Competition pistol shooting?


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Infidel4life11
October 27, 2012, 10:20 PM
Ok so one of my advanced MP instructors also does competition shooting and I'm wanting to get into it. I don't know what 4 letter governing body yet, I want to do it with a glock 9mm. There seems to be a few match in the MO area. My question to you guys should I get a glock and build it myself for competition or should I buy one already built. Should I go 17 or 34?

Thanks

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56hawk
October 27, 2012, 10:41 PM
First you need to figure out which competitions you are going to be shooting. The rules can be pretty specific about what guns and modifications are legal. It can also put you in a different class depending on what gun you shoot.

9mm can also be a bad choice depending on which competitions you will be doing.

Infidel4life11
October 28, 2012, 11:45 AM
Thank you

creeper1956
October 28, 2012, 12:03 PM
My question to you guys should I get a glock and build it myself for competition or should I buy one already built. Should I go 17 or 34?
As already stated, you first need to find out what governing body, and what class within that governing body you want to start shooting in.

I don't know what your finances are, but if they are typical (what's "typical" these days anyway?), you probably want to start in a limited or stock class. What guns are allowed, with what mods if any? Another thing to consider is who are you? Are you doing this for fun, for structured training or because you have a competitive streak that needs to be satisfied... or all three?

Personally, as an engineer and machinist (retired) I like to build guns... a big part of the fun for me. So I tend to look at base guns that have the most potential for DIY modification.

Cheers,
C

Sam1911
October 28, 2012, 12:11 PM
Most of the competition you'll commonly have the opportunity to participate in these days will be USPSA and IDPA. A Glock 17 or 34 will be very competitive in either.

Don't worry too much about modifications. You're new to the scene and will have plenty of room for development and improvement as you learn the sport and work on your gun-handling, before you need to concern yourself over what modifications might shave the last few tenths and hundredths off your time.

As 56Hawk said, there are several different divisions in each version of the "Practical/Action" shooting sports and a 9mm Glock fits into several of them, depending on what mods you eventually decide to do. With a basic un- (or "lightly-") modified gun you'll shoot in "Stock Service Pistol" in IDPA and in "Production" in USPSA.

I'd hold off making changes until you've got at least 10,000 rds. downrange in competition. By then you'll have a much more developed skill set, and you'll be familiar enough with the tweaks people use to decide for yourself what might make things easier and faster for you.

Infidel4life11
October 28, 2012, 12:14 PM
USPSA, IDPA and there is some steel shooting, it all local stuff I won't be traveling around. I want to do this this for all 3 reasons, I love to shoot, I'd like to get better, and I enjoy competition. As for budget I'd like to stay below $1500. Thank you

Infidel4life11
October 28, 2012, 12:36 PM
Most of the competition you'll commonly have the opportunity to participate in these days will be USPSA and IDPA. A Glock 17 or 34 will be very competitive in either.

Don't worry too much about modifications. You're new to the scene and will have plenty of room for development and improvement as you learn the sport and work on your gun-handling, before you need to concern yourself over what modifications might shave the last few tenths and hundredths off your time.

As 56Hawk said, there are several different divisions in each version of the "Practical/Action" shooting sports and a 9mm Glock fits into several of them, depending on what mods you eventually decide to do. With a basic un- (or "lightly-") modified gun you'll shoot in "Stock Service Pistol" in IDPA and in "Production" in USPSA.

I'd hold off making changes until you've got at least 10,000 rds. downrange in competition. By then you'll have a much more developed skill set, and you'll be familiar enough with the tweaks people use to decide for yourself what might make things easier and faster for you.
thanks

56hawk
October 28, 2012, 01:17 PM
In USPSA you basically have three choices; production, limited and open.

Production is the most restrictive on equipment but the cheapest to start out with. Basically there is an approved list of guns and you can't make any modifications. You are also limited to loading only ten rounds in the magazine. This is all setup to make it easy for a new shooter to be competitive.

Limited class is more open to modifications and allows you to use better holsters and bigger magazines. 40 caliber and up can score higher, so 9mm is at a disadvantage.

Open class is very unrestricted. Guns can have red dot sights, barrel porting and compensators. This class gets pretty expensive though and most guns are custom built. 9mm works here but needs to be loaded really hot to be competitive.

jmorris
October 28, 2012, 03:37 PM
Get a 34, 4-6 mags a comp-tac speed paddle and mag pouches. You'll be in your budget and good for USPSA and other gun games including IDPA, once you get a fishing vest.

Infidel4life11
October 29, 2012, 02:09 PM
Good deal thanks for the info. Does everyone agree on the glock 34

Jim Watson
October 29, 2012, 02:38 PM
For IDPA SSP (Stock Service Pistol) and USPSA Production, the G34 will be hard to beat.
You don't actually need anything done to it, although a trigger job and fibre optic front/black rear sights are popular modifications.
One or another Kydex holster and mag carriers (two for IDPA, five for USPSA) are pretty well standard. Include a good belt to carry the load and you are done.

If you are a proficient handloader, a G35 would work well. Light loaded .40 is good for SSP and Production but you can also go to full power for Major Power Factor and get in USPSA Limited for no added cost.

waktasz
October 29, 2012, 07:44 PM
If I could only have one gun it would be a Glock 35.

I actually don't own any 9mm anymore because I like my 35 so much. I use it for IDPA and USPSA production using minor ammo. I shoot my 24 with major in USPSA Limited division and my 35 is my backup for that. For mods to my 35 I have a connector, a polish job and a 4lb trigger spring. My trigger is 34oz. That's all you need and it cost maybe $30 for everything needed to get there.

PowderMonkey
October 29, 2012, 08:01 PM
In USPSA <snip> Production is the most restrictive on equipment but the cheapest to start out with. Basically there is an approved list of guns and you can't make any modifications.

Maybe you were just keeping it simple for the guy - but you could not be more wrong...

twofifty
October 29, 2012, 08:56 PM
Ok then, if he's completely wrong don't leave the OP in a cloud of confusion...so tell us what mods are allowed in USPSA Production Div.

PowderMonkey
October 29, 2012, 09:39 PM
Ok then, if he's completely wrong don't leave the OP in a cloud of confusion...so tell us what mods are allowed in USPSA Production Div.

Geez I gave the poster I quoted the benfit of the doubt - I gave him the out on 'keeping it simple for the new guy'... Are you really gonna push me on this??

To keep it simple for you, I'll give you these two bullet points.

* If the firearm appears stock externally when the firearm is sitting on a table, IN BATTERY, you are G2G.

* Beyond that - as defined in USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition in Appendix D4

My FULLY PRODUCTION LEGAL XDm 5.25 certainly is no where near 'stock' and it's 100% legal at any USPSA sanctioned level 2 match.

twofifty
October 29, 2012, 09:54 PM
There you go, now the OP and I have a reference to look up.
Good job.

PowderMonkey
October 29, 2012, 09:58 PM
There you go, now the OP and I have a reference to look up.
Good job.
That is way more civil of a response than I was expecting. : )

And here you thought I was blowin smoke. ; )

jim243
October 29, 2012, 10:11 PM
Both IDPA and USPSA have websites with downloadable rule books. You can research what is and not allowed, from the horses mouth so to speak.
Jim

http://www.idpa.com/dps_info.asp

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/

56hawk
October 30, 2012, 12:16 AM
Maybe you were just keeping it simple for the guy - but you could not be more wrong...

I just figured the allowed modifications weren't worth mentioning. I shoot open class so I don't have to worry about it. :)

Infidel4life11
October 30, 2012, 02:11 AM
Haha, thanks y'all.

PowderMonkey
October 30, 2012, 07:56 AM
Open rigs are like cheating! : ) j/k

Plus I sooo enjoy fumbling around with reloads every few seconds. (not)

I'm newb sauce and I'm staying in production until I get a B rank or so. Still a U.

Hit_Factor
October 30, 2012, 08:32 AM
In USPSA you basically have three choices; production, limited and open.

Production is the most restrictive on equipment but the cheapest to start out with. Basically there is an approved list of guns and you can't make any modifications. You are also limited to loading only ten rounds in the magazine. This is all setup to make it easy for a new shooter to be competitive.



You may make some modifications to production division guns. The rule book spells them out in detail. Trigger work is OK. Changing sights is OK. Most modifications that change the appearance of the firearm are prohibited.

mgmorden
October 30, 2012, 04:54 PM
You may make some modifications to production division guns. The rule book spells them out in detail. Trigger work is OK. Changing sights is OK. Most modifications that change the appearance of the firearm are prohibited.

Even that isn't really true. A gripping aid (ie texturing and a change in surface) is a no-go outside of the approved afreas, but you can apply any external finish you like.

Aside from that you're also good to go to replace any internal part with an aftermarket version and external parts on approval (barrels and sights mostly).

So if you wanted you could take a Glock, have a camo duracoat applied, chrome the slide, replace the barrel and sights, replace all the action parts (except for the trigger itself), and add a grip-sleeve, and you're STILL production legal.

In reality, it's more the ban on single-action guns (keeps 1911's out) and the universal minor scoring (makes 9mm the optimal round) that keeps Production as the budget division.

You really can get away with a LOT of tweaking in Production. Can't say that's a bad thing either. I like it, as do most other shooters. If they made it a "stock-only" division all you'd end up doing is driving people to more expensive guns that come in a better stock config. Having the option to be competitive with with a $500 Glock + $250 in upgrades is better than making everything "full stock" where all the top shooters are shooting "stock" $1200 CZ-75 Shadows.

Hit_Factor
October 30, 2012, 06:16 PM
Thats a much better answer than I gave. I was trying to keep it simple, there were other responses given that were not correct. I'm a former MD and current CRO/multigun and deputy section coordinator, so i try to keep it simple for a new competitor. They usually have enough on their minds the first couple of matches building the up a gun for a division usually comes later, after talking to shooters they meet at matches.

jmorris
October 30, 2012, 06:45 PM
Read the rules pretty close when you make changes (I would suggest none at first). Watched a guy at area 4 get moved into open division because he had grip tape on the slide, he didn't win his class.

Infidel4life11
October 30, 2012, 09:40 PM
Awesome yall thanks again. BTW is there anyone running a M&P pro 9 in these types of competitions? If so how are they holding up.

waktasz
October 31, 2012, 01:24 AM
They are probably the #2 most popular gun shot in Production division in USPSA, and possibly the #3 most popular in IDPA, behind Glock and 1911s as a whole.

I had one and did not have good luck with it in terms of reliability but I know others than run them and seem to like them. There have been reported issues of a lack of accuracy with certain M&Ps as well, but S&W seems to have always tried to make it right for those users that experienced that problem.

Sam1911
October 31, 2012, 07:06 AM
I would like to say the M&Ps are absolutely fantastic. I shot my best classifer score ever with an M&P I'd just borrowed from a pal. They're very nice to shoot.

Unfortunately, the collection of recurring problems MANY of my upper-level competitor friends have experienced with them has driven quite a few of them away from them.

There's a common failure to extract issue. There are workarounds like aftermarket extractors and stronger springs, but maddeningly, that does not always solve the problem -- or solves it for a few days, weeks, or months only to have it inexplicably return.

There's also a light primer strikes problem which affects some guns. Again, stronger springs, polish this, polish that...and it might get better for a while.

I've got one pal who's bought and sold five M&Ps and is now sworn off the platform "forever" ...again.

I know five or six Expert/Master/"A" type shooters who've experienced these issues and ended up returning guns to S&W multiple times, dropping in better parts, and ditching the platform anyway.

This is more hard to take in that the group I shoot with is very local to (and shoots regularly with) one of the main M&P gunsmiths (Burwell), so if they can't keep the gun running, that's telling. In fact, I worked the PA States IDPA match at Dan Burwell's home club earlier this month, and this was a returning topic of conversation -- punctuated by the fact that several M&P pistols had these familiar malfunctions during the match!

I really do like those guns, but I'm not buying one. Don't know what it will take for S&W to get them ALL to work right in the long-term, but they've had plenty of time and they aren't there yet.

Jim Watson
October 31, 2012, 10:15 AM
I fared better. My Plastic M&P shot reliably in stock form before I sent it to Mr Burwell and has continued to since it came back, in spite of an infortunate interlude when the house burned down over it. Yes, Melonited stainless steel CAN be rusted by fumes and water. But it cleaned up adequately with only some loss of color, hardly any pitting.

Neec0
November 1, 2012, 02:36 PM
What of XD's? I prefer the XD over the Glock at this time, and would also like to begin looking into competition shooting.

waktasz
November 1, 2012, 02:51 PM
The only person who shoots one is Robbie, because they pay him. That probably means something.

Neec0
November 1, 2012, 02:51 PM
I assume you were reffering to my comment. Good to know. Thanks.

waktasz
November 1, 2012, 03:00 PM
That being said, I'm sure it would take you a long way if that's what you have and what you want to use. I have a few friends with them and they seem to like them. I don't really, but that's because I'm a Glock user.

Neec0
November 1, 2012, 03:05 PM
I like Chevy over Dodge and Dodge over Ford. But I would drive whatever got me to my destination.

Infidel4life11
November 1, 2012, 03:57 PM
I bought a ton of xd's one in just about every model. When I first got my hands on a tactical 9mm on a OD Frame, it was barely used with night sights and a "match grade" barrel. It was one of the most accurate pistols I've ever shoot.

coolluke01
November 1, 2012, 06:11 PM
I shoot the G34 for IDPA, USPSA and Steel action.

I love the 9mm and the G34 tames it really well. I think this whole major/minor USPSA thing is crap. It's unnecessary and stupid.

I shoot limited with my stock G34 because the others I know shoot limited.

If I was you, I would get the 34 and shoot production for USPSA. For IDPA and Steel you will have the best gun for what you are doing.

I'm looking at ZEV Triggers right now, and Warren Sevegny sights. Shoot a year or so and then start buying goodies.

A good belt is a must! A wilson tactical is nice and cheap and is infinitely adjustable.

Ankeny
November 2, 2012, 10:56 AM
I think this whole major/minor USPSA thing is crap. It's unnecessary and stupid. Wow. I would dare say you are in the minority opinion on that one. ;)

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 11:05 AM
It's just a ploy to get the .40 in wider use.

My friends who shoot USPSA like it more than IDPA because it has less rules and is faster paced. Why not let people shoot the best caliber they can? I understand and see the fun in having a Heavy division with .45's. But why penilize someone for being smart and shooting cheaper and easier to shoot 9's?

Fight the system!! ;) get the g34!

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 11:07 AM
Because exactly what you said...9mm is easier to shoot than major .40 or .45 ammo, so it earns less points on target. Unless of course you shoot all A's.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 11:28 AM
If you want different divisions that's one thing. But to penilize 9mm shooters is just plain dumb.

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 11:42 AM
If you scored 9mm the same as .40 and .45, then you'd be penalizing the people who shoot major.

Hit_Factor
November 2, 2012, 11:45 AM
9mm shooters are not penalized. They compete in a division and are only compared to others in that division abiding by the same rules.

An unfair system would force production shooters to compete with open shooters.

Additionally, there are classifications for each division. Winners of a classification are also recognized at matches above level 1.

USPSA rules may not be perfect, but they generally make sense in this regard.

I'm not familiar enough with IPDA rules to comment on them, my scores prove it.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 12:32 PM
Not penalized? A 9mm hole and a .40 hole in the same place on a target (with the exception of A zone) are scored differently. It would be the same thing as scoring a basket in basketball differently if you swish it or bank it in. They were both shot from the same place and in the same place, they should be scored the same.

If they had a .40 division almost no one would shoot in it. Less than those that shoot in the heavy division (.45)
The only reason it exists is to increase the proliferation of the .40!

An unfair system would force production shooters to compete with open shooters.
That would be unfair, and they don't because they want to discourage shooters who don't have the money to spend on the open guns.
But this is not the same as the difference between 9mm and .40. Production gun $500-600 Open gun $3000-7000! That makes sense.

Not counting my hits the same as another in the same division hardly makes sense. They don't break down the limited division into 9mm and .40 categories for competing and ranking.

If you scored 9mm the same as .40 and .45, then you'd be penalizing the people who shoot major.
No you would be penalizing people who are stupid and don't play the game the best way. They make a .45 division because some people like to shoot the .45 more. I don't know anyone who would rather compete with the .40 over 9mm if the scoring was even. If I'm wrong then they would have enough people for a .40 only division. Which they don't!

Hit_Factor
November 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
They don't break down the limited division into 9mm and .40 categories for competing and ranking.


That's pretty much the difference between minor and major power factors. Effectively it is broken down into 'categories'.

Minor is clearly easier to shoot than major.

Generally, .40 major is not competitive in production and 9mm minor is not competitive in limited or L-10.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 01:00 PM
Effectively it is broken down into 'categories'.
While there are allowances for shooting major and minor in the limited division they are scored differently but ranked together. If I'm not mistaken. That means a B run with .40 beats a B run with 9mm. And in national rankings there is no different scoring class.

It just kinda sucks to build a gun you like for IDPA and steel shooting and then be scored as a 2nd class citizen when you shoot USPSA. USPSA is getting into regulating 3 Gun and they don't have this major/minor BS. They do have a heavy division for .45's and .308's. Everything else is shoot what you have.

tarakian
November 2, 2012, 01:03 PM
You can shoot 9mm in major, or .38 Super, or .357 SIG, or .45 GAP, or 10mm. There are lots of choices other than .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 01:07 PM
Can we just all agree that coolluke is a know nothing whiner and carry on without him?

The point is, the rules allow weaker ammo to compete side by side with more heavily recoiling ammo, and the trade off is that you get less points for a non-A zone hit. Based on that, nearly everyone decides to shoot the harsher ammo because they get more points. USPSA's motto is "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" "Accuracy - Power - Speed". Power factor is not going to go away from the scoring, ever. If you don't like it, quit.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 01:12 PM
I know there are other options for major other than .40.
There's no point in shooting 9mm major as it will be harder to shoot than .40 and it's hard to get a 9mm to shoot major, well.

I guess I wouldn't have a problem if the minor penalty was more realistic. The difference in scoring far out weighs the disadvantage of shooting major over minor. As you said 9mm minor is not competitive in limited

I think both A's and B's should be scored the same.

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 01:22 PM
Write a letter to your area director and convince him to present it to the board then.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 01:31 PM
Can we just all agree that coolluke is a know nothing whiner and carry on without him?
I kinda doubt you will get that consensus. Im simply voicing my displeasure with the scoring system. I'll still shoot minor as I have, but it will limit my desire to shoot USPSA because it's hard to be competitive with the best, although I have little doubt I could beat you. :neener:

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 01:35 PM
It's just funny how you say that 9mm is an advantage, because you can shoot it faster, but don't want to accept the scoring penalty.

coolluke01
November 2, 2012, 01:43 PM
Glad to hear you call it a penalty.

The reason for the penalty is to make major and minor play together at the same level. They have failed! The scoring system is flat out wrong. It should be a toss up. Scores should be weighted in a way that actually reflects the advantage/disadvantage or minor and major.

waktasz
November 2, 2012, 01:45 PM
It's a trade off. You take a scoring penalty in order to be able to shoot a girl's gun in a man's division, the same way race cars take weight penalties in order to run bigger motors. Everything is a trade off. If you aren't happy with what you have to give up, shoot .40.

9mmepiphany
November 2, 2012, 02:52 PM
I think this discussion has moved far away from the OP and has now gotten to a mine is better than yours shouting match.

The discussion and comparisons can be turned either way. The rules are what they are and you make your selection of equipment based on them. Just accept the consequences of your decision and accept that they aren't comparable

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