[Whitey]

After shooting my Springfield XD-9 yesterday, I have decided to "retire" both of my Springfield 1911's. I never thought I'd say that. But, it's just a much better platform in my opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with the 1911, rather the XD is so much easier to field strip, clean, lube, point, shoot, carry, etc. Plus, 10 down and 1 in the pipe is a bit comforting too.

[wally]

Carry a 9mm instead of a 45ACP? no gun is that good!

9mm is great to shoot and ammo is cheap but I'd only carry a 9mm if I couldn't conceal anything bigger, and now that I've a Kahr PM40 no 9mm need apply, unless the Roughbach's are produced in real quantities instead of being another Seecamp-like cult gun.

Most of the time, in this climate, even my Kimber Ultra Carry is too big to conceal well. If I could carry a full size 1911 it'd be my choice!

--wally.

[Mike Irwin]

"Carry a 9mm instead of a 45ACP? no gun is that good!"

My P7PSP is. :)

[Gunner45]

Tell you what, send my you 1911's. I will give them a good home and they won't be relagated to safe queen status. :)

Gunner45

[boo586]

Whitey,

Now you need to buy yourself some of the XD-40 mags for your gun and you will have legal high capacity mags for your 9mm. Yes you can stuff 14 or 15 rounds of 9mm into the XD-40 mags and they are reported to be very reliable with no to just minor tweaking of the feed lips.

Boo586

[MoNsTeR]

rather the XD is so much easier to ... shoot
pity there's no LOL smiley, I got a kick out of that one! :D

[George Hill]

http://www.madogre.com/images/laugh.gif

There you go.

The XD is that good... it really is. They make outstanding EDC weapons. Not a bad choice at all. I am interested in trying out one of these in .45GAP.

For the love of Pete, I can't BELIEVE I actually said that... but it's true.

[HSMITH]

Once I put a decent set of sights on my G22 I feel the same way about it. Some VERY nice custom 1911 and thousands of rounds of ammo now just sit......

My G22 is not easier to shoot than a 1911, not even close. It is along the lines of a DA revolver for ease of shooting, but once you learn how to shoot it boy howdy!!!! I like the additional power, speed of accurate shots and utter reliability of the G22. My 1911 is flawless in function too, but it can't deliver the energy on target anywhere close to as fast as the G22 does.

[OF]

I have to try one of these things. Lots of good reviews out there.

- Gabe

[Sean Smith]

Well, there is no accounting for taste. http://www.madogre.com/images/laugh.gif

[Marshall]

I bought an XD-40 for just this reason! Very happy camper too!

:D

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------
Well, there is no accounting for taste.
---------------------------------------------------

As the man said when the monkey ate the soap.:D

[hillbilly]

Hey Whitey.

Now those safe queen 1911s need a good home with lots of green space so they can run free out in the pasture.

They probably feel pretty jilted and ignored right now. I'd be willing to baby sit them for you while you and your new XD go frolic in the meadows....

hillbilly

[Whitey]

Hillbilly - LMAO!!!

[jercamp45]

Well, I will say the XD appears to be a fine pistol. I rented one to assist in teaching my ladyfriend the joys of shooting(which lead to her purchase of a Kahr PM9 recently). It had a very nice 'feel' superior to any Glock I felt, and was very accurate....I heard they are reliable as well.
Now whereas I might be getting a PM9 to replace the Jay as backup, I will not be replacing the .45 auto's with a Nine...even if I got 'standard capacity' mags that hold twice as much ammo!
But each to their own, I guess
Jercamp45

[Ankeny]

The XD is a great gun, for some folks. I had one and sold it.

[Gunz]

The US Armed forces did put their 1911s to become safe queens, for a while. Then people start to take them out of the safe again and start using them.

What ever you do, do not sell the 1911s. The honeymoon and passion for the new and sexy XDs will fade, and the 1911 will prove itself to be a classic and timeless companion.

Of course, I only shoot FMJ through all of mine. The 9mm has a great place in the collection and usage functions. I keep going back to big bore revolvers and thin-framed autoloaders.

[Joshua Hutchison]

:( Poor 1911's........

[nero45acp]

I got rid of my 1911's after buying a SIG 225 and a Beretta 92FS Vertec. I was sick and tired of spending almost a grand on a 1911 and then having to fiddle-fart around with it to make it function reliably (usually tuning the extractor). As for the SIG and Beretta; well made, accurate, and stone cold reliable right out of the box!!



nero45acp
(now nero9mm)

[Rob96]

Posted by HSMITH
My 1911 is flawless in function too, but it can't deliver the energy on target anywhere close to as fast as the G22 does.

Load your 1911 up with some 45acp Corbon Pow'R Ball. You will have more energy.

[HSMITH]

Load your 1911 up with some 45acp Corbon Pow'R Ball. You will have more energy.

Negative. My 40 loads make 675 lb/ft of energy at the muzzle every time it goes bang, no 45 acp load is going to get close to that, not even +P handloads. The G22 also is far faster for me to shoot, mainly due to the cyclic rate and not waiting on the slide to close.

[Ankeny]

Uh oh, better get those hip boots out.

[Tamara]

Whatever bastes your turkey. :scrutiny:


The G22 also is far faster for me to shoot, mainly due to the cyclic rate and not waiting on the slide to close.

The above, however, was just chucklesome. :D

[StuporDave]

:scrutiny:

[JohnKSa]

No human has reflexes fast enough to pull the trigger on a gun anywhere near the cyclic rate of a typical auto pistol.

The full auto version of a typical auto pistol cycles at somewhere near 600rpm.

Let's say that the 1911 is much slower than that--say 420rpm. I think that's ridiculously slow, you'd have to have a pretty heavy slide to get the rate that slow.

420rpm works out to 7 rounds per second.

Maybe you CAN pull the trigger that fast--there have been a couple of people in history that have come close--but even if that's the case, I seriously doubt that you've ever had to "wait for the slide to close" to pull the trigger.

[BluesBear]

JohnSka said;
No human has reflexes fast enough to pull the trigger on a gun anywhere near the cyclic rate of a typical auto pistol.
You are CORRECT Sir!


My Father bought a brand new .45 Colt Commander around 1950. The instruction sheet that came with it stated that you could fire it 5 times a second. Now that's only 300RPM but I have never been able to pull the trigger in any 1911 pattern pistol faster than it could fire. Nor have I ever met or even heard of anyone who could.

Unless you've been down to see Mr Goodwrench and bought a set of Monroe Shocks and placed them inside your Ronco Shrink-o-matic and then had them installed one in your 1911 for super slowmo functioning...
You ain't gonna have to wait for the slide to close.
:scrutiny: :rolleyes: :uhoh: :banghead:

[Son of John]

Wasn't Springfield going to put the XD out in .45ACP? This would make a pretty good gun if you could get the 5" barrel. With the grip safety of the XD and the SA trigger you would have.....Hey

something almost like a 1911 !

:D

No kidding, I would like to have one of these pistols in any caliber. But to be completely honest I would like to have all pistols in all calibers.

[HSMITH]

.14 splits are common. .11 is possible with some work and .10 has been recorded MANY times and is not real reason to get wound up. A STOCK 1911 won't get anywhere near .11, more like .17-.2 seconds.

If YOU can't do it please don't be ignorant enough to tell someone else it isn't possible, it just shows how ignorant you in fact are. It amazes me that some of the supposed "authorities" have no clue on some subjects but it never stops them from posting. Well, when the tide goes out it is plain to see who is swimming naked, isn't it?

If you don't believe me fine, talk to the three gunners and the IPSC shooters. The only thing I have on file right now is THIS (http://www.winchester-guns.com/sx2_practical.htm) article on shotguns. Sheesh, Ed McGivern shot 5 shots from a &^$$ REVOLVER in 9/20ths of a second! FULL stroke DOUBLE ACTION, .09 or so splits. Probably a waste of breath, but at least the truth is out.

[BluesBear]

HSMITH, since I (and others) are so ignorant and you are so bloody smart, show me (us), anyone, anywhere who has proved that they can pull a trigger faster than a full size Colt .45 Automatic can keep up with.

Forget split times. Forget hypothetical cyclic rates of fire. Show us anyone who can do it.

Put up or shut up. Either will suit me fine.


And speaking of intelligent pontification.
What kind of load in a .40 have you found (COUGHimaginedCOUGH that produces 675ft/lbs of energy? I can't find any commercial 10mm load that breaks 600.

[Coltdriver]

I have to agree with you. I fired thousands of rounds through my 1911's but after I got an H&K USP in .45 my 1911's became safe queens then they became the basis for the purchase of new guns. I still have a few and I am selling them off slowly.

They were great for learning about pistols and getting to work on a timeless design. Everyone should own at least one at some time in their life.

But compared to a truly modern gun like an H&K they do show their age.

Not a thing wrong with them, just that for my use the more modern designs are better.

[Boats]

Yep them "modern designs" rule. I just hate it when this happens to my 1911s:
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=817113
Oh wait, I 've never seen this happen to any 1911.

[Slowhand]

On page 23 of The Gun Digest Book of the 1911, Patrick Sweeney says:

"I have been nearby on three different occaisons when a 1911 'ran away'. That is, something went wrong and it emptied it's magazine in one burst. The sound is faster than the fastest machinegun I've heard, at 1,200 rpm. Even with the fastest shooters, the 1911 is spending most of it's time waiting for you to get your trigger finger in gear, and shoot the next shot."

I think a 0.17-0.20 sounds pretty slow for a stock 1911. I can just about do 0.20 with a stock 1911 on a close target (usually around 0.23) and I don't have the impression I'm getting anywhere near the limit of the gun. The hard part for me is getting the front sight back on target.

[BluesBear]

Coltdriver, do you have any other blued Colts in your safe that need a new home?

[Master Blaster]

No human has reflexes fast enough to pull the trigger on a gun anywhere near the cyclic rate of a typical auto pistol.

Thats why Jerry Miculek set the speed shooting record with a


SMITH AND WESSON REVOLVER.

Sorry there are a couple of Humans who can pull the trigger faster than the 1911 or any other auto pistol can cycle and hit the target everytime too.

[McNutt]

I'm not going to try and debate whether or not a man is faster than his gun because I have absolutely no idea. But I am curious as to why anybody would consider a gun's cyclical speed when purchasing it for anything other than world-record speed shooting attempts. I can't imagine a 1911 not being fast enough for anybody. It might be, but it would be interesting to see what that person is trying to do with his gun.

[HSMITH]

Blues Bear, since you called me a liar and not the other way around the burden of proof is on you. It's not like you would believe what I told you anyway. I would suggest you call some 1911 gurus that you would believe, maybe send some competitive shooters an email. This has been covered in the past and on several websites. You go figure it out, I'm not in the habit of calling another man a liar because I can't do what he said he can and I'm not going to waste another second educating you on this subject.

[Rob96]

What kind of load in a .40 have you found (COUGHimaginedCOUGH that produces 675ft/lbs of energy? I can't find any commercial 10mm load that breaks 600

I was wondering this very thing myself.:confused: I troied finding factory load data that would support this, but not even Corbon hits that energy level. Don't give me handload stats, as there is no way to verify that.

[Sean Smith]

There is no .40 S&W factory ammo that will give you 600 ft-lbs from a Glock 22. It doesn't exist. In factory ammo in .40 S&W, 500 is very hot. He no doubt has his own handloads that haven't blown his gun up yet, and so are "safe." :scrutiny:

[Whitey]

I think my thread was hijacked. :D

[DrDremel]

Pistols firing at full auto rates are usually 1100-1400 rpm depending on the pistol and the caliber. 1911s that are full-auto fire at at least 1100 rpm. At that speed, if two rounds are in the gun when you fire it, it will be hard to tell if it was one or two from the noise and in some cases the recoil as well.

[Marshall]

Sorry, it's long. Maybe helpful though. I realize this is Winchester Ammo only but, it can be used as a guide.

BOLD = Muzzle Energy

40 S&W S401 165 4 Supreme Expansion Technology PP 1130 1041 977 468 397 349


40 S&W S40 180 4.00 Supreme Expansion Technology PP 1010 9540 909 408 364 330


40 S&W X40SWSTHP 155 4.00 Silvertip Hollow Point PP 1205 1096 1018 500 414 357


40 S&W USA40SW 165 - Full Metal Jacket-Flat Nose - 1060 1001 - 412 367 -

40 S&W WC401 165 - Brass Enclosed Base - 1130 1054 - 468 407 -


40 S&W WC402 180 - Brass Enclosed Base - 990 943 - 392 356 -


40 S&W Q4238 180 - Full Metal Jacket T 990 936 - 390 350 -


40 S&W USA40JHP 180 - Jacketed Hollow Point - 1010 954 - 408 364 -


10mm

10mm Automatic X10MMSTHP 175 5.50 Silvertip Hollow Point PP 1290 1141 1037 649 506 418

[nero45acp]

ZZZZZ ZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZ:rolleyes:

[Whitey]

Not only hijacked, but de-railed also! :cuss: :)

[HSMITH]

Whitey, I apologize for your thread getting hijacked even though it wasn't my fault.

He no doubt has his own handloads that haven't blown his gun up yet, and so are "safe."

Sean, we have gone over this in the past. Since you undoubtedly know more than the entire ballistics lab at Hodgdon powder why don't you enlighten us as to how my loads are unsafe? I'm among the most curious to know how you come about such enlightening data that a ballistics labratory replete with pressure barrels and all does not.

Rob, they are handloads, right out of the Hodgdon data. Data that has not changed in over 4 years, and that Hodgdon will support in writing if you send them an email. Look at the Longshot loads for the Nosler 135 grain bullet.

FYI, the cyclic rate of fire for a 1911 is nowhere near 1100, it is more like 300-350. Timing plays a part in it but that is another subject all together.

[Ky Larry]

Could someone please tell me why I should give a sh** about the cyclic rate of a 1911-type pistol? What ever it is, it's obviously faster than I can get back on target so why is it important in the real world. Thank you.

[tommytrauma]

Wow. I wonder if this was the type of exchange Al Gore pictured when he invented the internet.



Whitey, I went through pretty much the same experience. Bought a SA 1911 compact, tuned it perfectly, spent bucks on a handfull of wilson mags for it, ordered a nice holster... I was set. Then, while browsing at the local fun store, I picked up a XD. Now my 1911 sits in the gun locker.

[Whitey]

TT, it sounds like we share the EXACT same story. I too bought a SA Compact. Bought a Sparks holster, a mag pouch, belt, etc. Once I put that XD in my hand I was sold. I'll probably buy the XD-45 when it comes out too. :)

[Tamara]

Oh wait, I 've never seen this happen to any 1911.

You need to shoot them more, then.

(Incidentally, wooden grips tend to leave unpleasant splinters in your hand when you have a nasty case failure... ;) )


I love 1911's, too. I sold all my other autopistols (Glock, SIG, Browning, HK, Beretta, et cetera) to buy more of them, but let's not get carried away, okay?

(PS: Have you ever heard of "Superface"? ;) )

[Tamara]

FYI, the cyclic rate of fire for a 1911 is nowhere near 1100, it is more like 300-350.

Spoken like someone who's never had an out-of-spec disconnector.

(NOTE: Round three usually winds up in the ceiling. Try and let go before round four or five, since by then there's a good chance that the bore has swung dangerously close to 180*. :uhoh: )

[HSMITH]

Uhhh Tamara, been there and done that. Might have even been on purpose the second time if that weren't illegal...
It isn't that hard to control. Sheesh, if the disconnector is that far out of whack you will blow a case web out long before the cyclic rate jumps up more than 50 rounds per minute. FYI, I have built more than a couple 1911's from bare frames up, and played with combinations that are probably plainly unhealthy. I honestly don't know what the total count is, easily 15 and probably 20 different 1911's in the last 10 years I have had. I'm NOT guessing.......

You are right about the wood grips though, NASTY splinters.....

[McNutt]

HSMITH, I am still curious as to what kind of shooting you do. Why do you shoot so fast that the 1911 is too slow? I'm not trying to argue about anything, I really am interested. Thanks.

[Tamara]

FYI, I have built more than a couple 1911's from bare frames up, and played with combinations that are probably plainly unhealthy. I honestly don't know what the total count is, easily 15 and probably 20 different 1911's in the last 10 years I have had.

Not sure myself, either. Only own ten of 'em at the moment, though... (I'd be willing to bet money on the cyclic rate being considerably higher than 300-350. A twelve pack of your favorite brew says it's in the same 700+ range that every other full auto pistol runs, from the 951S to the 93R to the Stechkin to the G18... I'm searching FM23-35, Kuhnhausen, and Simpson now, but I'll have access to more at work tomorrow...)

[HSMITH]

McNutt, close targets, 7 yards and in putting 2-4 rounds in the COM. I can't make good hits after the first two past 7 yards.

Tamara, I'll go 450 rounds per minute and bet that brew.

[nero45acp]

Uh-ooh, the Feds are coming!! Something about a hijacking..........:what:

[Ankeny]

Oh for crying out loud. I really do regret making the hip boot comment. I was just snickering out loud because I have never seen a competition shooter who had to wait on a 1911 pattern pistol. Switching to a Glock just hit the old funny bone.

A STOCK 1911 won't get anywhere near .11, more like .17-.2 seconds.

Splits aren't as important as transitions in IPSC shooting (world class shooters have won countless stages with .18-.22 splits), but it would suck to yank the trigger and have the slide in the process of cycling so in a fashion they are important from a mechanical perspective.

I have worked with shooters who suffer from trigger freeze when they try to go fast and they would swear the gun couldn't keep up but the real problem was they didn't reset the trigger. I am no Matt Burkett, Todd Jarret, or HSMITH, but I do shoot fairly quick splits. As anyone who has seen me shoot can attest, I shoot a lot splits in the .12-.14 range. I have recorded many splits of .10-.11 in matches and while shooting various drills, and I have done them in the .08 range from trigger bounce. All with a 1911 or 2011 style pistol. That ability was developed as a by product of curing trigger freeze and it really has no real world value other than bragging rights. Enough said.

Having said all of that, I have shot some 9mm pistols of the 1911 variety with wimpy gamer loads and I did notice the gun seemed very sluggish especially with heavy bullets. I still didn't need to wait on the slide.

HSMITH:

I think 450 is on the low end. That would work out to .13 splits. As for the guys who doubt your ability to out run the gun, why don't you just post your USPSA number? We can all go look up your classifier performance and that will prove your point.

[Boats]

I have shot and seen shot many a 1911. I was talking more about the entire right rear portion of the receiver being blown away than whatever happened to the grip portion of the HK. Never seen that kind of frame damage on a 1911.

Nonetheless, none of my 1911s currently sport wooden grips. One CT, one Alumagrip, two Hogue monogrips.:D I'll run the risk of aluminum or rubber splinters rather than chance a handful of plastic shards thank you. :evil:

[Correia]

You asked for comp guys. :) On a good day I run around .25 spilts for normal shooting, (of course that number goes up dramatically depending on how far away the targets are!) for blaze away short stages I've clocked down in the .12 - .15 range. To my knowledge I have not ever gone any faster than that.

Even at that I've not been aware of any competition shooter in any sort of practical competition who could outrun their gun, whether it be a 1911 or a Glock. I'm in agreement with Ankeny in that the only people I'm aware of who have claimed to do it were actually trying too hard and not resetting their triggers.

Sorry HS, I would have to see it to believe it. I know in flat out speed demos the McGiverns and Miculeks of the world can do it, however those were speed demos and not any sort of practical accuracy test. Once you throw in transitions and variable targets then I think it is kind of a moot point. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I would have to be there to watch. :)

Back to the original topic, I like the XD, it is a nice gun.

[Roger Williams]

I am totally avoiding the 1911 cyclic speed thread hijack thing...

I recently bought an XD9. It is an EXCELLENT handgun. It is accurate, durable, reliable, and it is extremely easy to take down for cleaning. I like it almost as much as my CZ75B. In fact, I may like it equally as much! I just need to put more rounds downrange to make that decision. I've only put 150 through it so far.... but so far, so good.

ok, back to the "outrunning my 1911, such-and-so ft. lbs. out of my .40, why, that's impossible!" crapolafest.

[artherd]

Sorry, I'm going to have to raise the big BS flag.

http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiessen...hsp/tanfrep.mpg
http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiessen...glock18_cut.mpg

67 frames for complete cycle - 38 super? (edit, this may be a BHP, barrel disconnects. You're still full of ????.)

50 for complete cycle Glock G-18 known benchmark at somewhere (possibly way) in excess of 1200 RPM.

67/50=1.34.

1200/1.34 = ~895 rounds/min for the 1911.

So you are claiming you can shoot in excess of 15 rounds/SECOND out of your pistol. mmmmkay...


Oh yeah, the 1911 is great, but a Glock still makes a better carry weapon. I like the Kimbers I have shot however. They do require some upkeep.

[BluesBear]

artherd, be careful what you say.

Someone just might proclaim that you are ignorant and then accuse YOU of calling THEM a liar. :rolleyes:

But since that has already happened to me I can say I (and probably a few others) agree with you.

[Chuck Jennings]

Yeah, I think the XD9 is pretty snazzy. It is probably going to be my next purchase. (My first plastic gun too!) It is especially attractive due to the price and the availability of th XD40 mags. I will probably get one of the lights too.


I am a big fan of 1911, and they are my favorites. However, the XD9 seems like a fun "tactical" pistol that will be a welcome addition to my family of 1911s, BHPs, and revolvers.