[SkinnyGrey]

My guess is this question has been covered before on this site already. But I'm at home today without much to do and I am flirting with the idea of buying a new rifle, so humor me.

Of all of the new platforms out there, which is the best (best meaning, most durable, accurate, reliable, etc.)? Money being no object, which rifle would you buy and why would you buy it? If your answer is an AR 15, which make and model would you get?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

[eldon519]

You hear a lot about the Colt 6920. It's basically a civilian M4 with all the various tweaks, upgrades, mil-spec requirements, etc that the AR-15/M-16/M-4 family has benefited from through decades of battle testing.

Some of the other rifles may be equal or better designs, but none of them are used by any militaries in mass and haven't had the benefit of intensive battle testing and improvement/refinement cycles. Might still have some bugs to work out. The M4/M16 obviously had a somewhat notorious period for getting the kinks worked out, but nowadays, it seems to be the choice of most of the elite military groups around the world.

I'm not really big into tactical stuff, so I'm sure you'll get more informed opinions.

[SkinnyGrey]

Nevertheless, I very much liked your answer.

So what are you into, if you don't like tactical stuff all that much?

[eldon519]

I wouldn't say I dislike tactical stuff, it just comes out to play less than some of my other guns. I've got pair of ARs and a couple .308 battle rifles, but more often than not, I like to shoot revolvers and lever-action rifles. That might make it sound like I'm a cowboy enthusiast, but the honest answer is that I reload all my own ammo, and I prefer my well-behaved guns that have the good manners not to throw my much-cherished brass on the ground like it were garbage :) It just takes a little of the enjoyment out of it for me having to walk around bent over looking for it under benches, between people's feet, etc and then more cleaning/sorting is required to get the brass up to snuff for second-life (or third, or forth, or fifth...). Plus you might pick up other people's brass and who knows how it could have mistreated or misbehaved in a past life. Brass has karma, I assure you ;)

[moxie]

It would depend on the foreseen use.

If I wanted a compact rifle for home defense, some hunting, or an end of the world scenario, I'd get an M-4gery due to its now proven reliability, accuracy, and the availability of parts and service. I'd go with Noveske or Larue if cost was not a factor. The Colt 6920 is iconic and a value. I like my CMMG just as well.

If you're talking range toys, any of the others you mentioned would be fine.

[SkinnyGrey]

Brass has karma

I like that.

[1KPerDay]

If you have any concerns about availability/interchangeability of parts, get a good AR. Otherwise, for quality, reliability, accuracy, fun factor, and badassery, the SCAR is hard to beat, IMO.

[SkinnyGrey]

I already have two Stag Gas Piston ARs (one 6.8) and a S&W lower with a Stag upper on it, so I was thinking about going with something new.

[bpl]

I would get multiple AR15s in various configurations, nice optics for them, plenty of magazines and ammo.

Next would probably be a precision/tactical rifle in .308 and/or a semiauto battle rifle probably of the M1A flavor or maybe even an AR10 variant.

Then I'd get an AK or two...

Then, if I still had lots of fun money after all my financial obligations are paid, retirement if fully funded, etc., then I might consider an expensive, uncommon, proprietary but I'm sure fun range toy like the guns you listed.

[SkinnyGrey]

I was thinking about getting an AR 10 or Socom M14.

The reason the MR556 was appealing to me was because I have heard you could throw it in mud and not clean it and it would still fire flawlessly. I liked the idea of a super accurate rifle that required little maintenance-the rifle of the future. However I don't know if such a gun actually exists.

[1KPerDay]

The reason the MR556 was appealing to me was because I have heard you could throw it in mud and not clean it and it would still fire flawlessly.
aaaaah... the tried and true "throw it in the mud" criterion. :D

[SkinnyGrey]

aaaaah... the tried and true "throw it in the mud" criterion.

Indeed!:cool:

[briansmithwins]

I had to make the same choice recently and I went with the SCAR.

My reasoning:
1) SCAR is lighter.
2) FN's quality impressed me. They just did everything right w/o cheaping out. Barrel is properly hardchromed and 1:7, aluminum parts are well anodized, and steel bits are parkerized.
3) Replaceable (with slight modification) pistol grip (I have small hands.)
4) Better design. Bolt carrier seals openings in the rifle against exterior dirt. 18oz bolt carrier gives reserve of energy to keep operating. Easily adjusted gas system.
5) Charging handle. Simple 1 piece design tells you at a glance what's going on inside the rifle.

BSW

[SkinnyGrey]

I had to make the same choice recently and I went with the SCAR.

Between the MR556 and the SCAR, which would you say passes the 'throw in the mud' test with a higher score?

[briansmithwins]

I'd say the SCAR. Internally, the design is very well suited to shedding dirt. The bolt carrier is 'hung' from the top of the receiver on rails. The actual contact points are short, which gives the carrier a chance to push garbage out of the way, like the sand cuts on a FAL or the design of the AK.

Any dirt that is pushed off the rail either falls onto the outside of the barrel, where it does no harm, or onto the trigger area. The trigger group has 2 metal shields that prevent dirt from falling into the trigger group.

It's a very well though out design. It's like the engineers at FN went thru all the weak points of the AR design and eliminated them. The SCAR's bolt make a AR bolt look like a scale model. The manual say to clean the gas system every 1000 rounds. After ~250 rounds the interior of the receiver is still clean and wet with lube.

BSW

[Tedzilla]

I bought the SCAR 16S and then choose to go to the SCAR 17S .308 version when I decided to simplify my long gun calibers to .22, .308 and 12 gauge.
If you're going 5.56 the SCAR 16S is what I'd go with.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

If you're talking about the Beretta ARX-160, that's the one I'm interested in the most. I like how it's easily reversible to left hand by simply locking the bolt back and rotating the charging handle to the other side to change the side the weapon ejects.

[allaroundhunter]

If I were to get something new right now, it would be a new AR, probably a Noveske.

If you want a SCAR, wait until their new model comes out. It will have a non-reciprocating charging handle and other upgrades. The reason that I would not choose a SCAR is that a new (better) trigger costs around $500 right now (when you can find them in stock), and the stock trigger is not any better than an AR. Other upgrades to the SCAR are also considerably more expensive than AR upgrades.


But, if you were not considering upgrading the gun that you purchase at all....then the SCAR.

[MachIVshooter]

1) SCAR is lighter.

Than what? A basic M4gery is 6.8 lbs, the SCAR-L 16" is 7.5 lbs.

2) FN's quality impressed me. They just did everything right w/o cheaping out. Barrel is properly hardchromed and 1:7, aluminum parts are well anodized, and steel bits are parkerized.

Well, that's a personal opinion I guess, but the SCAR felt kinda hollow to me.

3) Replaceable (with slight modification) pistol grip (I have small hands.)

What grip isn't "replaceable (with slight modification)?

4) Better design. Bolt carrier seals openings in the rifle against exterior dirt. 18oz bolt carrier gives reserve of energy to keep operating. Easily adjusted gas system.

And provides a more authoratative whack to your shoulder as well.

5) Charging handle. Simple 1 piece design tells you at a glance what's going on inside the rifle.

And attempts to remove digits from the operator's hand, should he forget that he's shooting a SCAR and not ANY OTHER RIFLE EXTANT.

I'm not saying the SCAR is a bad weapon, but for one that was supposed to address shortcomings of the AR platform, it creates more problems than it solves.

[briansmithwins]

Most of those comparison points were vs. the ACR.

BSW

[JustinJ]

I recently went with an AUG but I also already had plenty of other assault style rifles. I'm a fan of the bullpup design and believe it is a far better choice for HD than any conventional 5.56 rifle.

However, if i were you i'd go with a Colt 6720, which is about as light as it gets, and an Arsenal AK in either 5.45 or 7.62.

The gov't profile barrels so popular today on AR's do nothing but add weight where it isn't needed. Unless you plan on attaching a grenade launcher a pencil barrel, as is found on the SCAR, is a far better choice. Daniel Defense also has excellent AR's with pencil barrels and i think BCM may as well. With DD you can get one with rails already installed.

[eldon519]

If you already have the two AR-15s in relatively similar calibers, I might get something that would offer more of a different experience. Maybe a .308 of some kind or perhaps get a AR upper in something like .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf or maybe a long heavy barrel target gun.

If you end up with 3 carbines that all do roughly the same thing, you'll probably just end up with a favorite and let the other two sit because they all offer roughly the same experience. Going with some kind of big bore or a target-type rifle would open up some different avenues and provide a little diversity in your range trips. This is just an insight from someone with way too many similar guns looking to whittle down his collection to a few favorites.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

should he forget that he's shooting a SCAR and not ANY OTHER RIFLE EXTANT.

Let's be fair here, training will fix this issue. If you just give the gun to someone and send them to war they are gonna have problems if they are used to AR15s. I don't see more recoil as an issue either. Some guns recoil more than others.

[1KPerDay]

The SCAR 16 has almost no recoil.

[allaroundhunter]

Than what? A basic M4gery is 6.8 lbs, the SCAR-L 16" is 7.5 lbs.

Just last night I held roughly 8 AR varients, 2 of which were basic M4gerys, and a SCAR. While the numbers say that the SCAR is heavier, I agree with many others who say that the SCAR feels lighter, regardless of what the numbers say.

And provides a more authoratative whack to your shoulder as well.

The SCAR most definitely does not hit "whack" a shoulder harder than an AR with a carbine length gas system. The added mass of the bolt carrier lends itself to a softer recoil impulse because the force is dissipated over a longer travel time.

I'm not saying the SCAR is a bad weapon, but for one that was supposed to address shortcomings of the AR platform, it creates more problems than it solves.

The only thing that I dislike about the SCAR is the reciprocating charging handle (which you mentioned). Fortunately, FN's new design removed this feature. Fingers, rejoice!

[JustinJ]

Just last night I held roughly 8 AR varients, 2 of which were basic M4gerys, and a SCAR. While the numbers say that the SCAR is heavier, I agree with many others who say that the SCAR feels lighter, regardless of what the numbers say.

The less weight a weapon has out forward the lighter it will feel when shouldered. This is quite noticeable with most bullpup rifles. Given the SCAR's light profile barrel the same effect occurs. However, rifle still weighs what the rifle weighs and how light it feels shouldered has nothing to do with how heavy it is when lugging around.

[allaroundhunter]

However, rifle still weighs what the rifle weighs and how light it feels shouldered has nothing to do with how heavy it is when lugging around.

I never said that it didn't and I wasn't arguing with the numbers that were given. I am just saying that the SCAR is very light, and does feel lighter than the carbine ARs (whether shouldered or just being held).

Those were just my impressions of the gun.

[briansmithwins]

There is also a apples and oranges comparison going on with regards to weight. How many piston driven, monolithic upper, quick barrel change, free floated ARs weigh 7.5 lbs?

My friends and I that have shot my SCAR have all commented about its lack of felt recoil. And mine has the brake removed.

BSW

[MachIVshooter]

The SCAR most definitely does not hit "whack" a shoulder harder than an AR with a carbine length gas system. The added mass of the bolt carrier lends itself to a softer recoil impulse because the force is dissipated over a longer travel time.

Depends on the AR's BCG, buffer and stock. The side-by-side shooting I did of the SCARs were versus my Armalite M15A2 Carbine and AR-10A2 carbine, both of which are mid length. And just like the SCAR light, the heavy had a noticeably stronger recoil impulse than the AR-10, as witnessed by myself and 3 other shooters.


The only thing that I dislike about the SCAR is the reciprocating charging handle (which you mentioned). Fortunately, FN's new design removed this feature. Fingers, rejoice!

Yes, rejoice, indeed. I don't know what they were thinking putting a reciprocating handle where they did, but it was a bad idea.

How many piston driven, monolithic upper, quick barrel change, free floated ARs weigh 7.5 lbs?

Well, the quick barrel change feature is obviously not an AR attribute. Quick upper change, of course, is. However, getting a piston AR with a free floated QR (effectively monolithic) to 7.5 lbs is not impossible. If you care about piston operation at all, that is. I don't, so I get to keep that half pound off of my guns.

Again, I'm not saying the SCAR is bad, and for those who like it, great. It's a nice rifle. For me, however (and many others, it would seem) the SCAR does not offer an improvement over the AR, especially considering the AR you can get at the SCAR's price point.

[briansmithwins]

Again, apples to oranges. The price point for a AR with the SCAR's features is going to be very close to the $2500 SCARs go for these days. And you still won't have the design advantages of the SCAR like the improved bolt, self sealing action, foldable stock, or adjustable gas block.

As for the function of the CH, it's simple and works. By way of comparison, the F2000 has a non-reciprocating CH. But that design uses ~5 parts and 2 springs to work. What is more important, a CH that always works but reciprocates or a stationary CH that is more delicate. Try kicking a stuck bolt open on any design that uses a non-reciprocating CH.

As far as location, I actually think it's close to perfect. My support hand finds the CH naturally and I can see it in my peripheral vision. I can lock the bolt open if need be easily one handed, I can slap the locked back CH to close the bolt when reloading (CH is a much bigger target than the tiny BHO paddle) and the position of the CH tells me what's going on in the gun w/o having to roll it over and look in the ejection port. Rifle fails to fire: CH is forward= FTFire. CH is to the rear= mag empty, CH is in the middle= FTFeed.

As far as the advantages of having a gas piston go, well, the SCAR's receiver stays wet inside since there isn't hot gas blowing the lube off and drying the mechanism out.

BSW

[C-grunt]

Having shot a real deal SCAR 17 and SCAR 16 CQB I say they don't recoil bad even on full auto.

For 2000 bucks you can buy a Larue OBR 5.56 which is what I'm fancying right now.

[Hit_Factor]

Again, I'm not saying the SCAR is bad, and for those who like it, great. It's a nice rifle. For me, however (and many others, it would seem) the SCAR does not offer an improvement over the AR, especially considering the AR you can get at the SCAR's price point.

Sold a SCAR 16s and went back to a mid length AR when my 3 gun scores dropped. I really wanted to like the SCAR but it didn't give me the results. It felt long, slow to target, heavier and the reciprocating bolt handle was frequently in the wrong place. Almost forgot, the Trigger was horrible and there were few options available (in stock).


Sent by someone using something.

[d2wing]

The DOD trails are over, the M4A1 won over 10 competitors. Also other bolt configurations did not prove to be as good and the standard system.
So far there is no system or configuration that has stood up to military trials as better than the latest Mil-spec M4A1. This info is from a military newsletter.
No comment on trusting the Government.

[SkinnyGrey]

The DOD trails are over, the M4A1 won over 10 competitors. Also other bolt configurations did not prove to be as good and the standard system.
So far there is no system or configuration that has stood up to military trials as better than the latest Mil-spec M4A1.

Is Remington making that rifle now? If so, are they making one for civilian use? Should I just go with the Colt 6920?

[sirgilligan]

For mud tests, watch Sturmgewehre's channel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sturmgewehre/videos

I went with the SCAR 16. I would like to get the CZ BREN when available.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-805-Bren-a1/

I really wanted to get a LWRC but couldn't bring myself to getting an AR with "non-standard" parts because the appeal of the AR is the plethora of parts.
Also, I wanted something that has a folding stock.

I had a SIG 556. It is gone now.
I have the SCAR 16S (in black of course because they are more accurate).
Believe it or not, I like my new Mini-14, it is just a hoot.

If I were getting an AR tonight, it would be a Colt or S&W.

[Unka-Boo]

Forgive my first post being in the middle of a thread, BSW linked me here and asked if I had any other input, so I said, WTH and signed up.

I shot his SCAR at our last Practical Rifle match, he was kind enough to let me use it since my new Sig hadn't arrived yet. We went to the general range before the match to check zero with my ammo, three shots @ 50 yds confirmed it was GTG. I went on to take 10th overall for the match ( out of 52, if I remember right )....not bad for using a gun I had exactly three rounds through before I started....

I'm also "lefty capable"..the SCAR was awesome in it's ambi ergos...CH was easily swapped from left to right side, trigger finger easily hit the bolt stop and mag release, safety easily done from both sides. I did find myself forgetting the left side mag release ( too many years of "thumbing" an AR button ), but everything else came natural and I felt right at home.

Here's some vids our friend took:

Stage one, I'm 1st in the vid, 2-300 yard targets shooting off a tire on a barrel ( stable!! )...12 targets, hit all 12 start over weak side, 90 second par.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pzzxh_IoEyM

I took 3rd on this stage...

Stage three, whole mess of bowling pins, shoot from outside to in, alternating sides...30 second par time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66PEB8nwSac&feature=relmfu

Surefire 60 round induced double feed got me 39th on this one...:(


Over all, I really liked the gun, good choice if you have the $$ to spend.

[Oglee]

Until I see the results of the IC competition I would choose a Colt 6921 with the SOPMOD II package.

Throw it in the mud, throw it in some sand, even throw it in some water and it will just keep on running. Give it a little wipe down and some SLIP2000 EWL every 1,000-2,000 rounds and youll never have an issue outside of mags or ammo.

@skinygrey, Remington won the inital bid but colt won the gao protest. Alparently remington beat colt by $30 but "forgot" to include royalties which would have made the Colt bid cheaper, so 99% colt will continue making the M4A1.

[Quiet]

Until I see the results of the IC competition I would choose a Colt 6921 with the SOPMOD II package.
That won't be until a few years.

Phase 2 is suppose to end before Q3 2013.

The top three competitors will then move on to Phase 3.

Phase 3 is suppose to end before Q3 2014.

The top performer from Phase 3 will "win" the competition and the other two manufacturers will be given contracts to help mass produce the winning carbine. However, if the "winner" is not a significant improvement over the M-4A1 Carbine, the "winner" will not be adopted and the M-4A1 Carbine will continue to serve.


Phase 2 competitors:
ADCOR BEAR Elite
Beretta ARX-60A2
Colt ACP
FNH FNAC
H&K HK-416A5
Remington ACR

Phase 1 competitors that did not proceed to Phase 2:
KAC SR-16
LWRC M-6A4
Robinson Armament XCR
S&W M&P-4