gunshop don't come solely from burning determination, they come from a solid foundation to build on.
Denis

[.Scarecrow.]

Plan2Live... Just Thank You.

[.Scarecrow.]

Let's get this put out there again, it was hinted at in previous messages. I am NOT.... Doing it right now. And for everyone else, I am NOT starting the business right now. I am not sure where people are getting that from, unless they just put it together for themselves. I did not directly say I am starting right now.

[DPris]

You said you have a store front lined up in a business your buddy's parents are closing "soon".
Sorta implied "soon". :)
If not, good luck whenever.

You asked, you were given good advice.
Denis

[oneounceload]

Some folks get great advice and just don't like what they hear, so they are determined to prove all of those experienced folks "wrong"

It's OK, it is called the school of hard knocks, and some folks learn better that way

He has been given the benefit of those of us who have had small businesses, the upsides and downs.......he either listens or learns the hard way

It is now his choice

[.Scarecrow.]

I guess I came on wanting advice on how to go about it, and when those come on advising against it, I just kind of say, "Well, I suppose that's advice." But it just seems like a wrong decision to say, "Since a bunch of guys on a forum told me to just flat out not do it. I guess I'll just quit right here and now." I came on looking for what it takes to get one running someday, whether it's pure retail, a custom shop, or what have you. And I have gotten great advice on that! I am really pleased with those who have helped me with that. I guess what I'm trying to say is yes I possibly came on looking for a certain kind of advice, maybe I have selective hearing like that. Because it just sounds silly for me to hear, "Don't even try, it's too hard."

[DPris]

OK, boiled down:

Get some business experience.
Get a degree if you can.
Get your buddy a gunsmith course & 5 years experience.
Get a good location, easy access from major streets, clean area, businesslike atmosphere.
Get a good location.
Get a good location.
Get a good location.
Get enough startup money together to carry a decent range of current new & used long guns & handguns in the front, with cleaning gear & accessories on racks & shelves.
Get enough startup money to fully equip a functional shop in the back, including hand tools, a mill, a compressor, and all the small bits & pieces needed to operate them.
Get a picture of what you can expect from distributors & what they'll expect from you in terms of minimum orders, delivery times, payment terms.
Get to be at least 21.
Get insurance.
Get a clear picture of what you can offer a clientele that the big outfit can't.
Get set up quite a ways FROM the big outfit.
Get a VERY good alarm system & service.
Get used to long hours and little income at the beginning, with a very real possibility of going under.
Get a corporation or LLC set up so your personal assets can't be seized if you do go under.
Get a clear understanding of what taxes need to be paid, to whom, and when.
Get a business accounting class or two behind you.
Get a clear idea of the costs involved in setting up your premises (counters, racks, lighting, flooring, vault, etc.).
Get a clear layout on paper of what your startup costs will be in premises setup, tools, equipment, inventory, insurance, licensing, rent, and other ancillary costs to present to a prospective lender.

How's that? :)
Denis

[oneounceload]

I guess I came on wanting advice on how to go about it, and when those come on advising against it, I just kind of say, "Well, I suppose that's advice." But it just seems like a wrong decision to say, "Since a bunch of guys on a forum told me to just flat out not do it. I guess I'll just quit right here and now." I came on looking for what it takes to get one running someday, whether it's pure retail, a custom shop, or what have you. And I have gotten great advice on that! I am really pleased with those who have helped me with that. I guess what I'm trying to say is yes I possibly came on looking for a certain kind of advice, maybe I have selective hearing like that. Because it just sounds silly for me to hear, "Don't even try, it's too hard."

And you presented NO business plan
You aren't old enough to hold the FFL or get business lending
You have presented NO idea what is involved with start up costs, operating costs, or long-term costs
You didn't realize that wholesale costs are different for every business out there
You haven't even demonstrated that you don't know anything about Yellow Pages or other media advertising costs, rent, utilities, fees, licenses
You mention your other 18 year old partner being an accomplished gun smith - SERIOUSLY?
You have no plan as to what you NEED to stock and sell
You do not realize that new guns have a minimal margin

Dude- try being honest with yourself - you don't have a CLUE - you have had a LOT of us spend a LOT of time trying to put out what is necessary to succeed.......

What part of all of this are you not willing to understand?

[TAKtical]

I looked into this a long time ago and its always been a dream of mine to open a gunshop/range. Before the indoor range was even brought into the scenario, I was looking at $600k start up costs for a store with mediocre selection (IMO). I hope you guys can do it and I wish you the best. You have a lot of time to get everything figured out. Take the next few years to go over every scenario, talk to a lawyer, build up your credit, and put together a solid business plan.

[MachIVshooter]

If my informaton is correct, a friend of mine here in Columbia,SC reminds me that about four years ago he dropped by some guy's two car garage (attached to his house) to buy somethng or other they were selling out of their garage. That business was Palmetto State Armory. Look where they are today. Banana Republic was started with less than $2,000 and a dream.

For every Palmetto, Banana Republic or Microsoft success story, there are THOUSANDS of failures. Roughly 80% of small businesses in the USA fail within the first 5 years, half of the remaining die in the next five. Of those that do make it beyond a decade, most will never be more than a modest income for the owners and employees. Very, VERY few companies rise from nowhere to become great success stories; Most of those were started with big money, and often bought and sold more than a few times.

I started my own business after 13 years in the field, and I already had much of my equipment bought and paid for. It took well over a year before I was making enough to start enjoying life a bit, and I still don't roll around in piles of money. Sure, I can afford a few guns a year and can throw some money at other things, but part of that is working 80+ hours a week, and part of it is not pissing money away on little stuff, like eating out all the time. And I drive a 23 year old truck.

We aren't telling junior not to do this, we're just trying to explain the reality of owning a business, and, more specifically, how difficult it is to get into (and survive in) the retail firearms biz.

[.Scarecrow.]

This is for oneounceload. I want to first point out that my friend is good for HIS AGE, I never said he was the Pinnacle of modern gun smithing. You are freaking out more than anyone else on this thread and I think someone needs to spend some time talking to the Lord. I think my absence of not knowing about things such as wholesale prices and not having the rest of my LIFE planned out at 18 Years Old is not as big an issue as you not being able to read past topics that have already been covered such as the fact that I can't acquire my FFL until I am 21 and again the fact that my friend is pretty good for being an 18 year old. I don't know about you but I don't know any other 18 year olds that can perform a good trigger job on their Vaguero and successfully jewel a rifle action. That may not be an amazing feet but I think it's not bad for an 18 year old guy. And besides, I thought this was The High Road, DUDE... Replies from you will no longer be read.

[.Scarecrow.]

MachIVshooter. I will try to take precaution in the years to come. I don't think I could possibly do too much research, luckily I have 3 years to do just that. I have enough time to get all my plans straightened out. And I suppose I will also need to decide if it is even worth it. But as of right now, from what I have read, I am still game. Hopefully after all my research I still will be. Alright, I think that's enough for now.

[DPris]

I can do a trigger job on a Vaquero, and I make no claims to being a gunsmith.

With all of the varieties of firearms out there, and all the complexities involved in truly understanding them, much less being competent to work on them, what we're trying to say is that your buddy simply cannot be ready for primetime yet, no matter how good you think he is.
He may very well show the basic aptitude, but that alone can't carry it.

Gunsmithing combines an engineer with a mechanic with a metallurgist with a machinist with a designer (on occasion), and it takes YEARS to become truly proficient in working on the various designs.
It goes far beyond just swapping parts, doing a trigger job on a simple Vaquero, and so on.
No- that trigger job and jewelling a bolt are more than most 18-year-olds can do, but those are a drop in the bucket.

"For his age" is a problem you may not see, since you're the same age.
No offense, but I make my living dealing with the firearms industry, and I wouldn't allow an 18-year-old to do anything more than replace a grip screw on my guns, without seeing a track record. And a bundle of examples to show his abilities.

Your ages will work against you and for quite a while.
That's why we've said to establish a solid foundation to build on.

Right now you have nothing special to offer a customer.
No management experience, no realistic gunsmithing experience, no niche, no overall "product" to sell, and absolutely nothing to inspire anybody to do business with you.

Get those, along with a couple more years under your belt, and LOTS of startup capital, and go for it.
Denis

[SSN Vet]

My wife's cousin wanted to go into business... so rather than sending him to get a degree, his dad used that money to get him set up in a Cinnabon franchise. He busted his butt for quite some time and then despite his best efforts, the business failed.

He learned more from that experience than any business degree could have tought him...

Later he went into the real estate appraisal business and has done very well. Even managing to thrive through this recession.

My only advice is to do it while your young and b4 you get involved in a serious relationship and start a family. To quote my father's speach to me from long ago... "you have no idea how much it costs to support a family".

[Al Thompson]

I'm not sure Palmetto SA is a good example (yet) as there are some strange things going on there.

.Scarecrow, relative to our local area, there have been several gunshops that have folded trying to be just like the other gunshops.

My advice would be to concentrate on being different and filling a niche market. We have a very successful shop here that's a bit off the radar for most folks as they service a niche market.

[fallout mike]

I would like to be able to defend the op for all the flak he's getting from the "don't do it" crap. He didn't ask whether he should do it or not. I think. That's why I can't defend him bc I can't make heads or tails of the op.

[cheeze]

"Any advice will be of great help." Last sentence of the OP. Plenty of advice, most of it pretty sound, followed. I know a lot of this isn't what you were hoping to hear scarecrow... and you might not care to listen to it and think there's a way around every obstacle. Well, you're right... there is. Can you find it? That's the question. If you can, you will probably succeed at whatever you do.

[Speedgoat]

You'll get pleanty of nay-sayers going against ya starting out business young, I did myself a short few years ago but take it all with a grain of salt. If you've got a good worthwhile worth ethic then you should do well in any business, especially a gun shop. For me personally when I look for a local gun shop it's all about how well the person who I deal with (who often times is also the owner) treats me. I'll gladly spend more money, usually $50-150 more, on a 'big ticket purchase' of a new rifle, pistol or shotgun if the person is there to help me out. I recently was trying to track down my Winchester M70 Alaskan in .300 Win Mag, I called around and drove around town for the better part of all day and was finally able to find a shop that was able to find a dealer with one. He was about $50 over what Bud's on line store price was, and he ended up making about another $200 that day when I got scope rings, bases, and several boxes of ammo. His help paid off for both of us. I've also vowed to never purchase a 'big ticket' item at some stores because they won't give you the time of day if you are there trying to check out something. I guess to sum up what I'm saying is that for me out of all the different types of stores I shop at, gun/firearm stores matter the most to me on how customer service is.

[DPris]

Scarecrow,
One additional piece:

Take all of the expense outgo (total monthly debt service) I mentioned above, total it, check into current dealer margins (when you're ready to go) & try to approximate what dollar amount of sales you'd need to make JUST TO MEET MONTHLY EXPENSES. Add in whatever salaries you & your buddy would have to have to get by for a couple years. Add in whatever monthly payments you'd need to make on your business loan.

Figure out if it'd be possible to move enough merchandise & gunsmithing services to make operating expenses each month.
If the balance tips in the right direction, you may have a chance.
IF you can get the business & gunsmith experience you'd both need.
AND the start-up money.

If you can get enough financing to lay in a high enough inventory up front & you can find your niche that the big store can't beat you on, the front may be able to carry the operation while the back builds up a smithing clientele.

It'll be quite a while before the back room begins to pay for itself, and absorb the cost of machinery & tools.

Denis

[gym]

As mentioned, you should start by getting a job in the best gun store with the best reputation in your area. Spend a year there, you will learn if it's for you or not.
That's what I did, and I ended up with 5 salons and a health club, if I would have done it on my own, I would have gone broke in 6 months. Do yourselves a favor and learn on someone elses dime.