[djwalker60]

Greetings:

I am not too new to reloading .308 Winchester. But recently ran into a little problem. I have a Hornady Progressive reloader and use Lee dies for my .308. I have followed the instructions, I have deprimed, re-sized and chamfered the inside and outside of the brass. But yet on a recent batch of 100 rounds of .308 brass the rounds will NOT fully seat into either my Remington 700 or Ruger ScoutRifle. I am going to try and resize once again by running "down" my resizing down as far as I can to see if that helps. But I took a micrometer and measured. I measured a known good brass and the "bad" brass and measurements are same, well almost. So a picture is worth a thousand words.. Any thoughts as too why this would not load? The brass with the red line is the bad brass that will not feed. I did notice a slight difference in the taper of the neck.. Poor resizing? Could this be the culprit?

[beatledog7]

I suspect the shoulders need to be pushed back a bit, and running your die down may do it. Have you actually followed the Lee directions for this die? They are good and usually provide for a SAAMI-spec case that will chamber in any rifle.

[CMC]

You also need to make a dummy ( no powder or primer ) round and cycle it thru both rifles before you proceed.
I also reload for 308 but only 40 rounds at a time on a single stage , It takes me while to do it and I could not afford that many rounds incorrectly done.
Good luck

[djwalker60]

Yes not fun to pull 100 rounds and then try again. I will try running down the resizing die as far as necessary to get that neck size down. I hope that is it. Maybe a bad bag of brass? I've reloaded about 700 rounds and over the course of time I've learned a few things and have not had this issue before.

Oh, Note: I did a dummy (we'll I think so) on this set of reloads. I "crimped" maybe I over crimped thus deforming the neck. My other rounds I did NOT crimp. We'll Now why did i crimp this time and not the others? Good question,..... I guess I was reading something, but I guess I should have stayed the course. But on the subject of crimping.... I've read it could actually help in accuracy.. True? or yet another tale...

[sage5907]

Remember that the chamber length is on the shoulder and not on the end of the neck. One easy solution is to buy a RCBS case micrometer on eBay for about $58 and you can easily determine what is happening. If you set your sizer die to the "0" measurement on the micrometer it removes all guessing. The "0" reading is about .003 longer than a new case and about .002 shorter than a fired case. Shooter

[tcj]

May want to use a case gauge aas well...I reload a LOT of 30.06 and use the gauge after resizing and then again after loading. For my guns -- an M1 Garand and a Win 70 (bolt) if it fits in the gauge it always chambers.

[Dave P]

A cheaper tool is the 20$ lyman case gage - great thing to have. Checks for diameters, headspace, and OAL.

And in case you do make a batch that is not sized correctly (I have never done that :D ) the redding body die will easily get you back on track.

[243winxb]

Sounds like a bulge from over crimping. No crimp needed.

[djwalker60]

That is what I am thinking. By crimping I've created a bulge in the brass thus deforming the neck area. I'll do my best to try and resize again. But if it is a real "pain" :banghead: I will just scrap the entire 100 rounds of brass. Like taking 35.00 and putting it in the trash.. But if I am unable to use them then the lot is useless.

Regards
Dan

[Innovative]

djwalker60 ......

I am not familiar with the Hornady progressive press. However, some progressive presses have VERY unusual symptoms when ALL of the starions are not adjusted correctly.

http://www.larrywillis.com/reloading%20ammunition.jpg

This case was resized with a Dillon progressive press. The powder measure "height" incorrectly set when switching from handgun calibers to a rifle caliber.
Pretty fancy handload aye?

.

[mineralman55]

You didn't mention that you trimmed the cases. After firing they do elongate.

[morcey2]

Innovative: Isn't that just a case designed for the new accordian-chambered FAL?

:)

[cfullgraf]

A cheaper tool is the 20$ lyman case gage - great thing to have. Checks for diameters, headspace, and OAL.



Shoulder position and overall length, yes. Diameters, no. Rifle case gauges are generally cut generously in the diameter of the body.

Check the manufacturer's description and specifications.

[Innovative]

243winxb .... +1 .... there's no need to crimp a .308 Win.

Most dies are designed to be used with a common shellholder, and most progressive presses use shell plates. That could position your sizing die low enough to crimp your cases by surprise.

It's also important to know how far your shoulder is being pushed back. Excessive shoulder clearance can cause case head separation. This is a good thing for all handloaders to measure - and minimize.

[djwalker60]

Yes I did trim all of the brass down to the correct size. I use my RCBS Trim Pro Case Trimmer. I will try to resize again a few of the cases to see what happens when I adjust the full length sizing die I have from Lee. Basically my process is this:


Re-size and De-Prime in one step via the Lee Full Size Die
Sonic Clean for about 40 Minutes
Trim Cases to length and chamfer inside and outside of case
Tumble the case to polish and hopfully deburr the cases from trimming


A long process, but necessary. However this bugs me because the distortion of the cases were not really visible. Yet another lesson learned.

[Innovative]

djwalker60 ......

Your die height is important, and a progressive press requires extra attention in setting die height correctly. You already mentioned that you have experience reloading, and that led me think about all of the problems that even experienced reloaders run into with progressive presses.

Verify the height setting on ALL of your dies.

[djwalker60]

Agree, everyone learns something through out any process. :confused: Re-loading is no exception. I will look at the height of my resizing die and give it a try.

Thank You for all of the valuable input. :)


Dan

[blarby]

When you super the to images over each other, the shoulder on the case with the red line looks too aggressive.

But, if they aren't lined up 100%, that's not the precision tool it could be.... but I would still suggest checking the shoulders.

A note on case mouths- thats a LOT of chamfer ! I mean, A LOT. I have serious doubts that could be causing the problem, but thats very heavy !

[230RN]

Necks do thicken after a number of firings, especially right at the junction between the neck and the shoulder. This is caused by the body brass tending to flow forward under the pressure and heat of firing, as well as by the brass being drawn forward in successive sizing operations.

So it sounds possible that it's time for a little neck reaming. The last neck-sizing operation before charging and seating is the neck expansion, which would make the outside diameter of the neck oversized if the neck brass is too thick. Then you seat a bullet and the OD of the neck gets even greater.

" I measured a known good brass and the "bad" brass and measurements are same, well almost."

Once again the brass "accumulates," especially at that junction between the neck and the shoulder, which is difficult to measure and makes the brass difficult to chamber.

I had to inside-neck ream some .243 Win brass with a Letter "C" drill bit in my lathe to do this to eliminate that inside bump at that point. There doesn't seem to be a drill bit size corresponding to exactly .308, --Letter "N" and 5/16" bits fall on both sides of .308".

Forster, Wilson, and others make hand-operated inside-neck reamers/lathes. An example, from Forster:

http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_images/catalog19938/pages/images/NECK_REAMER_ACC_300.jpg

This one will also length-trim the cases in the same operation by the setting the locking collar appropriately.

Do you know the history of that brass? It doesn't look as if it's been reloaded a number of times, but it could have been tumbled to clean it up.

I also noticed that the extraction cannelure is a little deeper and wider than the "feedable" brass, but I don't see that affecting the chambering.

Terry, 230RN

[fguffey]

It has become the norm for reloaders, full length sizing to minimal length has become a lost art, I measure before and again after, if a case whips my press I know it, when my press wins I am not surprised.

With the minimum investment in tools and more time searching for answers that do not start with “Have I got a deal for you, let me sell you my tool... etc...” or “you gotta screw the die down more, start with 1/4” then continue until the top of the press is put into a 9 line bind (oil field talk_).

Again, I measure before and again after, I measure the length of the chamber from the bolt face to its shoulder first, I know how to adjust my die to achieve the desired length of the case from the head of the case to its should if I do not choose to use cases that have more resistance to sizing than the ability of my press to overcome the resistance.

Not all of my presses have the same ability to overcome resistance, I am not the fan of abusing a press.

Again, my favorite tool for overcoming the dies inability to overcome resistance and chamber length is the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. Inability and chamber length, that would include chamber that are .012” shorter than a minimum length case to a +.016” longer than a minimum length/full length sized case without grinding the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder, that includes the need for Redding Competition shell holders, expensive but not necessary, nice to have? Still not necessary.

F. Guffey

[rangerrick64]

Are you lubing inside of the case mouth I have had cases on the out stroke get real sticky and have enough pull to make them to long by streching neck back out.

[fguffey]

“I also noticed that the extraction canelure is a little deeper and wider than the "feedable" brass, but I don't see that affecting the chambering”

If you did not measure the depth and the width of the extractor grove first a difference will not have a value, The extractor grove would not get deeper and or wider? with heavy loads you would have just the opposite effect, again, Who measures? I thought there was a difference extractor groves, all my shell holders are not alike, there are some shell holders that allow me to shorten the deck height of the shell holder, lowering the deck height allows me to increase the effect of sizing overcoming case resistance to sizing, some shell holders do not offer the advantage, but offer other advantages. Lowering the deck height of the shell holder also allows me to increase the dies ability to shorten the case from the head of the case to its shoulder.

It does not take me long to look at it, I know when my press whips the case, I know when the case whips my press.

I start by knowing if my die has the ability to size a case to minimum length/full length size. I have Herters dies, Pacific dies, Weatherby dies, Hornady dies, Hollywood Gun Shop dies, Lyman dies, C&H dies, Lochmiller dies, Texan dies, I do not have to start over when I change dies, I simply adjust my sizer die to or off the shell holder every time I use them, and I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

F. Guffey

[highbrow]

Had the same thing happen years ago using Lee dies. Was an intermitant problem, Went away when I switched to RCBS dies.

[the count]

Are you lubing inside of the case mouth I have had cases on the out stroke get real sticky and have enough pull to make them to long by streching neck back out.

+1
Too much or too little lube can cause all kinds of unexpected problems. Do not lube the shoulders or outside of necks.

[eldon519]

I read twice, but I still might have missed this: are you having trouble chambering your resized brass or your loaded cartridges? If it is loaded cartridges, you could have your bullets seated too far out. There should be tell-tale marks on the bullet itself where it has engaged the rifling if that is the problem. If you are using pulled military bullets or the bulk FMJ 145-150gr type bullets, sometimes the ogives aren't quite as uniform as they might be no a match bullet, and some bullets might engage the rifling while others might not, even if they have the same OAL.

It might be worth trying to chamber your resized brass which could also tell you if your problems have to do with some sort of problem with the neck thickness or crimp. If the resized, unloaded cases won't load, it probably has to do with the shoulder being too far forward.

[sage5907]

Don't throw your brass away just because you have a problem. Use a collet type bullet puller such as the ones made by RCBS. Remove the bullets, dump the powder charges, run the cases through the sizing die again to get the shoulder and neck problem corrected. The un-fired primers will come out without a problem. When you get through sizing wash the cases in hot soapy water to make sure every grain of powder has been removed from the case. Rinse in clean water, and after a drying period they can be loaded again. Shooter

[W.E.G.]

If you're not using a case gage to measure your sized cases to set up your sizing die, you're doing it wrong.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/ammunition/precisionmic.jpg

[djwalker60]

Greetings

Update: I reset my Lee Die down further and resized the brass again. Still the same result on the feeding ( by the way I have pulled all of bullets from the brass and have reclaimed the bullets and powder )

So I did it again and again, setting my Lee die to different heights in my reloader (Hornady Progressive loader) Still same results. I failed to take a picture of it this time. So I tried another bag of .308 brass that I had. I ran the brass through the Lee Die, no issues there. Then I set a bullet in the new batch of brass and the rounds feed well into the Remington 700 and into my Ruger Scout Rifle. So it seems no matter what I have tried this batch of brass is not working. Maybe when I crimped it before, I really over crimped and distorted the shoulders a lot. It just baffles me and is driving me nuts :cuss: but I cannot continue to beat myself up on this one. Lesson learned about over crimping.

It was mentioned about "reming" the case neck. One measurement I did last night which I thought odd was the fact that before I put a bullet into the brass the neck sizes on both of the rounds were the same, about .337" which I believe is what is should be after going through the re-sizer. But in the brass that will not feed all of the way the neck size after bullet insertion was at .3415" which is about .0045" larger. Could it be that these cartridges are starting to deform? I purchased them from an on-line site and there were advertised as "Once Fired". I have ordered from the company before and never had any issues.


Oh On yet another note, I see the point of the over chamfer, I will definitely reset that. I thought it look like a lot, but I am still learning how to reload .308. Pistols and 5.56 are not so difficult, but these .308 rounds are just kicking me in the butt. !!


I think this weekend if I have time I will try yet again.

[243winxb]

But in the brass that will not feed all of the way the neck size after bullet insertion was at .3415" which is about .0045" larger. Maximum is .3435" you should be ok. Any bulge from crimping will be removed when FL sizing the brass the 2nd time. The problem brass may have expanded to much in the web area. This area is not sized by most FL dies. Small base die will size more. F. Guffey> (smaller). Lee does not make them, but will custom fit your dies to your fired brass if returned. Most problems like this is because the shoulder is not being pushed back far enough on full length sizing. Check measurement of your problem brass against the SAAMI standards. > http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

[LennieT]

W.E.T said, If you're not using a case gage to measure your sized cases to set up your sizing die, you're doing it wrong.

+1 to that. Different shell holders of the same brand will give different results when full length sizing. Without the gage you are pretty much clueless.

Discovered this after picking up the wrong shell holder (both shell holders are the same numbered RCBS) and sizing a ton of 5.56 brass. When I finally stopped and checked with the gage I was over the minimum. The amount I was over was less than any of my rifles chambers, but I went ahead and ran that brass through the sizing die again with the correct shell holder.

Not so sure stuff doesn't change even though it is locked down. You don't have to check every case but you need to at least spot check.

Lennie

[243winxb]

+ 1 Shell plates on a progressive can be different thickness at each station,causing problems. Flex in the sub plate as it sit on the ram or die holders may need shims to remove slop.

[djwalker60]

Just ordered a RCBS small base re-sizing die and also the RCBS PRECISION MIC 308 WIN. I will keep this brass and once I get the new die in I'll give it a try again.

What a journey to reload some .308 and what a lesson learned about "crimping" .308. Yet another lesson learned.


Dan

[Blue68f100]

The Precison mic will tell you where the shoulder is without question. It's great on setting up dies if you only want to go back the bare minimum.

[gamestalker]

I agree that although not the issue, that is excessive ream and chamfering.

I would bet that you aren't bumping the shoulders back quite enough. Try readjusting the die down in .002" increments until they chamber normal. Be careful not to bump them back more than is necessary to allow for normal chambering or you'll likely experience case neck separations.

GS

[fguffey]

Or by some means, way, technique or method learn how to measure the length of a case from the head of the case to its shoulder, I have 90 good options between .454” and .343”, yes, I know there are 111 options between .454” and .343 (in thousandths), not all are good options. After acquiring a method and or technique that would allow for measuring the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder the reloader should be able to determine the length of the chamber from the bolt face to to the shoulder of the chamber.

I choose to determine the length of the chamber first, again when it comes to determining the length of the chamber it is OK for the gage to be too long when using different methods and or techniques.

Again, an armorer/smith stamped many M1917s at an arsenal in Utah, he checked chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber with a field reject gage, when it came to determining the length of a 30/06 chamber he had 9 options above a go-gage length chamber or 14 when compared to a minimum length/full length sized case. His co-workers blamed him for stretched receivers, they accused him! They did not ask him how he did ‘it’.

F. Guffey

[mtrmn]

"Originally Posted by Dave P
A cheaper tool is the 20$ lyman case gage - great thing to have. Checks for diameters, headspace, and OAL."

CFULLGRAF:

"Shoulder position and overall length, yes. Diameters, no. Rifle case gauges are generally cut generously in the diameter of the body.

Check the manufacturer's description and specifications."
__________________

I agree fully with this. Almost all the case gages have straight-drilled bores--just the case length and headspace at the shoulder are measured. They DO NOT have tapered inner walls like your chamber does. The only ones that I KNOW OF that measure ALL dimensions are the JP case gages from JP Rifles. They are actually cut with chamber reamers, not drilled. I bought mine from Brownells. The downside is they are only available (again, as far as I know) in .223 and .308. They WILL catch all cases that won't chamber. I load thousands of rounds, and each one gets dropped in a JP gage before it goes in the ammo can.

[fguffey]

“The problem brass may have expanded to much in the web area. This area is not sized by most FL dies. Small base die will size more”

I have small base dies, I have full length sizing dies, etc., etc.. What I do not have is the ability to size more of the case than my shell holders will allow me to size, all my shell holders have a deck height of .125".

It all goes beck to reloading is not fail, other reloaders acquire reloading equipment that is not like my reloading equipment.

F. Guffey

[djwalker60]

RCBS dies will not arrive for another few days... I have not given up yet on those "bad cartridges" but will try to have another go at them when the new dies arrive.

Regards
Dan

[stubbicatt]

If not trimmed to same length, and if the seating die is set up to crimp the shortest cases, often the shoulder will buckle a little bit upon the application of the crimp.

[89blazin]

+1 eldon519

[AABEN]

Greetings:

I am not too new to reloading .308 Winchester. But recently ran into a little problem. I have a Hornady Progressive reloader and use Lee dies for my .308. I have followed the instructions, I have deprimed, re-sized and chamfered the inside and outside of the brass. But yet on a recent batch of 100 rounds of .308 brass the rounds will NOT fully seat into either my Remington 700 or Ruger ScoutRifle. I am going to try and resize once again by running "down" my resizing down as far as I can to see if that helps. But I took a micrometer and measured. I measured a known good brass and the "bad" brass and measurements are same, well almost. So a picture is worth a thousand words.. Any thoughts as too why this would not load? The brass with the red line is the bad brass that will not feed. I did notice a slight difference in the taper of the neck.. Poor resizing? Could this be the culprit?
I had this happen to me! I was tired and did not run it in all the way. They was to big at the end. I pulled the primer pin out and rerun them and they worked.

[jim243]

Get something like this for setting up your die.

Jim


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_1742.jpg
http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0338.jpg

[djwalker60]

Well while waiting on my new RCBS Die, I took my lee die and put it at different heights in the progressive reloader. It appears that this did make a difference. I raised the die up a bit and the brass seems to work a bit better, But the jury is still out. I want to wait until I get that new die in this weekend to try and see what happens. This little problem is driving me nuts.. Why oh Why does it appears that .308 is so much harder than 5.56 / .223 ??

[Innovative]

djwalker60 .......

The case width gauge (shown above) will show if your handloads are somewhere within industry standard specifications. Take a look at the Digital Headspace Gauge. It is designed to show how your handloads will fit in YOUR particular chamber. It can also display how far your bullet jumps to the rifling. Unlike the RCBS Precision Mic . . . . the Digital Headspace Gauge is not limited to any specific caliber.

http://www.larrywillis.com/COAD-06.jpg

There several different (and acceptable) methods to set die height correctly. Some techniques are accurate, some are not, and some are just frustrating guesswork.

[fguffey]

“the Digital Headspace Gauge is not limited to any specific caliber”

The caption does not match the picture, your picture is not a picture of a head space gage, the picture you posted is a picture of a comparator, your comparator post/stand looks weak, my comparators have a post/stand that are 1” in diameter and some cost less than your incorrectly labeled ‘head space gages’.

I am sure your tools are nice, as sure as I am convinced they are nice, I am equally convinced they are not necessary.

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey ........

Hornady wisely decided on this name, because although this tool is a comparator, for handloaders, it is esentially a headspace gauge for their particular chamber.

I could have used a 4" diameter post, but I thought it would be a little over-kill. So far, there are almost 2,000 shooters using them. For some reason, nobody that actually owns one has ever mentioned the things that you think up.

I also have a Reloading DVD that shows how this Innovative tool can troubleshoot problems with handloads, as well as measure bullet jump.

[djwalker60]

Well I tried yet again on this load of brass that I guess I really screwed up by over crimping, for that fact crimping at all. I think it's time to trash a 100 rounds of .308 Brass. No idea what to do with them. Cost me about $35.00 for the 100 but I guess it's a lessoned learned on what NOT to do. Any last ideas before I trash?

[Innovative]

measure twice . . . . reload once.

[blarby]

measure twice . . . . reload once.

Well, I prefer to load 'em over and over again, but thats good advice :neener:

[djwalker60]

Well I am suppose to get the new RCBS die today. I'll give a few a try over the weekend and see what happens.. very Frustrating when thing go wrong. :banghead: Especially when you think you tried everything.. If this doesn't work.. I give !!
Dan

[TheCracker]

I had a problem once with 308 using my lee fl sizer die. I had the die set up incorrectly. It was not making firm contact with the shell holder. Since it was not bumping the shoulder back all the way it would not chamber at all. After I pulled all 100 and resize correctly it was perfectly fine.

I suspect this is your problem. Break one down, readjust your die following lee's directions. It should work then

[Innovative]

TheCracker ......... +1

If you're not going to accurately measure your work, that's step number one.

[A Pause for the Coz]

W.E.T said, If you're not using a case gage to measure your sized cases to set up your sizing die, you're doing it wrong.

+1 to that. Different shell holders of the same brand will give different results when full length sizing. Without the gage you are pretty much clueless.

Discovered this after picking up the wrong shell holder (both shell holders are the same numbered RCBS) and sizing a ton of 5.56 brass. When I finally stopped and checked with the gage I was over the minimum. The amount I was over was less than any of my rifles chambers, but I went ahead and ran that brass through the sizing die again with the correct shell holder.

Not so sure stuff doesn't change even though it is locked down. You don't have to check every case but you need to at least spot check.

Lennie
This is what I was thinking. I quit resizing rifle brass on my Turret press and have never done it on my progressives.
I only resize rifle brass on my single stage and then I run them through a gage.

Getting the proper set back on the shoulder is important. Wont say it cant be done on a turret or progressive. But it does not work consistently enough for me.

On a turret you have give in the turret it self that has to be accounted for when setting up the die.

On a progressive... I dont see how you could set it up for a consistent resize on the shoulder. There is flex in the shell plate that changes with every round you load. because you have 4 other stations that effect it depending on their set up.
Plus if its a LNL bushing or a pinned tool head, there is play in that too.
I suppose for a bolt gun that your shooting the same cases in you may never know. But if you have multiple guns or semi autos.

Its just a whole bunch of variables to factor in I choose not to have to deal with.
A good solid full lenth size using a solid non bushed single stage work 100% of the time.

[kayaks]

I couldn't tell with all the replies if this was mentioned. I have a Hornady LNL Progressive press and had a similar problem with the mouth of the cases in .223. They looked like the one pictured at the post of this post.

The problem with my press was the powder measure, it was adjusted too low for the cases and was hitting the cases as they cycled through.

I also started out using a Hornady seating die and had better results going back to using my RCBS die. I had several accordion trying to seat a bullet.

[djwalker60]

Well the Jury is in......

Had issue with 100 rounds of cartridges that I reloaded because of over crimping. Because of the over crimp, the rounds wouldn't load into any .308 rifle. It was obvious that there were issues with the case, they appeared really deformed. After posting here it was pointed out to get a case head space measuring device (RCBS Micro) After checking the cartridges the head space was measured between 8 - 10, should be a zero (0) = 1.6340 according to SAAMI. So there was a major issue. I also purchased the a new RCBS small base resizing die. After making several adjustments with the height of the resizing die, I was able to get the cartridges down to either 0 or a -1.0 to -1.5.

After this I made a few dummy rounds and they loaded very easily into the a .308 bold rifle. I will remeasure all of the brass before reloading.

So.... The cartridges can be saved and so far I have resized about 30 rounds and they are usable.. So thank you to those on this site,, Had to buy a few more tools ( about $80.00 ) but was able to save the cartridges and in the future I will be able to measure .308 brass better.

Time to buy a RCBS Micrometer for 5.56 / .223

Oh, pictures attached before and after.